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Starmer, not up to it? – politicalbetting.com

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810
    IshmaelZ said:

    That is a lovely way to see things but not the way the world works. The best model of government (the sort of government you'd want to live under, anyway) is that of a social contract which we as selfish actors (I'm afraid) enter into with the government. The deal is that they look out for their own population, not of the world in general. This isn't quite as greedy and Hobbesian an outlook as it sounds, because a lot of kinds of altruism actually pay for themselves and because there are strong arguments based on efficient resource allocation which say that net benefits are maximised if countries stick to what they know best; but when the chips are down a government is politically and morally obliged to save its own 40 year olds from a slight risk way before it turns its attention to anyone else's 80 year olds. If it thinks different it can try for election on that basis. Come to think about it Corbyn kinda did, with his overt contempt for the UK's Labour client vote poor at the expense of the Palestinians.
    Normally the case in practice, yes, although I don't go along with the notion that it's either in theory or as a matter of realism the best model possible. Also do not dispute that "sorting ourselves first come what may" is probably a vote winner. Indeed I note that Labour are making such noises in opposition to Truss's more internationalist ones.

    However, leaving aside the ethics, in this case there is self-interest in a collectivist approach to fighting the pandemic. Right now there isn't a choice to be made, since Covid is not under control here, but the time may well come when there is. And if so, imo our approach should not be one of no diversion of supply as long as there remains a single unwillingly unjabbed arm in Blighty.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited January 2021
    Floater said:
    AZN dangerous ineffective shit....but we will have that Russian one that nobody believes their ever changing results or the Chinese ones, one of which not peer reviewed and the other only 50% effective in latest trial.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    For domestic consumption, they clearly think beating down on those uppity UK Brexiteers still delivers.

    It's pretty thin gruel, but let's see if it really does give any cover when the bodies pile up.

    Germany, at least, is having declining cases at least, so the awful situation will not be as impactful on them as some others.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829
    edited January 2021
    DavidL said:

    All the best @Cyclefree. Really all the best.
    Very best to him - you have some massive positive karma on the way Cyclefree!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400

    That is a low bar for the definition of "successful".

    I expect most pb-ers can ease themselves over it.
    Given how many lawyers we have on this board, you may be being optimistic.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180

    You're the second poster to use the analogy, and I think it's apposite. We need to keep going until this country is no longer a Covid factory. That means using vaccination to eliminate the disease, not just take pressure off the death numbers.
    I've never claimed to be original but I really didn't know about the previous usage. But yes. Right now we have a very high level of infection in our community and one of the worst death rates in the world. We need to stop this and we need to stop it right now. Anything other would be a serious dereliction of duty on the part of our government.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829

    AZN dangerous shit....but we will have that Russian one that nobody believes their ever changing results or the Chinese ones, one of which not peer reviewed and the other only 50% effective in latest trial.
    In this instance, it isn't a choice. I don't see how we can blame them for exploring other options. Provided they are satisfied by the safety, any amount of efficacy is good.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited January 2021

    In this instance, it isn't a choice. I don't see how we can blame them for exploring other options. Provided they are satisfied by the safety, any amount of efficacy is good.
    If the German regulator doesn't think there is enough evidence for over 65s using AZN, it will be a whitweash if they find it with the Russian or the non-peer reviewed Chinese one.

    And the other Chinese one at 50% is really borderline.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,689
    I'm guessing that the majority of the population think that the UK should donate vaccines abroad...

    ...just as long as they've had their jabs first.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Although it does also say that you should help children first before putting on your own. Whether you could count other countries as being like children is a debatable point.
    Errr no it categorically does not.

    You help yourself and then you can put one on your child.

    Put one on your child and you pass out before you can put your own on - and nobody can look after your child.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    Tottenham really are a one man team. Without Kane they are very average.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    rcs1000 said:

    Given how many lawyers we have on this board, you may be being optimistic.
    I was set up.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, Husband in Royal Free having tests ....... 😨

    Hopefully, he'll be sent home soon and will spend next few years moaning at me about having ruined his Sunday afternoon. But will take that if it means he's OK.

    Good luck x
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    I presumed, in that tweet, that this extremely senior eurocrat was sensitively worrying about the lack of vaccinations in Africa.

    But no. As far as I can see, he is actually exulting in the fact that the EU has done millions more jabs than Africa, thus proving that the EU is great.

    They are fucking mad. What a repulsive organisation
    Belgium 1, Congo nil?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852
    Note how it's framed by German TV: "When will Europe catch up with Great Britain and the USA?"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    Leon said:

    I presumed, in that tweet, that this extremely senior eurocrat was sensitively worrying about the lack of vaccinations in Africa.

    But no. As far as I can see, he is actually exulting in the fact that the EU has done millions more jabs than Africa, thus proving that the EU is great.

    They are fucking mad. What a repulsive organisation
    Remember, it's wrong to treat Covid like a league table - unttil a point needs to be made.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,553

    In this instance, it isn't a choice. I don't see how we can blame them for exploring other options. Provided they are satisfied by the safety, any amount of efficacy is good.
    Needs must when the Devil drives.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,458

    It's challenging and aggressive in a weedy, wouldn't say boo to a goose in the real world way imo. Gateway drug to telling people to fuck off (only on the internet naturlich) I suspect.
    It makes you flinch when you see it written down. Spoken it reminds me of Diane Abbott rolling her eyes trying to be withering.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    Can we please focus on what Martin Selmayr has just tweeted. Indescribable
  • Charles said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    You describe SKS as a “successful” former DPP. Can you tell us on what basis you are measuring success?

    Not arrested for kerb crawling nor did his tenure require a Royal Commission to correct his errors.

    But in all seriousness he did a great job in dealing with the swift and mass prosecutions of the 2011 rioters.

    He managed the prosecutions of parliamentarians for expense fraud and handled the Chris Huhne prosecution with tact.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    Note how it's framed by German TV: "When will Europe catch up with Great Britain and the USA?"
    My German is a bit rusty, but I think she said that by stealing enough UK vaccines they'll be able to innoculate the upper echelons of the commission in the coming months.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,553

    I'm guessing that the majority of the population think that the UK should donate vaccines abroad...

    ...just as long as they've had their jabs first.

    ...and every member of their family. And their friends. And their neighbours. And their postman. And their bus driver. And their kids' teachers....
  • Pulpstar said:

    I'd quite like to get a jab ta very much @kinabalu.
    Covid has wrecked one friend for a year (He seems to perhaps be recovering a bit now), and killed someone two years younger than me

    100%. I don't mind waiting my turn for the vaccine.

    To be told my turn should be given away completely once we're done vaccinating those older then I simply go without - its repulsive.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    Leon said:

    Can we please focus on what Martin Selmayr has just tweeted. Indescribable

    There was a discussion a few threads back on the appropriateness of Matt Hancock comparing the UK to the EU vaccine program, claiming that somehow that tweet justified the EU's response. I'd like to know their opinion on this one!
  • tlg86 said:

    Tottenham really are a one man team. Without Kane they are very average.

    Plus so boring. Just like watching George Graham's Arsenal teams.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    I presumed, in that tweet, that this extremely senior eurocrat was sensitively worrying about the lack of vaccinations in Africa.

    But no. As far as I can see, he is actually exulting in the fact that the EU has done millions more jabs than Africa, thus proving that the EU is great.
    Given there has been pointing to the UK's death rate as a counter to its good vaccination roll out, presumably he has also compared the rates across Africa. The stats may be a bit more unreliable perhaps.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    kinabalu said:

    Normally the case in practice, yes, although I don't go along with the notion that it's either in theory or as a matter of realism the best model possible. Also do not dispute that "sorting ourselves first come what may" is probably a vote winner. Indeed I note that Labour are making such noises in opposition to Truss's more internationalist ones.

    However, leaving aside the ethics, in this case there is self-interest in a collectivist approach to fighting the pandemic. Right now there isn't a choice to be made, since Covid is not under control here, but the time may well come when there is. And if so, imo our approach should not be one of no diversion of supply as long as there remains a single unwillingly unjabbed arm in Blighty.
    Then why are you shouting at the uk that has done plenty already to assist the rest of the world instead of your pals in the eu that have done everything on the cheap and little to assist the rest of the world....why does your bile all get inflicted on this country for how little we have done even when we have done more than your internationalist comrades?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359
    Perhaps if the EU had paid more into Covax the numbers would be a bit higher?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806
    kle4 said:

    Remember, it's wrong to treat Covid like a league table - unttil a point needs to be made.
    If a British politician tweeted that, they'd probably be forced to resign tomorrow. They would certainly be obliged to make a grovelling apology and delete the tweet.

    But he's a eurocrat, they just sail on and on.


    It's like the last ten days have been scripted by Nigel Farage, and Bill Cash. On acid.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    RobD said:

    Perhaps if the EU had paid more into Covax the numbers would be a bit higher?

    Perhaps if the eu had properly prefunded the setting up of plants ...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd quite like to get a jab ta very much @kinabalu.
    Covid has wrecked one friend for a year (He seems to perhaps be recovering a bit now), and killed someone two years younger than me

    Hope you do, mate. Think you will.
    And I'd quite like to see the end of this dreadful global pandemic.
    Hope you're cool with that too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    Plus so boring. Just like watching George Graham's Arsenal teams.
    One of which won the league on goals scored...
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,924
    edited January 2021
    I wouldn't normally cut and paste but I saw this and couldn't quite believe it. Anyone in Southwark? What a family...

    https://twitter.com/Leo_Pollak/status/1355935952431149069
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    I wouldn't normally cut and paste but I saw this and couldn't quite believe it. Anyone in Southwark?

    https://twitter.com/Leo_Pollak/status/1355935952431149069

    Good lord. There's the microchip theory in the flesh. People actually believe this nonsense?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    kinabalu said:

    Fine, Mark, fine. If you are not up for considering something to the great potential benefit of your party, what can I do but leave it. Happy to.

    @MaxPB agrees with me though. Or at last gets it. He did an excellent post yesterday making a similar (ish) case.

    Only up to an extent, I wouldn't be in favour of giving our spare vaccines to the EU without any commitments made for them to properly fund COVAX to the same level we have. I would also want them to hand over the money to the programme before we allow Pfizer and AZ to redirect our vaccines to the EU scheme.

    Also, @Cyclefree, I saw your objection to the idea, I'll take this opportunity to explain why it would be in our favour to do this and why it isn't going to make any difference to how quickly our scheme will get to everyone under the age of 50.

    Firstly, in April we are going to take delivery of Moderna and Novavax, these plug into the Pfizer and AZ supply chains directly with Moderna requiring a less extreme temperature for storage and transportations and a slightly longer shelf life meaning there won't be as much of an issue with wasted doses. It has the same or better efficacy. To take advantage of both Pfizer and Moderna jabs at the same time we'd need to expand our super-cold logistics chain, this is both time consuming and costly and by the time we get around to it the programme will be done anyway.

    Next, the Novavax vaccine has got 89% overall efficacy and 100% efficacy against death, hospitalisation and severe symptoms. It has very high efficacy against Kent COVID and doesn't require a 12 week gap from first to second jab to reach this high level of protection as the AZ vaccine needs. Using Novavax instead of AZ will actually get us to the end of lockdown faster than using AZ, so as soon as we start receiving volume deliveries in April it needs to be prioritised over AZ for these two reasons (proven high efficacy against Kent COVID and a shorter delta between jabs).

    Between Moderna (6 weeks to full efficacy) and Novavax (4 weeks to full efficacy) we should receive around 4-6m doses per week from April, there are ~30m people in phase 2 (everyone under 50) which means we can get through them and get everyone full two dose immunity by the end of June with this strategy. With AZ we'd need to wait for 12 weeks from first to second jab and then another three weeks to reach full efficacy, so if we give the first under 50s the jab in the first week of April it will be 15 weeks until they can live normally again, if we give them Novavax it's just 4 weeks and Moderna is 6 weeks.

    ...continued...
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    That, I'm sorry to say, is nonsense. You're seeing "society" as the country we live in. I'm seeing it as the world we live in. This is a genuine difference of perception not of morality. I would be wrong to call you immoral to (potentially) want to prioritize a young fit Brit for vaccination over an elderly Greek. Hence why I don't. Likewise you are wrong to call me immoral to want to (potentially) do the opposite.
    My apologies - you've adopted the morality of an extreme anti-nationalist. Although it's clearly not an inflexible morality, since it permits you to take your doses of the vaccine ahead of our putative elderly Greek in order to protect yourself, and instead to give away the doses belonging to other people to signal your virtue at no cost to yourself.

    Because that's the moral thing to do.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796

    My apologies - you've adopted the morality of an extreme anti-nationalist. Although it's clearly not an inflexible morality, since it permits you to take your doses of the vaccine ahead of our putative elderly Greek in order to protect yourself, and instead to give away the doses belonging to other people to signal your virtue.

    Because that's the moral thing to do.
    Easy to give other peoples stuff away
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    edited January 2021

    I wouldn't normally cut and paste but I saw this and couldn't quite believe it. Anyone in Southwark?

    https://twitter.com/Leo_Pollak/status/1355935952431149069

    That looks like a parody - absurd holocaust parallels, link to David Icke, reference to nanochips, it's all about profit for Bill Gates, pushing of alternative treatments.

    If it is real, then free speech is not an issue, people putting that out there will be killing people.

    And how the heck did Piers Corbyn get to be a prominent figure of the absolute lunatics?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219
    kle4 said:

    That looks like a parody - absurd holocaust parallels, link to David Icke, reference to nanochips, it's all about profit for Bill Gates, pushing of alternative treatments.
    My god.

    I knew Piers Corbyn was extreme - but is he channelling.... Macron now?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    edited January 2021
    Leon said:

    If a British politician tweeted that, they'd probably be forced to resign tomorrow. They would certainly be obliged to make a grovelling apology and delete the tweet.

    But he's a eurocrat, they just sail on and on.


    It's like the last ten days have been scripted by Nigel Farage, and Bill Cash. On acid.
    Nah, they just don't have the imagination to come up with this.

    I vaguely recall patronising crap explaining to me and others about how the EU was an institution based on law and legal principles in front of which we could only grovel and ask for forgiveness. Ratner was a complete amateur at destroying a brand compared with the likes of UvdL and Selmayr.
  • Routine bowel screening seems to have ground to a halt for now. My husband should have received a kit in September. They used to arrive very promptly every two years.

    Information on the internet says it was paused in March. But it restarted n August.
    I'm not sure if the new variant and its effects have changed that.

    A relative of ours had a complete stem cell transplant over a year ago. She still receives visits to hospital and associated treatments. Some life (literally) goes on.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796

    My god.

    I knew Piers Corbyn was extreme - but is he channelling.... Macron now?
    Who would have thought jeremy was the sensible one of the family?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219
    DougSeal said:

    I was set up.
    I thought you said you were in the shower and slipped on the soap? Or was that the setup?
  • DavidL said:

    Nah, they just don't have the imagination to come up with this.

    I vaguely recall patronising crap explaining to me and others about how the EU was an institution based on law and legal principles in front of which we could only grovel and ask for forgiveness. Ratner was a complete amateur at destroying a brand compared with the likes of UdvL and Selmayr.
    When the Cion marks World AIDS Day, is it to emphasise how much better the EU is at managing the disease than Africa? Would basically be the same statement....
  • tlg86 said:

    One of which won the league on goals scored...
    One season doesn't wash away a career of tedious defensive football.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Who would have thought jeremy was the sensible one of the family?
    Corbyn really matters
    Anyone can see
    Corbyn really matters
    Corbyn really matters to me
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    I'm anticipating the time when there will be a meaningful choice. I think with the uncertainties around rollouts and variants, and the sheer size of the global challenge, that time will likely come. If it doesn't, great.
    I see. I don't think a time of meaningful choice will ever come, or, if it does, it will be a window of at most a few weeks.

    If it does, then I disagree with you on the priorities.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    ydoethur said:

    I am intrigued. When was your second fiftieth birthday?
    The first time I got the package in the post, not the first time I had the birthday! Sorry. I'm not HMtQ with two b'days and two cakes a year.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219
    kle4 said:

    That looks like a parody - absurd holocaust parallels, link to David Icke, reference to nanochips, it's all about profit for Bill Gates, pushing of alternative treatments.

    If it is real, then free speech is not an issue, people putting that out there will be killing people.

    And how the heck did Piers Corbyn get to be a prominent figure of the absolute lunatics?
    Among the lunatics, the most bat shit insane is the leader. That's how QAnon etc work.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    Carnyx said:

    The first time I got the package in the post, not the first time I had the birthday! Sorry. I'm not HMtQ with two b'days and two cakes a year.
    Ah that explains why I dont have birthdays she has stolen mine :)
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Regarding Selmayr - has anyone told him that the Seychelles (African, Commonwealth too) are completely wiping the floor with the EU?

    Shows how rubbish the EU is doing, obviously.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Information on the internet says it was paused in March. But it restarted n August.
    I'm not sure if the new variant and its effects have changed that.

    A relative of ours had a complete stem cell transplant over a year ago. She still receives visits to hospital and associated treatments. Some life (literally) goes on.
    The Scots suspended the bowel cancer screening for some months too. Back in action - I got mine, slightly delayed, ion the end.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810

    My apologies - you've adopted the morality of an extreme anti-nationalist. Although it's clearly not an inflexible morality, since it permits you to take your doses of the vaccine ahead of our putative elderly Greek in order to protect yourself, and instead to give away the doses belonging to other people to signal your virtue at no cost to yourself.

    Because that's the moral thing to do.
    That's back to "if you favour higher taxes why don't you donate to HMRC?"

    Sterile and a dead end.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    One season doesn't wash away a career of tedious defensive football.
    So bitter, just ‘cos they knocked Liverpool off of their perch:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D06IAM_3_DY
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    Pagan2 said:

    Who would have thought jeremy was the sensible one of the family?
    Is there not a brother with zero media profile, whose name is even difficult to trace online, and who just gets on with his life? Surely he got all the brains available for this generation of Corbyns.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852
    A few weeks are a long time in politics.
    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1339153958246420480
  • kle4 said:

    That looks like a parody - absurd holocaust parallels, link to David Icke, reference to nanochips, it's all about profit for Bill Gates, pushing of alternative treatments.

    If it is real, then free speech is not an issue, people putting that out there will be killing people.

    And how the heck did Piers Corbyn get to be a prominent figure of the absolute lunatics?
    Piers Corbyn has always been a prominent crank but in the old days he was a climate change sceptic, popular with some on the right because of his sunspot theories.
  • A few weeks are a long time in politics.
    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1339153958246420480

    I heard the U.K. stole those weeks from the EU.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited January 2021

    A few weeks are a long time in politics.
    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1339153958246420480

    United....united...united.....it is worse than Uk politicians and their flags.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    https://twitter.com/SpinningHugo/status/1355951994326953985

    Look at the 2 responses - knocks it out of the park
  • LeonLeon Posts: 59,806

    A few weeks are a long time in politics.
    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1339153958246420480

    "But, also, let's make sure we beat the crap out of pathetic Africa, hahahah"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    United....united...united.....it is worse than Uk politicians and their flags.
    I think the problem is there isn't enough Europe.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    kinabalu said:

    That's back to "if you favour higher taxes why don't you donate to HMRC?"

    Sterile and a dead end.
    Thats only your opinion...you always go on about fair....is the tax you pay fair? If not donate till it gets to fair its not rocket science....my bet though is you think the tax you pay is fair and its everyone else that should pay more
  • A few weeks are a long time in politics.
    https://twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1339153958246420480

    "United through this pandemic"

    What a shame Starmer never abided by that sentiment.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422

    Note how it's framed by German TV: "When will Europe catch up with Great Britain and the USA?"
    Part of the strategy appears to have been "by slowing down Great Britain"....
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219
    Floater said:
    True. I did wonder what would happen if Archer met... Reese.... :-)
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    kinabalu said:

    That's back to "if you favour higher taxes why don't you donate to HMRC?"

    Sterile and a dead end.
    Have you gone insane? Do you genuinely believe that you have the right to be protected yourself but that other British citizens who also pay the taxes to fund the vaccines should be forced to go without for God knows how long while you send their doses abroad?

    This can't be real. It wouldn't work as a parody of a Hampstead socialist.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Given how many lawyers we have on this board, you may be being optimistic.
    Thought that Sir Keir Starmer got his knighthood for services rendered as a public persecutor (sp?).

    Is that any sign of success? OR do they hand 'em out just for showing up, like a pre-school "graduation"?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,359

    "United through this pandemic"

    What a shame Starmer never abided by that sentiment.
    I disagree. At least there is an opposition. There isn't a shadow commission or anything. They are completely unaccountable.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796

    Have you gone insane? Do you genuinely believe that you have the right to be protected yourself but that other British citizens who also pay the taxes to fund the vaccines should be forced to go without for God knows how long while you send their doses abroad?

    This can't be real. It wouldn't work as a parody of a Hampstead socialist.
    Sadly it is genuine, intially though he has rowed back a little now he even argued those vaccine doses should go to the hard up europeans
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400

    I wouldn't normally cut and paste but I saw this and couldn't quite believe it. Anyone in Southwark? What a family...

    https://twitter.com/Leo_Pollak/status/1355935952431149069

    I think we have now found someone behaving more poorly than UvdL.

    Congratulations, Piers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400
    kle4 said:

    That looks like a parody - absurd holocaust parallels, link to David Icke, reference to nanochips, it's all about profit for Bill Gates, pushing of alternative treatments.

    If it is real, then free speech is not an issue, people putting that out there will be killing people.

    And how the heck did Piers Corbyn get to be a prominent figure of the absolute lunatics?
    I assumed so too.

    Then I went to Piers Corbyn's website (https://www.stopnewnormal.net/downloads), and it contains links to the pamphlet.

    So, he really is spreading this shit.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    rcs1000 said:

    I think we have now found someone behaving more poorly than UvdL.

    Congratulations, Piers.
    Perhaps Piers is putting his hat into the ring as next euro president and this is his campaign?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594
    rcs1000 said:

    I assumed so too.

    Then I went to Piers Corbyn's website (https://www.stopnewnormal.net/downloads), and it contains links to the pamphlet.

    So, he really is spreading this shit.
    There has to be something that can be done. If people listen to him he may be getting others killed.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    edited January 2021
    Just read the blog from David Allen Green (remainer lawyer) on this and the first thing he noticed was the same as what @Sean_F noticed that the EU contract was with AstraZeneca AB of Sweden, not the parent. This seems extremely basic to me because AZ AB would be a buyer of vaccine doses from AZ plc not the owner of the manufactured doses. I don't understand why anyone would get such a serious contract with a subsidiary rather than the parent, it's really very basic, you make the parent take on the liability, always.

    It actually does feel like one of those ideological decisions taken by the commission to support the "European" part of AZ rather than the British parent company, which would be absolutely hilarious given the accusations Boris got of not signing up to the doomed EU scheme on ideological grounds.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796
    kle4 said:

    There has to be something that can be done. If people listen to him he may be getting others killed.
    Well the dark web has plenty of people for hire
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180
    edited January 2021

    Thought that Sir Keir Starmer got his knighthood for services rendered as a public persecutor (sp?).

    Is that any sign of success? OR do they hand 'em out just for showing up, like a pre-school "graduation"?
    It's a bit like the Nobel Peace Prize which you can qualify for if you are a US President whose name doesn't start with B (sorry Joe, them's the rules) or T (obviously).
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    kinabalu said:

    Normally the case in practice, yes, although I don't go along with the notion that it's either in theory or as a matter of realism the best model possible. Also do not dispute that "sorting ourselves first come what may" is probably a vote winner. Indeed I note that Labour are making such noises in opposition to Truss's more internationalist ones.

    However, leaving aside the ethics, in this case there is self-interest in a collectivist approach to fighting the pandemic. Right now there isn't a choice to be made, since Covid is not under control here, but the time may well come when there is. And if so, imo our approach should not be one of no diversion of supply as long as there remains a single unwillingly unjabbed arm in Blighty.
    Yuge practical danger there: if you leave UK under 50s unjabbed because the risk to them is negligible, in favour of more vulnerable foreigners, and there is then a mutation such that hundreds or thousands of them die when they would have lived if jabbed, you are dead in the water. No govt could risk that.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,400
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Just read the blog from David Allen Green (remainer lawyer) on this and the first thing he noticed was the same as what @Sean_F noticed that the EU contract was with AstraZeneca AB of Sweden, not the parent. This seems extremely basic to me because AZ AB would be a buyer of vaccine doses from AZ plc not the owner of the manufactured doses. I don't understand why anyone would get such a serious contract with a subsidiary rather than the parent, it's really very basic, you make the parent take on the liability, always.

    It actually does feel like one of those ideological decisions taken by the commission to support the "European" part of AZ rather than the British parent company, which would be absolutely hilarious.

    Hang on: I suspect that the corporate parent enters into very few (if any) contracts, except those with its subsidiaries. From my CFO days, the holding company would never enter intro contractual arrangements, other than with lawyers or accountants, as a risk management measure. Simply, you want the limited liability shield to be as far down the corporate structure as possible.

    Edit to add: while the UK will have contracted with a UK entity, it also won't have contracted with the group parent.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Just read the blog from David Allen Green (remainer lawyer) on this and the first thing he noticed was the same as what @Sean_F noticed that the EU contract was with AstraZeneca AB of Sweden, not the parent. This seems extremely basic to me because AZ AB would be a buyer of vaccine doses from AZ plc not the owner of the manufactured doses. I don't understand why anyone would get such a serious contract with a subsidiary rather than the parent, it's really very basic, you make the parent take on the liability, always.

    It actually does feel like one of those ideological decisions taken by the commission to support the "European" part of AZ rather than the British parent company, which would be absolutely hilarious given the accusations Boris got of not signing up to the doomed EU scheme on ideological grounds.

    Or AZN have stitched them up like a kipper...
  • MaxPB said:

    Just read the blog from David Allen Green (remainer lawyer) on this and the first thing he noticed was the same as what @Sean_F noticed that the EU contract was with AstraZeneca AB of Sweden, not the parent. This seems extremely basic to me because AZ AB would be a buyer of vaccine doses from AZ plc not the owner of the manufactured doses. I don't understand why anyone would get such a serious contract with a subsidiary rather than the parent, it's really very basic, you make the parent take on the liability, always.

    It actually does feel like one of those ideological decisions taken by the commission to support the "European" part of AZ rather than the British parent company, which would be absolutely hilarious given the accusations Boris got of not signing up to the doomed EU scheme on ideological grounds.

    Even at the most basic level, one has to conclude they didn’t understand what they’d signed. I am amazed and surprised because in my experience Commission Legal Services are not bad.
  • tlg86 said:

    So bitter, just ‘cos they knocked Liverpool off of their perch:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D06IAM_3_DY
    Who knows what other dodgy stuff bung taking George Graham got up to.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,796

    Even at the most basic level, one has to conclude they didn’t understand what they’d signed. I am amazed and surprised because in my experience Commission Legal Services are not bad.
    There may have been political pressure to sign though
  • I wouldn't normally cut and paste but I saw this and couldn't quite believe it. Anyone in Southwark? What a family...

    https://twitter.com/Leo_Pollak/status/1355935952431149069

    Does it really say that MSG causes birth defects? Has anyone told the Chinese takeaway?
  • rcs1000 said:

    Hang on: I suspect that the corporate parent enters into very few (if any) contracts, except those with its subsidiaries. From my CFO days, the holding company would never enter intro contractual arrangements, other than with lawyers or accountants, as a risk management measure. Simply, you want the limited liability shield to be as far down the corporate structure as possible.

    Edit to add: while the UK will have contracted with a UK entity, it also won't have contracted with the group parent.
    To some extent if you’re the EU or the U.K. you don’t much care. It’s rare for you to have to exercise contractual rights in court because you have so much scope to twist arms in other ways; if you are in the right.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,219
    With all the noise here, I remembered this -

    For context - a dying AI trying to explain it's understanding of mortality to it's dying creator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av6x8PD0nXA
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    Even at the most basic level, one has to conclude they didn’t understand what they’d signed. I am amazed and surprised because in my experience Commission Legal Services are not bad.
    As the dispute has been political, with the Commission desperate to rope the UK into it, there's every possibility that the Legal Services know what was signed up to but the Commission didn't care.

    And that's not conspiracy - they are asking people to buy the explanation that someone, somehow, inadvertently triggered the NI protocol. And the Commission president is therefore free and clear. And people are pretending to buy that because 'unity'.

    So anything is possible.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    Who knows what other dodgy stuff bung taking George Graham got up to.
    You’ll notice some fantastic falling with style from Anders Limpar in that game.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,482
    Note the proportion of Israel's population getting a second vaccination compared to the UK.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823
    rcs1000 said:

    Hang on: I suspect that the corporate parent enters into very few (if any) contracts, except those with its subsidiaries. From my CFO days, the holding company would never enter intro contractual arrangements, other than with lawyers or accountants, as a risk management measure. Simply, you want the limited liability shield to be as far down the corporate structure as possible.

    Edit to add: while the UK will have contracted with a UK entity, it also won't have contracted with the group parent.
    For a contract of this level of importance wouldn't the buyer insist on parent liability though? From what we've been able to read about the UK side of things the UK contract gives the UK government first charge on 100m doses manufactured in the UK so either the government has made AstraZeneca plc liable for that or AstraZeneca UK Ltd owns all UK manufactured doses by way of being the contractor of Cobra Biologics, Wockhardt and Oxford Biomedica rather than the parent.

    If I was the UK government that is how I'd structure the deal, or in fact have AZ incorporate a new company "AstraZeneca Vaccines UK Ltd" or something like that and have it completely separated so other parts of the company are internal buyers and have no charge on any supply it receives.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,594

    With all the noise here, I remembered this -

    For context - a dying AI trying to explain it's understanding of mortality to it's dying creator

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av6x8PD0nXA

    Great show. Could have been just a standard procedural, then eased itself into something so much more. I loved the main bad guy in the end, and his motivation for AIs to direct affairs like Olympian gods.
This discussion has been closed.