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A glimmer of hope? – politicalbetting.com

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  • One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    If he had gotten lucky Michael Pence was going to be executed.
    Four people died, while they were committing a felony.

    All these guys could be executed under Federal felony murder laws.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    If he had gotten lucky Michael Pence was going to be executed.
    If there's a case he had intent to murder Michael Pence and there's evidence to prove conspiracy to commit murder, then let's hear it. If it's just insinuation because others did or they suspect others might have done then it's not.

    Whatever you feel about the politics of the cause and however unsympathetic you are to the accused there always has to be the fair administration of justice. In fact, that's the ultimate test of whether you *do* believe in the fair adminstration of justice.

    As things stand it sounds like he's being singled out because he's seen as a "leader and symbol" of QAnon and they want to make an example of him. It happens regularly in America and you sometimes see people threatened with sentences hundreds of years long in the hope that they then engage in plea bargaining, which of course many do.

    For any other politico people like, oh, I don't know, maybe the Secret Barrister, would have quite a bit to say about that.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021

    Interesting

    BBC News - Covid: Plan to allow Senedd election Covid delay published
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-55824997

    Most people seem pretty convinced the May elections in general are not going ahead, there is quite a lot of momentum behind it. At some point it becomes more problematic to cancel than keep going, so a delay needs announcing before that point.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?

    Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.

    There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.

    Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
    I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
    I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
    Its out already:

    https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1354353492266246146?s=19
    Anti vaxxing BAMEs are gonna be a real issue.

    Dawkins' disease, as Rob Smithson termed it ages ago. A lot of this resistance will be religious.
    Is vaccination a no no with many religions/sects? Someone said awhile back Jehovah's Witnesses are ok with vaccinations despite not being ok with blood transfusions for example, and I'd be confused why even non 'mainstream' religions would have a particular bugbear around vaccination.
    It is not a legitimate religious objection. Spiritual leaders have universally supported vaccination.

    There is a lot of crazy antivaxxing on social media though, about all the vaccines, but particularly the rna ones.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Which doesn't have much to do with the response to that unreliable supply, so why it is used to deflect I don't know. It's a crappy situation, all the suppliers have experienced issues and let down those who have made orders. Which when it is a complex process with many things that could lead to delay, is sadly not entirely unexpected.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Interesting match starting. Difficult to call, but Leicester defence has been pretty good recently. Missing Vardy is bad, but Maddison and Barnes are on fire.

    1 nil to City.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
    But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
    Here's a question for those with knowledge of the process:

    Isn't it quite usual for there to be delays in the production of new medicines - it's just that normally, you have longer to sort them out because there isn't this level of urgency?

    I seem to remember about two years ago there was a problem with flu vaccines due to an egg shortage, although I didn't pay much attention and could be wrong.
    Biologicals absolutely. Yields are a nightmare and manufacturing process improvement is an ongoing game.

    Little white pills are much easier
  • One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    If he had gotten lucky Michael Pence was going to be executed.
    If there's a case he had intent to murder Michael Pence and there's evidence to prove conspiracy to commit murder, then let's hear it. If it's just insinuation because others did or they suspect others might have done then it's not.

    Whatever you feel about the politics of the cause and however unsympathetic you are to the accused there always has to be the fair administration of justice. In fact, that's the ultimate test of whether you *do* believe in the fair adminstration of justice.

    As things stand it sounds like he's being singled out because he's seen as a "leader and symbol" of QAnon and they want to make an example of him. It happens regularly in America and you sometimes see people threatened with sentences hundreds of years long in the hope that they then engage in plea bargaining, which of course many do.

    For any other politico people like, oh, I don't know, maybe the Secret Barrister, would have quite a bit to say about that.
    Its true that the way they act is to really exaggerate penalties then bargain it down.

    Considering 4 people are dead from the terrorism he engaged in then 28 years as a starting point is rather moderate by US standards.
  • Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
    But they have honoured the obligation to create the manufacturing capacity. According to the CEO, they are just experiencing teething issues with yield, as they did with the UK facilities too.
    Yes, and its no real difference really to Gregg Wallace in some giant gigafactory spewing out endless lines of cans of baked beans, innit like...

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
    It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?

    Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.

    There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.

    Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
    I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
    I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
    Its out already:

    https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1354353492266246146?s=19
    Anti vaxxing BAMEs are gonna be a real issue.

    Dawkins' disease, as Rob Smithson termed it ages ago. A lot of this resistance will be religious.
    Is vaccination a no no with many religions/sects? Someone said awhile back Jehovah's Witnesses are ok with vaccinations despite not being ok with blood transfusions for example, and I'd be confused why even non 'mainstream' religions would have a particular bugbear around vaccination.
    Here’s one example. Yes, it’s quite contentious with many religious groups.
    https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/health/muslim-scholars-definitively-back-covid-19-vaccine-as-halal-1.1143479
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    On a tangent, are there any figures of vaccination take up among the age groups?

    Anecdotal evidence is the vaccination programme is heading more quickly into the younger age groups in some areas because some older people have refused the vaccine.

    There are 24 million over 50 in this country - if the take up is 75% for example, that would reduce by 6 million the numbers to be vaccinated which at 400,000 per day accelerates the process by 15 days so not insignificant.

    Localised report from part of NI is that older people vaccinated through GPs, so far really high take up.
    I'm concerned about take up in the BAME community especially in parts of London. I live in an area with a high Tamil population from southern India and Sri Lanka and I'm concerned as to the strength of any take up based on mask wearing which doesn't seem that strong either.
    I believe the government will start to release data on this from tomorrow.
    Its out already:

    https://twitter.com/bengoldacre/status/1354353492266246146?s=19
    Anti vaxxing BAMEs are gonna be a real issue.

    Dawkins' disease, as Rob Smithson termed it ages ago. A lot of this resistance will be religious.
    Is vaccination a no no with many religions/sects? Someone said awhile back Jehovah's Witnesses are ok with vaccinations despite not being ok with blood transfusions for example, and I'd be confused why even non 'mainstream' religions would have a particular bugbear around vaccination.
    Think it's a mixture of -

    - Is it haram? Does the vaccine contain forbidden products - alcohol. Say?
    - Anti-vax stuff about efficacy / consequences / chip implants etc.
    - Ignorance about its importance
    - General anti-science feeling.

    Apart from the first it's not a religious issue at all. But it may be that all or some of these attitudes are, for various reasons, more prevalent in certain communities.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    edited January 2021
    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    Don’t think any of them forced an entry into the Capitol Building that sent the country’s elected representatives into hiding in fear of their lives?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
  • Has this, from the Guardian, been mentioned yet:

    After some delay in the production of the Pfizer/BioNTech coronavirus vaccine, Pfizer’s plant in Puurs, Belgium, is on schedule again, the company said on Wednesday.

    Last week and the start of this week, dose production was 8% lower than initially expected, Le Soir reports.

    On 15 January, Pfizer announced that due to adjustments in the production process, the Puurs plant would be able to supply fewer doses of the vaccine than previously anticipated.

    This had a limited impact during the week of 18 January and the start of the following week.

    By mid-February, more vaccines than expected are due to be produced, allowing the company to deliver the promised number to Europe in the first quarter.


    Its certainly good news but makes the EU's behaviour appear even more outrageous.

    An 8% fall in production over ten days equates to 3% over a month and so is no excuse for the EU's feeble vaccine rollout.
  • One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    If he had gotten lucky Michael Pence was going to be executed.
    If there's a case he had intent to murder Michael Pence and there's evidence to prove conspiracy to commit murder, then let's hear it. If it's just insinuation because others did or they suspect others might have done then it's not.

    Whatever you feel about the politics of the cause and however unsympathetic you are to the accused there always has to be the fair administration of justice. In fact, that's the ultimate test of whether you *do* believe in the fair adminstration of justice.

    As things stand it sounds like he's being singled out because he's seen as a "leader and symbol" of QAnon and they want to make an example of him. It happens regularly in America and you sometimes see people threatened with sentences hundreds of years long in the hope that they then engage in plea bargaining, which of course many do.

    For any other politico people like, oh, I don't know, maybe the Secret Barrister, would have quite a bit to say about that.
    Video taken by a New Yorker contributor during the U.S. Capitol riot shows a horn-hatted man from Phoenix proudly displaying and reading a note he left for Vice President Mike Pence — the same missive federal prosecutors described as threatening when they filed charges that could put him in prison for decades.

    https://eu.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/arizona/2021/01/17/phoenix-capitol-rioter-jake-angeli-reads-threat-vp-pence-video/4199964001/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    MaxPB said:

    Leon said:

    Hmmm! Another unexpected consequence of the virus?!

    https://twitter.com/PopulismUpdates/status/1354501306056990721?s=20

    Oh god, don't. That would be the icing on the shit cake of this pandemic. Hopefully Macron makes a recovery.
    It's darkly comic tho. And given how the last six or seven years have gone, who would bet against it?

    The vaccine might play a role here. If France goes back into lockdown (highly possible), vaccine shortages remain, and the EU gets the blame - maybe even Macron in particular, tantruming over Sanofi - then the much more eurosceptic Le Pen could sneak it.

    She's a cunning politician.
    France did buy some vaccines outside the EU scheme, so it's also possible that France does better than the rest of the EU... And he get the credit...
    Didn't they buy extra Sanofi and Merck ones though? Both of them are now in the fail category.
    No, it was Velneva I believe. (I.e., local champion.)
    Not that local, their vaccine manufacturing is in the UK with a pretty well integrated UK supply chain. At least that's what I saw in a presentation last week.
    Valneva is a French company (owned by the Grimaud family) using Austrian science (Intercell IIRC) and manufacturing in Scotland
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Reminds me of Google not allowing searches for Scunthorpe a few years ago.
    I believe the issue was referred to as the Scunthorpe problem.

    I seem to recall some UK gov accidentally led to the blocking some things because the letters sex were in some file names.
    Indeed, and there’s a long and well-documented list of similar problems encountered over the years. There’s dozens of ‘offensive’ place names in the UK, not to mention the small town in Upper Austria that now prefers to be called Fugging.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

    Wonders if The Fuggers were more than just a wunch of bankers with a name change.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,178
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
    It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
    Have they or have governments not read the contracts? According to the head of Astra Zeneca, some haven't.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    GSK is one of the global market leaders in vaccines alongside Pfizer, Merck and Sanofi. Their CEED was in Belgium though I think
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Charles said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    GSK is one of the global market leaders in vaccines alongside Pfizer, Merck and Sanofi. Their CEED was in Belgium though I think
    I meant in the UK, because that was the question.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I have been too busy at work to follow the rather opaque shouting match between AZN and EU over what an unpublished contract shows.

    My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Yokes said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
    It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
    Have they or have governments not read the contracts? According to the head of Astra Zeneca, some haven't.
    I wonder how many contracts for supply of pharmaceuticals the EU has actually negotiated, previous to last year?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
    This is where Kate Bingham really deserves praise. Her expertise is in identifying start-up biotech companies worth investing in and this is what (an educated guess but it fits with the facts we have) she was really brought in to do - to give rocket boosters to this sort of investment in promising companies doing the scientific research and the necessary development and scaling up and partnering with other more established companies.

    I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
    Yes, but also to sort the wheat from the chaff. She decided to invest in BioNTech and Moderna not Imperial because she was looking for best in class
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.

    We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.

    Apart from the predictable anti-EU jibe which wasn't really necessary, I'd argue the point WHEN we have achieved a much higher level of vaccination, we should consider helping those parts of the world which lack the logistical infrastructure to carry out a vaccination programme.

    What would make me proud to be British would be to see our soldiers and medics leading the vaccination of populations in poorer countries, genuinely helping to improve people's lives.

    That doesn't include the EU (other than maybe Ireland given our land border). They have the means to help themselves. We should be helping the developing world.
    Agreed and I'd be delighted to see British troops and medics leading the way especially in Africa and Latin America.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,458
    edited January 2021
    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    Oh come on, I dont agree with Foxy on the single jab risks and to be honest cant even see where he is coming from given the data, but he is one of the best posters on the site, well informed and balanced. If you really think he is a piece of work and beyond the pale it might be you who is blind.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Mark Cuban has went and done a thing

    https://costplusdrugs.com/

    Could be quite a dramatic effect.

    If that can be taken at face value - and I am hopeful it can - then that is one hell of a great thing he is doing. And they still make 15% profit which seems a reasonable result to me.
    The main effect it will have is to make the existing generic manufacturers lower their prices.

    It is one of the ironies of the generic market in America is that even though a generic can be cheap to manufacture and have astronomical markup the 'moat' is still large.

    Setting up a from scratch production line for a drug is hugely expensive and then the existing players who have already amoretized their capital costs can just lower their massive markup to compete with the new comer.

    Cuban, it seems to me, is willing to blow cash on this to force the generic companies to lower their prices to something reasonable with the threat of coming for their astronomical profit margin.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,178
    Sandpit said:

    Yokes said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
    It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
    Have they or have governments not read the contracts? According to the head of Astra Zeneca, some haven't.
    I wonder how many contracts for supply of pharmaceuticals the EU has actually negotiated, previous to last year?
    Who knows. I its fair that in this whole situation that worldwide, governments as a body have got their fingers burnt, (see PPE) but Soirot's interview posted below if as stated says a lot.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
    This is where Kate Bingham really deserves praise. Her expertise is in identifying start-up biotech companies worth investing in and this is what (an educated guess but it fits with the facts we have) she was really brought in to do - to give rocket boosters to this sort of investment in promising companies doing the scientific research and the necessary development and scaling up and partnering with other more established companies.

    I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
    Yes, but also to sort the wheat from the chaff. She decided to invest in BioNTech and Moderna not Imperial because she was looking for best in class
    I think that's fair, but Imperial partnered with GSK would have been a second all domestic partnership. We can see now just how important it is to ensure the security of pharma supplies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    I think it fair that people raised concerns around the delay in the Pfizer jab (though my understanding is the delay is as always intended for the AZ one?), I did myself, since it was not that which the provider had stated.

    However what does not seem reasonable is to imply it is a complete shot in the dark, as it were, when the reasoning behind taking the risk of delaying the jab have clearly been set out and the maths on it seems pretty sound, as well as why it is considered efficacy should not be a major issue.

    Of course any option includes risk, but the very clear implication of some comments is that there is very major risk taken without any consideration of risks and gains (the 'acknowledge it is a gamble!' argument, as though all gambles are equally risky) and that does not seem to have been the case at all.

    Edit: If that ourworldindata site is right, then Germany as done around 283k second jabs to the UKs 472k, 226k in Italy and 123k in Spain, presumably a fast catch up as we've done very few in the last few weeks.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    I think it fair that people raised concerns around the delay in the Pfizer jab (though my understanding is the delay is as always intended for the AZ one?), I did myself, since it was not that which the provider had stated.

    However what does not seem reasonable is to imply it is a complete shot in the dark, as it were, when the reasoning behind taking the risk of delaying the jab have clearly been set out and the maths on it seems pretty sound, as well as why it is considered efficacy should not be a major issue.

    Of course any option includes risk, but the very clear implication of some comments is that there is very major risk taken without any consideration of risks and gains (the 'acknowledge it is a gamble!' argument, as though all gambles are equally risky) and that does not seem to have been the case at all.
    Yeah, using the word "gamble" is a bit much, and really does imply whoever uses it is seeking to discredit the decision.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited January 2021
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    stodge said:

    MaxPB said:

    stodge said:

    Leon said:


    We are not in a "fortunate position". We have huge death rates daily, massive pressure on hospitals, cases may be coming down but from a very high peak. And there is always the risk of a new variant, evading the vaccines. And we have only given out a load of single doses, all those people need two doses.

    We will not be in the fortunate position of being able to share the vaccines we make or have ordered until we have jabbed everyone vulnerable and/or over 40. At that point, maybe. But nor should we try and steal vaccines from our neighbours, as the EU would like to do. Twats.

    Apart from the predictable anti-EU jibe which wasn't really necessary, I'd argue the point WHEN we have achieved a much higher level of vaccination, we should consider helping those parts of the world which lack the logistical infrastructure to carry out a vaccination programme.

    What would make me proud to be British would be to see our soldiers and medics leading the vaccination of populations in poorer countries, genuinely helping to improve people's lives.

    That doesn't include the EU (other than maybe Ireland given our land border). They have the means to help themselves. We should be helping the developing world.
    Agreed and I'd be delighted to see British troops and medics leading the way especially in Africa and Latin America.
    100% agreed and hopefully by the middle of this summer we can start doing that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    dr_spyn said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Reminds me of Google not allowing searches for Scunthorpe a few years ago.
    I believe the issue was referred to as the Scunthorpe problem.

    I seem to recall some UK gov accidentally led to the blocking some things because the letters sex were in some file names.
    Indeed, and there’s a long and well-documented list of similar problems encountered over the years. There’s dozens of ‘offensive’ place names in the UK, not to mention the small town in Upper Austria that now prefers to be called Fugging.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

    Wonders if The Fuggers were more than just a wunch of bankers with a name change.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family
    How many families of bankers have funny surnames I wonder?
  • Britain and EU clash over claims to UK-produced Covid vaccine

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/27/eu-covid-vaccine-row-astrazeneca-european-commission

    For once very little "clashing" from the British side. The UK government have been very calm so far over all.of this, it is the EU that have gone total Cartman blaming everybody under the sun but themselves
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    Oh come on, I dont agree with Foxy on the single jab risks and to be honest cant even see where he is coming from given the data, but he is one of the best posters on the site, well informed and balanced. If you really think he is a piece of work and beyond the pale it might be you who is blind.
    Also: he's a doctor. And it is doctors' personal responsibility to give their patients tbe best treatment and not to kill them with defective treatment. It does - presumably - give a different perspective from some governmemt apparatchik trying to maximise numbers for the BBC evening news.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
  • Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Mark Cuban has went and done a thing

    https://costplusdrugs.com/

    Could be quite a dramatic effect.

    If that can be taken at face value - and I am hopeful it can - then that is one hell of a great thing he is doing. And they still make 15% profit which seems a reasonable result to me.
    The main effect it will have is to make the existing generic manufacturers lower their prices.

    It is one of the ironies of the generic market in America is that even though a generic can be cheap to manufacture and have astronomical markup the 'moat' is still large.

    Setting up a from scratch production line for a drug is hugely expensive and then the existing players who have already amoretized their capital costs can just lower their massive markup to compete with the new comer.

    Cuban, it seems to me, is willing to blow cash on this to force the generic companies to lower their prices to something reasonable with the threat of coming for their astronomical profit margin.
    They'll only sustainably lower their prices if someone actually does go ahead and do it.

    It seems like an industry ripe for someone doing like what Musk did with SpaceX.
  • Didn't they do their own extra vaccine deals outside of the EU one as well?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    They can be separated by their actions:

    Walking around taking selfies, reading out speeches, dressed like ancient relics of the past = cosplayers.

    Armed with knives and guns, attacking or making threats towards security forces, police or elected officials = insurrectionists.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    If the 12 week decision is a gamble, it's more akin to buying a spread betting option quite close to the floor.
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,152
    dr_spyn said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Reminds me of Google not allowing searches for Scunthorpe a few years ago.
    I believe the issue was referred to as the Scunthorpe problem.

    I seem to recall some UK gov accidentally led to the blocking some things because the letters sex were in some file names.
    Indeed, and there’s a long and well-documented list of similar problems encountered over the years. There’s dozens of ‘offensive’ place names in the UK, not to mention the small town in Upper Austria that now prefers to be called Fugging.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scunthorpe_problem

    Wonders if The Fuggers were more than just a wunch of bankers with a name change.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugger_family
    I did feel sorry for the palaeontologists who discovered the software for their virtual conference banned the word "bone" (in the wiki article cited earlier).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
    This is where Kate Bingham really deserves praise. Her expertise is in identifying start-up biotech companies worth investing in and this is what (an educated guess but it fits with the facts we have) she was really brought in to do - to give rocket boosters to this sort of investment in promising companies doing the scientific research and the necessary development and scaling up and partnering with other more established companies.

    I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
    Yes, but also to sort the wheat from the chaff. She decided to invest in BioNTech and Moderna not Imperial because she was looking for best in class
    I think that's fair, but Imperial partnered with GSK would have been a second all domestic partnership. We can see now just how important it is to ensure the security of pharma supplies.
    https://www.braintreeandwithamtimes.co.uk/news/18806027.braintree-chosen-location-100m-covid-19-vaccine-centre/

    *buffs nails*

    Shit load of work last year to get this one done
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2021
    Poland vaccinations might be grinding to a halt...

    People in Poland long appeared hesitant to get vaccinated against COVID-19. Then they saw celebrities and politicians scandalously jump the line for the jab. Now there's not enough vaccine to go around

    There are now no more appointments until the end of March, according to the Polish Ministry of Health.

    https://www.dw.com/en/queue-jumping-celebs-boost-polish-coronavirus-vaccine-interest/a-56364446

    Moderna has cancelled its coronavirus vaccines supply to Poland scheduled for Tuesday, a government official said, adding the delivery could be supplied during the weekend at the earliest.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN29U0WG
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Cheers. So UK is massively, massively ahead of any other country when it comes to second doses too.

    So essentially we're just mammothly outperforming on first doses and still doing best in class on second doses?

    And some bleat about a "gamble"?
  • Charles said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I have been too busy at work to follow the rather opaque shouting match between AZN and EU over what an unpublished contract shows.

    My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
    It’s a judgement call, based on a review of the scientific data available, not “a gamble”
    It is clearly both a gamble and judgment call. The issue with calling it a gamble is it implies there is a safer choice available. I can't see one (on vaccines), every option is a gamble, so the term is relatively meaningless in this scenario, yet will be misinterpreted by those who do not understand risk well.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I have been too busy at work to follow the rather opaque shouting match between AZN and EU over what an unpublished contract shows.

    My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
    Your comments on this have come across as a bit disingenuous. You act as though no one is acknowledging any risk to the strategy and therefore you are speaking a bold truth trying to get people to accept it is a 'gamble', but who has not accepted that the choice was a calculation based on estimated risks? My reaction, which was not unique, to the plan when announced was that it was a very bad one.

    If it is less than successful you will therefore probably claim no one thought about risk, which would not be true even if their assessment of the risk proved wrong, since there clearly was assessment.

    So I don't know what point you are really trying to make. The only point seems to be that others talk about potential risks, and you wish everyone to use the word gamble.
  • Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    They can be separated by their actions:

    Walking around taking selfies, reading out speeches, dressed like ancient relics of the past = cosplayers.

    Armed with knives and guns, attacking or making threats towards security forces, police or elected officials = insurrectionists.
    Cosplaying during a terrorist attack on the Capitol probably wasn't a smart idea. Stick to Comic Con next time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.

    I'm still not convinced - we've no evidence of the efficacy of the single Pfizer vaccination at Day 50, 60 or 70. If we were to ease restrictions and it turned out those with a single vaccination were not adequately protected, I think there would be questions asked and rightly so.

    I believe Israel has carried out a much greater proportion of second vaccinations:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/israel-surpasses-1-million-fully-vaccinated-with-both-doses/2021/01/25/

    More than half of those vaccinated have received two vaccinations - very different to the UK.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Sandpit said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    They can be separated by their actions:

    Walking around taking selfies, reading out speeches, dressed like ancient relics of the past = cosplayers.

    Armed with knives and guns, attacking or making threats towards security forces, police or elected officials = insurrectionists.
    Cosplaying during a terrorist attack on the Capitol probably wasn't a smart idea. Stick to Comic Con next time.
    Thankfully being dumb isn't yet a criminal offence. ;)
  • MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Cheers. So UK is massively, massively ahead of any other country when it comes to second doses too.

    So essentially we're just mammothly outperforming on first doses and still doing best in class on second doses?

    And some bleat about a "gamble"?
    I would guess the UK will be overtaken by the end of the month by Germany and Italy though that will come at the cost of a reduction in new first doses.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Something I agree with you on. Wonders never cease.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    And people often get harsher sentences for committing crimes, which he undoubtedly did, as part of a mob/rioting, even if they did not commit the worst of offences by that mob/riot.

    I can accept 28 years does seem an awful lot, but given the context of events and the location of the riot, 5-6 also feels too low. I'd think more should be given if someone participated in the violent storming of Parliament.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    stodge said:


    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.

    I'm still not convinced - we've no evidence of the efficacy of the single Pfizer vaccination at Day 50, 60 or 70. If we were to ease restrictions and it turned out those with a single vaccination were not adequately protected, I think there would be questions asked and rightly so.

    I believe Israel has carried out a much greater proportion of second vaccinations:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/israel-surpasses-1-million-fully-vaccinated-with-both-doses/2021/01/25/

    More than half of those vaccinated have received two vaccinations - very different to the UK.

    Israel and UAE are both sticking to three week intervals between first jab and booster (Neither are using the AZ jab yet though, Israel is on Pfizer and Moderna, UAE on Pfizer and Sinopharm).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    tlg86 said:

    If the 12 week decision is a gamble, it's more akin to buying a spread betting option quite close to the floor.

    Yes, I have not speculated what the odds are on "the gamble" just expressed the view that, while there is some theoretical evidence for believing that the extended gap will work, it is not a regime used in any of the Pfizer phase 3 trials, and is against manufacturers recommendation.

    The 12 week interval was tested in the phase 3 arm of AZN, albeit in a young population and with a mixture of doses, so there are scientific grounds to use that regime.
  • Sandpit said:

    stodge said:


    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.

    I'm still not convinced - we've no evidence of the efficacy of the single Pfizer vaccination at Day 50, 60 or 70. If we were to ease restrictions and it turned out those with a single vaccination were not adequately protected, I think there would be questions asked and rightly so.

    I believe Israel has carried out a much greater proportion of second vaccinations:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/israel-surpasses-1-million-fully-vaccinated-with-both-doses/2021/01/25/

    More than half of those vaccinated have received two vaccinations - very different to the UK.

    Israel and UAE are both sticking to three week intervals between first jab and booster (Neither are using the AZ jab yet though, Israel is on Pfizer and Moderna, UAE on Pfizer and Sinopharm).
    Israel obligated to do so apparently as part of the contract so they have not made a decision to do so.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    I hesitate to say this to a fellow poster as I try (and admittedly often fail) to be civil. But unless you can back up any of that post I am going to disregard it as bullshit of the crudest sort.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
    I sure can:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-arrest-suspect-killing-st-louis-police-captain-protest/
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/jessica-doty-whitaker-dead/
  • As federal law enforcement officers sift through evidence tied to the attack on the U.S. Capitol, they have tried to determine what compelled rioters to force their way into the building. Namely, did any of them plan to kill or capture lawmakers or their staffers?

    Officials said they may have found clues to that question from one of the mob’s most distinctive figures: Jacob Anthony Chansley, the shirtless, tattooed man often referred to as “QAnon Shaman,” who stood out in a headdress made of coyote skin and buffalo horns.

    In a court filing late Thursday, federal prosecutors in Phoenix wrote that “strong evidence, including Chansley’s own words and actions at the Capitol, supports that the intent of the Capitol rioters was to capture and assassinate elected officials in the United States government.”


    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1258007/gov.uscourts.azd.1258007.5.0.pdf
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    DougSeal said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    I hesitate to say this to a fellow poster as I try (and admittedly often fail) to be civil. But unless you can back up any of that post I am going to disregard it as bullshit of the crudest sort.
    See reply to @TSE
  • MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Cheers. So UK is massively, massively ahead of any other country when it comes to second doses too.

    So essentially we're just mammothly outperforming on first doses and still doing best in class on second doses?

    And some bleat about a "gamble"?
    I would guess the UK will be overtaken by the end of the month by Germany and Italy though that will come at the cost of a reduction in new first doses.
    Not for long though I bet. The UK second round will be ramped up from scale by the end of February.

    By end of March we will be well and truly in the lead for second doses.
  • MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
    I sure can:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-arrest-suspect-killing-st-louis-police-captain-protest/
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/jessica-doty-whitaker-dead/
    Nope, you said

    'Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.'

    So I was asking about the people on here that you talked about.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:


    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.

    I'm still not convinced - we've no evidence of the efficacy of the single Pfizer vaccination at Day 50, 60 or 70. If we were to ease restrictions and it turned out those with a single vaccination were not adequately protected, I think there would be questions asked and rightly so.

    I believe Israel has carried out a much greater proportion of second vaccinations:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/israel-surpasses-1-million-fully-vaccinated-with-both-doses/2021/01/25/

    More than half of those vaccinated have received two vaccinations - very different to the UK.

    Israel and UAE are both sticking to three week intervals between first jab and booster (Neither are using the AZ jab yet though, Israel is on Pfizer and Moderna, UAE on Pfizer and Sinopharm).
    Israel obligated to do so apparently as part of the contract so they have not made a decision to do so.
    There’s definitely a wide-ranging partnership deal between Israel and Pfizer, almost like a next-phase trial in the real world, with a lot of data being collected and sent back to the manufacturer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Cheers. So UK is massively, massively ahead of any other country when it comes to second doses too.

    So essentially we're just mammothly outperforming on first doses and still doing best in class on second doses?

    And some bleat about a "gamble"?
    Well presumably the worry is that the overall success of the scheme will be reduced if the delay in second doses means it is not as effective so doing more of them won't be as good as doing more but slower, however again that seems to be a worry taking no account of the benefits of at least some level of protection for more people immediately, and reasons to believe efficiacy would not be majorly impacted.

    I'm comfortable to use the word gamble if people really want to insist on it, but not all gambles are the same, and the clear implication is this gamble has been taken without any basis for taking it, that there's no reason to believe the benefits are more likely than the negatives and it is essentially 50/50.
  • kinabalu said:

    BBC World News reporting on the EU -AZ arguments was really, really bad. Extremely one sided. Twice repeated the EU claims that they had spent billions on vaccine development and so should be given priority whilst making no mention at all of the AZ rebuttals and the actual facts of the case. Apparently this is all AZs fault. Impression given also that AZ were making money out of this.

    Well if you want the opposite skew just come on here. Put the two together and bob is your uncle.
    Not at all. The reporting on here has been far more balanced and nuanced than the BBC.

    When even Williamglenn is criticising the EU claims you know they have really dropped the ball here. Not that you would know it from the BBC.
  • kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    And people often get harsher sentences for committing crimes, which he undoubtedly did, as part of a mob/rioting, even if they did not commit the worst of offences by that mob/riot.

    I can accept 28 years does seem an awful lot, but given the context of events and the location of the riot, 5-6 also feels too low. I'd think more should be given if someone participated in the violent storming of Parliament.
    Trial and sentencing by a foreign internet forum is an interesting idea. On the plus side it can speed up justice and deliver it at far far less cost. On the down side, listening to the evidence from the defence and prosecution first might lead to better outcomes.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:



    tlg86 said:

    If the 12 week decision is a gamble, it's more akin to buying a spread betting option quite close to the floor.

    Yes, I have not speculated what the odds are on "the gamble" just expressed the view that, while there is some theoretical evidence for believing that the extended gap will work, it is not a regime used in any of the Pfizer phase 3 trials, and is against manufacturers recommendation.
    Your meaning has seemed pretty clear given your use of the term gamble and wanting people to accept it is a gamble, even when they never suggested there was no risk at all. Why else use such a term?
  • Though we're not going to need 100m AZN doses for the UK.

    So I imagine some will be donated to the third world.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Out of interest, here's the current world Covid jab top 10, according to the same site:

    Israel (49.1 jabs per 100 people)
    United Arab Emirates (27.9)
    Seychelles (21.0)
    United Kingdom (11.3)
    Bahrain (8.5, though they've not reported for about the last week)
    United States (7.1)
    Malta (5.1)
    Serbia (4.7)
    Iceland (4.5)
    Denmark (3.7)

    Romania is listed next (3.0,) so everybody else is currently below 3 per 100.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
    I sure can:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-arrest-suspect-killing-st-louis-police-captain-protest/
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/jessica-doty-whitaker-dead/
    Nope, you said

    'Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.'

    So I was asking about the people on here that you talked about.
    First of all when you said name names I thought you meant who was killed. So my misunderstanding.

    Second of all, given I am saying that people on here were NOT up in arms when these people were killed, how do I suggest I name names? They were noticeable by their absence of condemnation, not for what they said.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Incidentally here is my prediction, it took 4 months from peak deaths to "close to zero" covid deaths last year.

    I think we'll do that in 2 months this time as long as nothing phenomenally stupid is done by the government.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Sandpit said:

    stodge said:


    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.

    I'm still not convinced - we've no evidence of the efficacy of the single Pfizer vaccination at Day 50, 60 or 70. If we were to ease restrictions and it turned out those with a single vaccination were not adequately protected, I think there would be questions asked and rightly so.

    I believe Israel has carried out a much greater proportion of second vaccinations:

    https://www.jewishpress.com/news/israel/israel-surpasses-1-million-fully-vaccinated-with-both-doses/2021/01/25/

    More than half of those vaccinated have received two vaccinations - very different to the UK.

    Israel and UAE are both sticking to three week intervals between first jab and booster (Neither are using the AZ jab yet though, Israel is on Pfizer and Moderna, UAE on Pfizer and Sinopharm).
    Israel obligated to do so apparently as part of the contract so they have not made a decision to do so.
    They have no need to take such a step even if they could have. Our situation was pretty different. Their supply and stunning rollout capacity has helped too no doubt.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    @Carnyx

    Read this earlier this evening, on British recovery of crashed Yak 28 in Berlin, a very slow and deliberate recovery of pilots, radar, jet engines and airframe.

    https://vulcantothesky.org/articles/cold-war-stories-red-steer-the-firebar-affair/
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    Poland vaccinations might be grinding to a halt...

    People in Poland long appeared hesitant to get vaccinated against COVID-19. Then they saw celebrities and politicians scandalously jump the line for the jab. Now there's not enough vaccine to go around

    . . .

    Celebrity queue jumping as an offset to antivax propaganda. Nice one Harry.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
    I sure can:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-arrest-suspect-killing-st-louis-police-captain-protest/
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/jessica-doty-whitaker-dead/
    Nope, you said

    'Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.'

    So I was asking about the people on here that you talked about.
    First of all when you said name names I thought you meant who was killed. So my misunderstanding.

    Second of all, given I am saying that people on here were NOT up in arms when these people were killed, how do I suggest I name names? They were noticeable by their absence of condemnation, not for what they said.
    There were plenty of people who will have condemned it, and if there was an absence of people disagreeing with them then by that logic they must have agreed with the condemnation through their absence of comment about it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited January 2021

    This is what the AstraZeneca CEO said in April 2020:

    “We will build up capacity — we have an agreement with the [UK] government and to do this and we will prioritise the UK in terms of building this capacity."

    https://www.ft.com/content/ddf8ec8c-dc30-43b3-847e-c412704a0296

    Quite right too.

    You'd think the EU signing an agreement five months later would have been aware of that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,753
    edited January 2021
    kinabalu said:

    BBC World News reporting on the EU -AZ arguments was really, really bad. Extremely one sided. Twice repeated the EU claims that they had spent billions on vaccine development and so should be given priority whilst making no mention at all of the AZ rebuttals and the actual facts of the case. Apparently this is all AZs fault. Impression given also that AZ were making money out of this.

    Well if you want the opposite skew just come on here. Put the two together and bob is your uncle.
    Come now, PB is the home of Europe luvvin" but rationally Eurosceptic, non aligned centrist chaps who deplore violence (though unaccountably it's always Antifa violence that gets the old deplorin' juices flowing), and who seem to have an abundance of woke acquaintances to confirm one's worst fears. The truth is in here!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    MaxPB said:

    Yokes said:

    Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.

    GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
    It appears that the Government has already put some thought into cultivating this kind of research, in the form of the vaccine centre they're building near Oxford (and Imperial College is listed on the project's homepage as one of its founders.)
    This is where Kate Bingham really deserves praise. Her expertise is in identifying start-up biotech companies worth investing in and this is what (an educated guess but it fits with the facts we have) she was really brought in to do - to give rocket boosters to this sort of investment in promising companies doing the scientific research and the necessary development and scaling up and partnering with other more established companies.

    I hope so because it seems to be a worthwhile thing to do. Though @Charles would have more detailed knowledge of the sector.
    Yes, but also to sort the wheat from the chaff. She decided to invest in BioNTech and Moderna not Imperial because she was looking for best in class
    Thanks.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
    Ask anyone scaling up a new biological production facility. It never works according to theory first time. A lot of trial and error involved until the engineers can tweak it to good levels of efficiency and consistency.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    And people often get harsher sentences for committing crimes, which he undoubtedly did, as part of a mob/rioting, even if they did not commit the worst of offences by that mob/riot.

    I can accept 28 years does seem an awful lot, but given the context of events and the location of the riot, 5-6 also feels too low. I'd think more should be given if someone participated in the violent storming of Parliament.
    Trial and sentencing by a foreign internet forum is an interesting idea. On the plus side it can speed up justice and deliver it at far far less cost. On the down side, listening to the evidence from the defence and prosecution first might lead to better outcomes.
    Which is why, despite many examples of over harsh sentences in american justice, I wouldn't feel able to get compeltely outraged in this case even though the sentence is a high one. For all I know sentencing guidelines gave virtually no discretion, and they tack on 15 years if you storm a government building as opposed to a shopping mall.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Alistair said:

    Incidentally here is my prediction, it took 4 months from peak deaths to "close to zero" covid deaths last year.

    I think we'll do that in 2 months this time as long as nothing phenomenally stupid is done by the government.

    Like leaving the country mostly open to international travel without meaningful sanitary precautions?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    edited January 2021
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I have been too busy at work to follow the rather opaque shouting match between AZN and EU over what an unpublished contract shows.

    My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
    Your comments on this have come across as a bit disingenuous. You act as though no one is acknowledging any risk to the strategy and therefore you are speaking a bold truth trying to get people to accept it is a 'gamble', but who has not accepted that the choice was a calculation based on estimated risks? My reaction, which was not unique, to the plan when announced was that it was a very bad one.

    If it is less than successful you will therefore probably claim no one thought about risk, which would not be true even if their assessment of the risk proved wrong, since there clearly was assessment.

    So I don't know what point you are really trying to make. The only point seems to be that others talk about potential risks, and you wish everyone to use the word gamble.
    There are risks involved in any strategy. Risks to individuals with either regime, I think we all accept.

    What I fear though is the catastrophic risk of the extended gap. This is a risk of a major loss of confidence in vaccines in general, and also the NHS in particular. It is not just individuals at risk if the extended interval proves ineffective.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    MaxPB said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.

    Don't you mean 'another word?'
    Possibly.

    Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
    What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
    I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
    You think AZN are in the wrong here?
    I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.

    https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1354388535957196800?s=19

    And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!

    Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
    As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
    You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.

    I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
    I'd be very curious, amongst all the fire and fury about the UK's 12-week second jab policy, whether any European country has even done more second jabs than the UK have yet. I highly doubt it.

    Report earlier today that 200,000 elderly Italians in total have received the first jab. I bet more than that many elderly Brits have already received the second.

    The 12 week policy is an excellent idea, but the volume of our rollout is such that even a small proportion of seconds here is still significant compared to elsewhere.
    Currently the total for fully vaccinated are:

    UK 472k

    EU 874k

    of which

    Germany 283k
    Italy 226k
    Spain 123k
    France minimal

    https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
    Cheers. So UK is massively, massively ahead of any other country when it comes to second doses too.

    So essentially we're just mammothly outperforming on first doses and still doing best in class on second doses?

    And some bleat about a "gamble"?
    I would guess the UK will be overtaken by the end of the month by Germany and Italy though that will come at the cost of a reduction in new first doses.
    The end of the month? 4 days time?
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    kle4 said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    Can you name names please, with links please?
    I sure can:

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/david-dorn-arrest-suspect-killing-st-louis-police-captain-protest/
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/07/jessica-doty-whitaker-dead/
    Nope, you said

    'Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.'

    So I was asking about the people on here that you talked about.
    First of all when you said name names I thought you meant who was killed. So my misunderstanding.

    Second of all, given I am saying that people on here were NOT up in arms when these people were killed, how do I suggest I name names? They were noticeable by their absence of condemnation, not for what they said.
    There were plenty of people who will have condemned it, and if there was an absence of people disagreeing with them then by that logic they must have agreed with the condemnation through their absence of comment about it.
    I think the people on here who would have condemned it would have been the usual suspects including myself and probably Contrarian, maybe one or two others. But I remember thinking at the time about all the outrage about police brutality and yet very few people mentioned the ones who had been killed in riots. I think one or two people may have mentioned David Dorn but I certainly not remember any comments about the mother being shot.
  • As federal law enforcement officers sift through evidence tied to the attack on the U.S. Capitol, they have tried to determine what compelled rioters to force their way into the building. Namely, did any of them plan to kill or capture lawmakers or their staffers?

    Officials said they may have found clues to that question from one of the mob’s most distinctive figures: Jacob Anthony Chansley, the shirtless, tattooed man often referred to as “QAnon Shaman,” who stood out in a headdress made of coyote skin and buffalo horns.

    In a court filing late Thursday, federal prosecutors in Phoenix wrote that “strong evidence, including Chansley’s own words and actions at the Capitol, supports that the intent of the Capitol rioters was to capture and assassinate elected officials in the United States government.”


    https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1258007/gov.uscourts.azd.1258007.5.0.pdf

    So not a cosplaying terrorist. An actual terrorist.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    DougSeal said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    I hesitate to say this to a fellow poster as I try (and admittedly often fail) to be civil. But unless you can back up any of that post I am going to disregard it as bullshit of the crudest sort.
    Given the links to the articles, do you still think it is bullshit of the crudest sort?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Sandpit said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Agreed. 28 years is absolutely ridiculous. He’s a complete prick but as I understand it his crime is breaking and entering federal property, possibly some criminal damage.

    A custodial sentence is valid.

    Twenty eight years is not.
    Wasn’t he one of the ones walking around taking selfies, as opposed to being armed or committing any violent act against security forces?

    Difficult not to compare and contrast with the rioters and looters in Portland and Seattle last year, most of whom were let off with a slap on the wrist.
    His offence may simply be being an online loudmouth who simply happened to be very squarely in the public eye by being dressed like an absolute tit and being first into the Senate chamber, which he showed little respect for, whilst mouthing off and showing off.

    Unless there's strong evidence he had malicious intent I'd have thought the sentence would be similar to defilement of the cenotaph - aggravated trespass, criminal damage and defilement of a national monument.

    5-6 years seems about right, max. Less with good behaviour and reform. Not 28 years, FFS - and that could help fuel deep-state conspiracies
    For a lot of these people it was a game. Revolutionary cosplay. For other there was a genuine intent to kidnap and kill. Separating the two is impossible.
    And people often get harsher sentences for committing crimes, which he undoubtedly did, as part of a mob/rioting, even if they did not commit the worst of offences by that mob/riot.

    I can accept 28 years does seem an awful lot, but given the context of events and the location of the riot, 5-6 also feels too low. I'd think more should be given if someone participated in the violent storming of Parliament.
    Trial and sentencing by a foreign internet forum is an interesting idea. On the plus side it can speed up justice and deliver it at far far less cost. On the down side, listening to the evidence from the defence and prosecution first might lead to better outcomes.
    Which is why, despite many examples of over harsh sentences in american justice, I wouldn't feel able to get compeltely outraged in this case even though the sentence is a high one. For all I know sentencing guidelines gave virtually no discretion, and they tack on 15 years if you storm a government building as opposed to a shopping mall.
    Wasn't it Trump that made damaging Federal property a 10 year sentence?
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,059
    MrEd said:

    DougSeal said:

    MrEd said:

    One thing I detest about the USA justice system is these utterly biblical punishments for crimes.

    Yes, he's a nob. But it's not justice.
    Did you miss the five deaths? I imagine if five people had been killed attacking the uk parliament we’d be pretty annoyed too.
    Funnily enough, people on here didn't really mind when people were being killed defending shops against looters in the BLM riots, nor when people were being murdered for answering back to BLM supporters. I guess it's a question of priorities.
    I hesitate to say this to a fellow poster as I try (and admittedly often fail) to be civil. But unless you can back up any of that post I am going to disregard it as bullshit of the crudest sort.
    Given the links to the articles, do you still think it is bullshit of the crudest sort?
    "people on here didn't really mind ..."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Am I correct in thinking that the next likely vaccine candidates are J&J - which we ordered ahead of the EU, and Novavax, which the EU have not ordered at all (UK 60 million doses)?
This discussion has been closed.