I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
On a different - and distressing - note, nice to see our Police have nothing better to do than round up family dogs and cause distress to families - and their dogs
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Good job for Macron (and for Europe - including us) that the election is not until 2022.
How sadly ironic it would be if, having done for Trump, Covid opened the door for Le Pen.
On a different - and distressing - note, nice to see our Police have nothing better to do than round up family dogs and cause distress to families - and their dogs
The Dangerous Dogs Act is an absolute joke as is DEFRA on this sort of thing.
Oh, and it's always the poorest who get hit the hardest with this. The Police are bullies when it comes to this - they target poorer households because they know they don't have the resources to fight back.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Good job for Macron (and for Europe - including us) that the election is not until 2022.
Yes. If it were this spring, there's a very good chance he'd lose. By April 2022 - all being well - the vaccines will be everywhere and people will just be relieved. He will win.
If there is a third wave (god preserve us), or some other disaster, then the door is open for Le Pen. French resistance to vaccines might be an issue
Out of curiosity, where is GSKs production capacity. I am sure they have vaccine active ingredient capabilities in the UK. I would guess fill capacity is less of an issue round the globe.
GSK is not a big producer of vaccines, it's a shame that they partnered with Sanofi instead of Imperial University. There's still an opportunity for the latter to happen, I really hope that with Sanofi declaring defeat that GSK is asked by the government to pick up the Imperial mRNA vaccine, we need a domestic mRNA biotechnology industry.
GSK is quite a large vaccine manufacturer. The HPV vaccine, for example, was developed by them.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
Er, no. They have their contract. We also are not flush with vaccines either. Supply is tight.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
We're not overflowing with it ourselves, as far as we know - and there are many places in the world presumably with none at all. Who does it go to? Their need is clearly particularly acute, but we're still right in it ourselves and using up as much as we can every week.
The instinct is nice, and everyone seems agreed that we can and should supply large amounts of vaccine that we've secured to the world, but is it callous not to do that right now?
A suspicious person might see a subtle implication that as the joint procurement was set up to avoid vaccine nationalism, it is the UK's fault that the EU has made accusations at all, since if we were part of it they would not need to make any accusations.
I would tell that suspicious person to do one.
Well I'll not be coy then - he says the procurement programme was designed to avoid this sort of thing, that being a situation where the EU is accusing the UK of stealing its vaccines. It's a pretty straight line to therefore thinking that if we had been part of the EU scheme, the accusations would not have occured. From someone who has been manipulating data to make points he wants to make, I'm inclined to be suspicious of his motivations. As has been shown today, one can be very pro-EU without needing to find other culprits for their reaction.
The fundamental problem with that argument is we got cracking whilst the EU were still talking. The first UK activity began a year ago, and the Vaccine Task Force was launched in April, and we have spent a fortune to accelerate things. We shouldn't have joined the EU scheme, they should have done like us.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Good job for Macron (and for Europe - including us) that the election is not until 2022.
I'm sure he'll be fine. But she keeps knocking at that door.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
Steep learning curve. They were not traditionally a bulk vaccine manufacturer - but as we know, were chosen, as the government understandably wanted a UK manufacturer.
Well at least some people are open about their problem. Its a conspiracy against Europe by the perfidious Albion.
The European Parliament is a sideshow. The Commission is far more powerful. Though ultimately if it kicks off then the member states can bring it to heel if they pull on the choke chain in a united fashion.
The AZ vaccine was developed at a British university with British Government funding. If the AZ CEO is telling the facts as they are, then the contractual situation is also watertight. If the EU hasn't a legal leg to stand on, then it can only do something really stupid (like respond to Britain's advantageous position w.r.t. the Oxford vaccine by confiscating our orders for Pfizer to fill some of the gaps in its own programmes) by explicitly forcing Pfizer to break its contractual terms with the UK Government - which would compel the British people to pay in blood and treasure for the Commission's mistakes.
That would cause severe damage to the EU's reputation for upholding the rule of law. It could also be regarded as a hostile act, which would imperil the entire Western alliance.
Now, the EU can either be sensible, take the hit for its mistakes like everyone has had to do from time to time in this pandemic, and perhaps sack the Health Commissioner for being useless. Or it can respond to a perilous world of insecurity on its eastern and southern boundaries by making an enemy out of the United Kingdom and shooting NATO in the head. Their choice.
Although I’m not yet quite 70, I was vaccinated (AZ) today. [My GP’s surgery sent a text at 1p.m. saying I could make an appointment at a centre in London today if I called the surgery today -- which I did.] I’m pleased to have had my first dose, of course. But given that I had to take underground trains and buses, and to join one after another queue at the centre, I couldn’t help thinking that my chance of getting infected with the virus today must be 100-fold greater than on any normal-for-me locked-down day, Has anyone doing the sums/predictions considered the extent to which the vaccine programme may be contributing to the spread?, I wonder.
First, congratulations.
Second, you raise a VERY good point re: travel & etc to get the jab. When I go for my own dose (so to speak) will be taking a city bus to & from a LARGE medical center. AND will be wearing an N95 mask to do so; the only time I wear one of those is on public transit & other crowded situation. Which I'm able to mostly avoid.
One advantage we have in America (in this regard at least) is PLENTY of people have their own cars & thus personal transport for themselves & their families.
Last note on the meeting, on mutations they kept coming back to the same point over and over again, the fewer infections there are, the fewer infected people there are, the less virus there is in bloodstreams, the less chance there is of a serious mutation. They explained to me in terms of maths which I think a lot of people will find helpful here:
A virus has a 1 in 1m chance of mutating during the replication process in a cell. In a country if you have 1m people infected you give the virus a huge chance of mutating everyday and it leads to a high number of individual mutations that can eventually lead to a random chance that causes vaccine resistance. If in the same country only 100 people are infected there is almost no opportunity for the virus to mutate as it can only do so during replication process.
They say that the virus has mutated seriously in the UK, SA, Brazil, California, Belgium and Spain isn't a surprise because all of these countries have got a lot of virus in circulation. They think that Europe has seen a number of slightly more infectious versions similar to the Kent variant but lack of monitoring means we'll never know. It's been impossible to convince European governments to invest in monitoring as the UK has done, many prefer the approach of not knowing because they can't be targeted for travel bans that way.
Edit: the point being that they backed the government stance on jabbing as many people as possible because it would help to reduce the number of events and therefore chances of a serious mutation. They think the government scientists are also using this same modelling for justification.
"many prefer the approach of not knowing because they can't be targeted for travel bans that way". And there you have why this virus is running riot. Fingers in ears, eyes firmly closed, airports open...
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
The reaction of my Group 4 friend who got jabbed 2 weeks ago was interesting - he said he felt as though an enormous weight had been lifted from his shoulders - he's well aware he could still catch it, it could still kill him, and he won't have decent immunity for a while - so he's staying very careful - but he has had a real sense of relief.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
Or maybe manufacturing such a vaccine to the standard required in record quantities and in record time is a complicated matter, prone to inevitable delays and complications ......
It is indeed, but throughout AZN have overpromised, even compared to other vaccine companies.
Steep learning curve. They were not traditionally a bulk vaccine manufacturer - but as we know, were chosen, as the government understandably wanted a UK manufacturer.
Besides which, bleating about their under-delivery is, may one venture to suggest, more than a little churlish - Oxford-AstraZeneca being one of the leading trio of vaccines brought into service in the West, and with some of the other projects having already fallen severely behind schedule or failed altogether.
One of the very encouraging things Pascal Soriot said is that even in the pessimistic scenarios about vaccine effectiveness, the immune response is stronger than actually having had the virus.
They might also have a word with the Germans about the spread of alarmist false nonsense about the vaccine.
Don't you mean 'another word?'
Possibly.
Were I AZ I'd be livid about those reports. Not just damaging to the vaccine and the company and the integrity of its scientists but to the cause of vaccination.
What do you reckon, 10% of their $130bn market cap as the AZ legal team’s first settlement offer to the EU?
I don't think the EU wants that much from AZN.
You think AZN are in the wrong here?
I have no idea, I don't think the contracts are in the public domain. Politico seems to thing they include obligations to deliver.
And as we know, AZN has form in not delivering on schedule. A month ago it was us!
Hm, the EU vaccine apologist? I think consensus is that the contract will include the boiler plate stuff about "best effort" basis, and that the EU's pleads regarding morality etc. show how weak their legal position is. You are correct about the delays affecting everyone though.
As no one has seen the contract apart from the parties themselves, it is just speculation. Certainly AZN is developing a reputation as an unreliable supplier.
You really are a piece of work, Foxy. I appreciate everything you do for the NHS, don't get me wrong, but you're repeating these falsehoods and muddying the waters based on your personal political agenda. All of your bleating about the single jab policy, all of your rubbish over the last few days clearly supporting the EU despite their complete unreasonableness, it's beyond the pale.
I suggest you have a think your position and apparently blind love of the EU.
I have been too busy at work to follow the rather opaque shouting match between AZN and EU over what an unpublished contract shows.
My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
We're not overflowing with it ourselves, as far as we know - and there are many places in the world presumably with none at all. Who does it go to? Their need is clearly particularly acute, but we're still right in it ourselves and using up as much as we can every week.
The instinct is nice, and everyone seems agreed that we can and should supply large amounts of vaccine that we've secured to the world, but is it callous not to do that right now?
I agree, it was just an instant reaction to the news from Spain.
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
They are part of the EU - let Germany donate some of theirs.
The EU is trying to fuck us over - they can sort themselves out for now.
Once our people are safe we can help others - but I would suggest the poorer nations are a more worthy recipient of our aid.
That headline almost seems designed to annoy people in the EU who dont have enough vaccine. Crass IMO.
Actually, my guess it that is meant to cheer up the Brits. It is not remotely aimed at the EU. It is a bit of patriotic boosterism. Good news. We have so much vaccine soon we can give it away!
Good news can often sell as well as bad news. Or even better. Papers sell out when a British sporting team does something amazing.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting.
One of the very encouraging things Pascal Soriot said is that even in the pessimistic scenarios about vaccine effectiveness, the immune response is stronger than actually having had the virus.
My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
I do have some sympathy with your evident blindspot on what you call the 'gamble' of the extended interval. Doctors are intensively and rightly trained to give the best treatment or protection to the patient in front of them. And, yes, considering a patient in front of you about to receive a vaccine, all your training prompts you to follow the letter of the manufacturer's recommendation, which is based on properly-conducted clinical trials.
The trouble is that, in this unusual circumstance, it's not just about the patient in front of you, it's also about her husband or sister or cousin who is going to get absolutely certain zero protection in exchange for the off-chance that the patient in front of you gets a (probably marginal) higher protection. Quite how you manage to do the mental gymnastics of calling the delayed second dose a 'gamble', as an insult, whilst totally ignoring the gamble of leaving someone else completely unprotected, is an exercise for the reader.
After speaking to the expert today on this subject I'm more convinced that before that this is the correct strategy. They were very convincing on the subject of mutations and potential events. Even partial immunity will reduce the number of events where we could expect serious mutations to occur (prolonged infection) meaning a significantly reduced chance of having any.
Again, this person is a scientist so doesn't have the same ethical issues over protecting the wider country vs giving individual patients the best protection (which they think is why the BMA and doctors are so exercised by it, they have ethical issues with not giving their patients the best available protection).
Thanks for your notes on your meeting - very interesting, and makes good sense.
Incidentally, you said upthread that we don't have a contract with Novavax, but I think we do. Certainly there were heads of terms agreed in August, and there was also this:
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting.
Rioting in a specific and limited way.
Go on, do "present but not involved" as well - you know you want to.
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
Precisely if we have spare we help those most in need not those with crap governments because the population happens to be the right colour
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
Or quivering in a flat listening out for police sirens presaging the onslaught of the mob. Funny how rioting affects folk.
My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
I do have some sympathy with your evident blindspot on what you call the 'gamble' of the extended interval. Doctors are intensively and rightly trained to give the best treatment or protection to the patient in front of them. And, yes, considering a patient in front of you about to receive a vaccine, all your training prompts you to follow the letter of the manufacturer's recommendation, which is based on properly-conducted clinical trials.
The trouble is that, in this unusual circumstance, it's not just about the patient in front of you, it's also about her husband or sister or cousin who is going to get absolutely certain zero protection in exchange for the off-chance that the patient in front of you gets a (probably marginal) higher protection. Quite how you manage to do the mental gymnastics of calling the delayed second dose a 'gamble', as an insult, whilst totally ignoring the gamble of leaving someone else completely unprotected, is an exercise for the reader.
After speaking to the expert today on this subject I'm more convinced that before that this is the correct strategy. They were very convincing on the subject of mutations and potential events. Even partial immunity will reduce the number of events where we could expect serious mutations to occur (prolonged infection) meaning a significantly reduced chance of having any.
Again, this person is a scientist so doesn't have the same ethical issues over protecting the wider country vs giving individual patients the best protection (which they think is why the BMA and doctors are so exercised by it, they have ethical issues with not giving their patients the best available protection).
Thanks for your notes on your meeting - very interesting, and makes good sense.
Incidentally, you said upthread that we don't have a contract with Novavax, but I think we do. Certainly there were heads of terms agreed in August, and there was also this:
"The NIHR-supported Novavax Phase 3 COVID-19 vaccine trial has achieved its recruitment target just two months after opening in the UK - with 15,203 volunteers from across the country recruited in record time.
The UK was the first country in the world to undertake and deliver a phase 3 trial for the Novavax vaccine. A phase 2b trial is currently underway in South Africa - with 4,422 volunteers taking part. While Novavax expects its pivotal phase 3 clinical trial in the United States and Mexico to begin in the coming weeks. In total, nearly 20,000 participants around the world have already been dosed.
More than 25 percent of enrollees in the trial are over the age of 65, while a large proportion of volunteers had underlying medical conditions generally representative of the population.
Interim data from this event-driven trial are expected as soon as early first quarter 2021, although the timing depends on the overall COVID-19 rate in the region. These data are expected to serve as the basis for licensure application in the U.K., European Union and other countries.
The UK government has already secured 60 million doses of the Novavax NVX-CoV2373 vaccine, provided it meets standards on safety, effectiveness and quality following publication of results."
My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
I do have some sympathy with your evident blindspot on what you call the 'gamble' of the extended interval. Doctors are intensively and rightly trained to give the best treatment or protection to the patient in front of them. And, yes, considering a patient in front of you about to receive a vaccine, all your training prompts you to follow the letter of the manufacturer's recommendation, which is based on properly-conducted clinical trials.
The trouble is that, in this unusual circumstance, it's not just about the patient in front of you, it's also about her husband or sister or cousin who is going to get absolutely certain zero protection in exchange for the off-chance that the patient in front of you gets a (probably marginal) higher protection. Quite how you manage to do the mental gymnastics of calling the delayed second dose a 'gamble', as an insult, whilst totally ignoring the gamble of leaving someone else completely unprotected, is an exercise for the reader.
After speaking to the expert today on this subject I'm more convinced that before that this is the correct strategy. They were very convincing on the subject of mutations and potential events. Even partial immunity will reduce the number of events where we could expect serious mutations to occur (prolonged infection) meaning a significantly reduced chance of having any.
Again, this person is a scientist so doesn't have the same ethical issues over protecting the wider country vs giving individual patients the best protection (which they think is why the BMA and doctors are so exercised by it, they have ethical issues with not giving their patients the best available protection).
Thanks for your notes on your meeting - very interesting, and makes good sense.
Incidentally, you said upthread that we don't have a contract with Novavax, but I think we do. Certainly there were heads of terms agreed in August, and there was also this:
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Good job for Macron (and for Europe - including us) that the election is not until 2022.
I'm sure he'll be fine. But she keeps knocking at that door.
My views on the gamble of the extended interval for the Pfizer is widely shared, and indeed the policy of the WHO, USA, Israel, and elsewhere. As I have repeatedly said, it may well be a successful gamble, but it is a gamble. There has been no trial of that as a treatment protocol.
I do have some sympathy with your evident blindspot on what you call the 'gamble' of the extended interval. Doctors are intensively and rightly trained to give the best treatment or protection to the patient in front of them. And, yes, considering a patient in front of you about to receive a vaccine, all your training prompts you to follow the letter of the manufacturer's recommendation, which is based on properly-conducted clinical trials.
The trouble is that, in this unusual circumstance, it's not just about the patient in front of you, it's also about her husband or sister or cousin who is going to get absolutely certain zero protection in exchange for the off-chance that the patient in front of you gets a (probably marginal) higher protection. Quite how you manage to do the mental gymnastics of calling the delayed second dose a 'gamble', as an insult, whilst totally ignoring the gamble of leaving someone else completely unprotected, is an exercise for the reader.
After speaking to the expert today on this subject I'm more convinced that before that this is the correct strategy. They were very convincing on the subject of mutations and potential events. Even partial immunity will reduce the number of events where we could expect serious mutations to occur (prolonged infection) meaning a significantly reduced chance of having any.
Again, this person is a scientist so doesn't have the same ethical issues over protecting the wider country vs giving individual patients the best protection (which they think is why the BMA and doctors are so exercised by it, they have ethical issues with not giving their patients the best available protection).
Thanks for your notes on your meeting - very interesting, and makes good sense.
Incidentally, you said upthread that we don't have a contract with Novavax, but I think we do. Certainly there were heads of terms agreed in August, and there was also this:
This report, issued by the Vaccines Task Force in December, lists those vaccines for which orders have been placed, and this does indeed include 60m doses of the Novavax candidate.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
They are part of the EU - let Germany donate some of theirs.
The EU is trying to fuck us over - they can sort themselves out for now.
Once our people are safe we can help others - but I would suggest the poorer nations are a more worthy recipient of our aid.
EU advocates were boasting - BOASTING - recently how much "better value for money" the EU vaccine procurement was and how little money the EU were spending on vaccines.
This is the reason the EU are struggling, there's no great conspiracy here.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
On this occasion I agree with Leon. Regarding terrorist anti-vaxxers and Capitol rioters. In both cases it is manslaughter. I appreciate there is a difference when stealing bottles of water.
Once we've got everyone jabbed up who wants it in the UK (And even hopefully some reluctantly persuaded), we can use our left over stock for trade or aid or even future supply for the covid vaccines we may need in the future.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines
Perhaps the differing performances of Kate Bingham and Dido Harding also says something about the respective domestic strength of their industries in the UK. The British tech sector has quite a lot of Dido Hardings in my experience.
Once we've got everyone jabbed up who wants it in the UK (And even hopefully some reluctantly persuaded), we can use our left over stock for trade or aid or even future supply for the covid vaccines we may need in the future.
It should be as aid to third world countries no strings attached
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
As much as it has huffed and puffed, the EU seems to have few recourses against AstraZeneca. The contract it signed is not public, but another one, thought to be similar, is. It suggests that vaccine suppliers hold all the cards in case of delays. Pascal Soriot, boss of AstraZeneca, said the deal his firm signed with the EU was “not a commitment” to Europe, merely a promise to try to supply doses quickly.
Hence the explosive idea from Mr Spahn to curb exports. Such an approach would jar with European proclamations of the importance of free trade, and of sharing vaccine supplies beyond the rich world. Others despaired. How could the EU credibly deal with protectionism by, say, India if it used export controls itself as a first resort in a scrap over vaccines, wondered one diplomat. “We feared a Singapore-on-Thames [in the shape of post-Brexit Britain]; these ideas are turning us into Cuba-on-the-Seine.”
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
With particular regard to contracts - if the AZ contracts with the UK and EU are ever disclosed publicly, it will be fascinating to see if the terms in the UK contract are indeed as you venture to guess they are.
I seem to recall that one of the many criticisms of Brexit was that the EU had superior lawyers and would run rings around the British negotiators. It would be somewhat ironic if it turned out that, having turned down the opportunity to join the EU scheme as a result of Brexit, the UK Government had got to AZ first *AND* secured a firm commitment to everything that it wanted, whereas the European Commission came late to the party and had to make do with an aspiration.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
If we are to be justified in rioting to the extent of attempting to overthrow democratic structures, then I think by that point the government will have already been doing far worse things than having overly harsh sentences for rioters.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
Shoot 'em. then
The shopping riot people or the rioters in a good cause? Would you go back in time for example and shoot all the people who ended up beheading charles? or ceaucescu etc.?
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
If we are to be justified in rioting to the extent of attempting to overthrow democratic structures, then I think by that point the government will have already been doing far worse things than having overly harsh sentences for rioters.
The point I was making harsh sentences for rioters that are unjustified makes it more difficult to riot justifiably when things do need changing. This is why we see states that really are over the top get to keep their dominance because the penalty for insubordination is so unjust that movements are hard to start
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
The booze is not helping you.
Thanks, I'll take that rare and unusual advice on board.
Perhaps you could avail us of your experience? How are you finding lockdown, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically?
These are genuine questions. I find personal reactions to this unprecedented crisis quite absorbing and enlightening.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
On this occasion I agree with Leon. Regarding terrorist anti-vaxxers and Capitol rioters. In both cases it is manslaughter. I appreciate there is a difference when stealing bottles of water.
Can you explain to me the long-term benefit to a) the United States and b) this individual's rehabilitation to locking him up 20 years rather than two?
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting.
Rioting in a specific and limited way.
Go on, do "present but not involved" as well - you know you want to.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
How much do you think EU procurement has been derailed by "vaccine nationalism" in the shape of France & Sanofi? I've read some comment that French pressure may have delayed AZ order to secure a bigger deal for Sanofi.....
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
With particular regard to contracts - if the AZ contracts with the UK and EU are ever disclosed publicly, it will be fascinating to see if the terms in the UK contract are indeed as you venture to guess they are.
I seem to recall that one of the many criticisms of Brexit was that the EU had superior lawyers and would run rings around the British negotiators. It would be somewhat ironic if it turned out that, having turned down the opportunity to join the EU scheme as a result of Brexit, the UK Government had got to AZ first *AND* secured a firm commitment to everything that it wanted, whereas the European Commission came late to the party and had to make do with an aspiration.
We're both making do with aspirations; the problem is that what Astra are trying to do is difficult, not that the contract is in their favour. The EC will likely know their position is weak and is acting mostly for effect and public consumption.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
Shoot 'em. then
The shopping riot people or the rioters in a good cause? Would you go back in time for example and shoot all the people who ended up beheading charles? or ceaucescu etc.?
I was being flippant.
In seriousness, I believe it was justified to give the English water-stealers an exemplary year or two in jail, just as it is justified to give the QAnon Viking guy 30 years.
The context is all, and - sadly for the criminals involved - the context is terrible, and sometimes a democratic society needs to make an example, so it never happens again.
A huge, enraged mob, however chaotic, made a decent attempt to overthrow the democratically elected US government. FFS, you can't treat them like average trespassers. In many (most?) countries they would now be dead. I am quite surprised they weren't mown down on the day
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
They are part of the EU - let Germany donate some of theirs.
The EU is trying to fuck us over - they can sort themselves out for now.
Once our people are safe we can help others - but I would suggest the poorer nations are a more worthy recipient of our aid.
EU advocates were boasting - BOASTING - recently how much "better value for money" the EU vaccine procurement was and how little money the EU were spending on vaccines.
This is the reason the EU are struggling, there's no great conspiracy here.
I will say it as a 'Hardcore Remoaner':
The EU vaccine rollout is a shambles and in this key case we are better off out. It really is that simple.
I wonder if one positive side effect of the EU’s desperate grab for vaccines might be to increase the eventual take up of vaccination in Europe, on the no publicity is bad publicity principle ?
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
The booze is not helping you.
Thanks, I'll take that rare and unusual advice on board.
Perhaps you could avail us of your experience? How are you finding lockdown, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically?
These are genuine questions. I find personal reactions to this unprecedented crisis quite absorbing and enlightening.
I'm doing rather well, thank you. The biggest improvement to my mental health in recent years came after I stopped looking at Twitter every day. Anabobazina's advice the the soundest thing I've read on these pages all week. Twitter makes people of all political stripes anxious, angry, and tribal. I see quite a few friends and family members suffering from it.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
Shoot 'em. then
The shopping riot people or the rioters in a good cause? Would you go back in time for example and shoot all the people who ended up beheading charles? or ceaucescu etc.?
I was being flippant.
In seriousness, I believe it was justified to give the English water-stealers an exemplary year or two in jail, just as it is justified to give the QAnon Viking guy 30 years.
The context is all, and - sadly for the criminals involved - the context is terrible, and sometimes a democratic society needs to make an example, so it never happens again.
A huge, enraged mob, however chaotic, made a decent attempt to overthrow the democratically elected US government. FFS, you can't treat them like average trespassers. In many (most?) countries they would now be dead. I am quite surprised they weren't mown down on the day
What makes a country democratic though
Russia has elections I don't need to elaborate here
America has elections and I think most would agree it it a pretty flawed democracy
The uk has elections many would argue that the majority did not vote for our government and would have preferred something else.
I am not claiming any are true or false I am merely asking who judges the point where a country crosses the line between democratic and not. I am the first to say I cant say where the line is
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
On this occasion I agree with Leon. Regarding terrorist anti-vaxxers and Capitol rioters. In both cases it is manslaughter. I appreciate there is a difference when stealing bottles of water.
Can you explain to me the long-term benefit to a) the United States and b) this individual's rehabilitation to locking him up 20 years rather than two?
The United States' obsession with draconian judicial sentencing is counterproductive. We have only scratched the surface in this thread.
a) Sedition. b) De-programming takes time.
Extra bit. The US obsession with draconian sentencing for trivialities is counter productive. Steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and they make you King.
I think the first country we should offer excess vaccine too is probably Ireland, we have a (rightfully) open border with them, and it'd undermine NI's and eventually GB's efforts if they weren't vaccinated too.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
How much do you think EU procurement has been derailed by "vaccine nationalism" in the shape of France & Sanofi? I've read some comment that French pressure may have delayed AZ order to secure a bigger deal for Sanofi.....
There is "vaccine nationalism", but that's true of us too (we ordered lots of AZN/Oxford but virtually no Moderna), the EU (where CureVac and Sanofi got big orders), the US (rapid approval of Moderna but still haven't approved AZN/Oxford) and Australia (which was the only purchaser of the failed University of Queensland vaccine).
I wonder if one positive side effect of the EU’s desperate grab for vaccines might be to increase the eventual take up of vaccination in Europe, on the no publicity is bad publicity principle ?
I made the same point yesterday, but on the scarcity principle. If people are told they can't have it, or there is too little for everyone to have it, everyone will want it.
I think the first country we should offer excess vaccine too is probably Ireland, we have a (rightfully) open border with them, and it'd undermine NI's and eventually GB's efforts if they weren't vaccinated too.
That is purely in utilitarian terms however, once our population is vaccinated we are in no danger from eu citizens or at most 5% are. Ireland is still relatively rich in comparison to for example somalia...Let us instead help those least able to help themselves
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
The booze is not helping you.
Thanks, I'll take that rare and unusual advice on board.
Perhaps you could avail us of your experience? How are you finding lockdown, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically?
These are genuine questions. I find personal reactions to this unprecedented crisis quite absorbing and enlightening.
I'm doing rather well, thank you. The biggest improvement to my mental health in recent years came after I stopped looking at Twitter every day. Anabobazina's advice the the soundest thing I've read on these pages all week. Twitter makes people of all political stripes anxious, angry, and tribal. I see quite a few friends and family members suffering from it.
I used to have a Twitter account. Got rid of it a couple of years ago. Whilst I used it mainly to gather news, facts and follow sensible commentators, it can nonetheless allow a drip drip effect of pretty extreme partisan anger in through your computer. It's really not very nice at all. Anti-social media in general is bad like that.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
How much do you think EU procurement has been derailed by "vaccine nationalism" in the shape of France & Sanofi? I've read some comment that French pressure may have delayed AZ order to secure a bigger deal for Sanofi.....
There is "vaccine nationalism", but that's true of us too (we ordered lots of AZN/Oxford but virtually no Moderna), the EU (where CureVac and Sanofi got big orders), the US (rapid approval of Moderna but still haven't approved AZN/Oxford) and Australia (which was the only purchaser of the failed University of Queensland vaccine).
Didn't we order no Moderna due to the fact that Trump had signed 100% of Moderna until April?
We signed everything else.
Worth noting too that 100mn of Oxford/AZN cost peanuts on a Covid-scale, so well worth gambling on.
When research is going on then a bit of nationalism by "purchasing" your own universities/manufacturers vaccine makes sense, its essentially funding the research but getting a quid pro quo back if the research pays out. Like a nationalised Kickstarter.
Where nationalism goes wrong is when you reject other countries because you exclusively want your own.
If the Government hasn't done it already, then they really ought to send armed guards to some of these key facilities. Just to dissuade any more serious nonsense.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
Yes. This is like production of the first US nukes towards the end of WW2. In all seriousness. Send in the army. Guard it to hell.
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
Be careful what you wish for, those riots were worth suppressing because they were full of idiots with no more aim than "its not fair I can't afford a 100£ pair of sneakers" hence them being called the shopping riots
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
Shoot 'em. then
The shopping riot people or the rioters in a good cause? Would you go back in time for example and shoot all the people who ended up beheading charles? or ceaucescu etc.?
I was being flippant.
In seriousness, I believe it was justified to give the English water-stealers an exemplary year or two in jail, just as it is justified to give the QAnon Viking guy 30 years.
The context is all, and - sadly for the criminals involved - the context is terrible, and sometimes a democratic society needs to make an example, so it never happens again.
A huge, enraged mob, however chaotic, made a decent attempt to overthrow the democratically elected US government. FFS, you can't treat them like average trespassers. In many (most?) countries they would now be dead. I am quite surprised they weren't mown down on the day
Had they been Black, or even black, I have no doubt they would have been.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Yes, having that light at the end of the tunnel is a huge deal for my mental state and for a lot of others I know. I now have an end date to this horrible half existence we've all been forced into, it's not close for someone my age but it's there and I can see it on the horizon.
In Europe it must be awful, there's a neverending bad news cycle on vaccines whether it's supply or anti-vaxxers. There's just no light at the end of the tunnel for anyone under the age of 70.
Yes, I've typed my postcode, age, et al, into the Times computer, and they say I should be vaxxed by March, possibly early March the way things are going in London.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
It is happening.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
Thankyou. I am generally in good mental health, but - like all of us? - I have bad days during lockdown. They seem to come out of nowhere. As a humble dildo flint knapper with a good income I am luckier than most. My work endures like my income. I live alone but have plenty of friends to meet outdoors. plus kids I bubble with.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
The booze is not helping you.
Thanks, I'll take that rare and unusual advice on board.
Perhaps you could avail us of your experience? How are you finding lockdown, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically?
These are genuine questions. I find personal reactions to this unprecedented crisis quite absorbing and enlightening.
I'm doing rather well, thank you. The biggest improvement to my mental health in recent years came after I stopped looking at Twitter every day. Anabobazina's advice the the soundest thing I've read on these pages all week. Twitter makes people of all political stripes anxious, angry, and tribal. I see quite a few friends and family members suffering from it.
I used to have a Twitter account. Got rid of it a couple of years ago. Whilst I used it mainly to gather news, facts and follow sensible commentators, it can nonetheless allow a drip drip effect of pretty extreme partisan anger in through your computer. It's really not very nice at all. Anti-social media in general is bad like that.
Congratulations you saw the light. However most of those who are vociferous about the perils of social media and the viewpoints it peddles are generally people who use social media and what they really mean is people should not be able to publish stuff I don't like.
The human race would be on the whole better of if most people rejected most forms of social media
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
But not the big political gesture as it would be to answer the EU call.
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
But not the big political gesture as it would be to answer the EU call.
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
I think the rapid vaccine roll out is the one thing keeping the lid on public unrest in the UK. We have a terrible death rate, a nearly-crushed NHS, and significant daily cases (albeit, finally, falling). The economy is cratered, many are suffering, impoverishment beckons for the nation.
However, we have this one precious thing. Hope. Provided by the excellent vaccine programme. And hope is worth more than almost anything. We see a way out, so we endure, and grit our teeth. We've had a shit plague, compared to most countries, but spring is not far away.
Now imagine Britain WITHOUT a massive, successful vaccine programme.
Wow.
It is no wonder there have been huge riots in Holland. Will Spain avoid the same? France? Madame Le Pen could win at this rate. Her victory will be the French riot, the storming of the Elysee a la QAnon. That 52:48 French prez elex poll is a dire augury.
Reading this, I feel like we ought to donate some of our vaccine to Spain if they've completely run out. It seems a bit callous not to.
They are part of the EU - let Germany donate some of theirs.
The EU is trying to fuck us over - they can sort themselves out for now.
Once our people are safe we can help others - but I would suggest the poorer nations are a more worthy recipient of our aid.
EU advocates were boasting - BOASTING - recently how much "better value for money" the EU vaccine procurement was and how little money the EU were spending on vaccines.
The thread header is entitled "A Glimmer of Hope?".
One thing is clear. If we had let the LibDems run the Vaccine Task Force, we would be in total & utter darkness.
There would be many 70+ year olds with absolutely nothing to look forward to, except a very grim few months.
The contributions by prominent LibDems on this blog today have been little short of bewildering. Bluster about the size of the EU and how it will get its way, scaremongering about delaying the second jab, elementary errors of maths and science from people with no evident skills or training in anything other than Libdemmery.
And one of them libelled me as English, as well.
Like the electorate at large, I have concluded the LibDems should only be allowed to organise very simple, straightforward & unimportant matters -- like the rota for the apple harvest in Camberwick Green.
And I would not be wholly sure that the LibDems could get that right.
Probably Wera would set up a focus group to study whether 5G causes apples to become radioactive.
Without vaccine, the third wave is going to rip through the EU for the next couple of months at least. We are starting to get to the point where shit got serious last year - the weather won't come to their aid for a while yet.
Their economies are going to be a mess too. Until they do get through it, they are going to need money. Huge amounts of money. The ECB is going to have to dig deep. Again.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
How much do you think EU procurement has been derailed by "vaccine nationalism" in the shape of France & Sanofi? I've read some comment that French pressure may have delayed AZ order to secure a bigger deal for Sanofi.....
There is "vaccine nationalism", but that's true of us too (we ordered lots of AZN/Oxford but virtually no Moderna), the EU (where CureVac and Sanofi got big orders), the US (rapid approval of Moderna but still haven't approved AZN/Oxford) and Australia (which was the only purchaser of the failed University of Queensland vaccine).
That may be pushing it slightly. On the one hand, we ordered 100m Oxford/AZN. One the other, we also ordered 60m GSK/Sanofi and 40m Pfizer/BioNtech. The Government carefully selected a suite of potential winners, not all of which were UK-made (I think it grabbed what it could of Moderna late in the day, but the other six were all large orders placed well in advance,) and spent a ton of cash on each of them. The result is that it looks like we've already got two successes with more potentially on the way soon, and nobody cares about the failure. The approach seems to have worked quite well.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
The expert was also extremely impressed by the vaccine taskforce. They said the UK could become a world leader in vaccine technology and manufacturing within a year if the government keeps it up. They said it would be a net good for the world to have the UK interested in vaccines again as the UK is a reliable investor in vaccines for the developing world.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
How much do you think EU procurement has been derailed by "vaccine nationalism" in the shape of France & Sanofi? I've read some comment that French pressure may have delayed AZ order to secure a bigger deal for Sanofi.....
There is "vaccine nationalism", but that's true of us too (we ordered lots of AZN/Oxford but virtually no Moderna), the EU (where CureVac and Sanofi got big orders), the US (rapid approval of Moderna but still haven't approved AZN/Oxford) and Australia (which was the only purchaser of the failed University of Queensland vaccine).
Didn't we order no Moderna due to the fact that Trump had signed 100% of Moderna until April?
We signed everything else.
Worth noting too that 100mn of Oxford/AZN cost peanuts on a Covid-scale, so well worth gambling on.
I don't know re Moderna - it's certainly possible. We've done a really good job, and the government deserves a massive amount of credit.
But we could have done even better: we could have paid Pfizer and AZN and co to build new vaccine production facilities in the UK, and we could and should have paid them to have 100 million doses produced and available to us by the end of last year.
The EU has performed execrably: it's been an abject lesson in the dangers of having those making the decisions (the Commission) unaccountable to voters.
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
But not the big political gesture as it would be to answer the EU call.
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
The correct answer is fuck off you gits
No. Never say that in a position like this. Got to play it long, work together
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines
Perhaps the differing performances of Kate Bingham and Dido Harding also says something about the respective domestic strength of their industries in the UK. The British tech sector has quite a lot of Dido Hardings in my experience.
Was it ever discovered which specific part of HMG was briefing against Bingham last year?
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
But not the big political gesture as it would be to answer the EU call.
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
No. My answer is f*** off.
We paid billions of pounds more for the vaccine than they did and now they wonder why they don't have it? They're first world countries, they should have bloody paid for it! Its not rocket science and its not a natural disaster.
Plus of course anything we donate would massively hurt the UK but get no gratitude when its divided around the EU. Say we donate 4 million of our stocks, the next fortnight's rollout. We now lose a fortnight rolling out - and that 4 million gets prorata'd around the EU to be the equivalent of 600k [at our size population] per country. Nice for them to have, but not something that will change the situation for them dramatically.
We need tens of millions, they need hundreds of millions. The maths doesn't work. They should have paid for the vaccine upfront and there's no way to bridge the gap to make up for the fact they screwed up.
I'll feel really happy if it turns out, as it seems, that the first big good gesture in the new UK-EU relationship is a big helping hand from the UK.
We should give them nothing vaccine wise. We should give any spare to africa, the middle east or south america. The EU is rich enough to buy its own not our fault they screwed the pooch
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
But not the big political gesture as it would be to answer the EU call.
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
I would expect the public to be furious and even more so at any politician who agreed to this
Comments
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The Dangerous Dogs Act is an absolute joke as is DEFRA on this sort of thing.
If there is a third wave (god preserve us), or some other disaster, then the door is open for Le Pen. French resistance to vaccines might be an issue
The HPV vaccine, for example, was developed by them.
The instinct is nice, and everyone seems agreed that we can and should supply large amounts of vaccine that we've secured to the world, but is it callous not to do that right now?
They were not traditionally a bulk vaccine manufacturer - but as we know, were chosen, as the government understandably wanted a UK manufacturer.
The AZ vaccine was developed at a British university with British Government funding. If the AZ CEO is telling the facts as they are, then the contractual situation is also watertight. If the EU hasn't a legal leg to stand on, then it can only do something really stupid (like respond to Britain's advantageous position w.r.t. the Oxford vaccine by confiscating our orders for Pfizer to fill some of the gaps in its own programmes) by explicitly forcing Pfizer to break its contractual terms with the UK Government - which would compel the British people to pay in blood and treasure for the Commission's mistakes.
That would cause severe damage to the EU's reputation for upholding the rule of law. It could also be regarded as a hostile act, which would imperil the entire Western alliance.
Now, the EU can either be sensible, take the hit for its mistakes like everyone has had to do from time to time in this pandemic, and perhaps sack the Health Commissioner for being useless. Or it can respond to a perilous world of insecurity on its eastern and southern boundaries by making an enemy out of the United Kingdom and shooting NATO in the head. Their choice.
Second, you raise a VERY good point re: travel & etc to get the jab. When I go for my own dose (so to speak) will be taking a city bus to & from a LARGE medical center. AND will be wearing an N95 mask to do so; the only time I wear one of those is on public transit & other crowded situation. Which I'm able to mostly avoid.
One advantage we have in America (in this regard at least) is PLENTY of people have their own cars & thus personal transport for themselves & their families.
It is what I cling on to during the dark days, and fuck me, there are dark days.
On top of that, I can now see friends and family getting vaxxed. Both my elderly parents (twice), a close friend today, others have their letters, it really is happening.
If I lived in a locked down advanced nation with a terribly slow vax programme which gave me no hope til "the end of the year maybe" - hello Holland - I might be discreetly rioting. As they are in Holland, as it happens.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/clinical-considerations.html
The EU is trying to fuck us over - they can sort themselves out for now.
Once our people are safe we can help others - but I would suggest the poorer nations are a more worthy recipient of our aid.
Good news can often sell as well as bad news. Or even better. Papers sell out when a British sporting team does something amazing.
Anyway, it means much later in the year, not right now.
It just takes one nutcase with a can of petrol to successfully destroy one of them and we might be in lockdown for an extra six months.
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/
Shame this stuff is marooned on what is a geek-news flick at the dead of night.
Incidentally, you said upthread that we don't have a contract with Novavax, but I think we do. Certainly there were heads of terms agreed in August, and there was also this:
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/10/29/novavax-sells-60-million-doses-of-its-coronavirus/
South America and South Africa both seem to be good candidates for having as much excess capacity diverted to them. High density populations, with large outbreaks but not rich enough to be able to get vaccine priority.
And for your own mental health, I’d counsel you to take a step back and look at the bulk of evidence, rather than reacting to everything you see on Twitter.
And I say that in good faith, and with best wishes.
"The NIHR-supported Novavax Phase 3 COVID-19 vaccine trial has achieved its recruitment target just two months after opening in the UK - with 15,203 volunteers from across the country recruited in record time.
The UK was the first country in the world to undertake and deliver a phase 3 trial for the Novavax vaccine. A phase 2b trial is currently underway in South Africa - with 4,422 volunteers taking part. While Novavax expects its pivotal phase 3 clinical trial in the United States and Mexico to begin in the coming weeks. In total, nearly 20,000 participants around the world have already been dosed.
More than 25 percent of enrollees in the trial are over the age of 65, while a large proportion of volunteers had underlying medical conditions generally representative of the population.
Interim data from this event-driven trial are expected as soon as early first quarter 2021, although the timing depends on the overall COVID-19 rate in the region. These data are expected to serve as the basis for licensure application in the U.K., European Union and other countries.
The UK government has already secured 60 million doses of the Novavax NVX-CoV2373 vaccine, provided it meets standards on safety, effectiveness and quality following publication of results."
https://www.nihr.ac.uk/news/novavax-phase-3-covid-19-vaccine-trial-completes-enrollment-in-two-months/26321
The UK signed an agreement with Novavax in August, complete with UK manufacturing - first 60million doses for us, annual capacity 180 million.:
https://ir.novavax.com/news-releases/news-release-details/novavax-and-uk-government-announce-collaboration-and-purchase
https://twitter.com/vcdgf555/status/1354535063858278400
And if anyone tries to disrupt it, slam them in jail for 30 years, like that oaf in the Viking horns and blue and white facepaint at the Capitol.
That is to say, I do not agree with Casino. That facepainted guy was part of an attempt to overthrow the democratic structure of the USA. He may be a silly dick who believes in QAnon, but he was there, in the Capitol, with others who were intent on hanging US politicians.
IF he goes to jail for 30 years, pour encourager les autres, so be it.
We did the same with the English riots. People got serious jail time for stealing water bottles. The Guardian bleated, but then they subsided. Because the logic is good. When the entire security and stability of the nation is imperilled, you generally have to hand out draconian sentences, to scare the living shit out of anyone considering similar actions. A nation that cannot do this is fecked.
It is notable that the English riots have not, in any way, been repeated.
As part of the agreement, Novavax agreed to create a dedicated supply chain in the U.K. for the production of that country's order. The company will be required to deliver those 60 million doses to the U.K. government before using that supply chain to fulfill orders for any other parties unless the U.K. government gives it permission.
Once the initial order is fulfilled, Novavax will be able to take orders from other parties using that portion of its production capacity, but the U.K. government will retain the right to request additional batches to match the third-party sales on a pro-rata basis.
If I were a betting man, which I am, I'd be inclined to the view that the agreement with AZ includes a similar clause.
https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/10/29/novavax-sells-60-million-doses-of-its-coronavirus/
I must confess that until today I hadn't fully appreciated quite how remarkable Kate Bingham's vaccine taskforce has been. It wasn't just about procuring Covid-19 vaccines (although that in itself is a superb achievement), it's also been about boosting the UK's overall research and manufacturing capability in vaccines:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/944308/VTF_Interim_report_-_5th_publication.pdf
This report, issued by the Vaccines Task Force in December, lists those vaccines for which orders have been placed, and this does indeed include 60m doses of the Novavax candidate.
Sometime in the future there will come a time when the people of the UK riot for good reasons and we dont want them incarcerated for 30 years
This is the reason the EU are struggling, there's no great conspiracy here.
Regarding terrorist anti-vaxxers and Capitol rioters. In both cases it is manslaughter.
I appreciate there is a difference when stealing bottles of water.
But lockdown can still hit me, out of the blue. eg I wake up, one morning, and think: Jesus fucking christ. Is this really happening? IS it really this bad? And then a bad day of doomscrolling ensues.
Vigorous exercise helps. Plus talking to friends. And booze. And fish suppers.
But there is no predicting when the bad days will happen, and they are bad, and they don't seem related to any particular news events or hormonal change or even the weather. They just come, and squat, like Larkin's toad.
I didn't engage them in the politics of it because it wasn't that kind of discussion, but I do wonder whether any of it would have been possible in the EU within their scheme. I know for a fact that we rejected it on the basis that our pre-existing deal with AZ was incompatible (specifically the 100m exclusive supply from UK manufacturing) but I do wonder whether once it became EU money how much investment in manufacturing we would actually have seen, I'd guess at close to zero.
Hence the explosive idea from Mr Spahn to curb exports. Such an approach would jar with European proclamations of the importance of free trade, and of sharing vaccine supplies beyond the rich world. Others despaired. How could the EU credibly deal with protectionism by, say, India if it used export controls itself as a first resort in a scrap over vaccines, wondered one diplomat. “We feared a Singapore-on-Thames [in the shape of post-Brexit Britain]; these ideas are turning us into Cuba-on-the-Seine.”
https://amp.economist.com/europe/2021/01/27/delays-in-covid-19-vaccine-delivery-are-causing-tempers-to-flare-and-timetables-to-slip?__twitter_impression=true
I seem to recall that one of the many criticisms of Brexit was that the EU had superior lawyers and would run rings around the British negotiators. It would be somewhat ironic if it turned out that, having turned down the opportunity to join the EU scheme as a result of Brexit, the UK Government had got to AZ first *AND* secured a firm commitment to everything that it wanted, whereas the European Commission came late to the party and had to make do with an aspiration.
Perhaps you could avail us of your experience? How are you finding lockdown, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically?
These are genuine questions. I find personal reactions to this unprecedented crisis quite absorbing and enlightening.
@CasinoRoyale is right.
The United States' obsession with draconian judicial sentencing is counterproductive. We have only scratched the surface in this thread.
In seriousness, I believe it was justified to give the English water-stealers an exemplary year or two in jail, just as it is justified to give the QAnon Viking guy 30 years.
The context is all, and - sadly for the criminals involved - the context is terrible, and sometimes a democratic society needs to make an example, so it never happens again.
A huge, enraged mob, however chaotic, made a decent attempt to overthrow the democratically elected US government. FFS, you can't treat them like average trespassers. In many (most?) countries they would now be dead. I am quite surprised they weren't mown down on the day
The EU vaccine rollout is a shambles and in this key case we are better off out. It really is that simple.
The biggest improvement to my mental health in recent years came after I stopped looking at Twitter every day. Anabobazina's advice the the soundest thing I've read on these pages all week. Twitter makes people of all political stripes anxious, angry, and tribal. I see quite a few friends and family members suffering from it.
Russia has elections I don't need to elaborate here
America has elections and I think most would agree it it a pretty flawed democracy
The uk has elections many would argue that the majority did not vote for our government and would have preferred something else.
I am not claiming any are true or false I am merely asking who judges the point where a country crosses the line between democratic and not. I am the first to say I cant say where the line is
b) De-programming takes time.
Extra bit. The US obsession with draconian sentencing for trivialities is counter productive.
Steal a little and they throw you in jail.
Steal a lot and they make you King.
We signed everything else.
Worth noting too that 100mn of Oxford/AZN cost peanuts on a Covid-scale, so well worth gambling on.
When research is going on then a bit of nationalism by "purchasing" your own universities/manufacturers vaccine makes sense, its essentially funding the research but getting a quid pro quo back if the research pays out. Like a nationalised Kickstarter.
Where nationalism goes wrong is when you reject other countries because you exclusively want your own.
The human race would be on the whole better of if most people rejected most forms of social media
UK are in an excellent position to be the uninjured one in Rolf Harris 2 little boys song.
The next move is the EU will call and ask, can you share some. Has there been any polling yet on how UK gov should answer? There is going to be polling because what a big call. The sort of political decision that separates the chaff from the wheat.
To my mind the answer is absolutely yes. It’s got to be yes. Not just for the good politics of saying yes, but because saying no would be such terrible politics. We may have upper hand at this end, but if it goes into big squabble mode we could end up worse off at the other end.
Got to play the long, all working together game on this.
One thing is clear. If we had let the LibDems run the Vaccine Task Force, we would be in total & utter darkness.
There would be many 70+ year olds with absolutely nothing to look forward to, except a very grim few months.
The contributions by prominent LibDems on this blog today have been little short of bewildering. Bluster about the size of the EU and how it will get its way, scaremongering about delaying the second jab, elementary errors of maths and science from people with no evident skills or training in anything other than Libdemmery.
And one of them libelled me as English, as well.
Like the electorate at large, I have concluded the LibDems should only be allowed to organise very simple, straightforward & unimportant matters -- like the rota for the apple harvest in Camberwick Green.
And I would not be wholly sure that the LibDems could get that right.
Probably Wera would set up a focus group to study whether 5G causes apples to become radioactive.
Their economies are going to be a mess too. Until they do get through it, they are going to need money. Huge amounts of money. The ECB is going to have to dig deep. Again.
But we could have done even better: we could have paid Pfizer and AZN and co to build new vaccine production facilities in the UK, and we could and should have paid them to have 100 million doses produced and available to us by the end of last year.
The EU has performed execrably: it's been an abject lesson in the dangers of having those making the decisions (the Commission) unaccountable to voters.
I've friends who have been ruined by this. Either by redundancy or by being self employed and not being covered by furlough.
When all is said and done this is yet another wealth transfer from the young to the old.
We paid billions of pounds more for the vaccine than they did and now they wonder why they don't have it? They're first world countries, they should have bloody paid for it! Its not rocket science and its not a natural disaster.
Plus of course anything we donate would massively hurt the UK but get no gratitude when its divided around the EU. Say we donate 4 million of our stocks, the next fortnight's rollout. We now lose a fortnight rolling out - and that 4 million gets prorata'd around the EU to be the equivalent of 600k [at our size population] per country. Nice for them to have, but not something that will change the situation for them dramatically.
We need tens of millions, they need hundreds of millions. The maths doesn't work. They should have paid for the vaccine upfront and there's no way to bridge the gap to make up for the fact they screwed up.