Laying Brian Rose in the London Mayoral race – the best bet out there at the moment – politicalbetti
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Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!noneoftheabove said:
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?TheScreamingEagles said:
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.1 -
2
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Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
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Excellent post of yours on PT, Sandy, about what Labour should be all about. Disagree with a fair amount of it - as I would being one of those North London types you give a lashing to - but very effectively expressed.SandyRentool said:
Zahawi hunting round for a fag packet on which to record the official data.solarflare said:Formal government vaccination statistics tomorrow. Good.
Interesting point with it is that of the many "likes" it garnered almost all are from right wing posters. Make of this what you will.0 -
That's the preparation of a man who lives his life on the road - and has adapted to it.Leon said:lol. Good for him. Oddly cheering
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1341695074619568128?s=202 -
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo0 -
Yet you twice voted for Johnson in his only two UK wide electoral events.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, if you think I'm a 'Johnson-ramping Tory' I'd gently suggest that doesn't necessarily line up with what I've been saying about the clown for years...
You sir are a clown enabler.
So who is the bigger clown? The clown, or the clown following the clown?0 -
I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Bill passes
326 - 1231 -
That much we can agree on. No-one has a go at the Tories because hapless IDS supported Iraq.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think Starmer has any influence say or significance whether he abstains or votes in favour.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Actually I think it is Starmer's interest to vote for a deal as abstaining will just confirm he is unable to make decisionsMexicanpete said:
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.Philip_Thompson said:
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?Mexicanpete said:
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
I also think he would receive terrible press but as a conservative I am content for him to abstain
Its like asking whether a fly on a windscreen should have a say on which direction the driver takes the vehicle.
Nobody is going to care in 3 years what Starmer does. This is Boris's deal, not his.1 -
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).Mexicanpete said:
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.SouthamObserver said:
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.Mexicanpete said:
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.Philip_Thompson said:
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?Mexicanpete said:
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
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But still the first country to develop a Covid vaccine.Malmesbury said:
The biochemical - as opposed to chemical - industry in Germany is interesting.CarlottaVance said:
When it comes to "which virus variant" they've got they're largely flying blind - we're sampling 90 times as many tests as Germany is. They could easily have both the "UK" (sic) and "South African" (sic) variants running amok and it will take them a while to find out. It's no surprise that the other country in Europe to identify they've got it is Denmark - because they're testing.....SouthamObserver said:
To be fair, we did get a vaccine out of Germany.CarlottaVance said:Hancock full of praise for South African work on genomics - impressive for an emerging economy to have done more than Germany, France, Italy...in fact only 4 EU members (Denmark, Spain, Netherlands & Ireland) have done more.....
A serious problem is the Green fixation on BioTech = Evul. Which has ended up with laughable restrictions on school level experiments.0 -
Weren't you posting links about how well the US economy was performing as restrictions were removed?contrarian said:
In the real world of course, the UK economy is already 8/9% smaller than per pandemic. and the new measures being introduced now probably mean a further recession.rcs1000 said:
I would expect there'll be quite a lot of post-CV19 bounce. But I'd be surprised if there was any meaningful near term additional economic growth driven by Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
I predict very strong post-transition growth in 2021 📈 and 2022 📈Mexicanpete said:
...and then you woke up.Philip_Thompson said:
Post-Brexit post-transition boom. 📈RobD said:
Probably two years with the fast growth recorded in decades.
Our deficit is USD240bn over 8 months, reaching USD400bn by next April. Probably more if shagger Ferguson gets his way and there is another full lockdown in January.
That full lockdown will be the last straw for a further swathe of businesses. Paul Johnson of the IFS said the other day a great deal of further damage will be done in the following years when we will still be running very large deficits, because it will be impossible to get back to normal quickly.
Real cost of COVID 19? its going to be close to a trillion pounds all told. That's always supposing Ferguson & Co don;t dream up another threat next year, which right now looks pretty likely, given their track record.
POst covid 19? there is no post covid 19. There is no prosper mightily and there is no getting out of this.
The only things that are getting us out of this is running out of money, or people deciding the risks are worth getting their lives back.
The same will happen in the UK. (And even in France and Germany.) The levels of debt the UK government has are about the same as 1967, when the economy performed (checks) actually rather well.
Businesses will go out of business.
You know what? That sucks for the owners. But that's a feature of capitalism.
New businesses spring up. Did you know that in the US there's a direct relationship between rate of business failure and economic growth: states with more business failures perform better. Why? Because business failure is capital being deployed more efficiently. It's a feature, not a bug.
And finally, you know that big government debt. Most of it is owed to the BoE. It will never be repaid back.0 -
I suspect you're not far off the truth. Would expect the Tory rebels to slightly outnumber the Lab rebels but probably closer to 20 than 35.Pulpstar said:I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Bill passes
326 - 1230 -
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.0 -
He took the time and effort to lay a nice tablecloth. That's the clinching factor. Truly civilised.Malmesbury said:
That's the preparation of a man who lives his life on the road - and has adapted to it.Leon said:lol. Good for him. Oddly cheering
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1341695074619568128?s=201 -
Indeed, and he has a cooker tucked away too.Malmesbury said:
That's the preparation of a man who lives his life on the road - and has adapted to it.Leon said:lol. Good for him. Oddly cheering
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1341695074619568128?s=200 -
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?Brom said:
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!noneoftheabove said:
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?TheScreamingEagles said:
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.0 -
Looking at those rough numbers, the rebellions from both Labour and the Tories can afford to grow a hell of a lot. The Covid rebellion was 53 Tories, 15 Labour so there's loads of wiggle room for Boris whilst the right can still vent their spleen opposing him.Pulpstar said:I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Bill passes
326 - 123
As @Brom points out the rebellions may well be smaller too.0 -
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
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If we get some of the £35m we paid for him back then it’ll be a result.TheScreamingEagles said:Paging @TLG86
https://twitter.com/Sport_EN/status/1341770602068258816
Just how fecked must Barca be?0 -
I'd far rather be where the UK and Denmark is - knowing we've got a problem, than France or Germany sitting on "unexplained" rises in cases.Malmesbury said:
The biochemical - as opposed to chemical - industry in Germany is interesting.CarlottaVance said:
When it comes to "which virus variant" they've got they're largely flying blind - we're sampling 90 times as many tests as Germany is. They could easily have both the "UK" (sic) and "South African" (sic) variants running amok and it will take them a while to find out. It's no surprise that the other country in Europe to identify they've got it is Denmark - because they're testing.....SouthamObserver said:
To be fair, we did get a vaccine out of Germany.CarlottaVance said:Hancock full of praise for South African work on genomics - impressive for an emerging economy to have done more than Germany, France, Italy...in fact only 4 EU members (Denmark, Spain, Netherlands & Ireland) have done more.....
A serious problem is the Green fixation on BioTech = Evul. Which has ended up with laughable restrictions on school level experiments.
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The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.Flatlander said:
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.0 -
Mr. Eagles, I voted against a far left lunatic. Just as I'd vote for a Labour idiot if the alternative for PM was a member of the far right.
As for the referendum, I voted to leave the EU. That isn't a vote for or against any individual, any more than your vote to remain was an endorsement of Guy Verhofstadt[sp] or Tony Blair.
If you care to remember, though you may not as it doesn't agreed with the slanted comment you make, I excoriated Conservative MPs for backing Boris Johnson as PM. When he was Foreign Secretary I said he was unworthy to be in Cabinet, let alone lead it. And I've said for some time the Conservatives should axe him and let someone who isn't a blithering idiot be PM.3 -
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We are not removing restrictions. We are increasing them. Hugely.rcs1000 said:
Weren't you posting links about how well the US economy was performing as restrictions were removed?contrarian said:
In the real world of course, the UK economy is already 8/9% smaller than per pandemic. and the new measures being introduced now probably mean a further recession.rcs1000 said:
I would expect there'll be quite a lot of post-CV19 bounce. But I'd be surprised if there was any meaningful near term additional economic growth driven by Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
I predict very strong post-transition growth in 2021 📈 and 2022 📈Mexicanpete said:
...and then you woke up.Philip_Thompson said:
Post-Brexit post-transition boom. 📈RobD said:
Probably two years with the fast growth recorded in decades.
Our deficit is USD240bn over 8 months, reaching USD400bn by next April. Probably more if shagger Ferguson gets his way and there is another full lockdown in January.
That full lockdown will be the last straw for a further swathe of businesses. Paul Johnson of the IFS said the other day a great deal of further damage will be done in the following years when we will still be running very large deficits, because it will be impossible to get back to normal quickly.
Real cost of COVID 19? its going to be close to a trillion pounds all told. That's always supposing Ferguson & Co don;t dream up another threat next year, which right now looks pretty likely, given their track record.
POst covid 19? there is no post covid 19. There is no prosper mightily and there is no getting out of this.
The only things that are getting us out of this is running out of money, or people deciding the risks are worth getting their lives back.
The same will happen in the UK. (And even in France and Germany.) The levels of debt the UK government has are about the same as 1967, when the economy performed (checks) actually rather well.
Businesses will go out of business.
You know what? That sucks for the owners. But that's a feature of capitalism.
New businesses spring up. Did you know that in the US there's a direct relationship between rate of business failure and economic growth: states with more business failures perform better. Why? Because business failure is capital being deployed more efficiently. It's a feature, not a bug.
And finally, you know that big government debt. Most of it is owed to the BoE. It will never be repaid back.
And businesses are going out of business not because they are unviable in a free market, but because of government order.
But we shall see.
I advise bitcoin. Even now.
But that's quite enough from me, I think.0 -
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.1 -
But look at the other options -Brom said:Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.1 -
On another note entirely, the latest YouGov has very stark numbers for both Labour and Tory on the age of their demographics. Labour's vote is very strongly concentrated on students and those of working age. The Tories only lead in the 65+ bracket, but by a huge margin.
https://twitter.com/hyweldjones/status/13416972238312488961 -
The clue to that might be in the term free agent.tlg86 said:
If we get some of the £35m we paid for him back then it’ll be a result.TheScreamingEagles said:Paging @TLG86
https://twitter.com/Sport_EN/status/1341770602068258816
Just how fecked must Barca be?0 -
Thanks. Clearly we have an internal debate over what the Labour Party is for.kinabalu said:
Excellent post of yours on PT, Sandy, about what Labour should be all about. Disagree with a fair amount of it - as I would being one of those North London types you give a lashing to - but very effectively expressed.SandyRentool said:
Zahawi hunting round for a fag packet on which to record the official data.solarflare said:Formal government vaccination statistics tomorrow. Good.
Interesting point with it is that of the many "likes" it garnered almost all are from right wing posters. Make of this what you will.
And I hope it is conducted as a debate and not an argument. I don't mean between the likes of us, but between those at top of the party and its affiliates.
1 -
His agent must be bloody amazing....TheScreamingEagles said:Paging @TLG86
https://twitter.com/Sport_EN/status/1341770602068258816
Just how fecked must Barca be?0 -
Too dumb to understand that mutations are more likely if there are more infections?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
If only there were a vaccination against stupidity!0 -
No, he voted for his quality local parliamentary candidate.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yet you twice voted for Johnson in his only two UK wide electoral events.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, if you think I'm a 'Johnson-ramping Tory' I'd gently suggest that doesn't necessarily line up with what I've been saying about the clown for years...
You sir are a clown enabler.
So who is the bigger clown? The clown, or the clown following the clown?
Oh...1 -
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.Pulpstar said:
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.Flatlander said:
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
1 -
I must say my personal experience was that it was incredibly safe and the correct measures were well implemented.noneoftheabove said:
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?Brom said:
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!noneoftheabove said:
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?TheScreamingEagles said:
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
It's arguably the families of the players and the coaching staff I feel get the hardest deal. Lower down the leagues missing fixtures through positive tests will be costing the clubs a lot of money and the risk of catching it must be that much higher when you're mixing as they do.0 -
'Clusterfuck of shithousery' is now my go to phrase.
https://twitter.com/Nadine_Writes/status/13417774651742740481 -
Re biotech, vaccines, genome sequencing etc.
Interestingly for all the amazing tech and general prep South Korea have done since SARs, I remember esrly on in this crisis watching an interview with a South Korean academic who said we (as in SK) won't be the ones producing a vaccine or medicines...our biotech companies and universities have had loads of money from the government and nothing ever to show.0 -
0
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SNP down two, too.SandyRentool said:
Big gains for Lib Dems and UKIP. Tories wiped out.CarlottaVance said:0 -
Today's figures:
39,237 cases, 744 deaths, 2,004 admissions, 453,903 tests.0 -
The report I read hypothesised that Patient Zero was an immunocompromised individual who struggled for a while - thus giving the virus the time to mutate/infect others - I don't know if there's any more to it than that, or speculation on the treatment Patient Zero received.Flatlander said:
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.Pulpstar said:
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.Flatlander said:
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
0 -
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
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Yes, it is just a hypothesis - basically speculation. Nobody really knows. It is how we managed to breed MRSA though...CarlottaVance said:
The report I read hypothesised that Patient Zero was an immunocompromised individual who struggled for a while - thus giving the virus the time to mutate/infect others - I don't know if there's any more to it than that, or speculation on the treatment Patient Zero received.Flatlander said:
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.Pulpstar said:
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.Flatlander said:
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.0 -
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?1 -
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?0 -
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/13413197680837345281 -
South Korea ranks below Saudi Arabia in the genome stakes:FrancisUrquhart said:Re biotech, vaccines, genome sequencing etc.
Interestingly for all the amazing tech and general prep South Korea have done since SARs, I remember early on in this crisis watching an interview with a South Korean academic who said we (as in SK) won't be the ones producing a vaccine or medicines...our biotech companies and universities have had loads of money from the government and nothing ever to show.
https://twitter.com/kcorazo/status/1341670048927109120?s=20
0 -
I'm one of the biggest remainers out there and I have no problem with him voting yes as long as he says that as soon as he is in power he will ask the EU for a better (i.e. closer one). Anyone who thinks this deal will mean the end of Brexit is living in Dreamland.kinabalu said:
But look at the other options -Brom said:Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.2 -
Thought this one had been debunked.CarlottaVance said:0 -
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.CarlottaVance said:1 -
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/13413197680837345280 -
If everyone is outdoors, masked and household groups are 6 feet apart it'll be safe.Brom said:
I must say my personal experience was that it was incredibly safe and the correct measures were well implemented.noneoftheabove said:
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?Brom said:
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!noneoftheabove said:
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?TheScreamingEagles said:
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
It's arguably the families of the players and the coaching staff I feel get the hardest deal. Lower down the leagues missing fixtures through positive tests will be costing the clubs a lot of money and the risk of catching it must be that much higher when you're mixing as they do.
Indoors as per the recent Joshua fight, absolubtely not.0 -
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/13413197680837345282 -
Paying more to get the vaccine earlier makes a lot of sense. The gains you make at the other end in in terms of economic activity will far outstrip the initial investment. This was exactly the same as my thinking way back when the argument was all about how much we should pay the EU to get a deal done. I'd have paid whatever as the amount would have been trivial in comparison to the gains we would have made in terms of business investment etc on the back of the certainty. Seems like a long time ago now!CarlottaVance said:
0 -
@RochdalePioneers
Read your (vg) post on PT about you and your dad, re generational conflict, and it reminded me of something with mine quite recently.
Chatting to him about a doctor's appointment he'd had and he said to me -
"It was a new bloke. Hadn't seen him before. He was Indian but he was fine."
I said why the but? He was mortified. Said "oh god, what an arsehole I am, that says something about me, doesn't it? It shows how deep-seated some of my outdated attitudes are. Thanks for pointing it out, son."
I smiled gently and said he wasn't an arsehole, no way. The fact he now got it, and so quickly, showed the very opposite. But that he should remain vigilant. Try not to embarrass himself again like that in my presence.0 -
There were people on here not long ago claiming the vaccine would neve arrive and it was always going to be 2 months away.TheScreamingEagles said:
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528
Given tome every one of the anti-lockdown claims is shown to fail.2 -
Yep. Pathetic.noneoftheabove said:The PM timing his victory/surrender (take your pick or somewhere in between) perfectly for a Christmas present, and to give his beloved optimism for the new year. Well, perfectly for his short term popularity, shit for business who have no time to prepare and have faced ridiculous uncertainty.
1 -
Tier 4 here we come with fewer than 100/100k cases and pretty stable. Oh well.0
-
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.TheScreamingEagles said:
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
0 -
and the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes also have those benefits with far fewer dead.contrarian said:
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.TheScreamingEagles said:
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
In fact, isn't the Swedish economy worse affected than those others given the impact of the worse health impact?
Sure I saw some data on here showing that.1 -
Pathetic? Good negotiations always go to the wire.kinabalu said:
Yep. Pathetic.noneoftheabove said:The PM timing his victory/surrender (take your pick or somewhere in between) perfectly for a Christmas present, and to give his beloved optimism for the new year. Well, perfectly for his short term popularity, shit for business who have no time to prepare and have faced ridiculous uncertainty.
What would be pathetic is if anyone tried to pretend we could have gotten the same deal from Barnier months ago. You're not going to try something so credulous are you?1 -
The irony of France's Europe minister relying on the Daily Mail as a reliable source though....MattW said:
Thought this one had been debunked.CarlottaVance said:
2 -
Good evening all,
I wonder if in a few months time those that support Johnson's deal will be rushing to say how terrible it was. Will history repeat itself?
As for the rest, family is now into Tier 4 and no update on relative's COVID test.
I am getting increasingly depressed this is going to go on for another year and that's making me very sad.
Have a lovely evening.0 -
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.1 -
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:0 -
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:1 -
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.eek said:
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:2 -
A lot of elderly are deaf and have trouble picking up Indian accents (assuming they were Indian and not Brummie or whatever). Sometimes all "fine" means is that they could hear them properly. I don't know if this is the case with your dad.kinabalu said:@RochdalePioneers
Read your (vg) post on PT about you and your dad, re generational conflict, and it reminded me of something with mine quite recently.
Chatting to him about a doctor's appointment he'd had and he said to me -
"It was a new bloke. Hadn't seen him before. He was Indian but he was fine."
I said why the but? He was mortified. Said "oh god, what an arsehole I am, that says something about me, doesn't it? It shows how deep-seated some of my outdated attitudes are. Thanks for pointing it out, son."
I smiled gently and said he wasn't an arsehole, no way. The fact he now got it, and so quickly, showed the very opposite. But that he should remain vigilant. Try not to embarrass himself again like that in my presence.
I had fun with getting my dad sorted out with something at the bank. He could not understand a word on the telephone to their Indian call centre and they wouldn't speak to me, so we had to go to the branch. The branch rang up the same call centre and put him on the phone. Doh!2 -
What level of death are you will wring to tolerate for everything to be "normal"? How many per day.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/13413197680837345280 -
It's nuts. "How many dead Europeans were your cheaper vaccines worth?" is the obvious riposte. I'm not even sure it's true - its not clear that the time was spent haggling over price rather than in deciding what to buy - which may reflect the EU's decision to compromise the EMA capacity by moving it at haste to Amsterdam.glw said:
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.CarlottaVance said:0 -
It's almost as if those clamouring for the UK to join the EU scheme were doing so on ideological grounds... titter.CarlottaVance said:
It's nuts. "How many dead Europeans were your cheaper vaccines worth?" is the obvious riposte. I'm not even sure it's true - its not clear that the time was spent haggling over price rather than in deciding what to buy - which may reflect the EU's decision to compromise the EMA capacity by moving it at haste to Amsterdam.glw said:
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.CarlottaVance said:3 -
The delicious irony is that had Labour abstained on May's deal it could have torn the Tories apart. While Labour could have pledged to build on and move further than May.kinabalu said:
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.
Thank goodness that didn't happen.
Love it love it love it.1 -
The Spiegel story - according to my French friends - is going down like a lead ballon.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:1 -
Of all people, surprisingly, Guido Fawkes was actually right when he said earlier 'Any pundit immediately telling you this is a sellout or the best deal in history without having had time to read the thing is either an idiot or a liar. Probably both'.FrancisUrquhart said:5...4....3...2...1....masses of tweets about how Boris capitulated...from Remainers and Leavers.
Though I have my doubts he has concern with certain people, like MPs, having time to read things generally. Not to mention jumping the gun on any announcement from the looks of it.
Why compare it to here, rather than those nations which are a better comparator with it, like its neighbours? I genuinely don't know how it compares to those economically, though much much worse on deaths, but Sweden and the UK are not the only places in the world and neither is a good comparator for the other.contrarian said:
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.TheScreamingEagles said:
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.0 -
Agreed. It's a nonsense. He needs to make the political judgement as to what is best for Labour. If that is to abstain, then abstain is the correct choice. Johnson has negotiated the deal and has an 80 seat majority. He and the Tory Party have finally got their beloved Brexit done. That's the story right now. Next installment, we see how it pans out. We start the new game - spot the tangible benefit.Mexicanpete said:
I dispute that abstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.SouthamObserver said:
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.Mexicanpete said:
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.Philip_Thompson said:
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?Mexicanpete said:
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.1 -
If I were Starmer I'd be asking myself why the Tory Brexiteers seem so desperate for him to support the deal.SouthamObserver said:
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).Mexicanpete said:
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.SouthamObserver said:
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.Mexicanpete said:
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.Philip_Thompson said:
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?Mexicanpete said:
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
If they were convinced it was going to be a rip-roaring success wouldn't they want to claim all the credit themselves?
If he's wise he won't have his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I do agree with you to the extent that in the same way that the Iraq war will always be pinned on Blair despite the Tories supporting it, Brexit will always be pinned on Boris and the Tories.2 -
When you look at the cost of the Oxford Vaccine in particular its peanuts compared to the gains of opening up the economy. The actual programme and workforce will be far more expensive than the vaccine itself I'd imagine.RobD said:
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.eek said:
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.0 -
Covid/vaccine nationalism is wrong, but Covid/vaccine europeanisation is ok.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:2 -
Getting a small amount of vaccine first doesn't get you to normal, particularly when - as we are doing - economically inactive people are being prioritised (To reduce deaths). Getting to the herd ~ 70% or so level first will be what counts.0
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Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etcRobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.0 -
Why is being duped one way or another the only option you are considering?contrarian said:
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...TheScreamingEagles said:
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.contrarian said:
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.TheScreamingEagles said:
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.contrarian said:
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.williamglenn said:
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?contrarian said:
We'll see.Philip_Thompson said:
You're mad.contrarian said:
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.Flatlander said:If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528-1 -
As in "untrue" or "rumbled"?Malmesbury said:
The Spiegel story - according to my French friends - is going down like a lead ballon.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:0 -
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Are the public going to be interested in hearing more screams of betrayal from Farage and ERG nutjobs if a deal is announced.
I doubt it . There really is only upsides for Johnson with a deal . That’s why I never brought this no deal nonsense , with an 80 seat majority the ERG don’t have the numbers and even if they sent letters in Johnson would easily win any challenge .
1 -
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supply has there been any more deliveries beyon the initial 500,000?Leon said:
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etcRobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.0 -
Supply is the issue though.nichomar said:
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supplyLeon said:
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etcRobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.0 -
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....Brom said:
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.RobD said:
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.eek said:
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
0 -
Did he announce an immediate closure of the border to SA and surrounding countries then? No? Clearly not that worried then.FrancisUrquhart said:Hancock sounded very very worried about just how serious super mutant SA covid is.
0 -
Good evening to you. Eventful pre-Christmas Eve day. Wife's presents all packed, labelled and under the tree, and there's a pleasant smell of hot mince pies wafting from the kitchen.. Collected presents from Eldest Son & family and handed over ours to them, mysteriously and covertly, in a hotel car park. We weren't the only ones doing that, either.CorrectHorseBattery said:Good evening all,
I wonder if in a few months time those that support Johnson's deal will be rushing to say how terrible it was. Will history repeat itself?
As for the rest, family is now into Tier 4 and no update on relative's COVID test.
I am getting increasingly depressed this is going to go on for another year and that's making me very sad.
Have a lovely evening.
Good job we had decided to be just us; son-in-law, who was going to be our host has been in a bubble with someone who has tested positive, and he has a cough. Fortunately we were buying the turkey, but he has somewhere else to go. That's at least three in our 'circle' probably positive
Eldest Granddaughter, who also coming has consequently arranged to go to her boyfriend's parents and is relieved that Stoke hasn't been 'upped'.
And at least some of those unfortunate lorry drivers are on the move. PBI again!0 -
Christ, May one a challenge the first time one occurred, I'm sure Boris could. Not being beholden to the ERG was the main reason May went to the country and, though it was needed to get Brexit over the line at all, a major reason Boris went to the country. Despite the noise that lot makes there seems little appetite among other Tories to actively pursue no deal, hence why Boris and co have never just gone for it when they surely have the numbers if they wanted to.nico679 said:Are the public going to be interested in hearing more screams of betrayal from Farage and ERG nutjobs if a deal is announced.
I doubt it . There really is only upsides for Johnson with a deal . That’s why I never brought this no deal nonsense , with an 80 seat majority the ERG don’t have the numbers and even if they sent letters in Johnson would easily win any challenge .
Be interesting to see how many people get angry at not no dealing and retain that anger long enough for a) largish Labour leads, and b) impact at the locals perhaps. I think b won't be as bad as the Tories fear, even though it will be a bad night for them.
Depending on speed of rollout as well, that seems about right. Starting as early as possible as obviously great, but won't be the be all and end all.nichomar said:
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supplyLeon said:
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etcRobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.0 -
For something that is not incontrovertibly a good idea, Brexit does have some wonderful side effectskinabalu said:
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.
1 -
A Labour Party trying to partially repeal Brexit and bring back Freedom of Movement etc would be the biggest gift for the Tories there could be. Someone asked on here the other day how Labour could avoid the identity politics trap. The first step in that should be accepting Brexit, accepting the deal, and accepting limited immigration.timple said:
I'm one of the biggest remainers out there and I have no problem with him voting yes as long as he says that as soon as he is in power he will ask the EU for a better (i.e. closer one). Anyone who thinks this deal will mean the end of Brexit is living in Dreamland.kinabalu said:
But look at the other options -Brom said:Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.0 -
And who gets the blame if Germany vaccinates half the population by May while Spain is 3 months behind? A vaccination rollout programme should certainly be one area where EU bureaucracy would have been a hinderance to the UK. We did well to procure the Pfizer vaccine before anywhere else and then to approve it first. The government and medical bodies deserve a lot of credit on that front.CarlottaVance said:
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....Brom said:
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.RobD said:
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.eek said:
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:4 -
Immediate quarantine (backdated) and flights grounded.MaxPB said:
Did he announce an immediate closure of the border to SA and surrounding countries then? No? Clearly not that worried then.FrancisUrquhart said:Hancock sounded very very worried about just how serious super mutant SA covid is.
0 -
Starmer opposing the deal would be the most interesting choice - I think it would backfire, and therefore I don't think he'll do it. Abstaining is safe, but looks bad for him personally. Again I don't think he'll do it.OllyT said:
If I were Starmer I'd be asking myself why the Tory Brexiteers seem so desperate for him to support the deal.SouthamObserver said:
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).Mexicanpete said:
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.SouthamObserver said:
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.Mexicanpete said:
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.Philip_Thompson said:
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?Mexicanpete said:
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
If they were convinced it was going to be a rip-roaring success wouldn't they want to claim all the credit themselves?
If he's wise he won't have his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I do agree with you to the extent that in the same way that the Iraq war will always be pinned on Blair despite the Tories supporting it, Brexit will always be pinned on Boris and the Tories.
My guess is Labour will back the deal and make a lot of noise about having to take the rough with the smooth in the interests of the country. To be honest, for once, they'll be right.
In a mean political sense I'd like Starmer to oppose the deal, but I really hope he doesn't do that - far too devisive for the country going forwards.
No real view as to whether I'd prefer Starmer to abstain or vote for a deal. I'm quite keen that Starmer fights off the left though. The worst of all possible worlds is Corbyn and his chums, and I'll happily take a small risk of Labour moderates being popular over any possible route in for the Islington ghastly.0 -
You sure that's not just a reaction to Burley's trip?Philip_Thompson said:
Immediate quarantine (backdated) and flights grounded.MaxPB said:
Did he announce an immediate closure of the border to SA and surrounding countries then? No? Clearly not that worried then.FrancisUrquhart said:Hancock sounded very very worried about just how serious super mutant SA covid is.
1 -
Well, yes: supplynichomar said:
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supply has there been any more deliveries beyon the initial 500,000?Leon said:
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etcRobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.
Ireland - as part of the EU Consortium - is getting its first vaccines on 30th December. The initial allotment is... 10,000 doses.0 -
Vaccine distribution will be every Monday to the individual communities to organize distribution I’m sure someone has the ‘facts’ about how much and when is distributed in each country but it’s far more fun to make them up to fit your own narrative.Brom said:
And who gets the blame if Germany vaccinates half the population by May while Spain is 3 months behind? A vaccination rollout programme should certainly be one area where EU bureaucracy would have been a hinderance to the UK. We did well to procure the Pfizer vaccine before anywhere else and then to approve it first. The government and medical bodies deserve a lot of credit on that front.CarlottaVance said:
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....Brom said:
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.RobD said:
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.eek said:
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:0 -
"Not surprising" is the common theme so far - the bit about the French government blocking a bigger buy unless the French company got a bigger order....CarlottaVance said:
As in "untrue" or "rumbled"?Malmesbury said:
The Spiegel story - according to my French friends - is going down like a lead ballon.RobD said:
I think they are compensating for something.CarlottaVance said:
It is, after all, the country, where when the propellors failed for the new aircraft carrier, there was a fire at the company in question. In the middle of the night. In the records office. Which destroyed one filing cabinet..... Everyone I knew just shrugged.0
This discussion has been closed.