Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Formal government vaccination statistics tomorrow. Good.
Zahawi hunting round for a fag packet on which to record the official data.
Excellent post of yours on PT, Sandy, about what Labour should be all about. Disagree with a fair amount of it - as I would being one of those North London types you give a lashing to - but very effectively expressed.
Interesting point with it is that of the many "likes" it garnered almost all are from right wing posters. Make of this what you will.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Mr. Pete, if you think I'm a 'Johnson-ramping Tory' I'd gently suggest that doesn't necessarily line up with what I've been saying about the clown for years...
Yet you twice voted for Johnson in his only two UK wide electoral events.
You sir are a clown enabler.
So who is the bigger clown? The clown, or the clown following the clown?
I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.
Actually I think it is Starmer's interest to vote for a deal as abstaining will just confirm he is unable to make decisions
I also think he would receive terrible press but as a conservative I am content for him to abstain
I don't think Starmer has any influence say or significance whether he abstains or votes in favour.
Its like asking whether a fly on a windscreen should have a say on which direction the driver takes the vehicle.
Nobody is going to care in 3 years what Starmer does. This is Boris's deal, not his.
That much we can agree on. No-one has a go at the Tories because hapless IDS supported Iraq.
Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).
Hancock full of praise for South African work on genomics - impressive for an emerging economy to have done more than Germany, France, Italy...in fact only 4 EU members (Denmark, Spain, Netherlands & Ireland) have done more.....
To be fair, we did get a vaccine out of Germany.
When it comes to "which virus variant" they've got they're largely flying blind - we're sampling 90 times as many tests as Germany is. They could easily have both the "UK" (sic) and "South African" (sic) variants running amok and it will take them a while to find out. It's no surprise that the other country in Europe to identify they've got it is Denmark - because they're testing.....
The biochemical - as opposed to chemical - industry in Germany is interesting.
A serious problem is the Green fixation on BioTech = Evul. Which has ended up with laughable restrictions on school level experiments.
But still the first country to develop a Covid vaccine.
I predict very strong post-transition growth in 2021 📈 and 2022 📈
Probably two years with the fast growth recorded in decades.
I would expect there'll be quite a lot of post-CV19 bounce. But I'd be surprised if there was any meaningful near term additional economic growth driven by Brexit.
In the real world of course, the UK economy is already 8/9% smaller than per pandemic. and the new measures being introduced now probably mean a further recession.
Our deficit is USD240bn over 8 months, reaching USD400bn by next April. Probably more if shagger Ferguson gets his way and there is another full lockdown in January.
That full lockdown will be the last straw for a further swathe of businesses. Paul Johnson of the IFS said the other day a great deal of further damage will be done in the following years when we will still be running very large deficits, because it will be impossible to get back to normal quickly.
Real cost of COVID 19? its going to be close to a trillion pounds all told. That's always supposing Ferguson & Co don;t dream up another threat next year, which right now looks pretty likely, given their track record.
POst covid 19? there is no post covid 19. There is no prosper mightily and there is no getting out of this.
The only things that are getting us out of this is running out of money, or people deciding the risks are worth getting their lives back.
Weren't you posting links about how well the US economy was performing as restrictions were removed?
The same will happen in the UK. (And even in France and Germany.) The levels of debt the UK government has are about the same as 1967, when the economy performed (checks) actually rather well.
Businesses will go out of business.
You know what? That sucks for the owners. But that's a feature of capitalism.
New businesses spring up. Did you know that in the US there's a direct relationship between rate of business failure and economic growth: states with more business failures perform better. Why? Because business failure is capital being deployed more efficiently. It's a feature, not a bug.
And finally, you know that big government debt. Most of it is owed to the BoE. It will never be repaid back.
I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Bill passes
326 - 123
I suspect you're not far off the truth. Would expect the Tory rebels to slightly outnumber the Lab rebels but probably closer to 20 than 35.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
I think Starmer will "not oppose" the deal (Abstain). Lib Dems and SNP will oppose, as will the DUP, as will a motley collection of Tory rebels (~35 or so of the usual suspects) from the right and about 15 rebels from Starmer's left flank. SDLP might support or abstain citing Northern Irish border concerns in the event of no deal.
Bill passes
326 - 123
Looking at those rough numbers, the rebellions from both Labour and the Tories can afford to grow a hell of a lot. The Covid rebellion was 53 Tories, 15 Labour so there's loads of wiggle room for Boris whilst the right can still vent their spleen opposing him.
As @Brom points out the rebellions may well be smaller too.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Hancock full of praise for South African work on genomics - impressive for an emerging economy to have done more than Germany, France, Italy...in fact only 4 EU members (Denmark, Spain, Netherlands & Ireland) have done more.....
To be fair, we did get a vaccine out of Germany.
When it comes to "which virus variant" they've got they're largely flying blind - we're sampling 90 times as many tests as Germany is. They could easily have both the "UK" (sic) and "South African" (sic) variants running amok and it will take them a while to find out. It's no surprise that the other country in Europe to identify they've got it is Denmark - because they're testing.....
The biochemical - as opposed to chemical - industry in Germany is interesting.
A serious problem is the Green fixation on BioTech = Evul. Which has ended up with laughable restrictions on school level experiments.
I'd far rather be where the UK and Denmark is - knowing we've got a problem, than France or Germany sitting on "unexplained" rises in cases.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.
Mr. Eagles, I voted against a far left lunatic. Just as I'd vote for a Labour idiot if the alternative for PM was a member of the far right.
As for the referendum, I voted to leave the EU. That isn't a vote for or against any individual, any more than your vote to remain was an endorsement of Guy Verhofstadt[sp] or Tony Blair.
If you care to remember, though you may not as it doesn't agreed with the slanted comment you make, I excoriated Conservative MPs for backing Boris Johnson as PM. When he was Foreign Secretary I said he was unworthy to be in Cabinet, let alone lead it. And I've said for some time the Conservatives should axe him and let someone who isn't a blithering idiot be PM.
I predict very strong post-transition growth in 2021 📈 and 2022 📈
Probably two years with the fast growth recorded in decades.
I would expect there'll be quite a lot of post-CV19 bounce. But I'd be surprised if there was any meaningful near term additional economic growth driven by Brexit.
In the real world of course, the UK economy is already 8/9% smaller than per pandemic. and the new measures being introduced now probably mean a further recession.
Our deficit is USD240bn over 8 months, reaching USD400bn by next April. Probably more if shagger Ferguson gets his way and there is another full lockdown in January.
That full lockdown will be the last straw for a further swathe of businesses. Paul Johnson of the IFS said the other day a great deal of further damage will be done in the following years when we will still be running very large deficits, because it will be impossible to get back to normal quickly.
Real cost of COVID 19? its going to be close to a trillion pounds all told. That's always supposing Ferguson & Co don;t dream up another threat next year, which right now looks pretty likely, given their track record.
POst covid 19? there is no post covid 19. There is no prosper mightily and there is no getting out of this.
The only things that are getting us out of this is running out of money, or people deciding the risks are worth getting their lives back.
Weren't you posting links about how well the US economy was performing as restrictions were removed?
The same will happen in the UK. (And even in France and Germany.) The levels of debt the UK government has are about the same as 1967, when the economy performed (checks) actually rather well.
Businesses will go out of business.
You know what? That sucks for the owners. But that's a feature of capitalism.
New businesses spring up. Did you know that in the US there's a direct relationship between rate of business failure and economic growth: states with more business failures perform better. Why? Because business failure is capital being deployed more efficiently. It's a feature, not a bug.
And finally, you know that big government debt. Most of it is owed to the BoE. It will never be repaid back.
We are not removing restrictions. We are increasing them. Hugely.
And businesses are going out of business not because they are unviable in a free market, but because of government order.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
But look at the other options -
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
On another note entirely, the latest YouGov has very stark numbers for both Labour and Tory on the age of their demographics. Labour's vote is very strongly concentrated on students and those of working age. The Tories only lead in the 65+ bracket, but by a huge margin. https://twitter.com/hyweldjones/status/1341697223831248896
Formal government vaccination statistics tomorrow. Good.
Zahawi hunting round for a fag packet on which to record the official data.
Excellent post of yours on PT, Sandy, about what Labour should be all about. Disagree with a fair amount of it - as I would being one of those North London types you give a lashing to - but very effectively expressed.
Interesting point with it is that of the many "likes" it garnered almost all are from right wing posters. Make of this what you will.
Thanks. Clearly we have an internal debate over what the Labour Party is for.
And I hope it is conducted as a debate and not an argument. I don't mean between the likes of us, but between those at top of the party and its affiliates.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Mr. Pete, if you think I'm a 'Johnson-ramping Tory' I'd gently suggest that doesn't necessarily line up with what I've been saying about the clown for years...
Yet you twice voted for Johnson in his only two UK wide electoral events.
You sir are a clown enabler.
So who is the bigger clown? The clown, or the clown following the clown?
No, he voted for his quality local parliamentary candidate.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
I must say my personal experience was that it was incredibly safe and the correct measures were well implemented.
It's arguably the families of the players and the coaching staff I feel get the hardest deal. Lower down the leagues missing fixtures through positive tests will be costing the clubs a lot of money and the risk of catching it must be that much higher when you're mixing as they do.
Interestingly for all the amazing tech and general prep South Korea have done since SARs, I remember esrly on in this crisis watching an interview with a South Korean academic who said we (as in SK) won't be the ones producing a vaccine or medicines...our biotech companies and universities have had loads of money from the government and nothing ever to show.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.
The report I read hypothesised that Patient Zero was an immunocompromised individual who struggled for a while - thus giving the virus the time to mutate/infect others - I don't know if there's any more to it than that, or speculation on the treatment Patient Zero received.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
It is a matter of time, yes, but speeding evolution up 10 fold is perhaps not a good idea. New vaccines can be made but not necessarily that quickly.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
The quickest path to herd immunity is through vaccination of the existing strains. Locking down as hard as possible is the correct thing to do - if you let up restrictions, you just give the virus more chance to mutate and escape the clutches of the vaccines.
Indeed. But the big jump in mutation was odd - it was completely outside the normal rate for this virus. If using antibody serum can cause this then we shouldn't use it.
The report I read hypothesised that Patient Zero was an immunocompromised individual who struggled for a while - thus giving the virus the time to mutate/infect others - I don't know if there's any more to it than that, or speculation on the treatment Patient Zero received.
Yes, it is just a hypothesis - basically speculation. Nobody really knows. It is how we managed to breed MRSA though...
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
Interestingly for all the amazing tech and general prep South Korea have done since SARs, I remember early on in this crisis watching an interview with a South Korean academic who said we (as in SK) won't be the ones producing a vaccine or medicines...our biotech companies and universities have had loads of money from the government and nothing ever to show.
South Korea ranks below Saudi Arabia in the genome stakes:
Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
But look at the other options -
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.
I'm one of the biggest remainers out there and I have no problem with him voting yes as long as he says that as soon as he is in power he will ask the EU for a better (i.e. closer one). Anyone who thinks this deal will mean the end of Brexit is living in Dreamland.
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
Why on earth did we allow fans into grounds? Why on earth are we still doing so?
This kind of unwinding of restrictions could have been left until the spring.
Not sure there's any connection between the virus spreading and spaced out fans at football. It's certainly been 2 of the most enjoyable occasions for me in the past 6 months - even if we lost both matches!
The biggest connection might be psychological, it gives people a false impression things are getting better which leads them to taking more risks across their life. Clubs are not gaining anything by having 2 matches of 2000 fans then getting stopped again, it will be costing them money in training, admin and moving people on and off furlough. From a league perspective is it fair that only Liverpool and Everton have home fans?
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
I must say my personal experience was that it was incredibly safe and the correct measures were well implemented.
It's arguably the families of the players and the coaching staff I feel get the hardest deal. Lower down the leagues missing fixtures through positive tests will be costing the clubs a lot of money and the risk of catching it must be that much higher when you're mixing as they do.
If everyone is outdoors, masked and household groups are 6 feet apart it'll be safe. Indoors as per the recent Joshua fight, absolubtely not.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
Paying more to get the vaccine earlier makes a lot of sense. The gains you make at the other end in in terms of economic activity will far outstrip the initial investment. This was exactly the same as my thinking way back when the argument was all about how much we should pay the EU to get a deal done. I'd have paid whatever as the amount would have been trivial in comparison to the gains we would have made in terms of business investment etc on the back of the certainty. Seems like a long time ago now!
Read your (vg) post on PT about you and your dad, re generational conflict, and it reminded me of something with mine quite recently.
Chatting to him about a doctor's appointment he'd had and he said to me -
"It was a new bloke. Hadn't seen him before. He was Indian but he was fine."
I said why the but? He was mortified. Said "oh god, what an arsehole I am, that says something about me, doesn't it? It shows how deep-seated some of my outdated attitudes are. Thanks for pointing it out, son."
I smiled gently and said he wasn't an arsehole, no way. The fact he now got it, and so quickly, showed the very opposite. But that he should remain vigilant. Try not to embarrass himself again like that in my presence.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
The PM timing his victory/surrender (take your pick or somewhere in between) perfectly for a Christmas present, and to give his beloved optimism for the new year. Well, perfectly for his short term popularity, shit for business who have no time to prepare and have faced ridiculous uncertainty.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
and the Danes, Norwegians and Swedes also have those benefits with far fewer dead.
In fact, isn't the Swedish economy worse affected than those others given the impact of the worse health impact?
The PM timing his victory/surrender (take your pick or somewhere in between) perfectly for a Christmas present, and to give his beloved optimism for the new year. Well, perfectly for his short term popularity, shit for business who have no time to prepare and have faced ridiculous uncertainty.
Yep. Pathetic.
Pathetic? Good negotiations always go to the wire.
What would be pathetic is if anyone tried to pretend we could have gotten the same deal from Barnier months ago. You're not going to try something so credulous are you?
Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.
Read your (vg) post on PT about you and your dad, re generational conflict, and it reminded me of something with mine quite recently.
Chatting to him about a doctor's appointment he'd had and he said to me -
"It was a new bloke. Hadn't seen him before. He was Indian but he was fine."
I said why the but? He was mortified. Said "oh god, what an arsehole I am, that says something about me, doesn't it? It shows how deep-seated some of my outdated attitudes are. Thanks for pointing it out, son."
I smiled gently and said he wasn't an arsehole, no way. The fact he now got it, and so quickly, showed the very opposite. But that he should remain vigilant. Try not to embarrass himself again like that in my presence.
A lot of elderly are deaf and have trouble picking up Indian accents (assuming they were Indian and not Brummie or whatever). Sometimes all "fine" means is that they could hear them properly. I don't know if this is the case with your dad.
I had fun with getting my dad sorted out with something at the bank. He could not understand a word on the telephone to their Indian call centre and they wouldn't speak to me, so we had to go to the branch. The branch rang up the same call centre and put him on the phone. Doh!
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.
It's nuts. "How many dead Europeans were your cheaper vaccines worth?" is the obvious riposte. I'm not even sure it's true - its not clear that the time was spent haggling over price rather than in deciding what to buy - which may reflect the EU's decision to compromise the EMA capacity by moving it at haste to Amsterdam.
It's a really stupid argument. Given what COVID-19 is costing us we'd pay a huge amount for a working vaccine available in volume today. Even something on the order of £1,000 per dose would be worth it if we could be out of this mess soon.
It's nuts. "How many dead Europeans were your cheaper vaccines worth?" is the obvious riposte. I'm not even sure it's true - its not clear that the time was spent haggling over price rather than in deciding what to buy - which may reflect the EU's decision to compromise the EMA capacity by moving it at haste to Amsterdam.
It's almost as if those clamouring for the UK to join the EU scheme were doing so on ideological grounds... titter.
Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.
The delicious irony is that had Labour abstained on May's deal it could have torn the Tories apart. While Labour could have pledged to build on and move further than May.
5...4....3...2...1....masses of tweets about how Boris capitulated...from Remainers and Leavers.
Of all people, surprisingly, Guido Fawkes was actually right when he said earlier 'Any pundit immediately telling you this is a sellout or the best deal in history without having had time to read the thing is either an idiot or a liar. Probably both'.
Though I have my doubts he has concern with certain people, like MPs, having time to read things generally. Not to mention jumping the gun on any announcement from the looks of it.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
I'd rather be duped by Sumption than Ferguson, TBH. The results are much less catastrophic...
How is Sweden these days, I've noticed you've stopped talking about them as the approach to follow.
its economy has shrunk far less than here. many more businesses are intact than here, people are still much freer than here, and they will get your blessed vaccines very soon.
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
Why compare it to here, rather than those nations which are a better comparator with it, like its neighbours? I genuinely don't know how it compares to those economically, though much much worse on deaths, but Sweden and the UK are not the only places in the world and neither is a good comparator for the other.
Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.
I dispute that abstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.
Agreed. It's a nonsense. He needs to make the political judgement as to what is best for Labour. If that is to abstain, then abstain is the correct choice. Johnson has negotiated the deal and has an 80 seat majority. He and the Tory Party have finally got their beloved Brexit done. That's the story right now. Next installment, we see how it pans out. We start the new game - spot the tangible benefit.
Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).
If I were Starmer I'd be asking myself why the Tory Brexiteers seem so desperate for him to support the deal.
If they were convinced it was going to be a rip-roaring success wouldn't they want to claim all the credit themselves?
If he's wise he won't have his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I do agree with you to the extent that in the same way that the Iraq war will always be pinned on Blair despite the Tories supporting it, Brexit will always be pinned on Boris and the Tories.
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.
When you look at the cost of the Oxford Vaccine in particular its peanuts compared to the gains of opening up the economy. The actual programme and workforce will be far more expensive than the vaccine itself I'd imagine.
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.
Getting a small amount of vaccine first doesn't get you to normal, particularly when - as we are doing - economically inactive people are being prioritised (To reduce deaths). Getting to the herd ~ 70% or so level first will be what counts.
If these new variants are due to treatment of immunocompromised people with the antibody serum (as has been speculated), should we ban serum treatment?
It seems the most likely way that we are going to breed strains for which the vaccine won't work.
Bad for the individuals involved, but...
Vaccine resistant strains are only a matter of time, anyway. Whether they exist or not.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
Don't you expect the lockdown to be extended no matter what because you think the government enjoys it?
Hancock definitely enjoys it, I don;t know about the rest. They cannot alter their policy because to do so would admit a colossal, colossal error.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
Sumption is either a liar or just rubbish when it comes to talking about the pandemic, he can be safely ignored.
Shagger Ferguson on the other hand. Towering intellect.
LOL, you keep on falling for Sumption's fake news.
Are the public going to be interested in hearing more screams of betrayal from Farage and ERG nutjobs if a deal is announced.
I doubt it . There really is only upsides for Johnson with a deal . That’s why I never brought this no deal nonsense , with an 80 seat majority the ERG don’t have the numbers and even if they sent letters in Johnson would easily win any challenge .
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etc
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supply has there been any more deliveries beyon the initial 500,000?
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....
I wonder if in a few months time those that support Johnson's deal will be rushing to say how terrible it was. Will history repeat itself?
As for the rest, family is now into Tier 4 and no update on relative's COVID test.
I am getting increasingly depressed this is going to go on for another year and that's making me very sad.
Have a lovely evening.
Good evening to you. Eventful pre-Christmas Eve day. Wife's presents all packed, labelled and under the tree, and there's a pleasant smell of hot mince pies wafting from the kitchen.. Collected presents from Eldest Son & family and handed over ours to them, mysteriously and covertly, in a hotel car park. We weren't the only ones doing that, either.
Good job we had decided to be just us; son-in-law, who was going to be our host has been in a bubble with someone who has tested positive, and he has a cough. Fortunately we were buying the turkey, but he has somewhere else to go. That's at least three in our 'circle' probably positive Eldest Granddaughter, who also coming has consequently arranged to go to her boyfriend's parents and is relieved that Stoke hasn't been 'upped'.
And at least some of those unfortunate lorry drivers are on the move. PBI again!
Are the public going to be interested in hearing more screams of betrayal from Farage and ERG nutjobs if a deal is announced.
I doubt it . There really is only upsides for Johnson with a deal . That’s why I never brought this no deal nonsense , with an 80 seat majority the ERG don’t have the numbers and even if they sent letters in Johnson would easily win any challenge .
Christ, May one a challenge the first time one occurred, I'm sure Boris could. Not being beholden to the ERG was the main reason May went to the country and, though it was needed to get Brexit over the line at all, a major reason Boris went to the country. Despite the noise that lot makes there seems little appetite among other Tories to actively pursue no deal, hence why Boris and co have never just gone for it when they surely have the numbers if they wanted to.
Be interesting to see how many people get angry at not no dealing and retain that anger long enough for a) largish Labour leads, and b) impact at the locals perhaps. I think b won't be as bad as the Tories fear, even though it will be a bad night for them.
Mr. Observer, you're right that the clown will get the praise or blame for the deal, if one is agreed.
However, those who are contemplating whether Starmer is worth backing should he be the candidate for PM opposing the buffoon might consider his decision here a factor of significant weight.
Yes. Obviously. But they won't all want the same thing from him. Some will want him to support the deal, others to oppose it or abstain. Such is the Brexit conundrum for Labour. It was meant to tear the Tory Party apart. Instead it's screwed Labour and delivered the Tories a landslide. Bastard Bastard Brexit. Hate it Hate it Hate it.
For something that is not incontrovertibly a good idea, Brexit does have some wonderful side effects
Starmer abstaining = Starmer accepting no deal as an option. Incredibly easy for his opponenets and the media to frame this argument.
But look at the other options -
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.
I'm one of the biggest remainers out there and I have no problem with him voting yes as long as he says that as soon as he is in power he will ask the EU for a better (i.e. closer one). Anyone who thinks this deal will mean the end of Brexit is living in Dreamland.
A Labour Party trying to partially repeal Brexit and bring back Freedom of Movement etc would be the biggest gift for the Tories there could be. Someone asked on here the other day how Labour could avoid the identity politics trap. The first step in that should be accepting Brexit, accepting the deal, and accepting limited immigration.
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....
And who gets the blame if Germany vaccinates half the population by May while Spain is 3 months behind? A vaccination rollout programme should certainly be one area where EU bureaucracy would have been a hinderance to the UK. We did well to procure the Pfizer vaccine before anywhere else and then to approve it first. The government and medical bodies deserve a lot of credit on that front.
Mr. Pete, Starmer should back the deal, unless there's something horrendous in it.
The alternatives are overtly supporting No Deal (as he's ruled out backing an extension to negotiations) or, on one of the crucial matters of our time, sitting it out because he wants to be able to criticise without troubling himself to express an opinion.
Johnson has a majority of 80, he does not require Labour to back his "pig in a poke" deal. This is a Tory project, Labour should steer well clear. Abstain!
Captain Hindsight to show no leadership on the greatest issue of the day again?
Why are Conservative Brexiteers so keen for Labour to support their deal? I suspect you are setting an enormous elephant trap for the hapless Starmer. When your trade deal fails miserably you can call it the Starmer Deal, he after all supported it.
It's Johnson's deal, just as Iraq was Blair's war. Whether Labour backs it is neither here nor there, really. The bottom line is that any deal is better than no deal. And labour is not going to be arguing about the deal once it is done, it is going to be holding Johnson to account for the promises that he has made about delivering prosperity, levelling up and healing divisions, all while lowering taxes and increasing public spending.
I dispute that anstaining is a mark of Starmer's weakness, as claimed by every Johnson -ramping Tory on PB.
Oh, I agree with that. I just don't think it's a big issue. Whether Labour backs a deal or abstains is almost entirely irrelevant to the overwhelming majority of the electorate. This will be Johnson's deal and it will be down to Johnson to deliver on the promises he has made to the electorate about increased prosperity, an end to divisions, lower taxes and more public spending. Labour's job is to hold him to account on those. Once a deal is done, the Brexit process is done politically and we finally move on (though obviously not in real life).
If I were Starmer I'd be asking myself why the Tory Brexiteers seem so desperate for him to support the deal.
If they were convinced it was going to be a rip-roaring success wouldn't they want to claim all the credit themselves?
If he's wise he won't have his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I do agree with you to the extent that in the same way that the Iraq war will always be pinned on Blair despite the Tories supporting it, Brexit will always be pinned on Boris and the Tories.
Starmer opposing the deal would be the most interesting choice - I think it would backfire, and therefore I don't think he'll do it. Abstaining is safe, but looks bad for him personally. Again I don't think he'll do it.
My guess is Labour will back the deal and make a lot of noise about having to take the rough with the smooth in the interests of the country. To be honest, for once, they'll be right.
In a mean political sense I'd like Starmer to oppose the deal, but I really hope he doesn't do that - far too devisive for the country going forwards.
No real view as to whether I'd prefer Starmer to abstain or vote for a deal. I'm quite keen that Starmer fights off the left though. The worst of all possible worlds is Corbyn and his chums, and I'll happily take a small risk of Labour moderates being popular over any possible route in for the Islington ghastly.
Plenty of reports indicate that European voters are up in arms about the delayed vaccinations, vis a vis UK/USA etc
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.
Start in Spain 27/12 will be negligible difference between county’s in a month depending on supply has there been any more deliveries beyon the initial 500,000?
Well, yes: supply
Ireland - as part of the EU Consortium - is getting its first vaccines on 30th December. The initial allotment is... 10,000 doses.
We paid twice as much to ensure we received the vaccine first. Which is money well spent if you have a choice between things returning to something like normality versus another 6 months in lockdown.
I don't even think it was twice as much. But worth every penny whatever was paid.
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.
The EU are rolling it out on a population basis - much as the UK is, so Germany gets 18%.....
And who gets the blame if Germany vaccinates half the population by May while Spain is 3 months behind? A vaccination rollout programme should certainly be one area where EU bureaucracy would have been a hinderance to the UK. We did well to procure the Pfizer vaccine before anywhere else and then to approve it first. The government and medical bodies deserve a lot of credit on that front.
Vaccine distribution will be every Monday to the individual communities to organize distribution I’m sure someone has the ‘facts’ about how much and when is distributed in each country but it’s far more fun to make them up to fit your own narrative.
The Spiegel story - according to my French friends - is going down like a lead ballon.
As in "untrue" or "rumbled"?
"Not surprising" is the common theme so far - the bit about the French government blocking a bigger buy unless the French company got a bigger order....
It is, after all, the country, where when the propellors failed for the new aircraft carrier, there was a fire at the company in question. In the middle of the night. In the records office. Which destroyed one filing cabinet..... Everyone I knew just shrugged.
Comments
https://twitter.com/Sport_EN/status/1341770602068258816
Just how fecked must Barca be?
Lockdown is not just for christmas
and vaccines will not set us free.
Interesting point with it is that of the many "likes" it garnered almost all are from right wing posters. Make of this what you will.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8BEyPzHsVo
You sir are a clown enabler.
So who is the bigger clown? The clown, or the clown following the clown?
Bill passes
326 - 123
The same will happen in the UK. (And even in France and Germany.) The levels of debt the UK government has are about the same as 1967, when the economy performed (checks) actually rather well.
Businesses will go out of business.
You know what? That sucks for the owners. But that's a feature of capitalism.
New businesses spring up. Did you know that in the US there's a direct relationship between rate of business failure and economic growth: states with more business failures perform better. Why? Because business failure is capital being deployed more efficiently. It's a feature, not a bug.
And finally, you know that big government debt. Most of it is owed to the BoE. It will never be repaid back.
I thought we learnt all this from antibiotic resistance.
But yes, I guess there will have been a few hundred thousand fan visits across the leagues that have been enjoyed.
As @Brom points out the rebellions may well be smaller too.
Catch you in late March, when lockdown is being extended because vaccine resistant strains of covid have been discovered.
As for the referendum, I voted to leave the EU. That isn't a vote for or against any individual, any more than your vote to remain was an endorsement of Guy Verhofstadt[sp] or Tony Blair.
If you care to remember, though you may not as it doesn't agreed with the slanted comment you make, I excoriated Conservative MPs for backing Boris Johnson as PM. When he was Foreign Secretary I said he was unworthy to be in Cabinet, let alone lead it. And I've said for some time the Conservatives should axe him and let someone who isn't a blithering idiot be PM.
https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1341773548155748358?s=20
And businesses are going out of business not because they are unviable in a free market, but because of government order.
But we shall see.
I advise bitcoin. Even now.
But that's quite enough from me, I think.
Vote Yes, become collaborators and detract from the Tory Party's ownership of Brexit. Piss off lots of Remainers. Can be taken as approval of the actual deal, ie Johnson did a good job.
Vote No, allow in spades the "accepting No Deal" spin and (potentially more damaging) could be taken by Red Wall Leavers as committing that most cardinal of sins, "trying to stop Brexit".
Abstain works for me.
https://twitter.com/hyweldjones/status/1341697223831248896
And I hope it is conducted as a debate and not an argument. I don't mean between the likes of us, but between those at top of the party and its affiliates.
If only there were a vaccination against stupidity!
Oh...
It's arguably the families of the players and the coaching staff I feel get the hardest deal. Lower down the leagues missing fixtures through positive tests will be costing the clubs a lot of money and the risk of catching it must be that much higher when you're mixing as they do.
https://twitter.com/Nadine_Writes/status/1341777465174274048
Interestingly for all the amazing tech and general prep South Korea have done since SARs, I remember esrly on in this crisis watching an interview with a South Korean academic who said we (as in SK) won't be the ones producing a vaccine or medicines...our biotech companies and universities have had loads of money from the government and nothing ever to show.
https://twitter.com/NicKeaney/status/1341776469694046210?s=20
39,237 cases, 744 deaths, 2,004 admissions, 453,903 tests.
Lord Sumption called the government's advisors 'fanatics'. Prof John Lee said they encompass far too narrow a strand of scientific opinion, and there is much vested interest and reputational concern. None will ever miss a nice paycheck from any decision they make. A couple of the committee are avowed communists. None has any accountability or sanction.
I doubt they will ever stop locking us down, or ever recommend a full and complete end to restrictions. Do you think they will?
https://twitter.com/ianjamesparsley/status/1341777896873074691?s=20
https://twitter.com/imperialcollege/status/1341319768083734528
https://twitter.com/kcorazo/status/1341670048927109120?s=20
Indoors as per the recent Joshua fight, absolubtely not.
Read your (vg) post on PT about you and your dad, re generational conflict, and it reminded me of something with mine quite recently.
Chatting to him about a doctor's appointment he'd had and he said to me -
"It was a new bloke. Hadn't seen him before. He was Indian but he was fine."
I said why the but? He was mortified. Said "oh god, what an arsehole I am, that says something about me, doesn't it? It shows how deep-seated some of my outdated attitudes are. Thanks for pointing it out, son."
I smiled gently and said he wasn't an arsehole, no way. The fact he now got it, and so quickly, showed the very opposite. But that he should remain vigilant. Try not to embarrass himself again like that in my presence.
Given tome every one of the anti-lockdown claims is shown to fail.
That's how Sweden is. In a much better place to taken on the challenges of the post covid world (if it ever comes), than here.
In fact, isn't the Swedish economy worse affected than those others given the impact of the worse health impact?
Sure I saw some data on here showing that.
What would be pathetic is if anyone tried to pretend we could have gotten the same deal from Barnier months ago. You're not going to try something so credulous are you?
I wonder if in a few months time those that support Johnson's deal will be rushing to say how terrible it was. Will history repeat itself?
As for the rest, family is now into Tier 4 and no update on relative's COVID test.
I am getting increasingly depressed this is going to go on for another year and that's making me very sad.
Have a lovely evening.
I had fun with getting my dad sorted out with something at the bank. He could not understand a word on the telephone to their Indian call centre and they wouldn't speak to me, so we had to go to the branch. The branch rang up the same call centre and put him on the phone. Doh!
Thank goodness that didn't happen.
Love it love it love it.
Though I have my doubts he has concern with certain people, like MPs, having time to read things generally. Not to mention jumping the gun on any announcement from the looks of it. Why compare it to here, rather than those nations which are a better comparator with it, like its neighbours? I genuinely don't know how it compares to those economically, though much much worse on deaths, but Sweden and the UK are not the only places in the world and neither is a good comparator for the other.
If they were convinced it was going to be a rip-roaring success wouldn't they want to claim all the credit themselves?
If he's wise he won't have his fingerprints anywhere near it.
I do agree with you to the extent that in the same way that the Iraq war will always be pinned on Blair despite the Tories supporting it, Brexit will always be pinned on Boris and the Tories.
The EU have made a mess of their rollout. We may well have arguments here over who and where is first in the queue but it could be a huge cause of conflict if the big EU players are at the front of their queue.
Real pressure on European politicians. This is an attempt to deflect that ire.
The Germans must be particularly hacked off with the govt, given that a German company invented the first vaccine.
I doubt it . There really is only upsides for Johnson with a deal . That’s why I never brought this no deal nonsense , with an 80 seat majority the ERG don’t have the numbers and even if they sent letters in Johnson would easily win any challenge .
Good job we had decided to be just us; son-in-law, who was going to be our host has been in a bubble with someone who has tested positive, and he has a cough. Fortunately we were buying the turkey, but he has somewhere else to go. That's at least three in our 'circle' probably positive
Eldest Granddaughter, who also coming has consequently arranged to go to her boyfriend's parents and is relieved that Stoke hasn't been 'upped'.
And at least some of those unfortunate lorry drivers are on the move. PBI again!
Be interesting to see how many people get angry at not no dealing and retain that anger long enough for a) largish Labour leads, and b) impact at the locals perhaps. I think b won't be as bad as the Tories fear, even though it will be a bad night for them. Depending on speed of rollout as well, that seems about right. Starting as early as possible as obviously great, but won't be the be all and end all.
My guess is Labour will back the deal and make a lot of noise about having to take the rough with the smooth in the interests of the country. To be honest, for once, they'll be right.
In a mean political sense I'd like Starmer to oppose the deal, but I really hope he doesn't do that - far too devisive for the country going forwards.
No real view as to whether I'd prefer Starmer to abstain or vote for a deal. I'm quite keen that Starmer fights off the left though. The worst of all possible worlds is Corbyn and his chums, and I'll happily take a small risk of Labour moderates being popular over any possible route in for the Islington ghastly.
Ireland - as part of the EU Consortium - is getting its first vaccines on 30th December. The initial allotment is... 10,000 doses.
It is, after all, the country, where when the propellors failed for the new aircraft carrier, there was a fire at the company in question. In the middle of the night. In the records office. Which destroyed one filing cabinet..... Everyone I knew just shrugged.