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YouGov finds that if given the chance Britain would overwhelmingly vote Trump out – politicalbetting

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited October 2020 in General
imageYouGov finds that if given the chance Britain would overwhelmingly vote Trump out – politicalbetting.com

With just six days to go until the US Election, a YouGov poll commissioned by Betfair finds 80% of those in the UK that expressed a preference would pick Biden. Just 20% would vote Trump.

Read the full story here

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629
    First like Biden
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    I'll second that.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,536
    edited October 2020
    Fird.

    Please let the Guardian run a campaign for all its highly educated, ethical, thoughtful readers to write individually to US voters to educate them in how they should vote in a non-patronising manner. Just like the tone of everyhing else there.

    I believe they can get the voting register as a public document?

    Clark County, say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/11/a-crazy-british-plot-to-help-kerry.html
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,536
    edited October 2020
    ..
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Trump is too much of a crass American for British tastes. We like our homegrown crazy haired, truth-bending, incompetent, populist nationalists to be covered in a thin veneer of Etonite hypocrisy, faux humility and bluster.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980
    FPT

    Off topic I've had an interesting morning. Turns out my online business bank won't take international payments. Turns out almost none of them will! And high street banks not taking new applications cos CBILS workload - which is why I went to an online provider in the first place.

    Will have to get the client to pay my personal account and transfer it to my business account. Accountants are "its not ideal but you aren't the only client in the same situation"

    Odd! Possibly worth checking the specialist banks dealing with currency exchange like Starling. I've been considering opening an account with them because a quarter of my income comes in Euros and Swiss francs (mostly translation), but First Direct who I bank with just vaguely say they're using the current exchange rate, and I'm not clear whether Starling is really better (does anyone know?). They definitely do business banking, though.
    The bank* in question is Tide. Starling was my first choice, refused to accept my application as despite accepting international payments my client paying me from international for my business which is entirely UK based means I am "based abroad". Same advice from Monzo.

    Tide on the other hand were happy to open an account and to be fair they're easy to deal with, integrate into Quickbooks etc. Hadn't thought to check if they allow electronic transfers because why wouldn't they! There are very very few banks of any description opening business accounts at the moment - and the handful of ones that are have wait times stretching into months!

    I do at least have a business account. Just forces a non-optimal route to get invoices paid into it.

    *not a bank. A banking service provider...
    @RochdalePioneers you should also get a Transferwise account and use that for the payment from your customer to yourself - that will give you more control over exchange rates and should give you a far better rate than even tide offer.

    @NickPalmer While Cyclewise will give you a lot of reasons for not using Revolut as it's a personal rather than business approach I would be using Revolut for the same purpose and from there transfer the money into Sterling and then to First Direct. I really wouldn't be using First Direct or HSBC for overseas transactions I've seen the charges and there is often a 2%+ surcharge hidden within their current exchange rate when I compared it to Revolut.
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    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    I know it's just a flippant comment and the counterfactual is all too remote to be sensible.

    But this poll doesn't suggest we would be a "swing state" as we'd be safer for Biden than, say, California. Indeed, we'd be such a large state (getting on for 100 EVs) that the election wouldn't be anywhere near close.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    YouGov

    Biden 54% (-)
    Trump 43% (+1)

    Changes from yesterday.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    So more British voters would vote for Trump than voted for UKIP in 2015 or voted LD in 2015, 2017 or 2019 even though Biden would still win a big majority amongst British voters.

    As well as amongst Leave and Tory voters Trump gets his highest voteshare in the UK in Northern Ireland at 28%, followed by Yorkshire and Humber at 26% and by Wales at 23%. Biden does best in Scotland where he gets 88%, the North East where he gets 84% and the South West where he gets 83%.
    https://betting.betfair.com/politics/us-politics/us-election-britain-would-vote-trump-out-of-the-white-house-if-given-a-vote-261020-51.html?amp=1
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,718
    "Trump does better with those who voted Leave"
    Anybody surprised?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    Interesting.

    Beto O’Rourke Has Some Final Advice for the Biden Campaign
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/10/28/joe-biden-texas-2020-433088
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Just to confirm. Pennsylvania is where the in play opportunities will be

    https://twitter.com/jeremyherb/status/1321433411748286465
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2020
    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    Surely in this counterfactual, the USA would be part of Canada.
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    Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 7,981
    Alistair said:

    Just to confirm. Pennsylvania is where the in play opportunities will be

    twitter.com/jeremyherb/status/1321433411748286465

    How did Trafalgar do in PA last time? Asking for an activist.......
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    SelebianSelebian Posts: 7,437

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    I know it's just a flippant comment and the counterfactual is all too remote to be sensible.

    But this poll doesn't suggest we would be a "swing state" as we'd be safer for Biden than, say, California. Indeed, we'd be such a large state (getting on for 100 EVs) that the election wouldn't be anywhere near close.
    But with our sober, considered, rational, moderating* influence, US politics might not be so crazy and it would be Biden (or someone better) versus someone left of centre. The GOP would be a fringe UKIP-esque outfit (or Biden would be the GOP candidate and Bernie or a Bernie Bro the Democrat).

    * Oh, wait...
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2020

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    That depends, if Trump gets even more white working class turnout in Michigan and Pennsylvania for example than 2016 plus a few votes from Other candidates and a slightly higher African American vote he could still win.

    While Wisconsin looks lost for him now, even Trafalgar has Biden ahead there, Michigan for example looks a better prospect for him, the ABC poll today has Michigan voters trusting Trump on the economy more than Biden 48% to 44% for example, in Wisconsin voters trust Biden on the economy by 52% to 44% for Trump.

    In Michigan suburban voters still favour Trump by 49% to 46% for Biden, in Wisconsin by contrast suburban voters favour Biden over Trump 56% to 44%.

    Non college educated whites in Michigan favour Trump by 56% to 38% for Biden, in Wisconsin they favour Biden by 49% to 48%
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/covid-surge-hurts-trump-wisconsin-biden-leads-closer/story?id=73834112
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PPP have the Dem candidate ahead in AZ-6 and Biden up by 1 in the District.

    Trump won the District by 10 and the GOP Congressmen won it by 24.

    No cross breaks available.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965
    edited October 2020

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    1 in 36?
    More like rolling an 11 or 12 imho.
    1 in 12.
    Not impossible, but I don't fancy his chances at all.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,985
    MattW said:

    Fird.

    Please let the Guardian run a campaign for all its highly educated, ethical, thoughtful readers to write individually to US voters to educate them in how they should vote in a non-patronising manner. Just like the tone of everyhing else there.

    I believe they can get the voting register as a public document?

    Clark County, say.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2004/11/a-crazy-british-plot-to-help-kerry.html

    Do you ever feel you might be fighting yesterday's culture war?
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    Make
    America
    Great Britain
    Again
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    A Hill article on the Shyden vote:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/523076-democrats-see-signs-of-hidden-biden-voters-flipping-from-gop

    The Hill has a definite (though not outrageous) Republican slant; if they're reporting it, it's real.
    How many shy Biden voters there are, no one knows.
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    Selebian said:

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    I know it's just a flippant comment and the counterfactual is all too remote to be sensible.

    But this poll doesn't suggest we would be a "swing state" as we'd be safer for Biden than, say, California. Indeed, we'd be such a large state (getting on for 100 EVs) that the election wouldn't be anywhere near close.
    But with our sober, considered, rational, moderating* influence, US politics might not be so crazy and it would be Biden (or someone better) versus someone left of centre. The GOP would be a fringe UKIP-esque outfit (or Biden would be the GOP candidate and Bernie or a Bernie Bro the Democrat).

    * Oh, wait...
    These things are fun, but they are all mad counterfactuals. If a radically different course had been taken almost 250 years ago, neither Britain nor America would be the same in all sorts of totally unpredictable ways. One of the more likely in terms of geography, even leaving aside culture and politics, is that the UK wouldn't now be part of the US, but Canada woud be, and Texas wouldn't.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    America was a good idea that got out of hand. We did well to cut it loose when we did.

    Really, Lord North needs nudging up the league table above Cammo, May and Bozo.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Eh?
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,204
    edited October 2020
    Interesting data in the Header. And useful too because it allows us to close out the perennial argument about to what extent the Leave vote was driven by primitive social and cultural attitudes. You know, the old "Some Leavers are like that but by no means all," sentiment. Everyone agrees with this banality but it gets us precisely nowhere unless we can quantify the "Some".

    What proportion of Leavers are thick xenophobes? This is the question one could never answer with confidence before this survey but now we can.

    "Trump does better with those who voted Leave in the referendum with 38% going for the incumbent."

    Viola. A mere 38% of the 17.4m. Not quite 2 in every 5. So there are only of the order 6.6m thick xenophobes in the whole country who voted Leave in 2016. Meaning that 10.8m of those who voted Leave - a clear majority - are NOT thick xenophobes.

    So let this be an end to it. It might be a bitter pill to swallow for Remainers such as myself but it's definitive.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
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    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,259
    edited October 2020

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Yes, of course Democrat turnout in states with less (or no) early voting will be higher on the day than in states with more.

    That's simple maths - the pool of people who will not have voted by election day will include more Democrats than in areas with a lot of early voting.

    Similarly, Republican turnout will be much higher as a percentage of postal votes in Oregon than elsewhere in the country... because Oregon is postal-only.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited October 2020

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    It is the GOP who is doing better in in-person voting across the states, because Dems have been expressly told over and over again to vote early by mail. If there is no in-person EV, especially in Pennsylvania where Republicans do not trust the antics of Governor Wolf, then you can be pretty sure election day will be overwhelmingly Republican.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Nigelb said:

    A Hill article on the Shyden vote:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/523076-democrats-see-signs-of-hidden-biden-voters-flipping-from-gop

    The Hill has a definite (though not outrageous) Republican slant; if they're reporting it, it's real.
    How many shy Biden voters there are, no one knows.

    The voting lines in Philadelphia are going to be something else on election day.
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Eh?
    Most Dems say they will vote before election day.

    Most repubs say they will vote on election day.

    So in general, is it better for the dems if

    1. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is big
    or
    2. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is small
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    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    1 in 36?
    More like rolling an 11 or 12 imho.
    1 in 12.
    Not impossible, but I don't fancy his chances at all.
    A fortnight ago I had it as him rolling a six on one dice. One in six.

    A few days ago I had it as him rolling an 11 or 12 on two dice. One in twelve.

    Today I'd downgrade it to Biden rolling snake eyes. One in thirty six.

    Quite simply time is up. Nothing has changed poll wise from a fortnight ago but that is good news for Biden - most voters have already voted now. Plus the claimed enthusiasm gap' or voter suppression issues aren't happening, turnout is going to be high. So that's closed down a couple of the paths I had thought could lead to Trump winning.

    Now we are simply in catastrophic polling error territory. Late swing, suppression and enthusiasm can't save Trump only something catastrophically wrong in his direction can do and I'd put the odds of that as less than 5%. Hence snake eyes.
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited October 2020
    FPT
    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996, and almost every time before that. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    There's no 'curiously' about it at all.
    I've said before that the Hill is a decent news source, but that their opinion pieces are almost invariably crap.

    Why would I post them ?
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    contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    A Hill article on the Shyden vote:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/523076-democrats-see-signs-of-hidden-biden-voters-flipping-from-gop

    The Hill has a definite (though not outrageous) Republican slant; if they're reporting it, it's real.
    How many shy Biden voters there are, no one knows.

    The voting lines in Philadelphia are going to be something else on election day.
    The voting lines everywhere are going to be something else on election day.
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,186
    Unfortunately we are without a vote.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    The whole of Nottinghamshire is expected to enter England’s strictest coronavirus restrictions by the end of the week.

    It is understood that pubs, bars and other venues will be forced to close across the east Midlands county from Friday.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited October 2020
    FPT

    Shops and gyms will reopen on 9 November, when a short "firebreak" lockdown in Wales comes to an end, it has been confirmed. The Welsh government's counsel general Jeremy Miles made the announcement, saying ministers were working on a new set of national rules to replace the firebreak restrictions.

    So not an extension to the firebreak, just a new harsher set of "national rules" than were previously in place prior to the firebreak....

    It shows the limitations of Drakeford as a politician.

    Parts of Wales (Caerffili) have been in lockdown since 8 Sept. The cases in Wales continue to rise & Drakeford imposes ever more severe lockdowns with an increasingly irrational set of rules.

    For example, while "non-essential goods" cannot be sold in supermarkets, nonetheless Cardiff Airport remains open. (The massively loss-making Cardiff Airport is owned by the Welsh Government). It is perfectly fine to leave lockdown areas to travel to Cardiff Airport & get on an airplane.

    Only Drakeford could end up with banning the sale of Playdough but permitting international air travel in a Time Of Coronavirus.
  • Options
    And the liberal left love to complain about how low brow the Mail and the Sun are....

    Front page of the BBC News site...Lily Allen talks about wanking.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-54712504
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,280
    Another date for the diary.... young Rishi’s doing a Spending Review on 25 Nov
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,122
    Fivethirtyeight has an article on a string of good polls for Biden in the Midwest (including a 17-point lead in Wisconsin from a pollster it rates as A+), suggesting that Trump may be suffering because of the current spike in COVID-19 infections in the region:
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-to-make-of-that-new-wisconsin-poll-that-has-biden-way-ahead/
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Eh?
    Most Dems say they will vote before election day.

    Most repubs say they will vote on election day.

    So in general, is it better for the dems if

    1. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is big
    or
    2. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is small
    You cannot vote before election day in PA unless you have an absentee ballot. It's not the same as Texas or Georgia where you can just rock up to a polling station and vote as if it was November 3rd.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    YouGov

    Biden 54% (-)
    Trump 43% (+1)

    Changes from yesterday.

    HYUFD will point out that at the rate of one point a day Trump will only be 4 points behind on election day and allowing for a 3% margin of error Trump wins!

    Get out the champagne Boris! What about a bank holiday?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Did your pollster friend tell you the GOP were going to win 2018 bigly?
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,965

    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    1 in 36?
    More like rolling an 11 or 12 imho.
    1 in 12.
    Not impossible, but I don't fancy his chances at all.
    A fortnight ago I had it as him rolling a six on one dice. One in six.

    A few days ago I had it as him rolling an 11 or 12 on two dice. One in twelve.

    Today I'd downgrade it to Biden rolling snake eyes. One in thirty six.

    Quite simply time is up. Nothing has changed poll wise from a fortnight ago but that is good news for Biden - most voters have already voted now. Plus the claimed enthusiasm gap' or voter suppression issues aren't happening, turnout is going to be high. So that's closed down a couple of the paths I had thought could lead to Trump winning.

    Now we are simply in catastrophic polling error territory. Late swing, suppression and enthusiasm can't save Trump only something catastrophically wrong in his direction can do and I'd put the odds of that as less than 5%. Hence snake eyes.
    Fair enough. Thanks for your answer.
    My main worry is that Biden loses Texas, Georgia and Arizona by less than 1%. Trump hangs on to enough of those he took last time by similar margins to win the EC with an even larger popular vote deficit (Which evidence seems to bake in).
    It's unlikely to fall so perfectly, but not impossible.
  • Options
    guybrushguybrush Posts: 237

    And the liberal left love to complain about how low brow the Mail and the Sun are....

    Front page of the BBC News site...Lily Allen talks about wanking.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-54712504

    Great stuff. In the name of equality, I suggest a male equivalent is required. Any suggestions - there must be a B-lister down on their luck looking for suitable *ahem* product endorsement opportunities.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,718

    FPT

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996, and almost every time before that. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
    But if Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania revert to type it won't matter.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,985
    Roger said:

    YouGov

    Biden 54% (-)
    Trump 43% (+1)

    Changes from yesterday.

    HYUFD will point out that at the rate of one point a day Trump will only be 4 points behind on election day and allowing for a 3% margin of error Trump wins!

    Get out the champagne Boris! What about a bank holiday?
    True – although this poll is only released weekly I think!
  • Options

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    Ah so in Pennsylvania, unlike every other state in the Union, the dems are going to turn out an army on election day? I see
    Eh?
    Most Dems say they will vote before election day.

    Most repubs say they will vote on election day.

    So in general, is it better for the dems if

    1. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is big
    or
    2. the pre election day vote percentage as a total is small
    Pennsylvania doesn't permit early voting the same way as other states do. That means most Democrats in PA are voting on the day there too. You can't compare PA early voting with other states when it doesn't offer the same facility.

    It's like trying to compare TX mail voting with other states mail voting.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2020
    Roger said:

    YouGov

    Biden 54% (-)
    Trump 43% (+1)

    Changes from yesterday.

    HYUFD will point out that at the rate of one point a day Trump will only be 4 points behind on election day and allowing for a 3% margin of error Trump wins!

    Get out the champagne Boris! What about a bank holiday?
    I repeat the Michigan data I just posted below and Rasmussen has Biden now ahead nationally by only 2% and IBD by less than 5%

    'While Wisconsin looks lost for him now, even Trafalgar has Biden ahead there, Michigan for example looks a better prospect for him, the ABC poll today has Michigan voters trusting Trump on the economy more than Biden 48% to 44% for example, in Wisconsin voters trust Biden on the economy by 52% to 44% for Trump.

    In Michigan suburban voters still favour Trump by 49% to 46% for Biden, in Wisconsin by contrast suburban voters favour Biden over Trump 56% to 44%.

    Non college educated whites in Michigan favour Trump by 56% to 38% for Biden, in Wisconsin they favour Biden by 49% to 48%'
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/covid-surge-hurts-trump-wisconsin-biden-leads-closer/story?id=73834112
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    FPT

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996, and almost every time before that. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
    But if Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania revert to type it won't matter.
    If you aren't winning over the equivalent people in one of the representative states, you aren't going to win states with more of these demographics. That's why Ohio and Florida are bellwethers.
  • Options

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    It is the GOP who is doing better in in-person voting across the states, because Dems have been expressly told over and over again to vote early by mail. If there is no in-person EV, especially in Pennsylvania where Republicans do not trust the antics of Governor Wolf, then you can be pretty sure election day will be overwhelmingly Republican.
    Where are you getting that from?

    The Democrats have been warning about the Feds attempts to interfere with the mail voting for ages and have been warning to ensure people vote and get counted. So where are you getting claims that Democrats won't be voting in person from? They have been across the country.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    Is this because the media didn't run with the White House press release claiming to have ended the pandemic ?

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1321454134785028097
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    While the uptick in Sweden is quite recent, it also looks ominous.

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1321442438515478528
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    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Looking at the polls out so far today I can't see how anyone can still be betting on Trump.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    edited October 2020
    Of course this isn't proof - people regions with mask mandates might be those more inclined to take Covid precautions generally, but it's strong evidence.

    https://twitter.com/Atul_Gawande/status/1321408834330677249
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Looking at the polls out so far today I can't see how anyone can still be betting on Trump.

    One more time

    'While Wisconsin looks lost for him now, even Trafalgar has Biden ahead there, Michigan for example looks a better prospect for him, the ABC poll today has Michigan voters trusting Trump on the economy more than Biden 48% to 44% for example, in Wisconsin voters trust Biden on the economy by 52% to 44% for Trump.

    In Michigan suburban voters still favour Trump by 49% to 46% for Biden, in Wisconsin by contrast suburban voters favour Biden over Trump 56% to 44%.

    Non college educated whites in Michigan favour Trump by 56% to 38% for Biden, in Wisconsin they favour Biden by 49% to 48%'
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/covid-surge-hurts-trump-wisconsin-biden-leads-closer/story?id=73834112
  • Options
    SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 6,259
    edited October 2020

    FPT

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
    Missouri had a run of "picking the winner" in 12 elections to 2004, and only had one miss in a century. California picked 19 out of 21 up to 1996. Things change - one got redder, the other bluer, and neither is even remotely a bellwether these days.

    Colorado was a pretty strong Republican state, and voted for Bob Dole in his heavy defeat in 1996... it subsequently shifted to became the tipping point state in 2008 AND 2012, and has moved far enough that it's unlikely to be competitive this year or for a while.

    A run since 1996 in a state which continues to be fairly finely balanced isn't at all surprising, particularly when three of those elections (1996, 2008 and 2012) weren't all that close. Florida is still competitive, but has tended to move a little towards the GOP this century in various levels of election. Ditto Ohio. Other states have got bluer, and some that weren't all that competitive now are.
  • Options
    MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601

    FPT

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996, and almost every time before that. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
    But if Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania revert to type it won't matter.
    If you aren't winning over the equivalent people in one of the representative states, you aren't going to win states with more of these demographics. That's why Ohio and Florida are bellwethers.
    There aren't many Cuban Americans in the midwest...
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    Nigelb said:

    Of course this isn't proof - people regions with mask mandates might be those more inclined to take Covid precautions generally, but it's strong evidence.

    https://twitter.com/Atul_Gawande/status/1321408834330677249

    "but Sweden"
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The insane 17 point Wisconsin poll

    1,451,462 have already voted
    37% in the poll say they have voted

    That means the Likely Voter screen says a total turnout of 4 million people

    Wisconsin only has 3,583,804 voters total.

    DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER.
  • Options
    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998

    Looking at the polls out so far today I can't see how anyone can still be betting on Trump.

    You have to price in the election not being free and fair. God knows how you price that in.
    I bet on Trump to win the EC in 2016, this year I'm steering clear of all president markets. If I had faith in US democracy in 2020, I'd be all in on Biden.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2020
    The Cook Report has moved Texas into the Tossup column:

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/bidens-path-270-widens-trumps-path-narrows-texas-moves-toss

    (The whole article is well worth a read).

    The gap between the forecasting sites/pundits and the betting markets is becoming a chasm.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.

    If Biden wins a landslide yes, if Trump narrowly wins the EC again but Biden wins the popular vote will you do the same?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Alistair said:

    The insane 17 point Wisconsin poll

    1,451,462 have already voted
    37% in the poll say they have voted

    That means the Likely Voter screen says a total turnout of 4 million people

    Wisconsin only has 3,583,804 voters total.

    DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER.

    What's Biden's lead amongst already voted ?
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817
    IanB2 said:

    The whole of Nottinghamshire is expected to enter England’s strictest coronavirus restrictions by the end of the week.

    It is understood that pubs, bars and other venues will be forced to close across the east Midlands county from Friday.

    Remembering some talk about why Nottingham was one of the areas to enter Tier 3 despite their overall infection rate decreasing:



    More and more areas are going to be like that. The inevitable leakage across the age ranges has been occurring. Hospitalisations are likely to increase even if overall infection rates start to fall, because that will conceal a multitude. We need the infection rates in these demographics to start coming down.
  • Options
    Mal557Mal557 Posts: 662
    The ABC +17 WI poll today is clearly an outlier despite it being from an A rated pollster. However I do think the reason Trump is doing badly is Covid is especially bad there right now and images of super spreading rallies while the state is struggling very badly with the virus again is part for what is probably a knee jerk reaction more in this particular poll, However on voting day (and in the few days of up front voting left) this factor will still be there. Trump isnt getting close in WI.
    Michigan is closer but I'm still confident Biden's winning there, its PA or bust for me for Biden. I know he has other potential routes without it but as I posted earlier I think he will be close in the sun belt states but not enough to take him home without PA as well.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601

    Looking at the polls out so far today I can't see how anyone can still be betting on Trump.

    Look at the Rolls Royce share price today and figure how anyone could have bought shares over the last couple of months.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,985
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    1 in 36?
    More like rolling an 11 or 12 imho.
    1 in 12.
    Not impossible, but I don't fancy his chances at all.
    A fortnight ago I had it as him rolling a six on one dice. One in six.

    A few days ago I had it as him rolling an 11 or 12 on two dice. One in twelve.

    Today I'd downgrade it to Biden rolling snake eyes. One in thirty six.

    Quite simply time is up. Nothing has changed poll wise from a fortnight ago but that is good news for Biden - most voters have already voted now. Plus the claimed enthusiasm gap' or voter suppression issues aren't happening, turnout is going to be high. So that's closed down a couple of the paths I had thought could lead to Trump winning.

    Now we are simply in catastrophic polling error territory. Late swing, suppression and enthusiasm can't save Trump only something catastrophically wrong in his direction can do and I'd put the odds of that as less than 5%. Hence snake eyes.
    Fair enough. Thanks for your answer.
    My main worry is that Biden loses Texas, Georgia and Arizona by less than 1%. Trump hangs on to enough of those he took last time by similar margins to win the EC with an even larger popular vote deficit (Which evidence seems to bake in).
    It's unlikely to fall so perfectly, but not impossible.
    This is exactly the scenario that worries me – and has led me to back Trump to win.
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    tlg86 said:
    I just think all the diehard Pizza Hut fans out there need to move on. The guy chose Pizza Express - get over it.
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    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Nigelb said:

    Of course this isn't proof - people regions with mask mandates might be those more inclined to take Covid precautions generally, but it's strong evidence.

    https://twitter.com/Atul_Gawande/status/1321408834330677249

    "but Sweden"
    '...But Nerys!'
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    Nigelb said:

    Of course this isn't proof - people regions with mask mandates might be those more inclined to take Covid precautions generally, but it's strong evidence.

    https://twitter.com/Atul_Gawande/status/1321408834330677249

    "but Sweden"
    Why, did they have regions with and without mask mandates to make the comparison ?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,985
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.

    If Biden wins a landslide yes, if Trump narrowly wins the EC again but Biden wins the popular vote will you do the same?

    What about if Biden wins a narrow EC victory?

    If Biden wins I for one will be delighted to admit I was wrong to forecast a Trump win.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,294
    kinabalu said:

    Interesting data in the Header. And useful too because it allows us to close out the perennial argument about to what extent the Leave vote was driven by primitive social and cultural attitudes. You know, the old "Some Leavers are like that but by no means all," sentiment. Everyone agrees with this banality but it gets us precisely nowhere unless we can quantify the "Some".

    What proportion of Leavers are thick xenophobes? This is the question one could never answer with confidence before this survey but now we can.

    "Trump does better with those who voted Leave in the referendum with 38% going for the incumbent."

    Viola. A mere 38% of the 17.4m. Not quite 2 in every 5. So there are only of the order 6.6m thick xenophobes in the whole country who voted Leave in 2016. Meaning that 10.8m of those who voted Leave - a clear majority - are NOT thick xenophobes.

    So let this be an end to it. It might be a bitter pill to swallow for Remainers such as myself but it's definitive.

    Thank you @kinabalu . As a Biden supporting leaver I am overwhelmed with your generosity of spirit.
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    Alistair said:

    The insane 17 point Wisconsin poll

    1,451,462 have already voted
    37% in the poll say they have voted

    That means the Likely Voter screen says a total turnout of 4 million people

    Wisconsin only has 3,583,804 voters total.

    DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER.

    So Northern Ireland not the only place where the dead may vote?
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    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,249

    If only the British had said, "Well it's a fair point, The King needs the taxation so let's do something about representation" and given the colonials some seats at Westminster, Britain might now be a key swing state...

    Surely in this counterfactual, the USA would be part of Canada.
    Canada never had representation at Westminster. The scenario is presumably for something like an Act of Union with the colonies. Then you end up with the United Kingdom of Great Britain, North-East America, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa before you have to decide what to do about India.

    That's as long as the US War of Independence didn't simply happen later when slavery is abolished...
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    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    1 in 36?
    More like rolling an 11 or 12 imho.
    1 in 12.
    Not impossible, but I don't fancy his chances at all.
    A fortnight ago I had it as him rolling a six on one dice. One in six.

    A few days ago I had it as him rolling an 11 or 12 on two dice. One in twelve.

    Today I'd downgrade it to Biden rolling snake eyes. One in thirty six.

    Quite simply time is up. Nothing has changed poll wise from a fortnight ago but that is good news for Biden - most voters have already voted now. Plus the claimed enthusiasm gap' or voter suppression issues aren't happening, turnout is going to be high. So that's closed down a couple of the paths I had thought could lead to Trump winning.

    Now we are simply in catastrophic polling error territory. Late swing, suppression and enthusiasm can't save Trump only something catastrophically wrong in his direction can do and I'd put the odds of that as less than 5%. Hence snake eyes.
    Fair enough. Thanks for your answer.
    My main worry is that Biden loses Texas, Georgia and Arizona by less than 1%. Trump hangs on to enough of those he took last time by similar margins to win the EC with an even larger popular vote deficit (Which evidence seems to bake in).
    It's unlikely to fall so perfectly, but not impossible.
    It's not impossible but is it really more than a 3% chance given the consistency in the polls and the high voter turnout?
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited October 2020

    Alistair said:
    This is what the Trump rampers miss out on. Trump won the teeniest, tiniest majority in a number of states exaggerating mammothly his electoral college votes.

    To get a majority of the ECVs again he needs to repeat that trick but that is about as plausible as lightning striking the same tree in a forest twice. There is simply no room for error from Trump - if he doesn't hold onto 100% of his votes from last time, if Biden gains extra votes over Clinton last time - then Trump needs to win new votes over and there doesn't seem to be any effort whatsoever into winning new votes into the Trump column.

    Without new votes for Trump, he is out.

    Given the polls and the turnout figures now I reckon Trump's chances of winning are about the same as rolling snake eyes on a pair of dice.
    Turnout in Pennsylvania so far? 30% of 2016 total. six days to go.

    How can anybody predict anything from that? For me that's an alarming low number. Biden needs to get his guys in early, right?

    They ain;t showing up on election day.
    How many times? Pennsylvania does not have early voting unlike Texas, Georgia, etc. It simply has absentee voting which is different. That in part explains why turnout is very low so far.
    It is the GOP who is doing better in in-person voting across the states, because Dems have been expressly told over and over again to vote early by mail. If there is no in-person EV, especially in Pennsylvania where Republicans do not trust the antics of Governor Wolf, then you can be pretty sure election day will be overwhelmingly Republican.
    Where are you getting that from?

    The Democrats have been warning about the Feds attempts to interfere with the mail voting for ages and have been warning to ensure people vote and get counted. So where are you getting claims that Democrats won't be voting in person from? They have been across the country.
    I'm getting that from actually being able to understand early vote figures, and what each campaign has been telling their supporters to do.

    Only where there isn't a vote-by-mail option are they turning up in large numbers for IPEV. The Dems have been pushing voters to mail their votes the whole campaign.

    And by the way there is form of vote-by-mail in Pennsylvania this year, you can request mail ballots and drop them off, as has been discussed on here before. It's not just absentee ballots this year.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601

    The Cook Report has moved Texas into the Tossup column:

    https://cookpolitical.com/analysis/national/national-politics/bidens-path-270-widens-trumps-path-narrows-texas-moves-toss

    (The whole article is well worth a read).

    The gap between the forecasting sites/pundits and the betting markets is becoming a chasm.

    How much better, if at all, will the polling be this time round ?
    ...In an analysis of polling errors in 2016 and 2018, my colleague David Wasserman wrote this week that polls in the Southwest "undershot Democrats' final margin in 17 of 19 cases, including by an average of 1.4 points in 2016 and 4.2 points in 2018."...
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    And the liberal left love to complain about how low brow the Mail and the Sun are....

    Front page of the BBC News site...Lily Allen talks about wanking.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-54712504

    I enjoyed the article, thanks for sharing 🤣🤣
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.

    If Biden wins a landslide yes, if Trump narrowly wins the EC again but Biden wins the popular vote will you do the same?

    What about if Biden wins a narrow EC victory?

    If Biden wins I for one will be delighted to admit I was wrong to forecast a Trump win.
    I was forecasting a narrow Biden EC win last month, I have now shifted to a narrow Trump EC win (with Biden still winning the popular vote), I have never forecast a Biden landslide so will apologise if I get that wrong not for the former
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2020

    IanB2 said:

    The whole of Nottinghamshire is expected to enter England’s strictest coronavirus restrictions by the end of the week.

    It is understood that pubs, bars and other venues will be forced to close across the east Midlands county from Friday.

    Remembering some talk about why Nottingham was one of the areas to enter Tier 3 despite their overall infection rate decreasing:



    More and more areas are going to be like that. The inevitable leakage across the age ranges has been occurring. Hospitalisations are likely to increase even if overall infection rates start to fall, because that will conceal a multitude. We need the infection rates in these demographics to start coming down.
    It is why waiting for the virus to come to you and then hope you can close it down is totally the wrong approach. By the time people start appearing at testing centres in big numbers, you already have a problem and the transition leak will have already be well under way.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.

    If Biden wins a landslide yes, if Trump narrowly wins the EC again but Biden wins the popular vote will you do the same?

    What about if Biden wins a narrow EC victory?

    If Biden wins I for one will be delighted to admit I was wrong to forecast a Trump win.
    I was forecasting a narrow Biden EC win last month, I have now shifted to a narrow Trump EC win (with Biden still winning the popular vote), I have never forecast a Biden landslide so will apologise if I get that wrong not for the former
    Lol. You haven’t just been “forecasting a narrow Trump EC win”, you’ve been arrogantly carrying on that you know better than everyone else.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629

    And the liberal left love to complain about how low brow the Mail and the Sun are....

    Front page of the BBC News site...Lily Allen talks about wanking.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-54712504

    Well in Tier 2 and 3 households, it is compulsory for the unpartnered...
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited October 2020

    FPT

    OllyT said:

    MrEd said:

    Mal557 said:

    For me , although there are lots of permutations, who wins the election will come down to two states, FL and PA. If Biden wins FL he's going to win, end of. If he loses, though there may be some ups and downs , I think it will come down to PA.
    I still think the national polls are reflecting more that Biden is doing better in places like TX and GA but I don't expect him to win either or NC. AZ I think he will. I am pretty confident he will win MI and WI but I have real doubts about PA, yes he's about 5% up but the mood music there seems so volatile.
    So I think if it comes down to PA (which I think it will as i suspect Trump will win FL just), we may have to wait a while to know who's won and can expect some shenanigans over postal votes. So much against my personal wishes I really can see Trump falling over the line, despite losing the popular vote by more than 2016 and only just getting past 270 this time.
    Now I need a stiff drink

    This is my exact fear – and my forecast – although I think in that scenario, it ends up 269-269?
    The one prediction I want to make is that I think Biden wins Georgia in almost all circumstances.
    Well if that happens he is in the White House.

    What makes you so confident?

    (P.S. I share others' scepticism about a PA Biden win)

    I think the failed (but slim) Stacey Abrams election attempt will drive further turnout in favour of the Dems.

    Look at Fulton County - Atlanta - 344,876 votes so far. That’s 80% of the 2016 turnout already.
    There is a plausible scenario whereby Biden underperforms in the rustbelt but arrives in the White House via the sunbelt.
    I see Ladbrokes now have Trump favourite to win FL at 8/11
    And as Florida goes, so goes the presidency, generally. But stop bothering people with facts.
    That is simply not true, but then facts never really seem to impinge much on your world view. Biden could easily win whilst losing Florida
    Sorry but this is balls, Florida has picked the winner since 1996. After Ohio it is the state that best represents the diversity, both economically and demographically, of the whole US. If your message has failed in Florida, it's really quite unlikely it will work in the other states you need to flip.

    Ohio is going to be safe R, and Florida may not be far behind.
    Missouri had a run of "picking the winner" in 12 elections to 2004, and only had one miss in a century. California picked 19 out of 21 up to 1996. Things change - one got redder, the other bluer, and neither is even remotely a bellwether these days.

    Colorado was a pretty strong Republican state, and voted for Bob Dole in his heavy defeat in 1996... it subsequently shifted to became the tipping point state in 2008 AND 2012, and has moved far enough that it's unlikely to be competitive this year or for a while.

    A run since 1996 in a state which continues to be fairly finely balanced isn't at all surprising, particularly when three of those elections (1996, 2008 and 2012) weren't all that close. Florida is still competitive, but has tended to move a little towards the GOP this century in various levels of election. Ditto Ohio. Other states have got bluer, and some that weren't all that competitive now are.
    You are missing the point. The reason Ohio and Florida are considered the important bellwethers is because they are as close as you can get to economically and demographically representative of the US, that's why they have a far better track record of predicting elections than all the others.

    None of the states you mention are particularly representative of the nation. They may have streaks of picking the winner, but that really is more down to local factors, or specific trends in national politics.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD will you have the courage and good grace to come on here Nov 4th, as I did after the 2019 General Election, and admit that you got this hopelessly and utterly wrong?

    Rhetorical so thanks in advance.

    If Biden wins a landslide yes, if Trump narrowly wins the EC again but Biden wins the popular vote will you do the same?

    What about if Biden wins a narrow EC victory?

    If Biden wins I for one will be delighted to admit I was wrong to forecast a Trump win.
    I was forecasting a narrow Biden EC win last month, I have now shifted to a narrow Trump EC win (with Biden still winning the popular vote), I have never forecast a Biden landslide so will apologise if I get that wrong not for the former
    That sounds almost... Nate Silver-ish. :smile:
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    Off topic, but thanks everyone for the banking tips! Have now successfully set up an account with Revolut
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    Alistair said:

    The insane 17 point Wisconsin poll

    1,451,462 have already voted
    37% in the poll say they have voted

    That means the Likely Voter screen says a total turnout of 4 million people

    Wisconsin only has 3,583,804 voters total.

    DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER.

    So Northern Ireland not the only place where the dead may vote?
    "This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by landline and
    cellular telephone interviews Oct. 20-25, 2020"

    when the early voting was, er, much lower.
This discussion has been closed.