politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The challenge for UKIP now is to succeed under First Past t
Comments
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I started off last season by backing Man Utd for the title, and then backing them again and again at bigger prices.nigel4england said:
7.87% to be exact!Pulpstar said:
You must have been sweating a bit on your Greens sub 8% bet for a bit ! Though it was the right side of the line in the end.nigel4england said:
Pretty sure I was Cardiff....Scrapheap_as_was said:
The problem here is many of us will have done something v close to those numbers but have a nagging false recollection problem.... I hope there will be a league table or top 10 so we can see how close glory was and of course who was Cardiff...TheScreamingEagles said:
I have the spreadsheet, and will be doing a thread on it either this evening, or in the morning.MikeSmithson said:We've now computed the winner of our EP14 prediction competition
It was won by someone whose entry was:-
UKIP 27.8
Labour 25.8
Conservative 24.1
Green 8.3
Lib Dem 7.6
AIFE 1.7
I'm sending TSE the data
The winner is ::drumroll:: [redacted until the thread]
I've done well over the years with football betting but last season was rubbish, I am mostly backing horses at the moment"
Learning all I can about political betting from you guys and really enjoying it.
At one point I had a very mild red on everyone except Liverpool who I had a ~ £60 red on. This was about 10 games out.
Ended up with a ~ £25 loss or so. Wasn't bad considered how awfully I traded the positions.0 -
It was a great football season for me.Pulpstar said:
I started off last season by backing Man Utd for the title, and then backing them again and again at bigger prices.nigel4england said:
7.87% to be exact!Pulpstar said:
You must have been sweating a bit on your Greens sub 8% bet for a bit ! Though it was the right side of the line in the end.nigel4england said:
Pretty sure I was Cardiff....Scrapheap_as_was said:
The problem here is many of us will have done something v close to those numbers but have a nagging false recollection problem.... I hope there will be a league table or top 10 so we can see how close glory was and of course who was Cardiff...TheScreamingEagles said:
I have the spreadsheet, and will be doing a thread on it either this evening, or in the morning.MikeSmithson said:We've now computed the winner of our EP14 prediction competition
It was won by someone whose entry was:-
UKIP 27.8
Labour 25.8
Conservative 24.1
Green 8.3
Lib Dem 7.6
AIFE 1.7
I'm sending TSE the data
The winner is ::drumroll:: [redacted until the thread]
I've done well over the years with football betting but last season was rubbish, I am mostly backing horses at the moment"
Learning all I can about political betting from you guys and really enjoying it.
At one point I had a very mild red on everyone except Liverpool who I had a ~ £60 red on. This was about 10 games out.
Ended up with a ~ £25 loss or so. Wasn't bad considered how awfully I traded the positions.
Some of those Man City goals bets, and Martin Skrtel being first goalscorer bets at 40/1 a time.
Plus Wigan beating City and Fabio Borinoi FGS in the Rumbelows Cup Final at 16/1 were a splendid bet.0 -
.... and mine ?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're somewhere in the top 10.Pulpstar said:
Where did my entry end up then ?TheScreamingEagles said:
235 completed entries.Pulpstar said:
189th out of ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Spreadsheet link added and working via dropbox.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm, a spreadsheet will be fine thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:Christ, I meant to type "screen shot" and typed "money shot" instead
I can tell you that you finished 37 places ahead of me.
But then again I finished 189th.
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If she's on the receiving end of racist abuse, that's abhorrent.AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
However, her support for a United Ireland would be bound to make her unpopular among Unionists.
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Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse0 -
145peter_from_putney said:
.... and mine ?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're somewhere in the top 10.Pulpstar said:
Where did my entry end up then ?TheScreamingEagles said:
235 completed entries.Pulpstar said:
189th out of ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Spreadsheet link added and working via dropbox.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm, a spreadsheet will be fine thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:Christ, I meant to type "screen shot" and typed "money shot" instead
I can tell you that you finished 37 places ahead of me.
But then again I finished 189th.0 -
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
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Dread to think where I was but would appreciate it if you put me out of misery....peter_from_putney said:
.... and mine ?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're somewhere in the top 10.Pulpstar said:
Where did my entry end up then ?TheScreamingEagles said:
235 completed entries.Pulpstar said:
189th out of ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Spreadsheet link added and working via dropbox.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm, a spreadsheet will be fine thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:Christ, I meant to type "screen shot" and typed "money shot" instead
I can tell you that you finished 37 places ahead of me.
But then again I finished 189th.0 -
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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Can't see your entry, the thread will have a link to the spreadsheet so you can check for yourself.nigel4england said:
Dread to think where I was but would appreciate it if you put me out of misery....peter_from_putney said:
.... and mine ?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're somewhere in the top 10.Pulpstar said:
Where did my entry end up then ?TheScreamingEagles said:
235 completed entries.Pulpstar said:
189th out of ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Spreadsheet link added and working via dropbox.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm, a spreadsheet will be fine thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:Christ, I meant to type "screen shot" and typed "money shot" instead
I can tell you that you finished 37 places ahead of me.
But then again I finished 189th.
Everyone else, I won't be able to provide your position, as I'm off for a few hours.0 -
My best footy bet (which iirc I suggested to PBers) was Suarez to be the Premier League's top goal scorer, where he duly obliged at odds of 18/1 - lovely jubbly!
Another cracker for me last season was buying Burnley after a promising start last October as a spreadbet at a relatively modest 73 points, and they finished with 93 points. OGH would be proud of me.0 -
So why is it any more of an infringement of burkha-wearing women's rights to ban the burkha than it is an infringement of the naked rambler's rights to ban public nudity?Smarmeron said:@TwistedFireStopper
While there are many good points to be made. "Banning the burka" is an infringement on the liberty of any woman who chooses to wear it of her own free will.
While it sounds sensible to us, it sets a precedent that we would find abhorrent were it to be applied to other things.
(we actually have laws to cover modesty ourselves, ask the "naked rambler")0 -
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-29/over-thousand-soldiers-killed-ukraine-fighting-escalates-russian-media-reports
blimey if true, where's yokel when you need him
edit: seems a bit fishy now i think about it0 -
That's to fundamentally misunderstand Ulster politics. Everybody's against everything. It helps keep things simpler.Neil said:
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse0 -
Ah, but some people are in favour of flegs!Alanbrooke said:
That's to fundamentally misunderstand Ulster politics. Everybody's against everything. It helps keep things simpler.Neil said:
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
Which may be part of Anna's problem.0 -
They're not actually in favour of flegs, it's more the flegs help them annoy everyone else.Neil said:
Ah, but some people are in favour of flegs!Alanbrooke said:
That's to fundamentally misunderstand Ulster politics. Everybody's against everything. It helps keep things simpler.Neil said:
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
Which may be part of Anna's problem.0 -
They didnt know what they'd got until it was gone.Alanbrooke said:
They're not actually in favour of flegs, it's more the flegs help them annoy everyone else.Neil said:
Ah, but some people are in favour of flegs!Alanbrooke said:
That's to fundamentally misunderstand Ulster politics. Everybody's against everything. It helps keep things simpler.Neil said:
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
Which may be part of Anna's problem.0 -
@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.0 -
It's Ireland at it's best. We don't know what we want but we won't be happy until we get it.Neil said:
They didnt know what they'd got until it was gone.Alanbrooke said:
They're not actually in favour of flegs, it's more the flegs help them annoy everyone else.Neil said:
Ah, but some people are in favour of flegs!Alanbrooke said:
That's to fundamentally misunderstand Ulster politics. Everybody's against everything. It helps keep things simpler.Neil said:
Like the BBC they can be reassured by the fact that both sides think they're against them.TGOHF said:
Another wonderful example of how the Alliance are perfectly equidistant between the two sides of the peace process..AndreaParma_82 said:Northern Ireland Assembly Member Anna Lo (Alliance) won't stand again in 2016. She's contemplating of leaving Northern Ireland because unionists are all racist there. Or something like that. England is better.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/29/northern-ireland-chinese-mp-might-leave-province-racist-abuse
Which may be part of Anna's problem.0 -
"The loss by imperialism of its dominating role in world affairs and the utmost expansion of the sphere in which the laws of socialist foreign policy operate are a distinctive feature of the present stage of social development. The main direction of this development is toward even greater changes in the correlation of forces in the world arena in favour of socialism."anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
Either that or:
"Send the Macedonians back to Bulgaria".
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Sell Liverpool points next season, they have to cope with European football and it won't be easy for them, particularly Gerrard. Plus Chelsea showed how to nullify them, other teams will copy what Chelsea did. They also have the hangover of chucking it away, and from what I have seen they will sell Agger and don't seem to be in the market for centre backs.peter_from_putney said:My best footy bet (which iirc I suggested to PBers) was Suarez to be the Premier League's top goal scorer, where he duly obliged at odds of 18/1 - lovely jubbly!
Another cracker for me last season was buying Burnley after a promising start last October as a spreadbet at a relatively modest 73 points, and they finished with 93 points. OGH would be proud of me.
Conversely buy Man Utd points, no European football is a massive bonus to their title hopes. LVG will do a good job though Rooney won't like him.
Another good bet will be Utd to finish above Liverpool.0 -
AveryLP = Vince Cable.AveryLP said:
The loss by imperialism of its dominating role in world affairs and the utmost expansion of the sphere in which the laws of socialist foreign policy operate are a distinctive feature of the present stage of social development. The main direction of this development is toward even greater changes in the correlation of forces in the world arena in favour of socialism."anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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I dont think Vince is that much of an Osborne fan!Alanbrooke said:
AveryLP = Vince Cable.AveryLP said:
The loss by imperialism of its dominating role in world affairs and the utmost expansion of the sphere in which the laws of socialist foreign policy operate are a distinctive feature of the present stage of social development. The main direction of this development is toward even greater changes in the correlation of forces in the world arena in favour of socialism."anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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I am doing "valuable work", Mr. Brooke.Alanbrooke said:
AveryLP = Vince Cable.AveryLP said:
The loss by imperialism of its dominating role in world affairs and the utmost expansion of the sphere in which the laws of socialist foreign policy operate are a distinctive feature of the present stage of social development. The main direction of this development is toward even greater changes in the correlation of forces in the world arena in favour of socialism."anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
I agree a ban is wrong. However, should people have the right not to serve or deal with people in burkhas, for reasons of identification or safety?
for example bank tellers? shop assistants? benefits clerks?
I don;t think its unreasonable to have a system whereby we discourage the use of burkhas without banning them from use.
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Given that burkhas have been used to commit terrorist attacks, armed robberies and escape police surveillance, I think there's certainly a case to be made that you can't entirely mask your face.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.
Imagine if we'd never had Muslims on these shores, but a trend emerged for groups of young white kids to wear hockey masks out in public the whole time, and these hockey masks were used by people to commit crimes. We'd ban them in an instant.0 -
In the London local elections UKIP topped the poll in 2 wards, both in Havering: Gooshays and Heaton. (Not the same thing as number of councillors won in London because most wards are three-seaters).0
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It was merely a gratuitous insult Mr P, we're practicing for Osborne's visits in GE 2015.AveryLP said:
I am doing "valuable work", Mr. Brooke.Alanbrooke said:
AveryLP = Vince Cable.AveryLP said:
The loss by imperialism of its dominating role in world affairs and the utmost expansion of the sphere in which the laws of socialist foreign policy operate are a distinctive feature of the present stage of social development. The main direction of this development is toward even greater changes in the correlation of forces in the world arena in favour of socialism."anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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We'd ban them in an instant.
As outlined below, I think there are ways to discourage the use of the Burkha ( ie I'm sorry I'm not going to deal with you unless you remove your veil), without banning it.
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'According to RIA, quoting Slaviansk people's mayor Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, about 1,200 Ukrainian army soldiers have been killed during a special operation in Slaviansk'MrJones said:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-29/over-thousand-soldiers-killed-ukraine-fighting-escalates-russian-media-reports
blimey if true, where's yokel when you need him
edit: seems a bit fishy now i think about it
That's very fishy.
For 1200 dead, you could guess at another few thousand wounded. Doesn't sound like a 'special operation'.
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Fixed that.TheWatcher said:
'he has been an active and impressive anti-business secretary.'ToryJim said:The egregious Peter Oborne goes into bat for Cable and declares him as pure as the driven snow. God Oborne is a prize pillock.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100273867/vince-cable-is-more-plotted-against-than-plotting/
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"My enemy's enemy is my friend. When do I get my expenses?"anotherDave said:
What did Mr Farage say?volcanopete said:Farage has made considerable play of his support for the Greek Communist Party.
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@Socrates
The problem is that under our judicial system, you would have to define what a burka is or isn't (balaclavas and scarfs for example).
What you could do is allow premises to refuse entrance to someone wearing such an item, and if memory serves me right, the police can request you remove such items, or be compelled to do so at a police station already.
An actual "ban" runs into way to many problems, and would let any halfway competent lawyer drive a coach and horses through it in court0 -
Would my gimp mask be OK? Not that I wear it much outside the basement.Socrates said:
Given that burkhas have been used to commit terrorist attacks, armed robberies and escape police surveillance, I think there's certainly a case to be made that you can't entirely mask your face.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.
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Not that I wear it much outside the basement.
Imagine Halloween!!!....the police would be nicking thousands....0 -
Nice point.Socrates said:Imagine if we'd never had Muslims on these shores, but a trend emerged for groups of young white kids to wear hockey masks out in public the whole time, and these hockey masks were used by people to commit crimes. We'd ban them in an instant.
To me a reason for banning the burka is that it's only women who wear it (in most cases without having any choice in matter), and in backward/conservative societies where they are treated appallingly.
If this different standard of modesty applied to both sexes I'd be less likely to oppose it, but as it stands it's a big flashing neon sign saying women have no worth compared to men, and it's totally ok to subjugate them. To compare it to western decency laws is laughable.
It's also pathetic to oppose it on the grounds of being 'difficult' to write a decent law.0 -
The Russkies lost some large number like that when a column was ambushed going into Grozny - Teutoberger forest stylee - but if it was something like that there'd be a giant column of smoke so yeah, smells wrong.TheWatcher said:
'According to RIA, quoting Slaviansk people's mayor Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, about 1,200 Ukrainian army soldiers have been killed during a special operation in Slaviansk'MrJones said:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-29/over-thousand-soldiers-killed-ukraine-fighting-escalates-russian-media-reports
blimey if true, where's yokel when you need him
edit: seems a bit fishy now i think about it
That's very fishy.
For 1200 dead, you could guess at another few thousand wounded. Doesn't sound like a 'special operation'.
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Guessing that a number of NATO's surveillance assets must be flying lazy racetrack loops over Eastern Europe, something would have leaked out to confirm an assault on that scale.MrJones said:
The Russkies lost some large number like that when a column was ambushed going into Grozny - Teutoberger forest stylee - but if it was something like that there'd be a giant column of smoke so yeah, smells wrong.TheWatcher said:
'According to RIA, quoting Slaviansk people's mayor Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, about 1,200 Ukrainian army soldiers have been killed during a special operation in Slaviansk'MrJones said:http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-29/over-thousand-soldiers-killed-ukraine-fighting-escalates-russian-media-reports
blimey if true, where's yokel when you need him
edit: seems a bit fishy now i think about it
That's very fishy.
For 1200 dead, you could guess at another few thousand wounded. Doesn't sound like a 'special operation'.
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@Anorak
I pointed out (again downthread) that we also have different dress codes for males and females. Men topless ok, women topless, breach of public order.
How you word a law with respect to all it's contingencies, is the difficulty.
Banning it as religious symbolism will land you in a world of pain.
You then come back to defining a burka as a face covering......?0 -
The Sun are tweeting they have a Newark poll out at 10pm.0
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Metropolitan councils, number of wards where UKIP topped the poll:
Dudley: 6
Sandwell: 1
Solihull: 1
Walsall: 3
Wolverhampton: 1
Bolton: 2
Oldham: 2
Doncaster: 1
Rotherham: 10
Sheffield: 3
Bradford: 1
Wakefield: 20 -
I absolutely despise the Burka, which is clearly oppressive. That said I also hate a lot of religious uniforms that make people look like slaves to weird superstitions rather than free thinking humans.
However, I don't see how it could be banned without triggering a whole bunch of odd inconsistencies.
Interesting debate.0 -
Bad news for Cameron - almost whatever it says it can only encourage tactical voting - unless Lab and UKIP are very close.TGOHF said:The Sun are tweeting they have a Newark poll out at 10pm.
The best chance for Con to win Newark is to have no polls and to keep the campaign as low key as possible.
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It'll be fascinating to see how Labour are doing in the Newark poll.0
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One thing that strikes me is how little publicity UKIP has had post the Euro results on Sunday.
OK, they led the news bulletins on Monday but even then they were unlucky with it being a Bank Holiday meaning shorter TV news bulletins and many people would have been away.
By Tuesday they were pretty much completely out of the news - partly due to the Lib Dem turmoil.0 -
Banning any kind of clothing is frankly ridiculous. Like you I don't particularly like the Burka but banning it is a stupid idea.BobaFett said:I absolutely despise the Burka, which is clearly oppressive. That said I also hate a lot of religious uniforms that make people look like slaves to weird superstitions rather than free thinking humans.
However, I don't see how it could be banned without triggering a whole bunch of odd inconsistencies.
Interesting debate.0 -
Twitter sphere reporting Rennard has apologised to four of the woman who made allegations against him.
Looks like the ground is being prepared for him to come back into the fold.
Clegg must be desperate..0 -
Presumably the French have found some way of enforcing their ban? AIUI it's illegal to wear in France.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
The problem is that under our judicial system, you would have to define what a burka is or isn't (balaclavas and scarfs for example).
What you could do is allow premises to refuse entrance to someone wearing such an item, and if memory serves me right, the police can request you remove such items, or be compelled to do so at a police station already.
An actual "ban" runs into way to many problems, and would let any halfway competent lawyer drive a coach and horses through it in court0 -
Re Chilcot: It seems odd to have an inquiry into something and then say some of the evidence can't be seen. And the people involved get to choose.
If I'm ever in court, can I swear to "tell half the truth, the whole half truth and nothing but the half-truth."
A great wheeze by Labour to set the hare running and then call it off. Or was it Gordon doing the dirty on Tony? Mrs Rochester loose with the matches?0 -
In the winter when it is cold I wear a full face balaclava leaving only my eyes and mouth exposed. I wear it walking down the street and if I am out in the countryside. I would not think of wearing it to enter a shop as that would be extremely rude. But since I have never been stopped, questioned or challenged by anyone including police officers for wearing it I assume that the circumstances in which I wear it (basically snow storms or driving rain) are not considered to be either illegal or hostile.Socrates said:
Given that burkhas have been used to commit terrorist attacks, armed robberies and escape police surveillance, I think there's certainly a case to be made that you can't entirely mask your face.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.
Imagine if we'd never had Muslims on these shores, but a trend emerged for groups of young white kids to wear hockey masks out in public the whole time, and these hockey masks were used by people to commit crimes. We'd ban them in an instant.0 -
Yes but continental legal systems work differently to ours, they tend to presume you aren't allowed to do something unless the law says you can. Here we have it the other way round in that until someone stops you, and they need a really good reason, you can do as you please.BobaFett said:
Presumably the French have found some way of enforcing their ban? AIUI it's illegal to wear in France.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
The problem is that under our judicial system, you would have to define what a burka is or isn't (balaclavas and scarfs for example).
What you could do is allow premises to refuse entrance to someone wearing such an item, and if memory serves me right, the police can request you remove such items, or be compelled to do so at a police station already.
An actual "ban" runs into way to many problems, and would let any halfway competent lawyer drive a coach and horses through it in court0 -
Because the Naked Rambler is literally shoving his genitals down my throat whereas the woman wearing a burqa is minding her own business.Socrates said:
So why is it any more of an infringement of burkha-wearing women's rights to ban the burkha than it is an infringement of the naked rambler's rights to ban public nudity?Smarmeron said:@TwistedFireStopper
While there are many good points to be made. "Banning the burka" is an infringement on the liberty of any woman who chooses to wear it of her own free will.
While it sounds sensible to us, it sets a precedent that we would find abhorrent were it to be applied to other things.
(we actually have laws to cover modesty ourselves, ask the "naked rambler")
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UKIP/Lab tactical switching...MikeL said:
Bad news for Cameron - almost whatever it says it can only encourage tactical voting - unless Lab and UKIP are very close.TGOHF said:The Sun are tweeting they have a Newark poll out at 10pm.
The best chance for Con to win Newark is to have no polls and to keep the campaign as low key as possible.
Not so sure of that - they are very different parties.
Some crossover sure but it won't be like LD/Lab transferability.,0 -
"Presumably the French have found some way of enforcing their ban? AIUI it's illegal to wear in France" - perhaps, but I would be interested to see if the law has been enforced...ToryJim said:
Yes but continental legal systems work differently to ours, they tend to presume you aren't allowed to do something unless the law says you can. Here we have it the other way round in that until someone stops you, and they need a really good reason, you can do as you please.BobaFett said:
Presumably the French have found some way of enforcing their ban? AIUI it's illegal to wear in France.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
The problem is that under our judicial system, you would have to define what a burka is or isn't (balaclavas and scarfs for example).
What you could do is allow premises to refuse entrance to someone wearing such an item, and if memory serves me right, the police can request you remove such items, or be compelled to do so at a police station already.
An actual "ban" runs into way to many problems, and would let any halfway competent lawyer drive a coach and horses through it in court0 -
Define free. I very much doubt many women would choose to view the world through a three-inch slot unless it was drummed into them from a very early age that a psychopathic supreme being would do nasty things to them unless they did.Smarmeron said:@BobaFett
Once again, is it oppressive if the woman chooses to wear it freely?
If she is a minor, do you wish to take away the parental right to make a child dress "suitably"?
Present laws could be amended to address some of the complaints....but even then it would not be easy0 -
Literally?JohnLoony said:
Because the Naked Rambler is literally shoving his genitals down my throat whereas the woman wearing a burqa is minding her own business.Socrates said:
So why is it any more of an infringement of burkha-wearing women's rights to ban the burkha than it is an infringement of the naked rambler's rights to ban public nudity?Smarmeron said:@TwistedFireStopper
While there are many good points to be made. "Banning the burka" is an infringement on the liberty of any woman who chooses to wear it of her own free will.
While it sounds sensible to us, it sets a precedent that we would find abhorrent were it to be applied to other things.
(we actually have laws to cover modesty ourselves, ask the "naked rambler")
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That's not my impression of France ! They seem to abhor rules, generally, in my experienceToryJim said:
Yes but continental legal systems work differently to ours, they tend to presume you aren't allowed to do something unless the law says you can. Here we have it the other way round in that until someone stops you, and they need a really good reason, you can do as you please.BobaFett said:
Presumably the French have found some way of enforcing their ban? AIUI it's illegal to wear in France.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
The problem is that under our judicial system, you would have to define what a burka is or isn't (balaclavas and scarfs for example).
What you could do is allow premises to refuse entrance to someone wearing such an item, and if memory serves me right, the police can request you remove such items, or be compelled to do so at a police station already.
An actual "ban" runs into way to many problems, and would let any halfway competent lawyer drive a coach and horses through it in court0 -
Smarmeron,
"Some of us would quite like to see (for example) M. Thatcher's private conversations with R. Reagan."
We could probably guess at most of them. But there was no inquiry set up to look into them.
My question is ... why set up the Chilcot Inquiry then? It's lasted years and cost a fortune. Can we have our money back, please?0 -
That all Richard the fag shop local to my office has a sign: no face coverings except for religious purposes.Richard_Tyndall said:
In the winter when it is cold I wear a full face balaclava leaving only my eyes and mouth exposed. I wear it walking down the street and if I am out in the countryside. I would not think of wearing it to enter a shop as that would be extremely rude. But since I have never been stopped, questioned or challenged by anyone including police officers for wearing it I assume that the circumstances in which I wear it (basically snow storms or driving rain) are not considered to be either illegal or hostile.Socrates said:
Given that burkhas have been used to commit terrorist attacks, armed robberies and escape police surveillance, I think there's certainly a case to be made that you can't entirely mask your face.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.
Imagine if we'd never had Muslims on these shores, but a trend emerged for groups of young white kids to wear hockey masks out in public the whole time, and these hockey masks were used by people to commit crimes. We'd ban them in an instant.
To my mind that exception is bonkers - why should people's superstitions excuse them from following sensible rules?0 -
So now the Romanians have launched an anti-UKIP campaign to try to get Brits to visit the country.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/478751/EXCLUSIVE-Romania-launches-ad-campaign-against-Ukip-after-European-election-success?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+daily-express-world-news+(Daily+Express+::+World+Feed)0 -
The Bhurka - Treat it not merely as part a continuum of clothing of which we disapprove - "I dislike your canary-yellow golf trousers, but you are free to wear them" - But as a different category - Clothing which conceals the wearer's identity.
You can't conceal your identity while using a public service or public transport. Public anything really. Job done. You can wear it if you want to, but you'll need to stay indoors, unfortunately. It's entirely up to you.0 -
And that - the context - is surely the nub of the issue. Generally, I do tend towards a libertarian stance but face covering in public is one area where I'd make an exception. Societal cohesion is, in this case, more important than individual rights.Richard_Tyndall said:
In the winter when it is cold I wear a full face balaclava leaving only my eyes and mouth exposed. I wear it walking down the street and if I am out in the countryside. I would not think of wearing it to enter a shop as that would be extremely rude. But since I have never been stopped, questioned or challenged by anyone including police officers for wearing it I assume that the circumstances in which I wear it (basically snow storms or driving rain) are not considered to be either illegal or hostile.Socrates said:
Given that burkhas have been used to commit terrorist attacks, armed robberies and escape police surveillance, I think there's certainly a case to be made that you can't entirely mask your face.Smarmeron said:@Socrates
I already explained down thread that the point I was making there, was that we also have laws and customs that are the same in lesser degree to the "burka" (modesty laws)
What a "burka ban" would be in terms of actual law would be the amount and type of flesh you "must" expose.
There are several lawyers on the site that will be able to explain how hard it would be, and what precedents would be set by such a law.
Imagine if we'd never had Muslims on these shores, but a trend emerged for groups of young white kids to wear hockey masks out in public the whole time, and these hockey masks were used by people to commit crimes. We'd ban them in an instant.
Unless someone needs to cover their face for health and safety reasons (e.g. motorbike helmets), or is justified in doing so by the conditions at the time, it shouldn't be permitted.0 -
Probably badly. So do it at the start of a parliament and five years later no-one will remember that we once taught kids that a bloke with a beard could feed 5,000 people with a handful of trout and a few slices of Sunblest.Smarmeron said:@BobaFett
While I agree with you in principle, how would a ban on teaching any form of religion sit with the general public?0 -
And how did that Lab-LD tactical voting work out?Pulpstar said:
UKIP/Lab tactical switching...MikeL said:
Bad news for Cameron - almost whatever it says it can only encourage tactical voting - unless Lab and UKIP are very close.TGOHF said:The Sun are tweeting they have a Newark poll out at 10pm.
The best chance for Con to win Newark is to have no polls and to keep the campaign as low key as possible.
Not so sure of that - they are very different parties.
Some crossover sure but it won't be like LD/Lab transferability.,
Encouraging your supporters to back another party is an excellent way of hollowing out your base while building up someone else's.0 -
Eh? Don't be ridiculous - I expected to be top 5 at least. I demand a recount!TheScreamingEagles said:
145peter_from_putney said:
.... and mine ?TheScreamingEagles said:
You're somewhere in the top 10.Pulpstar said:
Where did my entry end up then ?TheScreamingEagles said:
235 completed entries.Pulpstar said:
189th out of ?TheScreamingEagles said:
Spreadsheet link added and working via dropbox.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Erm, a spreadsheet will be fine thank you.TheScreamingEagles said:Christ, I meant to type "screen shot" and typed "money shot" instead
I can tell you that you finished 37 places ahead of me.
But then again I finished 189th.
0 -
Banning veiled women dressed head to toe accordingly might have interesting consequences in quite a number of churches as the first notes of the wedding march are struck up ?!?
PC Plod rushing down the aisle to arrest the bride should make for noteworthy telly.0 -
@david_herdson
Is painting your face for a football match covering your face? It definitely throws off facial recognition cameras.
Take it one step further, should women be banned from wearing makeup, as they use it to camouflage their facial flaws and bone structure? Or beards on men (or women)?
Back to the definition of facial covering.....
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You're not going to publish the spreadsheet are you? I filled it in early in the day. Before breakfast - I think my total prediction for each parties vote summed to around 130%.TheScreamingEagles said:
You will see the top 19 via a screen shotScrapheap_as_was said:
The problem here is many of us will have done something v close to those numbers but have a nagging false recollection problem.... I hope there will be a league table or top 10 so we can see how close glory was and of course who was Cardiff...TheScreamingEagles said:
I have the spreadsheet, and will be doing a thread on it either this evening, or in the morning.MikeSmithson said:We've now computed the winner of our EP14 prediction competition
It was won by someone whose entry was:-
UKIP 27.8
Labour 25.8
Conservative 24.1
Green 8.3
Lib Dem 7.6
AIFE 1.7
I'm sending TSE the data
The winner is ::drumroll:: [redacted until the thread]
I'll try and link via google docs.
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Were you estimating Tower Hamlets ?Fat_Steve said:
You're not going to publish the spreadsheet are you? I filled it in early in the day. Before breakfast - I think my total prediction for each parties vote summed to around 130%.TheScreamingEagles said:
You will see the top 19 via a screen shotScrapheap_as_was said:
The problem here is many of us will have done something v close to those numbers but have a nagging false recollection problem.... I hope there will be a league table or top 10 so we can see how close glory was and of course who was Cardiff...TheScreamingEagles said:
I have the spreadsheet, and will be doing a thread on it either this evening, or in the morning.MikeSmithson said:We've now computed the winner of our EP14 prediction competition
It was won by someone whose entry was:-
UKIP 27.8
Labour 25.8
Conservative 24.1
Green 8.3
Lib Dem 7.6
AIFE 1.7
I'm sending TSE the data
The winner is ::drumroll:: [redacted until the thread]
I'll try and link via google docs.0 -
Some men might be thankful if their trouble and strife had been arrested on the wedding day.JackW said:Banning veiled women dressed head to toe accordingly might have interesting consequences in quite a number of churches as the first notes of the wedding march are struck up ?!?
PC Plod rushing down the aisle to arrest the bride should make for noteworthy telly.0 -
It is emerging that the Burkha is quite a cleverly designed garment.
It is recognisable, distinct and can have a dramatic impact - and yet is difficult to ban without inconvenience and grey areas.0 -
There are circumstances in which it would be legitimate to ban the Burkha; when giving evidence in court, or when your job requires you to interact with members of the public, for example. But a general ban would be an unreasonable infringement of religious freedom.
Also, it was hugely entertaining to witness the reaction among Burkha-clad women in Wardown Park when my pet dog ran over to one of them and stuck his snout up her skirt.0 -
Part of me wonders if the sheer amount spent is regarded in itself as proof of its worth. The 'We spent x millions on this thing, that shows how seriously it was taken' argument.CD13 said:Smarmeron,
"Some of us would quite like to see (for example) M. Thatcher's private conversations with R. Reagan."
We could probably guess at most of them. But there was no inquiry set up to look into them.
My question is ... why set up the Chilcot Inquiry then? It's lasted years and cost a fortune. Can we have our money back, please?0 -
Banning the burqa is preposterous authoritarianism. If a person wants to cover their face, they should be allowed to. It harms no one at all. A law which banned full face coverings would be despotic. There is also the practical point that a law would be impossible to draft, and impossible to enforce. @Socrates attempts to argue by way of analogy for a ban, concluding that '[w]e'd ban them in an instant.' He merely shows that the vulgar mass is viciously authoritarian, not that face coverings should be prohibited.
That said, it would be thoroughly advisable to introduce a new offence of covering one's face with the intent of committing an indictable offence. That would catch those who abuse the burqa for nefarious purposes, as well as the 2011 London rioters. People should be free to disapprove of any barbarous superstition, including religious face coverings. Shops should be free to refuse to serve such a customer. In courts of justice, at border security etc. and in certain other situations, a person should be compelled to remove a face covering.0 -
I'm minded to recall the funeral of George VI and those famous photographs of the three black veiled queens standing stoically together - Queen Elizabeth, Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and Queen Mary.Smarmeron said:@JackW
It might liven up an otherwise dull funeral as well?
Essentially veils should be removed for matters of security or identity or where public interaction is required - education, health and the like.
For the rest the thought of men, for it would essentially be men, determining what women should wear is so risible as to be something that certainly would count as being of the fruitcake and loony variety.
0 -
A BBC poll tracker? I thought that it was official BBC policy not to report polls?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-275855570 -
@Life_ina_market_town
It might also stop underage girls getting into pubs (though probably not)
BTW, thanks for the spelling correction, I had a feeling it was wrong but prior usage had convinced me otherwise0 -
"People sometimes like to think that the SDP was founded on some issue of principle: opposition to nationalisation, or to unilateral nuclear disarmament or some such. In fact, it was created because the Labour Party wanted to make incumbent MPs subject to reselection by party members.
To be sure, there were some honourable Labour moderates, including David Owen himself, who had long agonised about his support for his party. But the mass of his followers were actuated by grubbier considerations: they didn’t want to lose their seats."
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100273875/the-lib-dems-are-finished-a-squalid-end-for-the-heirs-of-the-greatest-party-in-history/
Puts a new perspective on it. :-)
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BBC have had a GE poll tracker for years now. I guess they don't report individual polls on a regular basis to avoid giving one undue prominence.Stuart_Dickson said:A BBC poll tracker? I thought that it was official BBC policy not to report polls?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-275855570 -
They've always had trackers for major electoral events, it is BBC policy not to lead the news on a single poll unless they have led to a major news impact, such as this week's Oakeshott polls.Stuart_Dickson said:A BBC poll tracker? I thought that it was official BBC policy not to report polls?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27585557
For example, the BBC might lead on an Indyref poll if the poll showed Yes ahead, and it led to panic and chaos as Better Together.
Edit: Here's the BBC official guidelines on reporting opinion polls
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/editorialguidelines/page/guidelines-politics-practices-opinion/#reporting-opinion-polls0 -
Is your avatar your veiled wife ??RobD said:
BBC have had a GE poll tracker for years now. I guess they don't report individual polls on a regular basis to avoid giving one undue prominence.Stuart_Dickson said:A BBC poll tracker? I thought that it was official BBC policy not to report polls?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27585557
I think we should be told ??
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Veiled Wife. Not your ordinary superhero!!JackW said:
Is your avatar your veiled wife ??RobD said:
BBC have had a GE poll tracker for years now. I guess they don't report individual polls on a regular basis to avoid giving one undue prominence.Stuart_Dickson said:A BBC poll tracker? I thought that it was official BBC policy not to report polls?
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-27585557
I think we should be told ??
0 -
I have just seen the ED burger pic?? that everyone has been talking about. I assume it is this one?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/29/article-0-1E2CD0A100000578-890_634x400.jpg
My first thought was Mr Bean.............. just hilarious and if he relaxes by reading French economic theory, he's more of a dork than I thought possible.0 -
I think it should be mandatory for some women to be forced to wear the burka.
Particularly those girls from Essex girls that look like they've been gang-banged by innumerable packets of wotsits.
Or anyone who wears leopard print anything.
And yes, I'm aware of the irony of me criticising someone else's fashion sense.0 -
0
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Archbishop Cranmer @His_Grace 6hSquareRoot said:I have just seen the ED burger pic?? that everyone has been talking about. I assume it is this one?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/29/article-0-1E2CD0A100000578-890_634x400.jpg
My first thought was Mr Bean.............. just hilarious and if he relaxes by reading French economic theory, he's more of a dork than I thought possible.
This is probably blasphemous, or at least offensive, but His Grace hasn't laughed so much in ages
pic.twitter.com/SDbmXCE9hM-1 -
For a group of Lib Dem MPs, the war is already over
The stark reality is, as I argue in the column this week, if you are a Lib Dem MP in heavily Labour territory you are going to lose your seat. This is a hard thing for any MP to accept but particularly hard for a Liberal Democrat. The party has always believed that there is no problem that simply working harder, doing more case work and delivering more leaflets can’t solve. But now that the Liberal Democrats are a party of government this simply isn’t true anymore.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/05/for-a-group-of-lib-dem-mps-the-war-is-already-over/0 -
A Jewish friend of mine pointed out that from his point of view it wasn't how he ate it as much as that he ate it jus a few weeks after professing his affinity with his Jewish heritage. Big negative.SquareRoot said:I have just seen the ED burger pic?? that everyone has been talking about. I assume it is this one?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/29/article-0-1E2CD0A100000578-890_634x400.jpg
My first thought was Mr Bean.............. just hilarious and if he relaxes by reading French economic theory, he's more of a dork than I thought possible.0
