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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    alex_ said:

    Charles said:

    God, I hate it when the aristos tell the plebs what to do.

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1293263729665159169

    I’ve paid both rent and a mortgage. Does that make me a pleb in your eyes?


    Pokey one bed apartment in the East Wing? ;)
    If I tell you it was a central London house we bought for the shop staff to use during strikes that’s not going to look good is it...
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    It's Harris. No surprise there then
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Drat. And double drat. I really thought it was going to be Rice.

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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Why do I get the feeling that the song and dance about the Dem VP pick has been a bit like that episode of The Thick of It when they're all running around trying to find a new PM but actually the deal was done ages ago?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,085
    kinabalu said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP slot -- Susan Rice now odds-on on Betfair. Many of the rags laid off the boards.

    Susan Rice: 1.7
    Kamala Harris: 2.92
    Val Demings: 19
    Gretchen Whitmer: 20
    Elizabeth Warren: 26
    Michelle Obama: 30
    Tammy Duckworth: 30
    Hillary Clinton: 65

    Leak, or jumping too soon to conclusions ?

    (FWIW, I’ve covered both options.)
    Rice is bouncing around between odds-on and odds-against the same way Kamala Harris was a few days ago. My guess is people are actively adjusting their positions according to what they think will happen. If it were a leak, if someone thought they knew, they'd just take the lot, and that is not happening.
    That’s my gut feel.

    But like everyone else, I don’t know anything.
    I suppose the rational thing to do might be to look at the other candidates if we assume it is a false market on the front two, but can we assume that? Tbh I am thinking of greening up just so I can stop looking at this market and get some sleep!
    Kamala Harris is now odds-on favourite again. The market is changing faster than I can copy-(reformat)-paste.
    If it helps about a year ago I had a quite intense vision of "President Harris" landing in the UK on airforce one. It was a windy day and her hair was a problem as she descended. And that was it. The vision ended there. No idea what year it was or the purpose of the visit.
    Discussing the rendition of Trump from his Turnberry bolt hole?
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    I feel like this was decided months ago
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    TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Charles said:

    From the article...

    The truth was far more mundane. A few protesters among the many thousands appear to have burned a single Bible — and possibly a second — for kindling to start a bigger fire. None of the other protesters seemed to notice or care.

    So conservatives criticised protestors for burning the Bible because... drum roll... they burned a Bible.

    But it's a "Russian Hit!!!!!!" because, presumably, this is seen as a way of drawing the sting from a legitimate criticism.



    edit: and in what way is "using a Bible as kindling for a bigger fire" any different to "burning a Bible"?
    You are being disingenuous there, Charles. Clearly, using a Bible as kindling because it is to hand is qualitatively different from burning a Bible specifically in order to make a political or religious point. And one or two people burning a Bible for either reason and others not noticing is qualitatively different from deliberate, political Bible-burning being one of the defining themes of the protest.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    An important debate (FWIW I’m in favour of a challenge trial):

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1293263923022503936

    I don’t see how you can ethically* implement a target species challenge trial though given the severity of the disease. I think you’ve got to go down the route of a placebo controlled trial

    * meant in the technical sense rather than a personal comment.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,193

    kinabalu said:

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    No 'othering' after Yousef's law BY law....! - or prison!

    Still, you get to keep your hands. For now.
    Ah, I see the Muslim thing is one of your many triggers.
    Anything rather defend a gagging blasphemy law eh?
    Do you still defend coked up racists using the word P*kis?
    Absolutely not but I do defend people who might like to criticise and satirize islam and its prophet should they so wish, along with christianity, buddhism, humanism, and the attitudes of the left, right, and every other belief out there.
    What about people who spend every waking hour "criticizing and satirizing" Islam?
    Personally I can;t stand people who spend their lives picking holes in the Koran or what the prophet did or didn;t do with his time or whatever. What a bunch of useless saddos. Nobody listens to them or gives a toss.

    Should they be prosecuted for that? Put in prison? no. They can try to find fault with religions in stupid inconsequential ways if they want. Its their own time they are wasting. Nobody else's.
    Fair enough. But we don't have a blasphemy law. Only islamaphobes say that.

    ISLAM SUCKS!

    See?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,928
    edited August 2020
    And a win of 38 pence on the VP market !
    Apologies for anyone who followed my steer.
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    Pulpstar said:

    And a win of 38 pence on the VP market !
    Apologies for anyone who followed my steer.

    Before or after the premium charge?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    Scott_xP said:
    As I earlier tipped her at 1000/1 for next President, I am quietly delighted.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,928

    Pulpstar said:

    And a win of 38 pence on the VP market !
    Apologies for anyone who followed my steer.

    Before or after the premium charge?
    That'll reduce it further.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Pulpstar said:

    And a win of 38 pence on the VP market !
    Apologies for anyone who followed my steer.

    Sadly, I have lost a few quid on this one. I urm and argh too long about greening out Harris.

    :disappointed:
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    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,193

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP slot -- Susan Rice now odds-on on Betfair. Many of the rags laid off the boards.

    Susan Rice: 1.7
    Kamala Harris: 2.92
    Val Demings: 19
    Gretchen Whitmer: 20
    Elizabeth Warren: 26
    Michelle Obama: 30
    Tammy Duckworth: 30
    Hillary Clinton: 65

    Leak, or jumping too soon to conclusions ?

    (FWIW, I’ve covered both options.)
    Rice is bouncing around between odds-on and odds-against the same way Kamala Harris was a few days ago. My guess is people are actively adjusting their positions according to what they think will happen. If it were a leak, if someone thought they knew, they'd just take the lot, and that is not happening.
    That’s my gut feel.

    But like everyone else, I don’t know anything.
    I suppose the rational thing to do might be to look at the other candidates if we assume it is a false market on the front two, but can we assume that? Tbh I am thinking of greening up just so I can stop looking at this market and get some sleep!
    The rational thing to do is ... LOL.
    All the books have suspended. Is something up or do they just fancy an early night?
    Bass out:

    California Rep. Karen Bass, chairwoman of the Congressional Black Caucus, was told by Biden himself that she was not the pick, a source familiar tells CNN.
    https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/11/politics/biden-vp-pick/index.html
    They think it's all over...
    Rice 7
    Harris 1.4

    Harris 1.03 now.
    So it's Kamala as per my vision! But when will she be president? This is the question we must now focus on.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    fox327 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    MikeL said:

    Next year they'll say it's not fair to have lower grades than this year - especially as those children will also have had their work interrupted by virus.

    So you're then in a position of prizes for everyone and a completely meaningless exam system.

    That then means employers just set their own tests to determine who really is capable.

    Youy're forgetting that the results still rank people, and there are dates on the certificates.

    Either the system will revert to the pre-virus procedures and no comparable special treatment, which is rough justice of sorts but a special case (as, it must be said, so much else to do with the virus). Or the system needs to be reviewed in its approach to grading. It will be very interesting to see what the promised review in Scotland does.
    Option B.

    The point is that this has shown with brutal clarity that the people running our exam systems are morons.

    Now those of us who have worked for them - as I have - and seen their incompetence up close knew that already.

    But as of this moment, everyone knows are exams are controlled by people who cannot manage simple quality control processes or basic statistics.

    How does that affect the credibility of exams going forward? Hint - not positively.

    So I do not see how either OFQUAL or the SQA or indeed the direct exam boards survive this fiasco. They already looked shaky enough even before today’s announcement (and given the way England’s results are set up, I am 99% sure Williamson will have to follow suit here).

    That might well be a good thing. But it does depend on what replaces them.
    There is no good way out of this now. The schools stayed open for key workers's children. They could have stayed open for examinations as well, possibly by hiring extra premises and retired teachers. No attempt was made to do this by the government, and all the consequences for the examination system flow from this fact. Also, students' coursework could have been externally marked instead of being marked by their own teachers. This government put responding to the COVID crisis above everything else, including educational standards, and they are about to reap the consequences.

    A new set of qualifications will be probably needed in a few years time as the current school examinations are now likely to become irrevocably degraded by grade inflation.

    How was grade inflation avoided for so many years in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and the early 1980s? I suspect that exam boards were relatively free of political interference and regulations. Perhaps schools would now be better off with the International Baccalaureate which is run in such a way as to prioritise academic standards. This however will not be allowed as government intervention in schools will only increase. It is funny that the more government interference in education there is, the lower the academic standards become.
    I’m not an education specialist but isn’t the best way to give an Alphanumeric result in future to indicate both relative and absolute performance

    A89 would indicate top 10% of candidates with a course mark of 89%

    D64 would indicate that they are in 30-40% band and scored 64%

    Etc etc

    (I’d mark everyone who is lower than a relative rank of 50% as an F)
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    CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2020
    Harris seems competent
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    An important debate (FWIW I’m in favour of a challenge trial):

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1293263923022503936

    I don’t see how you can ethically* implement a target species challenge trial though given the severity of the disease. I think you’ve got to go down the route of a placebo controlled trial

    * meant in the technical sense rather than a personal comment.
    Understood.
    It’s not an easy decision, but IMO, if you have a cohort of young, properly informed volunteers, and the challenge dose is strictly limited, there is a very good case for it.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited August 2020

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    Reddit, which on the whole is pretty left-wing and pro Bernie, seems relatively happy with Harris. The “4th most progressive senator” apparently: https://progressivepunch.org/scores.htm?house=senate.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Pleased I didn't lay off my Kamala position on the basis of that fox news scheduling bit.
    Decent choice from Biden, who seems to be playing it safe in all respects.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,085
    edited August 2020

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    Fwiw I have Roseanne Cash, George Takei, Craig Mazin and The Lincoln Project on my twitter feed applauding the Harris pick.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    Well they'll be able to regret their decision as they are being rounded up by 'federal' paramilitary and taken to a holding area then wont they. Fools.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,928
    OTOH Just laid off £25 at 85 on Harris in the main prediential market.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,178

    God, I hate it when the aristos tell the plebs what to do.

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1293263729665159169

    I think I saw what you did there.

    Being poorly educated I am still however debating the following conundrum:

    Plain old Neil Kinnock being lectured by Lord Stansgate.

    OR

    Plain old Tony Benn being lectured by Lord Kinnock.
    Well I'm the King of subtlety and nuance.
    Indeed you are.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    God, I hate it when the aristos tell the plebs what to do.

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1293263729665159169

    I’ve paid both rent and a mortgage. Does that make me a pleb in your eyes?
    I too have paid both rent and a mortgage and I'm no pleb.

    But the second Viscount Stansgate is definitely an aristo.
    It’s a post Lloyd George peerage. No way he qualifies.
    By the definition in my OED Benn was an aristo.
    What’s your definition?

    Benn had a hereditary peerage, sure, but the massive expansion of that class by Lloyd George and his successors substantially devalued their worth.

    There are currently 814 hereditary peers in the U.K., of which about 700 are “post Lloyd George”
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
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    President Biden and Prime Minister Starmer.

    Very similar personalities
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    Harris 1.01 to be VP nominee
    BUT BUT BUT Biden 1.02 to be Presidential nominee.

    So 1.02 Biden to keep breathing for one more week and if he does pull out then presumably Harris bets go down as well.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    Pulpstar said:

    OTOH Just laid off £25 at 85 on Harris in the main prediential market.

    Yes, that was nice.
    Left a little money on, just in case.

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    Nigelb said:

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
    I'm a relentless pessimist on this election.

    I'm definitely a glass half empty guy at the moment.
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    Not Michelle Obama then?

    Robert Smithson must be mightily relieved.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    Aye, the 'UKIP, Farage and Brexit were vastly important elements in the nation's history' merchants always seem to fall silent when they're reminded that Scotland didn't vote for any of them. I am quite proud of that as it happens.
    At least in the UK its a fringe, not a government.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    There's lots of things where it seems to be assumed the Scots are very different to the rest of the UK.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,085
    Nigelb said:

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
    Matter of opinion of course but I feel you last two words are superfluous.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    An important debate (FWIW I’m in favour of a challenge trial):

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1293263923022503936

    I don’t see how you can ethically* implement a target species challenge trial though given the severity of the disease. I think you’ve got to go down the route of a placebo controlled trial

    * meant in the technical sense rather than a personal comment.
    Understood.
    It’s not an easy decision, but IMO, if you have a cohort of young, properly informed volunteers, and the challenge dose is strictly limited, there is a very good case for it.
    Can you really properly inform people about tail risk though? I’m not sure you can. And if the dose is limited it may not reflect the real world / if the challenge cohort is limited (not sure which you meant) you run into issues with statistical significance
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,193

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    The Scot Greens caved! Who saw that coming?

    https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1293223482273259529?s=20

    Massie is finding it unreasonable that a party focussed heavily on the student demographic should focus also on its concerns. Rather odd of him.

    The SNP administration is a minority one, pace those PBers who go berserk about alleged one-party states. So of course the Greens claim the credit. It's not as if the SCUP MSPs would vote to help the SNP at all, still less the SLAB ones (on the Bain Principle), and I'm not sure what the LDs think except SNP bad.
    Massie is a unionist lickspittle, he could not be objective if it hit him on the face. Everything SNP or independence is bad to him, the fanny likes cricket, what can I say.
    Is it possible, would you say, to support Scottish independence AND like cricket?

    I have not in practice come across this particular combination but my circle is not wide these days.
    Jimmy Reid, trade unionist and variously Communist, Labour member & supporter of Scottish Independence, was a big cricket fan.

    Edit: I note it was the 10th anniversary of his death yesterday. His funeral service was attended by Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, Gordon Brown, Alex Salmond, Sir Alex Ferguson and Sir Billy Connolly, not a bad haul changing reputations notwithstanding.
    My dad - even during his working class uncle tom tory phase - was a massive fan of Jimmy Reid.

    "If all communists were like that I'd consider it."

    Still remember him saying that.
    As I remember Jimmy Reid was rather scathing about Arthur.
    Which would have endeared him all the more to my dad. He hated - and I mean hated - Scargill. Still does. The miners strike was intense in our house. Got a bit traumatic at times.
    Don't think McGahey was that keen on Arthur either though he stayed on board during the battle.

    Feisty times, used to go to my gran's for tea and get pummeled by my dad as a pinko enemy within, then go to a hostelry to get pummeled by the ultras for saying Arthur was fucking it up. Happy days..
    Ha. Well my dad was management and running picket lines, my brother at 19 was on strike and on those lines, and they lived together. You can imagine.
    Can indeed, classic Play for Today if there was still a PFT.
    Maybe an R4 afternoon play in these reduced times?
    ☺ - Ok. I'll get writing!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216

    Nigelb said:

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
    I'm a relentless pessimist on this election.

    I'm definitely a glass half empty guy at the moment.
    Don't blame you. I think all this talk of Biden being ahead by plenty is going to turn out to be polling rot. Shy Trumpsters will come out of the woodwork and make this very close imho.

    Hope I am very wrong.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    The Scot Greens caved! Who saw that coming?

    https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1293223482273259529?s=20

    Massie is finding it unreasonable that a party focussed heavily on the student demographic should focus also on its concerns. Rather odd of him.

    The SNP administration is a minority one, pace those PBers who go berserk about alleged one-party states. So of course the Greens claim the credit. It's not as if the SCUP MSPs would vote to help the SNP at all, still less the SLAB ones (on the Bain Principle), and I'm not sure what the LDs think except SNP bad.
    Massie is a unionist lickspittle, he could not be objective if it hit him on the face. Everything SNP or independence is bad to him, the fanny likes cricket, what can I say.
    Is it possible, would you say, to support Scottish independence AND like cricket?

    I have not in practice come across this particular combination but my circle is not wide these days.
    Jimmy Reid, trade unionist and variously Communist, Labour member & supporter of Scottish Independence, was a big cricket fan.

    Edit: I note it was the 10th anniversary of his death yesterday. His funeral service was attended by Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, Gordon Brown, Alex Salmond, Sir Alex Ferguson and Sir Billy Connolly, not a bad haul changing reputations notwithstanding.
    My dad - even during his working class uncle tom tory phase - was a massive fan of Jimmy Reid.

    "If all communists were like that I'd consider it."

    Still remember him saying that.
    As I remember Jimmy Reid was rather scathing about Arthur.
    Which would have endeared him all the more to my dad. He hated - and I mean hated - Scargill. Still does. The miners strike was intense in our house. Got a bit traumatic at times.
    Don't think McGahey was that keen on Arthur either though he stayed on board during the battle.

    Feisty times, used to go to my gran's for tea and get pummeled by my dad as a pinko enemy within, then go to a hostelry to get pummeled by the ultras for saying Arthur was fucking it up. Happy days..
    Ha. Well my dad was management and running picket lines, my brother at 19 was on strike and on those lines, and they lived together. You can imagine.
    Can indeed, classic Play for Today if there was still a PFT.
    Maybe an R4 afternoon play in these reduced times?
    ☺ - Ok. I'll get writing!
    Some inspiration

    https://musicaficionado.blog/2016/06/22/shipbuilding-by-elvis-costello/
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    An important debate (FWIW I’m in favour of a challenge trial):

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1293263923022503936

    I don’t see how you can ethically* implement a target species challenge trial though given the severity of the disease. I think you’ve got to go down the route of a placebo controlled trial

    * meant in the technical sense rather than a personal comment.
    Understood.
    It’s not an easy decision, but IMO, if you have a cohort of young, properly informed volunteers, and the challenge dose is strictly limited, there is a very good case for it.
    Is it really needed given the resurgence of COVID? Seems like should be possible to get enough infected anyway given resurgence in US and rapidly rising cases in much of developed world.

    I'd argue that deliberately infecting with a disease we have little treatment for when there are exposed populations anyway is unethical, unless you can show that this really would speed things up dramatically.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    edited August 2020

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    Aye, the 'UKIP, Farage and Brexit were vastly important elements in the nation's history' merchants always seem to fall silent when they're reminded that Scotland didn't vote for any of them. I am quite proud of that as it happens.
    That's nice. Scotland has 4% ethnic minorities. Easy to wave a #refugeeswelcome sign and sneer at the dreadful bigoted English and their tendency to elect anti-immigration parties when you have none of the tensions and difficulties arising from that immigration.
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    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    From the article...

    The truth was far more mundane. A few protesters among the many thousands appear to have burned a single Bible — and possibly a second — for kindling to start a bigger fire. None of the other protesters seemed to notice or care.

    So conservatives criticised protestors for burning the Bible because... drum roll... they burned a Bible.

    But it's a "Russian Hit!!!!!!" because, presumably, this is seen as a way of drawing the sting from a legitimate criticism.



    edit: and in what way is "using a Bible as kindling for a bigger fire" any different to "burning a Bible"?
    You are being disingenuous there, Charles. Clearly, using a Bible as kindling because it is to hand is qualitatively different from burning a Bible specifically in order to make a political or religious point. And one or two people burning a Bible for either reason and others not noticing is qualitatively different from deliberate, political Bible-burning being one of the defining themes of the protest.
    So the Bible was burned in a non-prejorative context and people are only offended because of the Russians?

    Somehow I don't think many US Christians are going to find that argument very convincing.
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    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    No 'othering' after Yousef's law BY law....! - or prison!

    Still, you get to keep your hands. For now.
    Ah, I see the Muslim thing is one of your many triggers.
    Anything rather defend a gagging blasphemy law eh?
    Do you still defend coked up racists using the word P*kis?
    Absolutely not but I do defend people who might like to criticise and satirize islam and its prophet should they so wish, along with christianity, buddhism, humanism, and the attitudes of the left, right, and every other belief out there.
    What about people who spend every waking hour "criticizing and satirizing" Islam?
    Personally I can;t stand people who spend their lives picking holes in the Koran or what the prophet did or didn;t do with his time or whatever. What a bunch of useless saddos. Nobody listens to them or gives a toss.

    Should they be prosecuted for that? Put in prison? no. They can try to find fault with religions in stupid inconsequential ways if they want. Its their own time they are wasting. Nobody else's.
    Fair enough. But we don't have a blasphemy law. Only islamaphobes say that.

    ISLAM SUCKS!

    See?
    Indeed I 100% agree with you on this.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Charles said:

    God, I hate it when the aristos tell the plebs what to do.

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1293263729665159169

    I’ve paid both rent and a mortgage. Does that make me a pleb in your eyes?
    I hope not, it totally destroys my mental image of you.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    I feel like this was decided months ago

    It's american politics, it's in the constitution that it needs to be interminably drawn out.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    kle4 said:

    There's lots of things where it seems to be assumed the Scots are very different to the rest of the UK.
    The SNP like to push the line that "the Scots are different from rUK".

    The polling evidence on attitudes says otherwise.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,434
    edited August 2020

    Nigelb said:

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
    I'm a relentless pessimist on this election.

    I'm definitely a glass half empty guy at the moment.
    Don't blame you. I think all this talk of Biden being ahead by plenty is going to turn out to be polling rot. Shy Trumpsters will come out of the woodwork and make this very close imho.

    Hope I am very wrong.
    I'm more worried about electoral shenanigans from Trump and the GOP.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Why not Krazy Kamala, to get all alliterative?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,616
    edited August 2020
    How come you can still make 1% profit on backing Harris, after Biden's announcement?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.168954647
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Nigelb said:
    Well I guess Biden gets three for the price of one
    Seriously, could you two please get busy and cancel the troll?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,085

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    Aye, the 'UKIP, Farage and Brexit were vastly important elements in the nation's history' merchants always seem to fall silent when they're reminded that Scotland didn't vote for any of them. I am quite proud of that as it happens.
    At least in the UK its a fringe, not a government.
    The Right Honourable
    Boris Johnson
    MP
    Prime Minister of the United Kingdom
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    kle4 said:

    There's lots of things where it seems to be assumed the Scots are very different to the rest of the UK.
    The SNP like to push the line that "the Scots are different from rUK".

    The polling evidence on attitudes says otherwise.
    Yet their electoral success suggests it is working, possibly even to the ultimate end at some point.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Poor Wolves.
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    EPGEPG Posts: 6,006
    Andy_JS said:

    How come you can still make 1% profit on backing Harris, after Biden's announcement?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.168954647

    Actuarial doesn't explain it.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597

    Nigelb said:

    Harris I fear gives the Bernie bros an excuse to sit out the election and let Trump win a second term.

    As opposed to Rice ?

    And I don’t buy that thesis anyway.
    Biden will be running on the most progressive Democratic platform ever. Against the biggest asshole to hold the Presidency since Jackson.
    I'm a relentless pessimist on this election.

    I'm definitely a glass half empty guy at the moment.
    Having made money on both nominee & VP, I am perhaps overconfident, I acknowledge...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Battle for the soul of the nation is a bit of a mouthful, but does add an element of moral imperative for those who dislike Trump to get on board, whatever the misgivings.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,085

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    Aye, the 'UKIP, Farage and Brexit were vastly important elements in the nation's history' merchants always seem to fall silent when they're reminded that Scotland didn't vote for any of them. I am quite proud of that as it happens.
    That's nice. Scotland has 4% ethnic minorities. Easy to wave a #refugeeswelcome sign and sneer at the dreadful bigoted English and their tendency to elect anti-immigration parties when you have none of the tensions and difficulties arising from that immigration.
    Here's a thought, why doesn't England vote for the government it wants to deal the tensions and difficulties arising from immigration, and Scotland can do the same?

    Oh, that's right, England already does.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,419
    kinabalu said:

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    No 'othering' after Yousef's law BY law....! - or prison!

    Still, you get to keep your hands. For now.
    Ah, I see the Muslim thing is one of your many triggers.
    Anything rather defend a gagging blasphemy law eh?
    Do you still defend coked up racists using the word P*kis?
    Absolutely not but I do defend people who might like to criticise and satirize islam and its prophet should they so wish, along with christianity, buddhism, humanism, and the attitudes of the left, right, and every other belief out there.
    What about people who spend every waking hour "criticizing and satirizing" Islam?
    That's their right. You don't stop free speech when it gets 'a bit much'.
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    tlg86 said:

    Poor Wolves.

    Especially as VAR missed the encroachment on the penalty.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,597
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    An important debate (FWIW I’m in favour of a challenge trial):

    https://twitter.com/angie_rasmussen/status/1293263923022503936

    I don’t see how you can ethically* implement a target species challenge trial though given the severity of the disease. I think you’ve got to go down the route of a placebo controlled trial

    * meant in the technical sense rather than a personal comment.
    Understood.
    It’s not an easy decision, but IMO, if you have a cohort of young, properly informed volunteers, and the challenge dose is strictly limited, there is a very good case for it.
    Is it really needed given the resurgence of COVID? Seems like should be possible to get enough infected anyway given resurgence in US and rapidly rising cases in much of developed world.

    I'd argue that deliberately infecting with a disease we have little treatment for when there are exposed populations anyway is unethical, unless you can show that this really would speed things up dramatically.
    That you could certainly do.
    I agree that the rest is a difficult call.
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    tlg86 said:
    I'm sure if we just argue for long enough eventually the Tories will agree with public ownership and ending austerity for good
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    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How come you can still make 1% profit on backing Harris, after Biden's announcement?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.168954647

    Actuarial doesn't explain it.
    You can get 1.01 on Harris because you can get 1.02 on Joe Biden being the presidential nominee.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    What these cretins pretend not to realise is that making slight compromises in the interests of winning does not mean you have to abandon all of your principles and objectives. It's not an either/or equation.
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,193

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    No 'othering' after Yousef's law BY law....! - or prison!

    Still, you get to keep your hands. For now.
    Ah, I see the Muslim thing is one of your many triggers.
    Anything rather defend a gagging blasphemy law eh?
    Do you still defend coked up racists using the word P*kis?
    Absolutely not but I do defend people who might like to criticise and satirize islam and its prophet should they so wish, along with christianity, buddhism, humanism, and the attitudes of the left, right, and every other belief out there.
    What about people who spend every waking hour "criticizing and satirizing" Islam?
    Personally I can;t stand people who spend their lives picking holes in the Koran or what the prophet did or didn;t do with his time or whatever. What a bunch of useless saddos. Nobody listens to them or gives a toss.

    Should they be prosecuted for that? Put in prison? no. They can try to find fault with religions in stupid inconsequential ways if they want. Its their own time they are wasting. Nobody else's.
    Fair enough. But we don't have a blasphemy law. Only islamaphobes say that.

    ISLAM SUCKS!

    See?
    Indeed I 100% agree with you on this.
    And are you scared of prosecution? No.

    It's bollox this "blasphemy law" claim.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:

    Poor Wolves.

    Especially as VAR missed the encroachment on the penalty.
    I actually think that encroachment and goalkeeper off the line shouldn't be covered by VAR. The on-field officials should get it right.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited August 2020

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    Aye, the 'UKIP, Farage and Brexit were vastly important elements in the nation's history' merchants always seem to fall silent when they're reminded that Scotland didn't vote for any of them. I am quite proud of that as it happens.
    That's nice. Scotland has 4% ethnic minorities. Easy to wave a #refugeeswelcome sign and sneer at the dreadful bigoted English and their tendency to elect anti-immigration parties when you have none of the tensions and difficulties arising from that immigration.
    Here's a thought, why doesn't England vote for the government it wants to deal the tensions and difficulties arising from immigration, and Scotland can do the same?

    Oh, that's right, England already does.
    Northumberland is 98% White so experiences none of the “difficulties” or “tensions” @Luckyguy1983 is blathering on about. They still elect Tory MPs though.

    County Durham also.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    tlg86 said:
    I'm sure if we just argue for long enough eventually the Tories will agree with public ownership and ending austerity for good
    Hasn't that, err, happened?!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,928
    edited August 2020
    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How come you can still make 1% profit on backing Harris, after Biden's announcement?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.168954647

    Actuarial doesn't explain it.
    Well Biden is 1.02 still. And if he snuffs it I presume Harris becomes the Dem nominee.
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    kle4 said:

    What these cretins pretend not to realise is that making slight compromises in the interests of winning does not mean you have to abandon all of your principles and objectives. It's not an either/or equation.
    No they don't.

    Their obsession is with proving Starmer isn't left wing enough. But let's be honest it's because he's not polling -75 that makes them angry.

    Maybe we just have to accept we can't pitch everything we want but I'd rather have half of it and actually get elected
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    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:
    I'm sure if we just argue for long enough eventually the Tories will agree with public ownership and ending austerity for good
    Hasn't that, err, happened?!
    It didn't happen because we argued, it happened because we fought elections and changed the landscape. 2017 was the primary cause of that, not Jezza holding rallies for 10 years
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Yeah, we just seem to be reasonably immune from a need to vote for parties that espouse ant-immigrant & anti-refugee rhetoric, eg UKIP, TBP and the Tory party. Still, let's see if the linesman can build up some momentum with the gypsy traveller schtick.
    Absolutely! No "othering" in Scottish politics! No "blaming another country" for Scotland's failings. You must be so proud!

    No 'othering' after Yousef's law BY law....! - or prison!

    Still, you get to keep your hands. For now.
    Ah, I see the Muslim thing is one of your many triggers.
    Anything rather defend a gagging blasphemy law eh?
    Do you still defend coked up racists using the word P*kis?
    Absolutely not but I do defend people who might like to criticise and satirize islam and its prophet should they so wish, along with christianity, buddhism, humanism, and the attitudes of the left, right, and every other belief out there.
    What about people who spend every waking hour "criticizing and satirizing" Islam?
    Personally I can;t stand people who spend their lives picking holes in the Koran or what the prophet did or didn;t do with his time or whatever. What a bunch of useless saddos. Nobody listens to them or gives a toss.

    Should they be prosecuted for that? Put in prison? no. They can try to find fault with religions in stupid inconsequential ways if they want. Its their own time they are wasting. Nobody else's.
    Fair enough. But we don't have a blasphemy law. Only islamaphobes say that.

    ISLAM SUCKS!

    See?
    Indeed I 100% agree with you on this.
    And are you scared of prosecution? No.

    It's bollox this "blasphemy law" claim.
    If you say so, though on free speech issues better to err on the side of caution.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    God, I hate it when the aristos tell the plebs what to do.

    https://twitter.com/labour_history/status/1293263729665159169

    I’ve paid both rent and a mortgage. Does that make me a pleb in your eyes?
    I too have paid both rent and a mortgage and I'm no pleb.

    But the second Viscount Stansgate is definitely an aristo.
    It’s a post Lloyd George peerage. No way he qualifies.
    By the definition in my OED Benn was an aristo.
    What’s your definition?

    Benn had a hereditary peerage, sure, but the massive expansion of that class by Lloyd George and his successors substantially devalued their worth.

    There are currently 814 hereditary peers in the U.K., of which about 700 are “post Lloyd George”
    Blackpool alone has three.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,616

    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    How come you can still make 1% profit on backing Harris, after Biden's announcement?

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.168954647

    Actuarial doesn't explain it.
    You can get 1.01 on Harris because you can get 1.02 on Joe Biden being the presidential nominee.
    Also I've just noticed Harris is 100 to be the presidential candidate herself, (as well as 75 to become president).
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    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,193
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    malcolmg said:

    Carnyx said:

    The Scot Greens caved! Who saw that coming?

    https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1293223482273259529?s=20

    Massie is finding it unreasonable that a party focussed heavily on the student demographic should focus also on its concerns. Rather odd of him.

    The SNP administration is a minority one, pace those PBers who go berserk about alleged one-party states. So of course the Greens claim the credit. It's not as if the SCUP MSPs would vote to help the SNP at all, still less the SLAB ones (on the Bain Principle), and I'm not sure what the LDs think except SNP bad.
    Massie is a unionist lickspittle, he could not be objective if it hit him on the face. Everything SNP or independence is bad to him, the fanny likes cricket, what can I say.
    Is it possible, would you say, to support Scottish independence AND like cricket?

    I have not in practice come across this particular combination but my circle is not wide these days.
    Jimmy Reid, trade unionist and variously Communist, Labour member & supporter of Scottish Independence, was a big cricket fan.

    Edit: I note it was the 10th anniversary of his death yesterday. His funeral service was attended by Ed Balls, Ed Miliband, Gordon Brown, Alex Salmond, Sir Alex Ferguson and Sir Billy Connolly, not a bad haul changing reputations notwithstanding.
    My dad - even during his working class uncle tom tory phase - was a massive fan of Jimmy Reid.

    "If all communists were like that I'd consider it."

    Still remember him saying that.
    As I remember Jimmy Reid was rather scathing about Arthur.
    Which would have endeared him all the more to my dad. He hated - and I mean hated - Scargill. Still does. The miners strike was intense in our house. Got a bit traumatic at times.
    Don't think McGahey was that keen on Arthur either though he stayed on board during the battle.

    Feisty times, used to go to my gran's for tea and get pummeled by my dad as a pinko enemy within, then go to a hostelry to get pummeled by the ultras for saying Arthur was fucking it up. Happy days..
    Ha. Well my dad was management and running picket lines, my brother at 19 was on strike and on those lines, and they lived together. You can imagine.
    Can indeed, classic Play for Today if there was still a PFT.
    Maybe an R4 afternoon play in these reduced times?
    ☺ - Ok. I'll get writing!
    Some inspiration

    https://musicaficionado.blog/2016/06/22/shipbuilding-by-elvis-costello/
    Great stuff. But long time no hear.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,178
    This is why winning was Corbyn's worst nightmare. One can't harp from the sidelines when controlling the levers of power. Harping from the touchline is what the Corbyn set live for.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Brexit happened ages ago. Why are these guys still so obsessed?
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,616
    kle4 said:

    What these cretins pretend not to realise is that making slight compromises in the interests of winning does not mean you have to abandon all of your principles and objectives. It's not an either/or equation.
    The Tories have to abandon principles to win elections too.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    UK: number of asylum seekers by year

    image

    Are there any statistics as to where the claim of asylum was made?
    IIRC, between 75 and 80% of claims happen at the UK's international airports. So, if we assume that 30,000 asylum seekers arrive in the UK each year, that means around 6,000 come via the Channel.

    (It doesn't get much reported, but more of France's asylum seekers head North to Belgium, Holland and beyond than try and cross the Channel. While Sangrettes and the Calais jungle gets all the press, the reality is that the French government puts migrant camps by their international borders, makes conditions really shit, and then hope that as many as possible self-deport. They do this because it is politically popular in France.)
    Many votes in being "tough" on this issue. Merkel was imo brave and principled to go the other way.
    Merkel was neither brace nor principled. Brave and principled would have been saying Germany would be taking more migrants and offering safe transport to get there. She took the path of least resistance instead and created a darkly Darwinian experiment of survival of the fittest that led to many deaths with no safe transit.

    Cameron was brave and principled.
    I think it rather telling, whether one supports Merkel's intentions or their consequences or not, that apparently cooperation between nations which is usually stated to be so vital went right out the window and it was deemed ok to act unilaterally in the way she did.
    I think PT is absolutely correct on this one. Merkel's behaviour was despicable.

    One point not noted was that Germany at the time had a shrinking population and a lot empty homes (unlike the UK) so had many facilities available.

    This was 2014:

    image
    She exposed the hypocrisy and empty rhetoric of lesser, narrow minded politicians. This is not my definition of despicable.
    She was the lesser, narrow minded politician.

    Did she offer to take refugees from camps at the front line?

    Did she offer safe transport and safe transit to a safe harbour?

    She did nothing.
    Except make it possible - in defiance of a rising tide of introverted populism - for 1m plus people fleeing destitution and violence to have the sort of life that you and I take for granted.
    Oh really?

    So did she offer safe transit for a million plus people?
    Did she have some selection criteria, or even lottery or any other metric to fairly determine who those million would be?
    Did she do so based on needs?

    Or did she walk away from making any decisions and did people smugglers and criminal gangs provide the transport for a million people leaving people to drown due to her inaction?

    Given your objections to eg private schools, I don't understand how you don't seethe with rage at how despicable her letting money and gangs determine who could migrate instead of fairness. Clearly your ideals on fairness only go so far.

    By saying that anyone who made it there could stay but there'd be no legal movement or safe transit and you'd have to pay people smugglers to get you there - was no more fair than a politician saying everyone should have a good education, so long as parents pay tuition fees to private schools and there will be no state schools.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,928
    Harris is as safe a VP nominee as they come for the Dems, plainly not on the loony left but also 'expands the coalition' for the whitehouse.
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    Brexit happened ages ago. Why are these guys still so obsessed?
    Because they think it will define voting habits forever.

    I genuinely don't know if that's the case, I wonder what the electoral landscape looks like after we've ended the transition period
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    So, after all that, we end up with the pick who’s been favourite for ages. Anyone else think that Biden just wanted everyone taking about the VP ‘race’, to take the heat off himself for a couple of months?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Perhaps they'll regain them when Brexit turns out not to be the solution to all the problems.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    What these cretins pretend not to realise is that making slight compromises in the interests of winning does not mean you have to abandon all of your principles and objectives. It's not an either/or equation.
    The Tories have to abandon principles to win elections too.
    Yes, but not all of them.
This discussion has been closed.