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  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
    Well far from me to question who you allocate the unseemly insult "nuts " to but as a point of order you will see in the below I have argued only in the ineffective category. So you are both rude and going against your own criteria for handing out juvenile insults- I certainly have not stopped you visiting your parents as well (not sure how you come to that epic conclusion)
    Lol you said they are ineffective then provided an example that they are effective. Are they trying to argue that you aren't making a libertarian argument when your handle is state_go_away? Your right to do what you want is what is keeping this virus live and roaming. The NW lockdown means I can't see my parents. The lockdown is happening because of people not following the rules. People like you. May not be specifically you. I said people like you.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146


    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    Ironic really, as they have no problem wearing the whole gimp suit....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837

    malcolmg said:

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    There’s a misconception with new builds that because the materials are thin, they are poorly made. They are not. They are built with engineered materials that are not required to be super thick to be strong with good thermal performance.

    There’s a huge misconception in the UK that “brick” and “stone” is good and everything else is bad.

    I couldn’t buy an older property now that I am used to new build thermal performance. It really is night and day.

    Regardless, you are right that there are other issues with design. I’m lucky that I did 2 years worth of research so that my house (built in 2018) actually has very good room proportions, and a double side by side drive - something rare in a new build in my price range.

    You are right to highlight the leasehold problem, but it gets deeper than that. All new build homes are now freehold but with management companys. An arrangement that offers even less rights than leaseholders posses. I’ve wrote quite a few times about it on here but it attracts little interest.
    I agree, only thing I miss are the high ceilings, been in mine 14 years since new, large driveway , front ages etc all subject to rules so all kept nice and energy bills are tiny. Luckily we are all freehold in Scotland, no parasites bleeding us dry.
    I am disappointed. I thought you lived in a thatched croft on a deserted outer Hebredian island and dried your kilts on the south-facing hedge...
    I am in beautiful Ayrshire Bev, very green and gorgeous here due to the ample rain
    supply
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712
    OllyT said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    Frankly there really is something slightly odd about people who can get so hysterical about being required to wear a mask when going into a shop. I can quite see why some people don't think it makes much difference either way but frothing about it day in day out is something else. I really do wonder what your agenda is.
    The overly passionate views on masks seems to apply both ways imo. Perhaps we are all a bit stressed due a particularly malign virus.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Remember back in March the strategy was 'flattening the curve' and keeping infections within the capacity of the NHS to deal with them ?

    Does anyone know what the strategy is now ?

    It seems to me there are three aspects - economic and social freedoms, h&s restrictions and 'casualty rate'.

    The discussion about the trade off seems to be only about the first two.

    Whereas I think we need to consider what death rate we consider acceptable.

    Other countries announce a staged strategy to manage the virus. As the virus ebbs and flows they adjust the stage accordingly. Not England. Shagger announces a 5 point scale. Puts us on stage 3.5. And then swiftly abandons it never to be seen again. The utter incompetence should be staggering if it wasn't already priced in.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    There is no doubt that masks also do some good. A person with a cough, for example, can exhale virus laden particles a considerable distance and is a hazard to others. A mask reduces that risk, unquestionably.
    It may be that the element of caution and inhibition of interaction with others is a good thing right now.
    I just don't believe that this is simple or straightforward. When I am out in shops I wear a mask because the law requires it. I think people are still entitled to query whether that law is particularly sensible.
    Masks do some good, more in some places than others, but they also have negative effects as you pointed out.

    But the government focus on them seems to be displacement activity to distract from their laxity on international travel to tolerance of loutish joggers in the spring.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693

    Remember back in March the strategy was 'flattening the curve' and keeping infections within the capacity of the NHS to deal with them ?

    Does anyone know what the strategy is now ?

    It seems to me there are three aspects - economic and social freedoms, h&s restrictions and 'casualty rate'.

    The discussion about the trade off seems to be only about the first two.

    Whereas I think we need to consider what death rate we consider acceptable.

    What has happened is that East Asia countries in particular showed that it was possible to contain the spread of this virus far, far more effectively than our original modelling thought. This has brought us back to phase 1 of our response: can we use track, trace and test to control the virus indefinitely?

    What has happened in the last couple of weeks is that these early successes in East Asia have become somewhat tarnished as it becomes evident that suppression is not the same as elimination. Unless we are willing to live with extraordinary restrictions on our commerce indefinitely suppression doesn't seem as possible anymore.

    The problem now is do we hang in there in the hope that a vaccine is available in a few months or do we do as you suggest and come to more of an accommodation with the virus accepting that it will cause casualties amongst the vulnerable?

    I think we have to hope the vaccines deliver.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    edited August 2

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
    Well far from me to question who you allocate the unseemly insult "nuts " to but as a point of order you will see in the below I have argued only in the ineffective category. So you are both rude and going against your own criteria for handing out juvenile insults- I certainly have not stopped you visiting your parents as well (not sure how you come to that epic conclusion)
    Lol you said they are ineffective then provided an example that they are effective. Are they trying to argue that you aren't making a libertarian argument when your handle is state_go_away? Your right to do what you want is what is keeping this virus live and roaming. The NW lockdown means I can't see my parents. The lockdown is happening because of people not following the rules. People like you. May not be specifically you. I said people like you.
    that is laughable - I do follow the rules ,thats why I argue against those that I think are wrong because i have to ultimately follow them. That's people like me! I am no Dominic Cummings or that Medical officer (Ferguson?) who love these rules but cannot follow them personally.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 3,312
    This site needs a bulk delivery of chill pills.

    I live a solitary and brutish rural existence, but if I lived and worked in a city I'd pay good money - four figures - for a state of the art, fuck off, n95 level of protection mask which is guaranteed to filter out things as small as viruses. Looking at sailing/skiing/diving gear you can get really comfortable and well engineered safety gear if you are prepared to pay for it. And for those what can't afford it, it would surely be government money well spent to effectively give 100% protection to everyone in every context where you don't need to put stuff in your mouth.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    There is no doubt that masks also do some good. A person with a cough, for example, can exhale virus laden particles a considerable distance and is a hazard to others. A mask reduces that risk, unquestionably.
    It may be that the element of caution and inhibition of interaction with others is a good thing right now.
    I just don't believe that this is simple or straightforward. When I am out in shops I wear a mask because the law requires it. I think people are still entitled to query whether that law is particularly sensible.
    Masks do some good, more in some places than others, but they also have negative effects as you pointed out.

    But the government focus on them seems to be displacement activity to distract from their laxity on international travel to tolerance of loutish joggers in the spring.
    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    There is no doubt that masks also do some good. A person with a cough, for example, can exhale virus laden particles a considerable distance and is a hazard to others. A mask reduces that risk, unquestionably.
    It may be that the element of caution and inhibition of interaction with others is a good thing right now.
    I just don't believe that this is simple or straightforward. When I am out in shops I wear a mask because the law requires it. I think people are still entitled to query whether that law is particularly sensible.
    Masks do some good, more in some places than others, but they also have negative effects as you pointed out.

    But the government focus on them seems to be displacement activity to distract from their laxity on international travel to tolerance of loutish joggers in the spring.
    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.
    Lots of lobbying from airlines, travel companies and newspapers who rely on travel advertising.

    Wrong call, we shouldn’t be allowing people on planes without negative test results, this is what’s happening elsewhere. AIUI we still have flights coming in from India.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,692

    Remember back in March the strategy was 'flattening the curve' and keeping infections within the capacity of the NHS to deal with them ?

    Does anyone know what the strategy is now ?

    It seems to me there are three aspects - economic and social freedoms, h&s restrictions and 'casualty rate'.

    The discussion about the trade off seems to be only about the first two.

    Whereas I think we need to consider what death rate we consider acceptable.

    Other countries announce a staged strategy to manage the virus. As the virus ebbs and flows they adjust the stage accordingly. Not England. Shagger announces a 5 point scale. Puts us on stage 3.5. And then swiftly abandons it never to be seen again. The utter incompetence should be staggering if it wasn't already priced in.
    Reminds me of the Victoria Wood song 'I want to be fourteen again'
    'When sex was just called number ten
    And I was up to seven and a half'
    And then one got a year or so older...........
  • isamisam Posts: 33,474
    “ I was in the pub last night
    A mutual friend of ours said
    he'd seen you in the uniform
    Yeah the leather belt looks manly
    The black boots butch
    But oh what a bastard to get off
    Promises, promises
    They offer real solutions
    But hatred has never won for long”



  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
  • isamisam Posts: 33,474
    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082

    OllyT said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    Frankly there really is something slightly odd about people who can get so hysterical about being required to wear a mask when going into a shop. I can quite see why some people don't think it makes much difference either way but frothing about it day in day out is something else. I really do wonder what your agenda is.
    The overly passionate views on masks seems to apply both ways imo. Perhaps we are all a bit stressed due a particularly malign virus.
    The really odd thing to me is the insistence by some that there are no negative effects to wearing masks.

    I doubt anyone who has spent an hour going around a town centre wearing a mask would concur.

    So what we have is a trade off - the h&s benefits from mask wearing versus the economic and social negatives which result.

    It should be possible to have a rational discussion on that but there are fanatics on both sides.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390

    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
    Wordpress was updated a couple of months back: did your problems start then? Only @rcs1000 can investigate fully and details are often so vague and inconsistent between different PBers to make it look like a fool's errand. Have you tried the generic advice for these sorts of problems -- Is your browser up-to-date (menu > help > about...)? Have you cleared its cache and pb/Vanilla-related cookies? Have you tried a different browser? Are things different if you disable all browser extensions? If you click on the padlock or "not secure" message, does anything interesting appear? If you can use your browser's developer tools, do they flag any errors? Have you tried sacrificing a small mammal?
    Also, you mentioned an ipad so there might be different behaviour between the desktop and mobile versions of the site (though my ipad worked all right last time I tried).
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,297
    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,692
    edited August 2

    OllyT said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    Frankly there really is something slightly odd about people who can get so hysterical about being required to wear a mask when going into a shop. I can quite see why some people don't think it makes much difference either way but frothing about it day in day out is something else. I really do wonder what your agenda is.
    The overly passionate views on masks seems to apply both ways imo. Perhaps we are all a bit stressed due a particularly malign virus.
    The really odd thing to me is the insistence by some that there are no negative effects to wearing masks.

    I doubt anyone who has spent an hour going around a town centre wearing a mask would concur.

    So what we have is a trade off - the h&s benefits from mask wearing versus the economic and social negatives which result.

    It should be possible to have a rational discussion on that but there are fanatics on both sides.
    They're somewhat difficult manage if the straps are round your ears and you wear both cases and hearing aids. Doesn't stop me wearing one though!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,297
    Another Tory sex scandal :lol:
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    DavidL said:

    Remember back in March the strategy was 'flattening the curve' and keeping infections within the capacity of the NHS to deal with them ?

    Does anyone know what the strategy is now ?

    It seems to me there are three aspects - economic and social freedoms, h&s restrictions and 'casualty rate'.

    The discussion about the trade off seems to be only about the first two.

    Whereas I think we need to consider what death rate we consider acceptable.

    What has happened is that East Asia countries in particular showed that it was possible to contain the spread of this virus far, far more effectively than our original modelling thought. This has brought us back to phase 1 of our response: can we use track, trace and test to control the virus indefinitely?

    What has happened in the last couple of weeks is that these early successes in East Asia have become somewhat tarnished as it becomes evident that suppression is not the same as elimination. Unless we are willing to live with extraordinary restrictions on our commerce indefinitely suppression doesn't seem as possible anymore.

    The problem now is do we hang in there in the hope that a vaccine is available in a few months or do we do as you suggest and come to more of an accommodation with the virus accepting that it will cause casualties amongst the vulnerable?

    I think we have to hope the vaccines deliver.
    Its a discussion that needs to take place because the negative effects on the economy, society and public health in general will increase as the days grow colder and darker.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231
    DavidL said:

    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.

    This is one area where the virus and Brexit tie together. "The EU won't let us control our borders" said the Brexiteers. Yet here we are with even Schengen countries having had stronger controls than we have. Its like Patel has been given control but either doesn't know what to do or doesn't dare.

    Quarantine that allows you to get the train home and then go shopping and nobody at all will enforce it or even check up on you is not quarantine at all. There are some serious virus hotspots around the world, and we shouldn't be letting people fly in unchecked and unpoliced when they arrive.

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
    There was an easy alternative as so many other countries have done. Set out a scale of restrictions based on how bad the virus is at any given time. Apply the predetermined restrictions at an appropriate scale. As we've just seen in Victoria if the virus comes back change the status. People know what that is as its been already set out.

    Or do as we did. 5 point scale. Start half way between two points. Never refer to it again and randomly jump up and down with late night tweets.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    Yup - remains of west pier, Brighton. Only about 300 miles out....
  • isamisam Posts: 33,474
    edited August 2

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    It does look like Brighton!

    We were going to go to Cornwall, but the world and his wife have the same idea. Getting a bite to eat or a pint is going to be murder



  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712
    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
  • PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,651
    Dr Killingley cited a study in the US which found that no Covid-19 cases were reported among 139 clients who were exposed to two asymptomatic hair stylists in Missouri. Both of the stylists were wearing surgical masks or cotton face coverings at each appointment, as were their clients.

    Prof Wilcox said the study was "some of the best evidence that I've seen to date validating the usefulness of masks to prevent transmission of virus."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/08/01/hairdressers-could-transmitting-covid-result-inadequate-official/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    LOL, good spot. Definitely no burned-out pier in Cornwall.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,692

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    When I lived and worked in a holiday resort I never minded people coming. After all, they contributed to my income. What I did object to was them leaving loads of rubbish, and in this case bringing virus is the same thing.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,284

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    Given the only discussion at this stage would involve speculating about who it is, and doing so could put OGH in great legal hot water, probably for the best, don't you think.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390

    Another Tory sex scandal :lol:

    Yes, the lefties we keep being told dominate pb have been banging on about it all morning. Or have they?
  • Sandpit said:

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    There’s genuinely nothing to say.

    The police haven’t named him as he hasn’t been charged, and I’m sure Mike wouldn’t be happy if we did on here. Going into too many details could help identify him and by association the victim. The alleged behaviour is of course terrible, but we don’t know how much evidence exists at this stage.

    He is entitled to due process, and the complainant is entitled to anonymity.
    It wouldn't be the same response if it was Labour (not from you, your post is very balanced)
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649
    And meanwhile, as the wetting over masks and crowded beaches and everything else continues, the total number of Covid patients in hospital keeps trickling downwards - and has decreased by almost 50% since July 4th. It's still too soon to be sure of the impact of reopening the gyms, but there's certainly no evidence there to suggest that other (non-mask enforcing) social venues like pubs have kick-started a fresh wave of transmission. Isolated cases where people have taken the piss with social distancing or just been plain unlucky? Yes. A nationwide plague resurgence? No.

    Masks may or may not do any good in non-clinical settings. People gathering at seaside resorts has happened so often with no measurable consequence that we can probably just forget about that now.

    The big test will be when the schools come back - and, on that subject, do we think that the Government will come down swiftly in favour of masks for secondary pupils in England, or will it prevaricate until five minutes before they're due to reopen? Has there been any movement on this one way or the other in Scotland?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    It is alleged behaviour. What is there to say?

    It's not as if we were all rallying to Charlie Elphicke's flag, were we?

    There's a process and if there is evidence he will be charged and if the prosecution convince a jury there'll be a by-election.

    Are we to expect you piled on Nigel Evans when he was charged with rape - and then silent when he was acquitted?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.
    So what if it does.

    The seaside towns have some of the lowest infection rates.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    It does look like Brighton!

    We were going to go to Cornwall, but the world and his wife have the same idea. Getting a bite to eat or a pint is going to be murder



    Some friends of mine holidayed in Devon and Cornwall last week. They did not mention crowds being a problem, just that many "open" attractions needed to be pre-booked for short slots. I've heard the same is true of museums and galleries in London.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,228

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    Sounds about right.

    That link you provided to the Harlow experiment is absolutely terrifying. It’s like something out an Iain Banks novel.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    Shoddy journalism of course - locals are not one body with one thought, they are individuals - of course some of them might feel this way and some wont
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    When I lived and worked in a holiday resort I never minded people coming. After all, they contributed to my income. What I did object to was them leaving loads of rubbish, and in this case bringing virus is the same thing.
    Fine to object to them leaving rubbish, the virus isnt the same though unless they are travelling knowing they have covid, which seems very unlikely although I am sure they will find an idiot or two.

    The beaches are public and existed before we were born. If they want a private beach then save up to get one or more realistically for most go on holiday somewhere with one when you can afford it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,428

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    Depends on the beach!
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,284

    And meanwhile, as the wetting over masks and crowded beaches and everything else continues, the total number of Covid patients in hospital keeps trickling downwards - and has decreased by almost 50% since July 4th. It's still too soon to be sure of the impact of reopening the gyms, but there's certainly no evidence there to suggest that other (non-mask enforcing) social venues like pubs have kick-started a fresh wave of transmission. Isolated cases where people have taken the piss with social distancing or just been plain unlucky? Yes. A nationwide plague resurgence? No.

    Masks may or may not do any good in non-clinical settings. People gathering at seaside resorts has happened so often with no measurable consequence that we can probably just forget about that now.

    The big test will be when the schools come back - and, on that subject, do we think that the Government will come down swiftly in favour of masks for secondary pupils in England, or will it prevaricate until five minutes before they're due to reopen? Has there been any movement on this one way or the other in Scotland?

    The thing about wearing masks is that they are bearable for shortish periods. But for long periods, possibly in hot rooms, not really. And furthermore masks are very problematic for verbal interaction, which creates further issues for the way most school teaching in my experience operates.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    It is alleged behaviour. What is there to say?

    It's not as if we were all rallying to Charlie Elphicke's flag, were we?

    There's a process and if there is evidence he will be charged and if the prosecution convince a jury there'll be a by-election.

    Are we to expect you piled on Nigel Evans when he was charged with rape - and then silent when he was acquitted?
    The problems for the party (as opposed to those directly involved) will start with the questions, who knew what, and when?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649
    It's awful, but it doesn't surprise me that job applicants typically never hear anything. Businesses had a bad reputation for that before this all kicked off; now that some of them are getting thousands of applicants per vacancy, they're probably totally overwhelmed sifting through the responses - let alone sending out even standard format rejection emails to the unsuccessful.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.
    So what if it does.

    The seaside towns have some of the lowest infection rates.
    My mistake - I thought the reference was to the crowds rather than the pier.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 16,375

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.
    .

    If you think disabled people (especially disabled people without a very visually obvious disability) receiving verbal and physical abuse is some kind of new thing then you have lived a very sheltered life.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 6,759

    Sandpit said:

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    There’s genuinely nothing to say.

    The police haven’t named him as he hasn’t been charged, and I’m sure Mike wouldn’t be happy if we did on here. Going into too many details could help identify him and by association the victim. The alleged behaviour is of course terrible, but we don’t know how much evidence exists at this stage.

    He is entitled to due process, and the complainant is entitled to anonymity.
    It wouldn't be the same response if it was Labour (not from you, your post is very balanced)
    What was the response to the Alex Salmond matter?
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    It's awful, but it doesn't surprise me that job applicants typically never hear anything. Businesses had a bad reputation for that before this all kicked off; now that some of them are getting thousands of applicants per vacancy, they're probably totally overwhelmed sifting through the responses - let alone sending out even standard format rejection emails to the unsuccessful.
    Not excusing it s it is bad manners but another reason is that by not replying especially with any feedback the company cannot be sued (or makes it less likely) for not considering an applicant.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    edited August 2

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    Shoddy journalism of course - locals are not one body with one thought, they are individuals - of course some of them might feel this way and some wont
    How many of the complaining ‘locals’ are actually rich Londoner second-home types, who think that their “investment” in the area somehow entitles them to priority on the beach?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,284

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    It is alleged behaviour. What is there to say?

    It's not as if we were all rallying to Charlie Elphicke's flag, were we?

    There's a process and if there is evidence he will be charged and if the prosecution convince a jury there'll be a by-election.

    Are we to expect you piled on Nigel Evans when he was charged with rape - and then silent when he was acquitted?
    The problems for the party (as opposed to those directly involved) will start with the questions, who knew what, and when?
    Suggestion is that internal complaints were made and they were told to go the police/independent complaints authorities. This isn't like the old days when such issues were deliberately tried to be kept in house (and even on occasion used as a way of controlling the backbenches under threat of exposure). Actually investigating in house is almost certainly not at all the approach to take.

    Clearly if attempts were made at cover-ups that is a different matter. But as we say, all speculation, and difficult to discuss beyond the very general.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    edited August 2

    It's awful, but it doesn't surprise me that job applicants typically never hear anything. Businesses had a bad reputation for that before this all kicked off; now that some of them are getting thousands of applicants per vacancy, they're probably totally overwhelmed sifting through the responses - let alone sending out even standard format rejection emails to the unsuccessful.
    This was true decades ago, certainly in the 1980s. It was said that a Guardian advert would typically produce hundreds of applicants, so it was unsurpising that typing and posting rejection letters fell by the wayside. These days, you'd have thought it possible to automate email rejections, or even, and perhaps better, just add a note to the advert that applicants should regard no news as bad news.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,228

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    In Sweden, new-build houses are very highly sought after. They tend to be beautiful (or at least not ugly), but more importantly, the interiors are fantastic: well-thought out, light, spacious, and depending on price category, usually high-end quality. Plus you don’t usually have to bother about repair and maintenance much for the first fifteen years. Cheap as chips on fuel/electric too.

    Swedes have a (slightly odd) aversion to anything old. Including people!
  • It's awful, but it doesn't surprise me that job applicants typically never hear anything. Businesses had a bad reputation for that before this all kicked off; now that some of them are getting thousands of applicants per vacancy, they're probably totally overwhelmed sifting through the responses - let alone sending out even standard format rejection emails to the unsuccessful.
    LinkedIn will send automated rejections if you want it to. It's not much to expect in my view.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    It is alleged behaviour. What is there to say?

    It's not as if we were all rallying to Charlie Elphicke's flag, were we?

    There's a process and if there is evidence he will be charged and if the prosecution convince a jury there'll be a by-election.

    Are we to expect you piled on Nigel Evans when he was charged with rape - and then silent when he was acquitted?
    The problems for the party (as opposed to those directly involved) will start with the questions, who knew what, and when?
    I'm not so sure. They couldn't know of guilt with certainity. If they knew of allegations before the last election, then they could dump him as a candidate (and assume his guilt was nailed on) and look hard-nosed/cynical for doing so. Or they could make sure he wasn't an ongoing risk by having "chaperones".

    Who knew what and when about Salmond? Arguably, nobody until the court case.

    And it is not as if the Government is going to fall if he is found guilty and then loses a by-election some months later. Unlike a year ago, it really is an issue for those involved, but not really for wider politics.

    If anything, it goes to show the wider point that politics seems to attract those who have uncontrolled libidos.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    Sandpit said:

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    I never understand this thing with locals, whether its people parking near their house, or people holidaying near a beach. Did they buy a share of the beach or is it owned by the country?
    Shoddy journalism of course - locals are not one body with one thought, they are individuals - of course some of them might feel this way and some wont
    How many of the complaining ‘locals’ are actually rich Londoner second-home types, who think that their “investment” in the area somehow entitles them to priority on the beach?
    The BBC had a similar story last week:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-53571128

    Two of the people complaining manage holiday lets :lol:
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    It does look like Brighton!

    We were going to go to Cornwall, but the world and his wife have the same idea. Getting a bite to eat or a pint is going to be murder



    Some friends of mine holidayed in Devon and Cornwall last week. They did not mention crowds being a problem, just that many "open" attractions needed to be pre-booked for short slots. I've heard the same is true of museums and galleries in London.
    That makes sense. I just took a look at a couple of the London attractions out of curiosity - the British Museum is still shut, the National Gallery has entry only by tickets pre-booked in advance. No idea re: total availability, or whether one is politely encourage not to meander too slowly around the Covid-friendly one-way system though.

    Cornwall, or at any rate the resorts the media have chosen to cluck over, doesn't look like a lot of fun. Even putting Covid to one side, crowds like that are unpleasant. It isn't what you would call a relaxing atmosphere.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 2,284
    Was this person spoken about as a potential leader? Stop, think, engage brain, don't say it...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,002

    DavidL said:

    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.

    This is one area where the virus and Brexit tie together. "The EU won't let us control our borders" said the Brexiteers. Yet here we are with even Schengen countries having had stronger controls than we have. Its like Patel has been given control but either doesn't know what to do or doesn't dare.

    Quarantine that allows you to get the train home and then go shopping and nobody at all will enforce it or even check up on you is not quarantine at all. There are some serious virus hotspots around the world, and we shouldn't be letting people fly in unchecked and unpoliced when they arrive.

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
    There was an easy alternative as so many other countries have done. Set out a scale of restrictions based on how bad the virus is at any given time. Apply the predetermined restrictions at an appropriate scale. As we've just seen in Victoria if the virus comes back change the status. People know what that is as its been already set out.

    Or do as we did. 5 point scale. Start half way between two points. Never refer to it again and randomly jump up and down with late night tweets.
    I agree very much with that post and was thinking along the same lines. I did wonder why there wasn't by now a published list of categories that have been thoroughly thought out as to what you can and can not do and apply those as appropriate to the country/areas as necessary. Ok it might not be perfect and it will have to be refined as you learn, but that would be a lot better than what appears to be un-thought out plans which when applied everyone goes, 'but what about....'. It is not as though we haven't had time to learn this stuff.

    Also we seem to fluctuate from implementing stuff with oodles of notice (why did we need to have so much notice on masks) and then implement other stuff with no notice whatsoever, which I am not complaining about if necessary but it does all seem rather random.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,901

    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
    Wordpress was updated a couple of months back: did your problems start then? Only @rcs1000 can investigate fully and details are often so vague and inconsistent between different PBers to make it look like a fool's errand. Have you tried the generic advice for these sorts of problems -- Is your browser up-to-date (menu > help > about...)? Have you cleared its cache and pb/Vanilla-related cookies? Have you tried a different browser? Are things different if you disable all browser extensions? If you click on the padlock or "not secure" message, does anything interesting appear? If you can use your browser's developer tools, do they flag any errors? Have you tried sacrificing a small mammal?
    Thanks for the info, might try it if I get time. Our spaniel is looking quite nervous right now.

    It's not that big a deal, just a bit inconvenient.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    It's awful, but it doesn't surprise me that job applicants typically never hear anything. Businesses had a bad reputation for that before this all kicked off; now that some of them are getting thousands of applicants per vacancy, they're probably totally overwhelmed sifting through the responses - let alone sending out even standard format rejection emails to the unsuccessful.
    LinkedIn will send automated rejections if you want it to. It's not much to expect in my view.
    Ah right. I last changed employer in 2004, so am clearly somewhat behind the curve when it comes to these innovations.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,428
    edited August 2
    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    While he is under investigation, it would be appropriate to suspend the whip. Or do you think somebody under investigation for allegations of this nature would be allowed to attend their place of work while being investigated?*

    I think the reason it hasn’t been done, however, is that that would inevitably publicly identify who it is, so I am guessing the police or lawyers might have advised patience. After all, Parliament is in recess, so there is time to make a decision before it matters.

    *Yes, I know that can’t be prevented, but he could be prevented from attending meetings where colleagues of his accuser might be present.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    edited August 2
    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.

    This is one area where the virus and Brexit tie together. "The EU won't let us control our borders" said the Brexiteers. Yet here we are with even Schengen countries having had stronger controls than we have. Its like Patel has been given control but either doesn't know what to do or doesn't dare.

    Quarantine that allows you to get the train home and then go shopping and nobody at all will enforce it or even check up on you is not quarantine at all. There are some serious virus hotspots around the world, and we shouldn't be letting people fly in unchecked and unpoliced when they arrive.

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
    There was an easy alternative as so many other countries have done. Set out a scale of restrictions based on how bad the virus is at any given time. Apply the predetermined restrictions at an appropriate scale. As we've just seen in Victoria if the virus comes back change the status. People know what that is as its been already set out.

    Or do as we did. 5 point scale. Start half way between two points. Never refer to it again and randomly jump up and down with late night tweets.
    I agree very much with that post and was thinking along the same lines. I did wonder why there wasn't by now a published list of categories that have been thoroughly thought out as to what you can and can not do and apply those as appropriate to the country/areas as necessary. Ok it might not be perfect and it will have to be refined as you learn, but that would be a lot better than what appears to be un-thought out plans which when applied everyone goes, 'but what about....'. It is not as though we haven't had time to learn this stuff.

    Also we seem to fluctuate from implementing stuff with oodles of notice (why did we need to have so much notice on masks) and then implement other stuff with no notice whatsoever, which I am not complaining about if necessary but it does all seem rather random.
    The things being implemented with notice are things that require positive actions from affected people (get ready to open your workplace, go buy a mask)

    The things implemented at short notice generally require no action or negative action (stay home, don’t meet with people, close your business).
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,012
    Too bad she didn’t get the leadership. I’m sure she wouldn’t have been able to resist saying that if she was leader.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649
    Alistair said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.
    .

    If you think disabled people (especially disabled people without a very visually obvious disability) receiving verbal and physical abuse is some kind of new thing then you have lived a very sheltered life.
    No I don't, but I do think anti-social media has made all of these problems worse. That's all.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 19,692
    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,901

    OllyT said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    Frankly there really is something slightly odd about people who can get so hysterical about being required to wear a mask when going into a shop. I can quite see why some people don't think it makes much difference either way but frothing about it day in day out is something else. I really do wonder what your agenda is.
    The overly passionate views on masks seems to apply both ways imo. Perhaps we are all a bit stressed due a particularly malign virus.
    I'm not sure it does. The vast majority of people comply with the mask wearing regulations with varying degrees of enthusiasm. A very small minority are vociferously anti-mask (the usual suspects, Katie Hopkins, Toby Young, Peter Hitchens),

    People such as myself only get angry when people like Contrarian and State-go-away relentlessly spend their time trying to undermine the use of masks, frequently posting misinformation. I genuinely wonder what their agenda is because it goes way beyond being asked to wear a mask in enclosed public space.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,493
    alex_ said:

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    Given the only discussion at this stage would involve speculating about who it is, and doing so could put OGH in great legal hot water, probably for the best, don't you think.
    Everyone knows who it is by now anyway.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
    Mark, that is what happens when you have shallow clowns who use focus groups to decide policy. Maybe they ought to ignore the media and start to do their job.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,970

    Sandpit said:

    PB Tories oddly silent on Tory MP's alleged behaviour

    There’s genuinely nothing to say.

    The police haven’t named him as he hasn’t been charged, and I’m sure Mike wouldn’t be happy if we did on here. Going into too many details could help identify him and by association the victim. The alleged behaviour is of course terrible, but we don’t know how much evidence exists at this stage.

    He is entitled to due process, and the complainant is entitled to anonymity.
    It wouldn't be the same response if it was Labour (not from you, your post is very balanced)
    What was the response to the Alex Salmond matter?
    A great deal of voyeuristic speculation as I recall.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    According to the seaside connoisseurs on that thread, Cornwall is looking suspiciously like Brighton.

    isam said:

    Cornwall looking like the place not to go this summer

    Um, is that a picture of Brighton?
    It does look like Brighton!

    We were going to go to Cornwall, but the world and his wife have the same idea. Getting a bite to eat or a pint is going to be murder



    Some friends of mine holidayed in Devon and Cornwall last week. They did not mention crowds being a problem, just that many "open" attractions needed to be pre-booked for short slots. I've heard the same is true of museums and galleries in London.
    That makes sense. I just took a look at a couple of the London attractions out of curiosity - the British Museum is still shut, the National Gallery has entry only by tickets pre-booked in advance. No idea re: total availability, or whether one is politely encourage not to meander too slowly around the Covid-friendly one-way system though.

    Cornwall, or at any rate the resorts the media have chosen to cluck over, doesn't look like a lot of fun. Even putting Covid to one side, crowds like that are unpleasant. It isn't what you would call a relaxing atmosphere.
    Parking in Dartmouth is perenially a git. It was made much worse by the earlier suspension of the park and ride. Small pretty towns in nice weather, with a big influx of visitors, are always messy - virus or no.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
    If he’s charged, he’ll likely be named by the police.

    If he’s kept anonymous for reasons of identifying the victim, and given the nature of the offences, he’ll likely be remanded in custody awaiting trial, with the full contempt notice sent to the media. The whips won’t need to do anything if he’s in the clink.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837
    edited August 2

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
    Usual one law for the Tories and their chums, they were not so particular re Alex Salmond, wall to wall for weeks and long long before any charges.
    PS: Fake charges at that
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,365
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    While he is under investigation, it would be appropriate to suspend the whip. Or do you think somebody under investigation for allegations of this nature would be allowed to attend their place of work while being investigated?*

    I think the reason it hasn’t been done, however, is that that would inevitably publicly identify who it is, so I am guessing the police or lawyers might have advised patience. After all, Parliament is in recess, so there is time to make a decision before it matters.

    *Yes, I know that can’t be prevented, but he could be prevented from attending meetings where colleagues of his accuser might be present.
    An allegation is just that, there is no charge and nothing close to a conviction. Naming the accused would be subjecting them to trial by media and potentially prejudice any jury in a court case should charges be brought. If the police have seen fit not to name the accused then why should the Conservative party?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,970
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,002
    Sandpit said:

    kjh said:

    DavidL said:

    I really despair of the government's attitude to international travel and quarantine. It is beyond irrational.

    This is one area where the virus and Brexit tie together. "The EU won't let us control our borders" said the Brexiteers. Yet here we are with even Schengen countries having had stronger controls than we have. Its like Patel has been given control but either doesn't know what to do or doesn't dare.

    Quarantine that allows you to get the train home and then go shopping and nobody at all will enforce it or even check up on you is not quarantine at all. There are some serious virus hotspots around the world, and we shouldn't be letting people fly in unchecked and unpoliced when they arrive.

    malcolmg said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    If only the clowns had a plan rather than constant knee jerks
    Those "constant knee jerks" are in response to a media constantly screaming "why haven't you done x y z yet?" Don't do it? Clowns. Do it? Knee jerks.
    There was an easy alternative as so many other countries have done. Set out a scale of restrictions based on how bad the virus is at any given time. Apply the predetermined restrictions at an appropriate scale. As we've just seen in Victoria if the virus comes back change the status. People know what that is as its been already set out.

    Or do as we did. 5 point scale. Start half way between two points. Never refer to it again and randomly jump up and down with late night tweets.
    I agree very much with that post and was thinking along the same lines. I did wonder why there wasn't by now a published list of categories that have been thoroughly thought out as to what you can and can not do and apply those as appropriate to the country/areas as necessary. Ok it might not be perfect and it will have to be refined as you learn, but that would be a lot better than what appears to be un-thought out plans which when applied everyone goes, 'but what about....'. It is not as though we haven't had time to learn this stuff.

    Also we seem to fluctuate from implementing stuff with oodles of notice (why did we need to have so much notice on masks) and then implement other stuff with no notice whatsoever, which I am not complaining about if necessary but it does all seem rather random.
    The things being implemented with notice are things that require positive actions from affected people (get ready to open your workplace, go buy a mask)

    The things implemented at short notice generally require no action or negative action (stay home, don’t meet with people, close your business).
    I am aware of of that being the reason re buying a mask for instances, but really how much notice did we need and of course alternative face covering could have applied so really no notice was required. Yet some of the short notice stuff had devastating consequences (and if necessary then fine).

    So it would have been useful if there was a published plan for say amending the quarantine status on a country so that people planning on booking a holiday were aware of the consequences.

    Although it shouldn't have been, it did seem to be a shock for those booking for Spain and those there, so you could argue it was there own stupidity, but a heads up would have been useful.

    Again it is not as if now we haven't had time to do this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 24,529
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    There is no doubt that masks also do some good. A person with a cough, for example, can exhale virus laden particles a considerable distance and is a hazard to others. A mask reduces that risk, unquestionably.
    It may be that the element of caution and inhibition of interaction with others is a good thing right now.
    I just don't believe that this is simple or straightforward. When I am out in shops I wear a mask because the law requires it. I think people are still entitled to query whether that law is particularly sensible.
    There’s an increasing body of evidence that suggests that mask wearing has at the very least some utility (and what limited data we have - there’s a recent paper from Asia where they reviewed many hours of CCTV data - is that mask wearing doesn’t increase face touching at all.)

    I don’t particularly like wearing a mask either, but it seems to me one of only two interventions (along with test/track/trace) that might keep things relatively open until we have a vaccine.
    And also the best chance I have of not getting infected, which prospect I’m old enough not to be entirely sanguine about.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,428
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    While he is under investigation, it would be appropriate to suspend the whip. Or do you think somebody under investigation for allegations of this nature would be allowed to attend their place of work while being investigated?*

    I think the reason it hasn’t been done, however, is that that would inevitably publicly identify who it is, so I am guessing the police or lawyers might have advised patience. After all, Parliament is in recess, so there is time to make a decision before it matters.

    *Yes, I know that can’t be prevented, but he could be prevented from attending meetings where colleagues of his accuser might be present.
    An allegation is just that, there is no charge and nothing close to a conviction. Naming the accused would be subjecting them to trial by media and potentially prejudice any jury in a court case should charges be brought. If the police have seen fit not to name the accused then why should the Conservative party?
    That is however the reason why it may not have been done, which is theoretically separate from the principle of withdrawing the whip.

    Or to put it another way - do you think the whip should not be suspended in the event of investigations being carried out? If not, why not?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,428
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
    Usual one law for the Tories and their chums, they were not so particular re Alex Salmond, wall to wall for weeks and long long before any charges.
    PS: Fake charges at that
    As I recall, he admitted quite a few of the charges, but he averred (and the jury agreed) that they didn’t amount to criminal offences.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 2,002
    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
    Wordpress was updated a couple of months back: did your problems start then? Only @rcs1000 can investigate fully and details are often so vague and inconsistent between different PBers to make it look like a fool's errand. Have you tried the generic advice for these sorts of problems -- Is your browser up-to-date (menu > help > about...)? Have you cleared its cache and pb/Vanilla-related cookies? Have you tried a different browser? Are things different if you disable all browser extensions? If you click on the padlock or "not secure" message, does anything interesting appear? If you can use your browser's developer tools, do they flag any errors? Have you tried sacrificing a small mammal?
    Thanks for the info, might try it if I get time. Our spaniel is looking quite nervous right now.

    It's not that big a deal, just a bit inconvenient.
    As of a week or so ago PB is pretty well un-useable on my phone (at least for posting). Can't get in. Tried everything suggested.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 1,757

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    In Sweden, new-build houses are very highly sought after. They tend to be beautiful (or at least not ugly), but more importantly, the interiors are fantastic: well-thought out, light, spacious, and depending on price category, usually high-end quality. Plus you don’t usually have to bother about repair and maintenance much for the first fifteen years. Cheap as chips on fuel/electric too.

    Swedes have a (slightly odd) aversion to anything old. Including people!
    You mean the film "Midsommar" was a documentary?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,970
    It seems that for some outlets even referring to the accused person as a Tory mp and former minister is a step too far.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 10,296
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
    If he’s charged, he’ll likely be named by the police.

    If he’s kept anonymous for reasons of identifying the victim, and given the nature of the offences, he’ll likely be remanded in custody awaiting trial, with the full contempt notice sent to the media. The whips won’t need to do anything if he’s in the clink.
    The media can narrow it down a fair bit as it is - 'male - in his 50s - ex-Minister'.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,493
    If things get much shittier Johnson will order the restart of Spitfire production at Castle Bromwich to raise the country's morale.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 7,005
    "Millions of over-50s could be told to stay at home to avoid second nationwide lockdown

    People between 50 and 70 could be given personalised risk ratings, taking into account factors like age and medical history."

    https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-millions-of-over-50s-could-be-told-to-stay-at-home-to-avoid-second-nationwide-lockdown-12040780
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082

    And meanwhile, as the wetting over masks and crowded beaches and everything else continues, the total number of Covid patients in hospital keeps trickling downwards - and has decreased by almost 50% since July 4th. It's still too soon to be sure of the impact of reopening the gyms, but there's certainly no evidence there to suggest that other (non-mask enforcing) social venues like pubs have kick-started a fresh wave of transmission. Isolated cases where people have taken the piss with social distancing or just been plain unlucky? Yes. A nationwide plague resurgence? No.

    Masks may or may not do any good in non-clinical settings. People gathering at seaside resorts has happened so often with no measurable consequence that we can probably just forget about that now.

    The big test will be when the schools come back - and, on that subject, do we think that the Government will come down swiftly in favour of masks for secondary pupils in England, or will it prevaricate until five minutes before they're due to reopen? Has there been any movement on this one way or the other in Scotland?

    The ratio of new infections to new hospital patients for England is interesting:

    28/07 705:63
    21/07 688:82
    14/07 644:116
    07/07 555:141
    30/06 572:201
    23/06 732:262
    16/06 992:334
    09/06 1057:402
    02/06 1353:491
    26/05 1464:589
  • tlg86 said:

    Too bad she didn’t get the leadership. I’m sure she wouldn’t have been able to resist saying that if she was leader.
    She would have been a dreadful leader. The leadership debates showed her lack of temperament and experience
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,595
    Dura_Ace said:

    If things get much shittier Johnson will order the restart of Spitfire production at Castle Bromwich to raise the country's morale.
    Ah, as chronicled by Henshaw the test pilot in Sigh for a Merlin ...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    justin124 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    Doing so would identify him though, wouldn't (Bleedin' obvious statement!)
    If he’s charged, he’ll likely be named by the police.

    If he’s kept anonymous for reasons of identifying the victim, and given the nature of the offences, he’ll likely be remanded in custody awaiting trial, with the full contempt notice sent to the media. The whips won’t need to do anything if he’s in the clink.
    The media can narrow it down a fair bit as it is - 'male - in his 50s - ex-Minister'.
    Yes, you can get it down to half a dozen pretty quickly, and from there only a little more digging required to work it out. Media outlets are also seltively omitting details, but collectively they might as well have just printed the name.

    Surprisingly, a quick look around foreign media this morning didn’t come up with anything except republished wire stories.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,365
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    While he is under investigation, it would be appropriate to suspend the whip. Or do you think somebody under investigation for allegations of this nature would be allowed to attend their place of work while being investigated?*

    I think the reason it hasn’t been done, however, is that that would inevitably publicly identify who it is, so I am guessing the police or lawyers might have advised patience. After all, Parliament is in recess, so there is time to make a decision before it matters.

    *Yes, I know that can’t be prevented, but he could be prevented from attending meetings where colleagues of his accuser might be present.
    An allegation is just that, there is no charge and nothing close to a conviction. Naming the accused would be subjecting them to trial by media and potentially prejudice any jury in a court case should charges be brought. If the police have seen fit not to name the accused then why should the Conservative party?
    That is however the reason why it may not have been done, which is theoretically separate from the principle of withdrawing the whip.

    Or to put it another way - do you think the whip should not be suspended in the event of investigations being carried out? If not, why not?
    No, it shouldn't. I wouldn't withdraw the whip until conviction if there is one. Anything else prejudices the process, "even his own party thinks he's guilty" etc...

    Allegations aren't in and of themselves proof of wrongdoing and this rush to condemn people who are accused before hearing the evidence is a very worrying societal change.
  • Indyref2 movement founder claims campaign damaged by anti-English racists who 'joked about colour of his skin'

    Manny Singh was instrumental in forming the All Under One Banner (AUOB) movement but left the organisation last year over bitter infighting.

    https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/indyref2-campaign-damaged-anti-english-22455165
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,970
    Dura_Ace said:

    If things get much shittier Johnson will order the restart of Spitfire production at Castle Bromwich to raise the country's morale.
    With Dyson involved no doubt.

    Oversold, overpaid and built over there in Singapore.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,595
    edited August 2
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    That men shouldn’t be allowed due process?

    If he’s charged with an offence, I’m sure the whips will suspend him.
    While he is under investigation, it would be appropriate to suspend the whip. Or do you think somebody under investigation for allegations of this nature would be allowed to attend their place of work while being investigated?*

    I think the reason it hasn’t been done, however, is that that would inevitably publicly identify who it is, so I am guessing the police or lawyers might have advised patience. After all, Parliament is in recess, so there is time to make a decision before it matters.

    *Yes, I know that can’t be prevented, but he could be prevented from attending meetings where colleagues of his accuser might be present.
    An allegation is just that, there is no charge and nothing close to a conviction. Naming the accused would be subjecting them to trial by media and potentially prejudice any jury in a court case should charges be brought. If the police have seen fit not to name the accused then why should the Conservative party?
    That is however the reason why it may not have been done, which is theoretically separate from the principle of withdrawing the whip.

    Or to put it another way - do you think the whip should not be suspended in the event of investigations being carried out? If not, why not?
    No, it shouldn't. I wouldn't withdraw the whip until conviction if there is one. Anything else prejudices the process, "even his own party thinks he's guilty" etc...

    Allegations aren't in and of themselves proof of wrongdoing and this rush to condemn people who are accused before hearing the evidence is a very worrying societal change.
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