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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some Trump (sore) loser bets

SystemSystem Posts: 12,128
edited August 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some Trump (sore) loser bets

StarSports have some markets up on what Trump might do about the 2020 election.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    They don't show up until someone posts.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,928
    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Does "publicly announced" include say on Twitter?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Yes, but I have to use an old Android 7 tablet, Android 10 one won't let me log in. Anyway first world problem, and here we all are.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    They don't show up until someone posts.
    Thks didn't know that
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Can I have the other side of the 8/1 they’re offering on a postponed election? Should be more like 80/1 as it needs Congress to all agree to it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Can I have the other side of the 8/1 they’re offering on a postponed election? Should be more like 80/1 as it needs Congress to all agree to it.

    Very unreasonable of you to pilfer the Christmas fund
  • USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
  • USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Interesting article about the South China Morning Post, which gives a decent idea of how much trust to put in its reporting:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/08/scmp-hong-kong-china-media/614719/
    It’s not entirely a government mouthpiece - it’s website is still blocked in mainland China - but it needs to read with deep scepticism.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,774
    edited August 2020
    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. B2, very sad news to hear. Hope it dies down quickly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
    Does this account ring true ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/harris-allies-biden-call-dodd-389848
    Seems a bit too detailed to be uninformed speculation.
  • Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
    Does this account ring true ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/harris-allies-biden-call-dodd-389848
    Seems a bit too detailed to be uninformed speculation.
    Even if true, and it probably is, what does it amount to? That there has been lobbying both for and against Harris? Surely true, but true of the other contenders as well. Indeed, the article mentions this follows lobbying for Bass.
  • Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
    Does this account ring true ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/harris-allies-biden-call-dodd-389848
    Seems a bit too detailed to be uninformed speculation.
    Pretty typical. Home state politicos (and journos) are ALWAYS touting home state favorite daughters and sons. For one thing, it's a cheap way of currying favor with the favored one,

    Interesting that Great Bear Republic has not one but TWO favorite daughters. And GOP appears to be focusing it's guns right now on US Representative Karen Bass.

    HOWEVER my point remains - all we see of this "race" are flashes in the tunnel - until someone finally emerges.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    China seeks to extend its repression worldwide:

    Hong Kong 'seeking arrest' of fleeing activists
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-53616583
    ... Chinese state TV network CCTV said six people were wanted on suspicion of inciting secession or colluding with foreign forces - both crimes can be punished with up to life in prison under the new security law....

    ... Samuel Chu, a US citizen. He is the son of Reverend Chu Yiu Ming, a Baptist minister who was one of the founders of the 2014 "Umbrella Movement".
    Mr Chu runs the Washington DC-based Hong Kong Democracy Council and said he last visited Hong Kong in November 2019.
    "I might be the first non-Chinese citizen to be targeted, but I will not be the last. If I am targeted, any American and any citizen of any nation who speaks out for Hong Kong can, and will be, too," he said.
    The national security law carries extraterritorial provisions that say anyone, including non-Hong Kong residents, can be charged under it...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
    Does this account ring true ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/harris-allies-biden-call-dodd-389848
    Seems a bit too detailed to be uninformed speculation.
    Even if true, and it probably is, what does it amount to? That there has been lobbying both for and against Harris? Surely true, but true of the other contenders as well. Indeed, the article mentions this follows lobbying for Bass.
    It’s not the lobbying - rather the dubious premises “too ambitious” etc, on which some of it has been based.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    USA Dem VP nominee prices on Betfair. We now seem to be back where we were a few days ago. The announcement, which was expected this week, will probably not now be made until next week. The convention follows the week after.
    https://apnews.com/fe694f1775ca46a79335db5f24ee0817

    Kamala Harris: 2.42
    Susan Rice: 4.1
    Karen Bass: 8.2
    Tammy Duckworth: 11
    Elizabeth Warren: 14
    Val Demings: 29
    Gretchen Whitmer: 44
    Michelle Obama: 46
    Keisha Lance Bottoms: 70
    Michelle Lujan Grisham: 100
    Hillary Clinton: 110
    Barack Obama: 400
    Tammy Baldwin: 500
    Stacey Abrams: 510

    Betting on VP is like betting on race that takes place in a tunnel, where you catch brief glimpses of competitors once & a while through random air vents, and don't really know what's going on until the winner emerges first from the end of the tunnel.
    Does this account ring true ?
    https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/31/harris-allies-biden-call-dodd-389848
    Seems a bit too detailed to be uninformed speculation.
    Pretty typical. Home state politicos (and journos) are ALWAYS touting home state favorite daughters and sons. For one thing, it's a cheap way of currying favor with the favored one,

    Interesting that Great Bear Republic has not one but TWO favorite daughters. And GOP appears to be focusing it's guns right now on US Representative Karen Bass.

    HOWEVER my point remains - all we see of this "race" are flashes in the tunnel - until someone finally emerges.
    I’d agree with that assessment. The wild gyrations in the prices and identification of the second favourite(s) bear that out.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,123
    Unfortunate timing, I'd suggest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/end-the-prejudice-against-travellers-police-chief

    Speaking after the three killers of PC Andrew Harper were jailed for manslaughter, Janette McCormick, deputy chief constable at the College of Policing, said attention was required to tackle the inequality and job prospects facing Travellers.

    “There seems to be a deep-seated and accepted prejudice that demonises people from the community. You wouldn’t call any other ethnicity inherently criminal,” said McCormick, also the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    “There is no evidence to suggest we have a disproportionately high crime rate around Traveller sites,” she said.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    edited August 2020
    Betting Post

    F1: I'll write this up properly when less sleepy but Bottas is 5.25 with boost on Ladbrokes to win. Each way that's a third the odd stop 2 which is too long.

    Also, with boost, Leclerc is 6.5 for a podium. If you want to you can hedge that right now on Betfair at 5.8 for zero risk and green if he gets it. I'll probably set up a hedge at 3 or suchlike instead.

    Edited extra bit: does look like no penalty for Leclerc but do check for yourself.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    edited August 2020

    Betting Post

    F1: I'll write this up properly when less sleepy but Bottas is 5.25 with boost on Ladbrokes to win. Each way that's a third the odd stop 2 which is too long.

    Also, with boost, Leclerc is 6.5 for a podium. If you want to you can hedge that right now on Betfair at 5.8 for zero risk and green if he gets it. I'll probably set up a hedge at 3 or suchlike instead.

    Edited extra bit: does look like no penalty for Leclerc but do check for yourself.

    No penalty for Leclerc
    https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2020 British Grand Prix - Decision - Car 16 - Alleged unsafe release.pdf

    Usually they ask the team for a large monetary contribution to the FIA Christmas Party Fund for these, but it seems that even the stewards are feeling sorry for the weekend Ferrari are having!

    I’m with you on Bottas being too long for the win, weight of British money going on Lewis stortening his price.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,796
    edited August 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    Morning Donald. With the hint being about the forthcoming election will you give us a clue about what you will do now that you are losing so heavily?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,314
    Vettel starts 10th because he had a time deleted in Q3, for track limits. He would have been 7th otherwise.

    (Back to lurking).
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/saletan/status/1286493439312494599

    He sounds like a nasty piece of work - even his family seem to have disowned him. There was an interesting piece in the article that says Miller sees Trump as a "useful idiot" to further a white supremacist political agenda. "Glosser describes his nephew as “an ambitious kid” who “for some reason decided to become infatuated with the idea of white supremacy” and who has been obsessed with gaining power and influence."

    In other news, I see that the KKK is backing Trump for 2020 and they want a Fox News man to replace Pence.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/saletan/status/1286493439312494599

    He sounds like a nasty piece of work - even his family seem to have disowned him. There was an interesting piece in the article that says Miller sees Trump as a "useful idiot" to further a white supremacist political agenda. "Glosser describes his nephew as “an ambitious kid” who “for some reason decided to become infatuated with the idea of white supremacy” and who has been obsessed with gaining power and influence."

    In other news, I see that the KKK is backing Trump for 2020 and they want a Fox News man to replace Pence.
    Given that Trump Fox everything up anyway, that would be wasted effort.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    tlg86 said:

    Unfortunate timing, I'd suggest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/end-the-prejudice-against-travellers-police-chief

    Speaking after the three killers of PC Andrew Harper were jailed for manslaughter, Janette McCormick, deputy chief constable at the College of Policing, said attention was required to tackle the inequality and job prospects facing Travellers.

    “There seems to be a deep-seated and accepted prejudice that demonises people from the community. You wouldn’t call any other ethnicity inherently criminal,” said McCormick, also the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    “There is no evidence to suggest we have a disproportionately high crime rate around Traveller sites,” she said.

    The problem is perfectly encapsulated in this recent report of mass destruction from Dorset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53210397

    Councils don't create a sufficient number of pitches to provide all their travellers with places to go - but then again, when they do stuff like this it's small wonder that they provoke furious Nimbyism. Would you want this going on regularly in your backyard?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Sandpit, ah, thanks, I didn't realise that.

    The Ferrari isn't fantastic but it's in relatively good shape. Red Bull's faster but seems a little more fragile/twitchy.

    Feel a bit sorry for Albon.

    I think Red Bull paid the price for their overt Vettel favouritism with Ricciardo's departure, as he didn't fancy being a number two driver.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited August 2020
    27th. Not my day.

    A post about political betting on political betting, and I want to talk about cabbages.

    That 5km in Oz looks serious; there are probably plenty of places around Melbourne where there is hardly anything with 5km.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,549
    edited August 2020
    Speaking of races . . .

    EASTBOUND AND DOWN
    Jerry Reed, Dick Feller

    East bound and down, loaded up and truckin'
    We're gonna do what they say can't be done
    We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there
    I'm east bound, just watch old Bandit run

    Keep your foot hard on the pedal, son never mind them brakes
    Let it all hang out, 'cause we got a run to make
    The boys are thirsty in Atlanta and there's beer in Texarkana
    And we'll bring it back no matter what it takes

    East bound and down, loaded up and truckin'
    We're gonna do what they say can't be done
    We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there
    I'm east bound, just watch old Bandit run

    Old Smokey's got his ears on, he's hot on your trail
    And he ain't gonna rest 'til you're in jail
    So you gotta dodge him, you've gotta duck him
    You gotta keep that diesel truckin'
    Just put that hammer down and give it hell

    East bound and down, loaded up and truckin'
    Oh, we gonna do what they say can't be done
    We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there
    I'm east bound, just watch old Bandit run
  • Still not able to sign in on my tablet and search comes up with Yahoo Japan
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    FFS, you’re not going to say that this spike has happened because they’re wearing masks, are you?
    Irish joke

    Paddy: I am thinking of buying a dog. A labrador maybe.

    Nerys: a dangerous breed, Paddy, have you not seen how many of their owners go blind?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    tlg86 said:

    Unfortunate timing, I'd suggest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/end-the-prejudice-against-travellers-police-chief

    Speaking after the three killers of PC Andrew Harper were jailed for manslaughter, Janette McCormick, deputy chief constable at the College of Policing, said attention was required to tackle the inequality and job prospects facing Travellers.

    “There seems to be a deep-seated and accepted prejudice that demonises people from the community. You wouldn’t call any other ethnicity inherently criminal,” said McCormick, also the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    “There is no evidence to suggest we have a disproportionately high crime rate around Traveller sites,” she said.

    The problem is perfectly encapsulated in this recent report of mass destruction from Dorset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53210397

    Councils don't create a sufficient number of pitches to provide all their travellers with places to go - but then again, when they do stuff like this it's small wonder that they provoke furious Nimbyism. Would you want this going on regularly in your backyard?
    Perhaps if the new site for Travellers was conveniently located near the municipal tip ... ? ;)
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited August 2020
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    twitter.com/saletan/status/1286493439312494599

    He sounds like a nasty piece of work - even his family seem to have disowned him. There was an interesting piece in the article that says Miller sees Trump as a "useful idiot" to further a white supremacist political agenda. "Glosser describes his nephew as “an ambitious kid” who “for some reason decided to become infatuated with the idea of white supremacy” and who has been obsessed with gaining power and influence."

    In other news, I see that the KKK is backing Trump for 2020 and they want a Fox News man to replace Pence.
    Given that Trump Fox everything up anyway, that would be wasted effort.
    My personal view is that anyone receiving a KKK endorsement must be a racist or at least an enabler of racism. I cannot imagine the KKK ever endorsing anti-racists, feminists or anyone for whom equality is a priority.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MattW said:

    27th. Not my day.

    A post about political betting on political betting, and I want to talk about cabbages.

    That 5km in Oz looks serious; there are probably plenty of places around Melbourne where there is hardly anything with 5km.

    My purple sprouting broccoli has just germinated if that helps.

    I recreated a vegetable garden from lawn at the start of lockdown. I was worried that things would get back to normal and I would let the garden revert to grass, but that looks less of an issue just now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    Morning Donald. With the hint being about the forthcoming election will you give us a clue about what you will do now that you are losing so heavily?
    Republicans are coming round to the idea:
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/republicans-masks-coronavirus-polls.html
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    edited August 2020

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
    With the masks they have an outbreak.

    Without the masks they would be stacking bodies in piles.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then ;)
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,661
    The World Health Organisation has urged countries not to reimpose national lockdowns in an attempt to stem the spread of Covid-19 due to the health, social and economic repercussions.

    In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, who helps lead the WHO’s pandemic response team as the head of the emerging diseases unit, said that countries should instead adopt localised strategies.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/exclusive-top-disease-detective-warns-against-return-national/
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    tlg86 said:

    Unfortunate timing, I'd suggest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/end-the-prejudice-against-travellers-police-chief

    Speaking after the three killers of PC Andrew Harper were jailed for manslaughter, Janette McCormick, deputy chief constable at the College of Policing, said attention was required to tackle the inequality and job prospects facing Travellers.

    “There seems to be a deep-seated and accepted prejudice that demonises people from the community. You wouldn’t call any other ethnicity inherently criminal,” said McCormick, also the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    “There is no evidence to suggest we have a disproportionately high crime rate around Traveller sites,” she said.

    The problem is perfectly encapsulated in this recent report of mass destruction from Dorset: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53210397

    Councils don't create a sufficient number of pitches to provide all their travellers with places to go - but then again, when they do stuff like this it's small wonder that they provoke furious Nimbyism. Would you want this going on regularly in your backyard?
    It is an alternative lifestyle and culture that does not neatly fit in to the mainstream of private land and designated public use spaces . There is a need to compromise by both cultures and tbf most times that compromise happens. As in any area of life the worse behaviour gets amplified on social media and does create fear and prejudice. I dont really knwo a lot about the community but when they did pitch up on a small car park where my daughter took dancing lessons they did not seem unpleasant and i had a chat with one traveller whilst waiting for my daughter to finish . I dont think they left any mess when they left and its just a different lifestyle that is hard to fit into our more mainstream one
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    Morning Donald. With the hint being about the forthcoming election will you give us a clue about what you will do now that you are losing so heavily?
    Republicans are coming round to the idea:
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/republicans-masks-coronavirus-polls.html
    Apparently a Republican Senator/Congressman* who was very anti-mask caught the bug. His staff and other politicians were not too impressed with his expression of freedom.

    * Delete as appropriate
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited August 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    MattW said:

    27th. Not my day.

    A post about political betting on political betting, and I want to talk about cabbages.

    That 5km in Oz looks serious; there are probably plenty of places around Melbourne where there is hardly anything with 5km.

    My purple sprouting broccoli has just germinated if that helps.

    I recreated a vegetable garden from lawn at the start of lockdown. I was worried that things would get back to normal and I would let the garden revert to grass, but that looks less of an issue just now.
    There have been a few more people my way playing with veg patches; I already have some raised beds that I built when mum moved in a few years ago, soft fruit, old fruit trees and things.

    I got some compost in on the day we locked down, and no less (oops!) fewer than 3 neighbours had some to get them going; one has built a brick raised bed that looks like an escapee from Chateau Monty Don.


  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    FFS, you’re not going to say that this spike has happened because they’re wearing masks, are you?
    Irish joke

    Paddy: I am thinking of buying a dog. A labrador maybe.

    Nerys: a dangerous breed, Paddy, have you not seen how many of their owners go blind?
    Ahem!!!!! :angry:

    I am now officially outraged.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    If you can log in there, which a lot of people can’t.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
    With the masks they have an outbreak.

    Without the masks they would be stacking bodies in piles.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then ;)
    No names, but there were those on here yesterday claiming Johnson wilfully destroyed the economy by his "illiberal" lockdown.

    In fact Trump was held up as a beacon of best practice!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Away, glad that the travellers you encountered were so civilised. Last time some rolled up around here they occupied part of a farmer's field, beside a school (popular dog-walking route). Human excrement was amongst the charming gifts they left behind.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190
    edited August 2020

    Mr. Away, glad that the travellers you encountered were so civilised. Last time some rolled up around here they occupied part of a farmer's field, beside a school (popular dog-walking route). Human excrement was amongst the charming gifts they left behind.

    An anecdotal negative stereotype. Just what we need on this fine morning.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
    With the masks they have an outbreak.

    Without the masks they would be stacking bodies in piles.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then ;)
    No names, but there were those on here yesterday claiming Johnson wilfully destroyed the economy by his "illiberal" lockdown.

    In fact Trump was held up as a beacon of best practice!
    I think there is much to be said for making Trump into a beacon.

    After all, if he was set on fire it would limit the damage he does.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    geoffw said:

    The World Health Organisation has urged countries not to reimpose national lockdowns in an attempt to stem the spread of Covid-19 due to the health, social and economic repercussions.

    In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph Dr Maria Van Kerkhove, who helps lead the WHO’s pandemic response team as the head of the emerging diseases unit, said that countries should instead adopt localised strategies.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/exclusive-top-disease-detective-warns-against-return-national/
    Whilst the government gets lots of criticism, often quite rightly, I think the recent restrictions on home gatherings are spot on, they are a significant driver of infection growth out here in Spain. They do need to smarten up the implementation though to not distract from the message.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513

    Nigelb said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    Morning Donald. With the hint being about the forthcoming election will you give us a clue about what you will do now that you are losing so heavily?
    Republicans are coming round to the idea:
    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/07/republicans-masks-coronavirus-polls.html
    Apparently a Republican Senator/Congressman* who was very anti-mask caught the bug. His staff and other politicians were not too impressed with his expression of freedom.

    * Delete as appropriate
    Congressman Gohmert.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
    With the masks they have an outbreak.

    Without the masks they would be stacking bodies in piles.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then ;)
    No names, but there were those on here yesterday claiming Johnson wilfully destroyed the economy by his "illiberal" lockdown.

    In fact Trump was held up as a beacon of best practice!
    I think there is much to be said for making Trump into a beacon.

    After all, if he was set on fire it would limit the damage he does.
    "Teach a man to make fire and he is warm for the night. Set him on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life" - one of Terry Pratchett's characters
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Pete, a negative experience.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Some years ago I was working in North Devon. I was surprised to see in Appledore/Westward Ho! a modest Canary Wharf style lone mini-skyscraper. Incongruous in the extreme.

    I suspect in future more incongruous buildings will slip through the net.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Mr. Pete, a negative experience.

    Of which doubtless there are many. I could give you a positive one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Which illustrates the negatives of picking someone less know.
    At least with someone like Harris, it’s more likely the negatives have already been aired.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Of course.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,362

    IanB2 said:

    Breaking: Victoria declares state of disaster and nightly curfew for Melbourne

    Hundreds of ‘mystery cases’ have forced decision in Australian state

    Strict four stage lockdown rules announced, restrictions to last until at least 13 Sept

    There will be additional limits to the four reasons to leave home. You will no longer be able to leave home and go any further away from your home than a 5km radius. You will not be able to be at any point more than 5km away from your home for the purposes of shopping for what you need. Only one person will be able to go shopping once per day and they will need to secure the goods and services that are what you need within a 5km radius. In terms of exercise, recreational activity is now no longer allowed. You will be able to have one hour of exercise, no further than 5km from your home. And there will no longer be able to be groups any bigger than two, regardless of whether they’re from your family or someone else.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then
    A clarion call to the flat-earthers.
    With the masks they have an outbreak.

    Without the masks they would be stacking bodies in piles.

    Mask wearing working a treat there then ;)
    No names, but there were those on here yesterday claiming Johnson wilfully destroyed the economy by his "illiberal" lockdown.

    In fact Trump was held up as a beacon of best practice!
    With his orange top, he'd make a decent Belisha beacon. Although the idea of him flashing regularly....
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,190

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
    Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625829
    ... There are also reports that the Conservative Party's chief whip, Mark Spencer, had been aware of allegations - and previously spoke with the alleged victim.
    According to sources, Mr Spencer had not known the "magnitude" of the allegations....
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146
    Why is PB promoting these daft one-sided betting markets? They are a con.

    A good ground rule is never bet on anything that you cannot lay.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,154
    Nigelb said:

    Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625829
    ... There are also reports that the Conservative Party's chief whip, Mark Spencer, had been aware of allegations - and previously spoke with the alleged victim.
    According to sources, Mr Spencer had not known the "magnitude" of the allegations....

    If that is the case, Mark Spencer is a Reluctant Turkish Conscript.

    Because Johnson will throw him to the wolves to save his own worthless skin.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,700
    Mr. Pete, aye, and nobody would whine about you doing so.

    Mr. B, let's hope justice is done.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited August 2020
    tlg86 said:

    Unfortunate timing, I'd suggest:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/01/end-the-prejudice-against-travellers-police-chief

    Speaking after the three killers of PC Andrew Harper were jailed for manslaughter, Janette McCormick, deputy chief constable at the College of Policing, said attention was required to tackle the inequality and job prospects facing Travellers.

    “There seems to be a deep-seated and accepted prejudice that demonises people from the community. You wouldn’t call any other ethnicity inherently criminal,” said McCormick, also the National Police Chiefs’ Council lead for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers.

    “There is no evidence to suggest we have a disproportionately high crime rate around Traveller sites,” she said.

    This is a little weaselly from the police - and the G, because the quotes seem to be from activists on one side of the debate.

    "There is no evidence" actually means "we choose not to gather any evidence".

    This is a 2010 FOI:

    "Our information is set up and searchable for our policing purposes. ‘Traveller’ is not recorded on our system as an ethnicity or occupation. We would not be permitted to record ‘Traveller’ as a person type due to Human Rights.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/45437/response/115334/attach/4/2010 367 Published Response.pdf

    Interestingly it just changed. From an FOI this year.


    This year 2020 April the Home Office made 18+1, including Gypsy and Irish Traveller a classification for victims, staff, stop / search and offenders a requirement. Prior to that, other than local recording and analysis, there was no ability to compare ethnicity, location and crime at a national level.

    https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/661906/response/1578724/attach/5/122 20 NPCC response letter GRT Statement.doc.pdf

    A question which needs rather more clear thinking abut data collection - I think some crime is linked to ethnicity, even if indirectly, for many different ethnicities. But the issue is when the thinking starts being formed as community -> crime.

    But there are other particular crimes where community (or communities) is an appropriate category for analysis.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    you still advocating euthanasia
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,513
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793
    malcolmg said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    you still advocating euthanasia
    No just getting a life Malcolm
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    edited August 2020

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    There is. Newcastle Council required my estate (or at least the areas visible from the main road) to be in fitting with the rest of the “village” where I live. It looks very nice and not at all “new-buildy”.

    Of course there was a premium on the price because of it - it was more desirable.

    Remember its only the “good” Victorian housing that still stands. The sh*t has been long bulldozed.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Can you point me to a summary?

    The changes to permitted development *for existing dwellings* AIUI seem to be relatively moderate.

    And changes for change of use are probably appropriate given the Corona impact on society, but standards and enforcement are the keys.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Often the way. They introduced a permission in principle route a few years ago with reduced timescales to make a decision (and so in my area reduced timescale for elected cllrs to decide to make a decision rather than officers) but next to nobody utilised the route.

    But establishing the principle does make a big difference, once that's gone the strength of objections to specificities is much less persuasive since if they are nimby objections people cannot help but demonstrate they actually object to anything being approved not just the detail of that application, and if the principal is already there they flounder.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428
    edited August 2020
    MattW said:

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Can you point me to a summary?

    The changes to permitted development *for existing dwellings* AIUI seem to be relatively moderate.

    And changes for change of use are probably appropriate given the Corona impact on society, but standards and enforcement are the keys.
    I’m just going off the BBC News article here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625960.

    It suggests that someone (the civil service?) will divide all land into “growth”, “renewal”, and “protected” categories.

    I assume most, if not all, of the current “Green Belt” will be “protected” so really this scheme is to simply encourage building on brown field sites that nobody wants to build on at present?

    @Cyclefree did you say your husband was a planning barrister? Does he/you have any thoughts on this?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Nigelb said:
    There was talk of a float for ARM as well iirc. An army of armchair stockpickers has its fingers crossed!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Conservative MP arrested on suspicion of rape
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625829
    ... There are also reports that the Conservative Party's chief whip, Mark Spencer, had been aware of allegations - and previously spoke with the alleged victim.
    According to sources, Mr Spencer had not known the "magnitude" of the allegations....

    If that is the case, Mark Spencer is a Reluctant Turkish Conscript.

    Because Johnson will throw him to the wolves to save his own worthless skin.
    Interestingly, iirc there was briefings in last weekend's press that Spencer was viewed as not doing a very good job recently. It was buried in a load of guff about conducting parliament via Zoom is hard, but still interesting.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,793

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    There is. Newcastle Council required my estate (or at least the areas visible from the main road) to be in fitting with the rest of the “village” where I live. It looks very nice and not at all “new-buildy”.

    Of course there was a premium on the price because of it - it was more desirable.

    Remember its only the “good” Victorian housing that still stands. The sh*t has been long bulldozed.
    I generally assume that essentially if you're in an area that's already bland you'd struggle to win if refusing something over design grounds. But many are refused for such grounds.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,401
    Nigelb said:
    Go Susan!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    There is. Newcastle Council required my estate (or at least the areas visible from the main road) to be in fitting with the rest of the “village” where I live. It looks very nice and not at all “new-buildy”.

    Of course there was a premium on the price because of it - it was more desirable.

    Remember its only the “good” Victorian housing that still stands. The sh*t has been long bulldozed.
    I'd slightly disagree with that - there's still plenty of cruddy quickly thrown-up Georgian/Victorian housing in London. Every so often one of them spontaneously falls down when it is not looked after.

    i still chuckle at this cri de coeur from Deborah Orr blaming an "inherent defect" in a Victorian house for a bit that fell off 125 years later, and then blaming the insurance company for pointing out that it was very old.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/25/deborah-orr-roof-collapse-insurance
    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/jun/02/deborah-orr-roof-silent-disaster
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,428

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    There’s a misconception with new builds that because the materials are thin, they are poorly made. They are not. They are built with engineered materials that are not required to be super thick to be strong with good thermal performance.

    There’s a huge misconception in the UK that “brick” and “stone” is good and everything else is bad.

    I couldn’t buy an older property now that I am used to new build thermal performance. It really is night and day.

    Regardless, you are right that there are other issues with design. I’m lucky that I did 2 years worth of research so that my house (built in 2018) actually has very good room proportions, and a double side by side drive - something rare in a new build in my price range.

    You are right to highlight the leasehold problem, but it gets deeper than that. All new build homes are now freehold but with management companys. An arrangement that offers even less rights than leaseholders posses. I’ve wrote quite a few times about it on here but it attracts little interest.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,873

    MattW said:

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Can you point me to a summary?

    The changes to permitted development *for existing dwellings* AIUI seem to be relatively moderate.

    And changes for change of use are probably appropriate given the Corona impact on society, but standards and enforcement are the keys.
    I’m just going off the BBC News article here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625960.

    It suggests that someone (the civil service?) will divide all land into “growth”, “renewal”, and “protected” categories.

    I assume most, if not all, of the current “Green Belt” will be “protected” so really this scheme is to simply encourage building on brown field sites that nobody wants to build on at present?

    @Cyclefree did you say your husband was a planning barrister? Does he/you have any thoughts on this?
    I seem to recall some paper by a wonk on overhauling the planning system, and the chap was hired by no.10, and it involved local councils setting broad policies for zones of types of development but no other role. It was the sort of thing local conservatives would be in mass rebellion over if the government tried it, but perhaps this move came out of discussing it and what could they fer away with at least
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    The Dutch are resisting masks quite strongly as well, apparently, although who can say how long this will last?

    I suspect that the arguments over whether they do more good than harm or more harm than good in non-clinical settings will probably never be resolved adequately. Whatever. My original point wasn't to do with the utility of masks but rather with the way in which they've been mobilized as yet another excuse to abuse people.
  • Why is PB promoting these daft one-sided betting markets? They are a con.

    A good ground rule is never bet on anything that you cannot lay.

    Is English even your first language?

    I'm telling people to avoid these betting markets and find value elsewhere if they think it will happen.

    Terms like 'I’m not touching the 8/1 on the 2020 election not to take place given the constitutional and legal impediments'

    Then there's 'I think I’ll stick to laying Trump over on Betfair, at slightly lower odds of just under 2/1.'

    Finally, 'If you’re tempted to back the 10/1 on Trump pulling out of the 2020 campaign I think you’re better off backing Mike Pence over on Betfair to be the winner of the 2020 election or the GOP nominee at 220/1 and 30/1 respectively.'

    If you think that is promoting, I'd spend the rest of the year on some English lessons.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 22,703
    edited August 2020
    ..
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
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