Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some Trump (sore) loser bets

245

Comments

  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 9,705

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 4,302

    MattW said:

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Can you point me to a summary?

    The changes to permitted development *for existing dwellings* AIUI seem to be relatively moderate.

    And changes for change of use are probably appropriate given the Corona impact on society, but standards and enforcement are the keys.
    I’m just going off the BBC News article here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53625960.

    It suggests that someone (the civil service?) will divide all land into “growth”, “renewal”, and “protected” categories.

    I assume most, if not all, of the current “Green Belt” will be “protected” so really this scheme is to simply encourage building on brown field sites that nobody wants to build on at present?

    @Cyclefree did you say your husband was a planning barrister? Does he/you have any thoughts on this?

    That's interesting.

    It looks a little like a shift towards what is known as a "Zonal" planning system, whilst in the UK it is more case by case.

    The "Shock! Horror! 280k planning permission were granted and not built" is mainly a red herring, as it always is - there are many other uses for Planning Permission beyond immediate building of things, such as establishing whether the land is suitable for development at this time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,976

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    The Dutch are resisting masks quite strongly as well, apparently, although who can say how long this will last?

    I suspect that the arguments over whether they do more good than harm or more harm than good in non-clinical settings will probably never be resolved adequately. Whatever. My original point wasn't to do with the utility of masks but rather with the way in which they've been mobilized as yet another excuse to abuse people.
    I'm sure that's true, like in early lockdown reports of people being harangued for doing their exercise as armchair police with a misunderstanding of the law dudnt like what others were up to.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,380
    edited August 2

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    There is. Newcastle Council required my estate (or at least the areas visible from the main road) to be in fitting with the rest of the “village” where I live. It looks very nice and not at all “new-buildy”.

    Of course there was a premium on the price because of it - it was more desirable.

    Remember its only the “good” Victorian housing that still stands. The sh*t has been long bulldozed.
    A lot of beautiful Victorian buildings have been destroyed too. You could be right about there being shoddy ones that has now gone the way of all flesh, but I am not sure that it's a common feature. Even mills, workhouses and sewage pumping stations were build grandly.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,365
    Nigelb said:
    This is bad for the UK and the tech industry as a whole.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    edited August 2

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    Yes as often happens with organisations and governments , they pander to the "something must be done ,everything can be made good if controlled" brigade then get trapped into keeping it (and doubling down) to save face when it become obvious they are wrong. Masks do sod all in terms of controlling the virus which bascially cannot be controlled and society needs to get back to normal so the virus can run its course as quickly as possible with less of a damage to the the economy, peoples mental and physical health (obesity has risen in this ) and education. Sweden will and is emerging the winner because they had some politicians and experts with some backbone
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    There’s a misconception with new builds that because the materials are thin, they are poorly made. They are not. They are built with engineered materials that are not required to be super thick to be strong with good thermal performance.

    There’s a huge misconception in the UK that “brick” and “stone” is good and everything else is bad.

    I couldn’t buy an older property now that I am used to new build thermal performance. It really is night and day.

    Regardless, you are right that there are other issues with design. I’m lucky that I did 2 years worth of research so that my house (built in 2018) actually has very good room proportions, and a double side by side drive - something rare in a new build in my price range.

    You are right to highlight the leasehold problem, but it gets deeper than that. All new build homes are now freehold but with management companys. An arrangement that offers even less rights than leaseholders posses. I’ve wrote quite a few times about it on here but it attracts little interest.
    I agree, only thing I miss are the high ceilings, been in mine 14 years since new, large driveway , front ages etc all subject to rules so all kept nice and energy bills are tiny. Luckily we are all freehold in Scotland, no parasites bleeding us dry.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    malcolmg said:

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    There’s a misconception with new builds that because the materials are thin, they are poorly made. They are not. They are built with engineered materials that are not required to be super thick to be strong with good thermal performance.

    There’s a huge misconception in the UK that “brick” and “stone” is good and everything else is bad.

    I couldn’t buy an older property now that I am used to new build thermal performance. It really is night and day.

    Regardless, you are right that there are other issues with design. I’m lucky that I did 2 years worth of research so that my house (built in 2018) actually has very good room proportions, and a double side by side drive - something rare in a new build in my price range.

    You are right to highlight the leasehold problem, but it gets deeper than that. All new build homes are now freehold but with management companys. An arrangement that offers even less rights than leaseholders posses. I’ve wrote quite a few times about it on here but it attracts little interest.
    I agree, only thing I miss are the high ceilings, been in mine 14 years since new, large driveway , front ages etc all subject to rules so all kept nice and energy bills are tiny. Luckily we are all freehold in Scotland, no parasites bleeding us dry.
    I am disappointed. I thought you lived in a thatched croft on a deserted outer Hebredian island and dried your kilts on the south-facing hedge...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 13,985

    Why is PB promoting these daft one-sided betting markets? They are a con.

    A good ground rule is never bet on anything that you cannot lay.

    I like the idea of odds on Trump not conceding in the traditional way after defeat - I rate this a racing certainty - but it's difficult to frame such a bet in a way that both captures the spirit of it and is sufficiently precise.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    Unsure how I feel about this proposed change in planning law in England. On the face of it, it seems like a good idea, but I bet there’s a whole host of unintended consequences incoming.

    Not exactly being an expert on building regulations - and I therefore stand to be corrected by those who may be - one suspects that where this will end is with...

    Bad conversions of commercial property into tiny shoebox flats, which will end up as slums - which has already started, as per the notorious eyesore described here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-47720887

    AND

    Large tracts of very small, crappy new houses, sold for hugely inflated prices and subsequently found to be full of defects, and without adequate roads, public transport links, additional capacity for local schools and GPs, or any other necessary infrastructure provided

    In short, homes will probably end up getting built in much greater numbers - which will enable the Government to trumpet its successes through the raw statistics - but most of these homes will be total shit.
    There really needs to be an incentive to make houses attractive from the outside as well as in . I often thought that the Victorians did this well (maybe it was just pure showing off by the owners) and it benefits the locality having attractive buildings and houses . There probably needs to be these days a public subsidy for this but thats fine as it is a public benefit.
    The external appearance of new build houses is one of the less important problems with them - yes, unless they're being built for the upper end of the market then they're typically very, very boring, but not necessarily overtly ugly - it's what's inside that's the real problem. Tiny poky little rooms are the norm, shoddy construction and disastrous leasehold traps always a risk.

    I'm not sure when the Rook household might move up to something a bit larger - being mortgage-free is a considerable blessing, especially in the current economic climate - but if and when this happens I wouldn't touch a new build with the proverbial barge pole. They're expensive and horrible and they might fall down around your ears five minutes after you've signed the contract. Why risk it?
    There’s a misconception with new builds that because the materials are thin, they are poorly made. They are not. They are built with engineered materials that are not required to be super thick to be strong with good thermal performance.

    There’s a huge misconception in the UK that “brick” and “stone” is good and everything else is bad.

    I couldn’t buy an older property now that I am used to new build thermal performance. It really is night and day.

    Regardless, you are right that there are other issues with design. I’m lucky that I did 2 years worth of research so that my house (built in 2018) actually has very good room proportions, and a double side by side drive - something rare in a new build in my price range.

    You are right to highlight the leasehold problem, but it gets deeper than that. All new build homes are now freehold but with management companys. An arrangement that offers even less rights than leaseholders posses. I’ve wrote quite a few times about it on here but it attracts little interest.
    On your first point: I do actually understand that there's nothing wrong with what are often written off as "ticky-tacky" building methods, if executed well. Unfortunately, however, there are too many stories circulating of people who have been lumbered with houses thrown up in a hurry and then abandoned to suffer by the builders. NHBC certificates are of no value in resolving these issues, and the owners end up having their lives turned upside down trying to get them fixed. So no thanks - I'd rather have something that's been standing for a while, so that one can have a reasonable degree of certainty that it's not full of defects.

    You've done very well finding anything (let alone a new build) that comes with good proportions at a reasonable price. Around our way there's more available than there used to be in the £275K-£290K range - presumably people desperate to move and being forced to cut asking prices due to Covid - but they're mostly mid-terrace and/or very small.

    I wasn't aware of there being an issue of freehold property lashed to management companies. Sounds like another good reason to steer clear.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.

    My experience of wearing a mask so far hasn't been positive - I really dislike the whole thing both the physical enclosure and the psychological image. However, we have to do this as we have to stop this bloody virus. I am very happy for anti-maskers to enter a Jonestown compound and go breathe on each other as much as they like. The rest of us would quite like to live thanks.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 29,837
    Off this afternoon to see this coming into Prestwick. Should be awesome as you can get close to end of runway.

  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599
    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,976
    edited August 2

    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.

    My experience of wearing a mask so far hasn't been positive - I really dislike the whole thing both the physical enclosure and the psychological image. However, we have to do this as we have to stop this bloody virus. I am very happy for anti-maskers to enter a Jonestown compound and go breathe on each other as much as they like. The rest of us would quite like to live thanks.
    It's annoying and I don't like it, but as deprivations of liberty go it does not see extreme in a public health situation, and also I can so no reason it could be enforced to continue long term without said situation, even if someone wanted it to for some reason. So it can certainly be put up with.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    malcolmg said:

    Off this afternoon to see this coming into Prestwick. Should be awesome as you can get close to end of runway.

    Have fun! However big you think she’s going to be, she’s way bigger. Absolutely enormous in fact, wingspan is 3x that of a 737.
    She’s also had a paint job recently, looks a little prettier and more Ukranian:
    https://simpleflying.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/225-1.jpg
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 31,428
    Scott_xP said:
    I prefer the Labour Party under Corbyn as a parallel.

    Partly because it’s a parallel that works much better. After all, Trump did unexpectedly well on a manifesto of uncosted lies and attacks on minority groups but couldn’t actually get the backing of a majority.

    But also because it shows that when the arse has been kicked and the lying racist beaten harder than a cricket ball being bowled at Jonny Bairstow, the party does return to sanity.

    Have a good morning.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,380
    It's good that some countries are taking more draconian measures than others. It means we can see what works.

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    edited August 2

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    I like to think of myself as pretty libertarian, but trying to politicise wearing masks in the midst of a respatory pandemic disease is silly in the extreme.

    Wear masks, people. Seriously.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,901
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    I see the Libertarian frothers are turning up, so.... later peeps! :+1:
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    edited August 2
    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    Off this afternoon to see this coming into Prestwick. Should be awesome as you can get close to end of runway.

    Have fun! However big you think she’s going to be, she’s way bigger. Absolutely enormous in fact, wingspan is 3x that of a 737.
    She’s also had a paint job recently, looks a little prettier and more Ukranian:
    https://simpleflying.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/225-1.jpg
    Those wheels. Straight out of Thunderbirds!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents liek to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    As a patient, I would hope they wouldn’t let you in in the UK without one.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    You get what you deserve for promoting mis information and putting people lives at risk
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    If you hate wearing a mask then you're going to love wearing a ventilator.

    yes a pithy slogan that's bit wanky in its delivery . I saw it on a toy shop entrance and thought they must really like their customers .
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146

    If you hate wearing a mask then you're going to love wearing a ventilator.

    Getting admitted into hosital without a mask is your implicit confirmation you don't want a ventilator either.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    You get what you deserve for promoting mis information and putting people lives at risk
    It cannot be mis-information when one group of scientists disagree with another group about the efficacy of a health measure.

    It simply cannot be.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    I see the Libertarian frothers are turning up, so.... later peeps! :+1:

    OK but odd to leave a debate if somebody shows up with a different view imo. Isn't that the point of a debate or is this some kind of politburo?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 6,752
    ydoethur said:

    it shows that when the arse has been kicked and the lying racist beaten harder than a cricket ball being bowled at Jonny Bairstow, the party does return to sanity.

    We can only hope that's true when BoZo does get the boot
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599

    If you hate wearing a mask then you're going to love wearing a ventilator.

    Demented. Like going out into the street and shouting at fat people 'if you like crisps and pizza you're going to love diabetes'
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    It's good that some countries are taking more draconian measures than others. It means we can see what works.

    There are too many variables involved, as well as the politics. Any evidence generated is liable to be disputed and to be used both to confirm and deny any given contention.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    Scott_xP said:
    The GOP has been following Nixon's Southern Strategy? I do not think that thesis is correct. Rather, the problem is that many in the GOP regard the Democrats with such horror that anything, from blatant lies to vote suppression and packed courts, is justified to beat them.

    And I fear we have seen similar behaviour in this country, for instance gerrymandering efforts under Cameron/Osborne because it was obvious Labour was cheating, and the dubious social media campaigning and Stalinist purges under Boris, regrettable but perhaps necessary to defeat underhanded Remainers and save the country from Venezuelan-like ruin under Corbyn.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,146
    Winter flu deaths this year in Australia are 90% down. Anti-maskers need to expalin that one away.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,875
    kle4 said:

    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.

    My experience of wearing a mask so far hasn't been positive - I really dislike the whole thing both the physical enclosure and the psychological image. However, we have to do this as we have to stop this bloody virus. I am very happy for anti-maskers to enter a Jonestown compound and go breathe on each other as much as they like. The rest of us would quite like to live thanks.
    It's annoying and I don't like it, but as deprivations of liberty go it does not see extreme in a public health situation, and also I can so no reason it could be enforced to continue long term without said situation, even if someone wanted it to for some reason. So it can certainly be put up with.
    Yes, that seems a fair summary from both kle4 and RP - they aren't enjoyable to wear, but as an expedient for now they're also no big deal. The climate that contrarian describes of "nauseating climate of intimidation and fear" is not one I have encountered.

    I'm surprised there aren't more effortsd to popularise cool maks that look like Dracula or Superman. A friend has one but most people are just going for boring white or black.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    I like to think of myself as pretty libertarian, but trying to politicise wearing masks in the midst of a respatory pandemic disease is silly in the extreme.

    Wear masks, people. Seriously.
    I am not politicising it merely arguing against it. Its others who are bringing libertarianism into it in the sense I must be arguing from an ideological point of view - I am arguing it from a practical point of view and to save society not wreck it
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    I like to think of myself as pretty libertarian, but trying to politicise wearing masks in the midst of a respatory pandemic disease is silly in the extreme.

    Wear masks, people. Seriously.
    I am not politicising it merely arguing against it. Its others who are bringing libertarianism into it in the sense I must be arguing from an ideological point of view - I am arguing it from a practical point of view and to save society not wreck it
  • MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:
    This is bad for the UK and the tech industry as a whole.
    Nvidia can stifle innovation and sit on their hands and run down yet another successful company.
  • If you hate wearing a mask then you're going to love wearing a ventilator.

    Demented. Like going out into the street and shouting at fat people 'if you like crisps and pizza you're going to love diabetes'
    The fact someone else has diabetes doesn't mean they will give anyone they come in close contact with diabetes as well, unlike Covid-19.

    You anti-maskers really are quite stupid.
  • To be honest I think of masks like a car seatbelt. It's not much of an inconvenience for me to wear one and whilst 99% of the time it does nothing as I don't get into accidents I am grateful that if it ever does happen I'll be more protected than without and so will others in their vehicles
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    I see the Libertarian frothers are turning up, so.... later peeps! :+1:

    OK but odd to leave a debate if somebody shows up with a different view imo. Isn't that the point of a debate or is this some kind of politburo?
    Mask wearing is the new Brexit. "Debate" left the building some time ago, to be replaced by a mindless shouting match of sloganeering.

    This will be going on for the rest of the day on here now. Say anything in favour of masks and you're a fascist, say anything against them and you're a nihilistic lunatic.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583

    It's good that some countries are taking more draconian measures than others. It means we can see what works.

    It’s going to be a variety of things.

    Top of the list is likely to be fast and rapidly available testing and tracing, followed by the ability to keep infected subjects isolated completely when possible - in many cases this will *not* be at home.

    Next will be limiting social environments, which needs to include mandatory testing and quarantining (again, not at home in many cases) of arrivals from hot spots, and addressing/mitigating public transport overcrowding. Mandatory PPE where social distance cannot be maintained in any environment - wearing masks when indoors anywhere outside your house except when eating and well spaced.

    It requires the public to take it seriously, and in many areas there will be a trade-off between economic activity and minimising risk.

    The best countries in dealing with the virus will also be those without a media landscape dominated by people paid to have an ‘opinion’, however silly and contrary, just for the hell of it!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 15,012

    Winter flu deaths this year in Australia are 90% down. Anti-maskers need to expalin that one away.

    Has Australia effectively carried on as normal with the only change being the wearing of masks?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,970

    It's good that some countries are taking more draconian measures than others. It means we can see what works.

    Weren't folk suggesting similar in March-April?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712

    Sandpit said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    I like to think of myself as pretty libertarian, but trying to politicise wearing masks in the midst of a respatory pandemic disease is silly in the extreme.

    Wear masks, people. Seriously.
    I am not politicising it merely arguing against it. Its others who are bringing libertarianism into it in the sense I must be arguing from an ideological point of view - I am arguing it from a practical point of view and to save society not wreck it
    Fair points, there is no reason the discussion on laws around them should be taboo. Masks arent as much of a no brainer as being made out or we would have worn them from the start. My view then was that its a complicated issue that the scientists and government are more likely to get right than the non expert. That still holds so happy to wear one.

    If places that dont mandate them start to outperform similar places that do mandate them, of course it should be studied to see if we are getting it right, rather than being seen as sacrilegious to even discuss. I think state_go_away is massively overstating his cause, but thats not at all unusual on here and from politicians generally.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693
    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 27,583
    Another exhibit for the theory that the best political commentators in the USA are comedians rather than the serious journalists:
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477
    edited August 2

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use.Also Sweden does exist so its valid to observe it and comment on it especially as it is doing something different. i thought a straw man was an invented thing
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712

    Winter flu deaths this year in Australia are 90% down. Anti-maskers need to expalin that one away.

    Rare from you, but bit of an own goal with that one I am afraid!

    Flu rates were significantly diverging from 2019 by March 2020 and Australia had amongst the lowest mask usage (26%) by country on 5 May, with it first being mandated on 22 July.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2242113-australia-sees-huge-decrease-in-flu-cases-due-to-coronavirus-measures/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_masks_during_the_COVID-19_pandemic
  • MattWMattW Posts: 4,302

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    I'd say that is one for a few prosecutions. Asking the question is OK; behaving like that is not.

    A fairly clear cut criminal offence - aggravated harrassment or something similar?

    Plenty of in shop CCTV around.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use
    I won't cut out the insult. Your attitude endangers everyone around you. I can't see my parents because of people like you. As for mental health issues I am depressed. "Nutjob" in this context describes someone of sound mind whose ideas are stupid - flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and now anti-maskers.

    About your "maths". A mask does not create a transmission where it would not have happened otherwise. If the mask wearer is transmitting viral particles the mask will stop them. If the viral particles are elsewhere better to touch the outside of your mask than your face.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712
    Scott_xP said:
    I actually dont mind this. We are trying to drive a car where we dont know how much impact the brake and accelerator will have. Using both quite a lot is probably needed. In normal times where we would have good idea of how the brake and accelerator are calibrated of course we could plot a steadier course.

    All for u-turns between stop and start, just get the communication much better, and make the restrictions more logical.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use
    I won't cut out the insult. Your attitude endangers everyone around you. I can't see my parents because of people like you. As for mental health issues I am depressed. "Nutjob" in this context describes someone of sound mind whose ideas are stupid - flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and now anti-maskers.

    About your "maths". A mask does not create a transmission where it would not have happened otherwise. If the mask wearer is transmitting viral particles the mask will stop them. If the viral particles are elsewhere better to touch the?

    I think you assume I am a lawbreaker (cannot see my parents because of you)? I only argue against bad law because I have to follow it like everyone else. Dont assume stuff about me and I repeat do not do silly insults that do you no credit .
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 3,953
    I skipped the daily two-sided shouting debate on here to see Tom Scott in 2015 describing 2020 and PB ... "two sides shouting at each other and neither prepared to back down in case they think the other side would win..."

    He was quite accurate about 2020.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,651
    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649

    Winter flu deaths this year in Australia are 90% down. Anti-maskers need to explain that one away.

    My concern is that these are precisely the kinds of excuses that will be used to enforce masks when Covid is finally under some form of control, and that we will therefore be stuck with the wretched things forever. Everything that has already happened and what's still to come is bloody miserable enough as it is, without spending the rest of eternity having to wrap a rag round your face every time you leave the house.

    If we start off down the road of having to do everything that makes it marginally less likely that an illness might be passed on to someone else then it won't even end with masks everywhere. Before many more years have passed it'll also be gloves everywhere, goggles everywhere, and then full hazmat suits everywhere.

    I loathe masks but I can put up with them as (a) an emergency measure and (b) where there's some plausible likelihood that they might do some good. I worry that, contrary to this, they'll spread outdoors - so that it eventually ends up being the case that you're smothered by a rag everywhere except in your own home - and that they'll become permanent.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use
    I won't cut out the insult. Your attitude endangers everyone around you. I can't see my parents because of people like you. As for mental health issues I am depressed. "Nutjob" in this context describes someone of sound mind whose ideas are stupid - flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and now anti-maskers.

    About your "maths". A mask does not create a transmission where it would not have happened otherwise. If the mask wearer is transmitting viral particles the mask will stop them. If the viral particles are elsewhere better to touch the outside of your mask than your face.
    Sorry but you cannot claim another person is responsible for you not seeing a relative, that is extremely unfair.

    We all social distance and I work from home. I have not travelled anywhere I haven;t met a person outside my bubble in four months,.

    I just don't think masks work, and I think there is a political dimension to the mandatory wearing of them. There is also nothing wrong with pointing out that scientists in some countries are sceptical.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use
    I won't cut out the insult. Your attitude endangers everyone around you. I can't see my parents because of people like you. As for mental health issues I am depressed. "Nutjob" in this context describes someone of sound mind whose ideas are stupid - flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and now anti-maskers.

    About your "maths". A mask does not create a transmission where it would not have happened otherwise. If the mask wearer is transmitting viral particles the mask will stop them. If the viral particles are elsewhere better to touch the outside of your mask than your face.
    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus - With a name like yours i presume you are of the social democratic left so do you think Sweden (a country known for its social democratic governments) are nut jobs (in your rather crude words)
    "of no use controlling the virus"

    Can I refer you back to my libertarian nut job comment?
    Wee they are of no use - for all the cases where a transmission is stopped , there is at least one where because the wearer is touching and adjusting it all the time it is spread. thats why they are sensible in hospitals and not elsewhere. Anyway do you think Sweden are nutjobs?
    Amazingly enough I don't need to answer your straw man arguments about Sweden. Lets look at the rest of your post though.

    "For all cases where transmission is stopped [by a mask] there is at least one because the wearer is touching". OK, if we assume your no basis in fact maths are correct, masks would stop 50% of transmission. Yet you said "of no use controlling the virus".

    You're talking shit mate. Like I said. Libertarian nutjob.
    Look cut the personal insult out for a start. Dont call people nutjobs especially when you have posted about mental health issues yourself ok! Beyond that i dont follwo your maths - if it stops one case but spreads another overall it is no use
    I won't cut out the insult. Your attitude endangers everyone around you. I can't see my parents because of people like you. As for mental health issues I am depressed. "Nutjob" in this context describes someone of sound mind whose ideas are stupid - flat earthers, anti-vaxxers, and now anti-maskers.

    About your "maths". A mask does not create a transmission where it would not have happened otherwise. If the mask wearer is transmitting viral particles the mask will stop them. If the viral particles are elsewhere better to touch the outside of your mask than your face.
    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,888
    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
    I can use both without problem - but prefer the vanilla site as too often the articles are just pushing the same agenda.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231

    Scott_xP said:
    I actually dont mind this. We are trying to drive a car where we dont know how much impact the brake and accelerator will have. Using both quite a lot is probably needed. In normal times where we would have good idea of how the brake and accelerator are calibrated of course we could plot a steadier course.

    All for u-turns between stop and start, just get the communication much better, and make the restrictions more logical.
    Sadly I think the government strategy was hope it goes away quickly so that everyone can enjoy all the benefits of the Brexit mountain of red tape making groceries expensive and short of supply. "You will send your kids to school or I will fine you" was laughable at the time and now seems absurd.

    We will be able to go back to some kind of normal but its going to involve a change in approach. Masks are here to stay until swe all get vaccinated or it naturally mutates into something harmless. Masks literally everywhere indoors that isn't the home and yes that is going to have to include pubs and restaurants.

    Why? Because the new NW restrictions highlight the absurd contradictions in the position. Worry about people outside different households meeting indoors. So a ban on doing that. Unless its a pub in which case don't meet with people outside your household. But a pub is full of people not from your household.

    Its armagedon for our economy whether they impose this initially or not. When the death rate goes up again - and it will - people will avoid such hotspots in fear regardless of whether they send out Ester twatting McVey in front of a green screen to show us all what they would like us all to be doing.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 2,599

    Winter flu deaths this year in Australia are 90% down. Anti-maskers need to explain that one away.

    My concern is that these are precisely the kinds of excuses that will be used to enforce masks when Covid is finally under some form of control, and that we will therefore be stuck with the wretched things forever. Everything that has already happened and what's still to come is bloody miserable enough as it is, without spending the rest of eternity having to wrap a rag round your face every time you leave the house.

    If we start off down the road of having to do everything that makes it marginally less likely that an illness might be passed on to someone else then it won't even end with masks everywhere. Before many more years have passed it'll also be gloves everywhere, goggles everywhere, and then full hazmat suits everywhere.

    I loathe masks but I can put up with them as (a) an emergency measure and (b) where there's some plausible likelihood that they might do some good. I worry that, contrary to this, they'll spread outdoors - so that it eventually ends up being the case that you're smothered by a rag everywhere except in your own home - and that they'll become permanent.
    If masks do work then they are more dangerous than if they don;t

    Your immune system needs regular workouts to stay in trim, and that means contact with germs and viruses spread by others

    Prof Gupta and the Oxford team have already warned that immune systems may deteriorate if we isolate from each other much longer.

    All we are doing is making ourselves more vulnerable to something that could then cut a swathe through the population.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    So has there been any update on the dubious stats the government is putting out ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 61,398
    edited August 2
    Well at least masks have more or less killed the Brexit debate. We should be thankful for small mercies.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 6,817

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    I go for a coffee every day, sun down drinks each evening and eat out three times a week, I just want everybody else to obey the rules so I can continue to do so and feel safe whilst doing it. Mask wearing gives me that sense of security especially if everybody complies.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 4,302
    edited August 2

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,651


    Don't worry Robert, Trump will do it. Just in November rather than August.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 3,901

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    The Dutch scientists believe there may be a downside in that masks give a false sense of security.

    This may be the reason mask crazy Spain is having an upsurge in cases whereas Sweden and the Netherlands are simply trusting people to behave responsibly.

    The science, I'm afraid, is not necessarily on your side.
    Don’t talk bollocks about mask usage in Spain it’s been pointed out numerous times that this is not the cause of the uplift but you continue to spout your claptrap,
    No. I will not be silenced by authoritarians like you who are getting ever shriller as the evidence turns against them and their control freakery is exposed.

    Sweden and now the Netherlands. Other countries are managing much better without the horrible climate of fear and intimidation we have here.
    I don’t get shriller just point out the truth, can’t work out your agenda, think counseling could help.
    Ah I see, mental health smears now. You really are pulling out all the stops aren;t you?

    Frankly there really is something slightly odd about people who can get so hysterical about being required to wear a mask when going into a shop. I can quite see why some people don't think it makes much difference either way but frothing about it day in day out is something else. I really do wonder what your agenda is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693

    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    I suspect many of the mask fanatics are also house cowerers and secret lockdown obsessives.

    It would be human nature for there to be bitter people angry at seeing other going about and enjoying their lives.
    There is no doubt that masks also do some good. A person with a cough, for example, can exhale virus laden particles a considerable distance and is a hazard to others. A mask reduces that risk, unquestionably.
    It may be that the element of caution and inhibition of interaction with others is a good thing right now.
    I just don't believe that this is simple or straightforward. When I am out in shops I wear a mask because the law requires it. I think people are still entitled to query whether that law is particularly sensible.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 6,231
    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 35,651
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Might work for the hospitality trade. The anecdata I've heard in last 24 hours has been basically 'let's get to the pub and make the most of it before the next lockdown'.
    Not really sure why Dan is saying that.

    A 2nd wave has been baked in to scenario planning since the start of the year or earlier.

    And economic activity can be promoted, depending on the circs.

    Yet more pillar-to-post-and-back media wibble.
    The media so far. Tongue firmly in cheek:

    When are you going to lock us all down? What are you waiting for, millions will die.

    When are you going to unlock us all? It's been what two weeks now. Christ we will all go mad.

    Why didn't you say there would be a second wave?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 4,302

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.

    True. And when they get home they can take their mask off, dispose of it, and wash hands then face to prevent any transmission.

    With a little self-discipline and sensible habits it helps significantly.
  • felixfelix Posts: 10,888
    DavidL said:

    nichomar said:

    nichomar said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    Yes there are a lot of covid Karens around- Society is pretty depressing at the moment ,made worse by the order to wear ineffective masks
    I recall a similar argument over seat belts in 1983. "Seat belts restrict my movement" was the complaint at the time. Well yes they did, in the event of sudden inertia they prevented "movement" through the windscreen of your Austin Ambassador at 70 mph.

    Likewise masks, a little uncomfortable, however they might prevent transmission of a disease which could have a similar ultimate outcome.
    Yes but seat belts dont cut you off from people (especially hard of hearing ones), create horrible debris and create such a miserable picture of life. All of these effects are hard to quantify unlike obsessively working out deaths from a illness that has a death rate below 0.5% and will spread anyway (see Australia) .The only way out is herd immunity and protecting the economy and people's sanity
    Look, I don't like wearing a mask, and I don't have to wear one here in Wales, but if I am told so to do because it "might" benefit myself and my family, I will wear one.

    Time to go, it is getting silly here again.
    Anecadata from Sweden: still (almost) no masks here.

    A couple of weeks ago I reported that I maybe saw one mask-wearer a week. That has crept up to maybe three a week. And I am out and about a lot.

    They are still so rare that my wife and I usually comment if we see one.

    Back to work tomorrow after my 6 weeks and 2 days (!!) summer hols, so I’ll soon find out what culture is prevailing at my workplace. There was some dissatisfaction with management over their Covid19 response before I left, but my expectations of change are very low. Almost nothing of note happens in Swedish workplaces during June-August.

    (!! even in the annals of super-generous Swedish leave, I’ve just set a personal best in lazy summers.)
    yes it seems like is coping without masks there and a lot more pleasant as well. Wake up the rest of the world .
    In the Mail there is a report from Amsterdam, where nobody is wearing masks and there is no nauseating climate of intimidation and fear.

    Their scientists do not believe masks work and they may even hinder the control of the virus.

    In Germany there were vast protests yesterday against lockdown.

    I posted yesterday that what threatens the Johnson government is evidence others are pulling out of this without any of the horrible stuff we are having to endure.

    One SAGE guy yesterday threatened us with tanks on the streets and today's threat is house arrest for the over 50s.

    Its running at a threat a day as the government and the SAGE politburo fight to retain the control they have had since March.
    These people need to get a grip. They might not work, but they might. If there is even a small chance that they help, then we should be wearing them. There is literally no down side FFS.
    i am sorry but anyone who thinks there is no downside to wearing masks gives me the creeps . Because it does mean that once this illness is gone people will still advocate or wear them because "just in case" as there is "no downside" -Of course there is a downside - massive ones
    If you are a libertarian nut job
    but you just listed two downsides in your recent post!! There are many more of course and far too many to tolerate given they are of no use in controlling the virus -
    Would you go into a hospital without a mask? Probably I suppose it’s such an imposition and affront to YOUR human rights.
    No its sensible in a hospital , not least because people know how to wear them in a trained way. Its not sensible away from those type of environments. And its nothing to do with human rights (or extreme libertarian stance (even if opponents like to ridicule it like that) its to do with saving society, saving the economy and businesses and jobs, saving the tax base from which the NHS and welfare are funded and peoples health (mentally and physically)
    Wearing masks does nothing to inhibit those developments, they actually assist. There is no downside to them especially if everybody did.
    Possible downsides of masks:
    With untrained members of the public they result in much more frequent contact with the face by hands increasing the rate of infection.
    The repeated use of the same mask (unlike medical staff) increases the risk that the user will themselves become infected via the mask.
    They can cause complacency resulting in less use of more effective mechanisms. Purely anecdotal but I have observed far fewer people sterilising their trollies and hands in Tesco's since we have all worn masks.
    They inhibit social interaction and make going to shops more unpleasant making the return to normality more problematic than it is anyway.

    No doubt that there are others and undoubtedly there are counter-arguments which may well be more compelling but this masks good, no masks bad nonsense is similar to the 4 legs 2 legs mantra in Animal Farm and every bit as thoughtful.
    Interesting my experience in Spain is that wearing the mask seems to remind people about generally being cautious - cleaning trolley handles, etc. Of course there remains much ignorance. We've had an outbreak at a nightclub this week [ where mask usage and distancing were clearly being flouted] and it was closed for disinfection. Several Facebook comments assume that once disinfected the problem at the club is solved. Permanently! Indeed they were saying cheerfully it would reopen the next day. My province is now getting more daily cases than at any time previously - 3 causes:

    1. Agricultural workers
    2. Family/Friend meetups
    3. Clubs and discos.

    The common factor - not using masks!
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,477

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
    Well far from me to question who you allocate the unseemly insult "nuts " to but as a point of order you will see in the below I have argued only in the ineffective category. So you are both rude and going against your own criteria for handing out juvenile insults- I certainly have not stopped you visiting your parents as well (not sure how you come to that epic conclusion)
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 4,390
    OllyT said:

    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    I can't see this thread in vanilla at all.

    On the positive side, you can post on the website.
    Doesn’t seem to work for me (iPad).
    Vanilla only.
    I can only sign in and comment from the vanilla site, been like that for months. Annoying, I have to switch to the PB site in order to read the articles and then back to the vanilla site if I want to comment.
    Wordpress was updated a couple of months back: did your problems start then? Only @rcs1000 can investigate fully and details are often so vague and inconsistent between different PBers to make it look like a fool's errand. Have you tried the generic advice for these sorts of problems -- Is your browser up-to-date (menu > help > about...)? Have you cleared its cache and pb/Vanilla-related cookies? Have you tried a different browser? Are things different if you disable all browser extensions? If you click on the padlock or "not secure" message, does anything interesting appear? If you can use your browser's developer tools, do they flag any errors? Have you tried sacrificing a small mammal?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 32,693

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
    I agree with your latter point. For me this is not a libertarian argument, it is an efficacy argument.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 18,082
    Remember back in March the strategy was 'flattening the curve' and keeping infections within the capacity of the NHS to deal with them ?

    Does anyone know what the strategy is now ?

    It seems to me there are three aspects - economic and social freedoms, h&s restrictions and 'casualty rate'.

    The discussion about the trade off seems to be only about the first two.

    Whereas I think we need to consider what death rate we consider acceptable.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 21,365
    F1 news - McLaren say they are out of the financial woods. I've heard separately that they are looking into how many of the job cuts they can reverse and which car models they can cut instead to make savings. In car development terms they are shifting resources to the 35B which will run next year with the Mercedes engine and some to the 36 which will be 2022 regulations.

    For those of you who bet on these things, there is a sense that the Pink Mercedes won't be able to keep up with Ferrari and McLaren by the end of the season because they have no capability to develop the baseline package as they have basically zero understand of how it all works and are highly dependent on Mercedes sharing the specs with them for development, which Mercedes are much less willing to do with the Renault complaint naming them as a co-conspirator.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,649
    edited August 2
    MattW said:

    Meanwhile, habits of brutally abusing strangers that have developed on anti-social media bleed out into the real world at an ever-increasing rate.

    Mask rage: ‘One man told me I shouldn't be allowed out if I can't wear one’

    In the past few weeks, Paul Feeley has been abused four times for not wearing a mask on public transport. “I have a disability lanyard, which signifies I have a hidden disability. I tried to show it … And all I got back was a complete torrent of abuse.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/01/mask-face-coverings-i-cant-wear-one-health-reasons

    This is a total non-surprise. My husband, whose asthma is sufficiently bad that he was put on the shielding list and struggles with mask-wearing for extended periods, is nonetheless lumbered with using a rag primarily for this reason. Although it is mercifully unlikely, if we do nonetheless encounter some self-righteous, beetroot-faced screamer in a shop or on a train then they aren't going to be interested in excuses, are they?

    There's not a day goes by where we're not bombarded with messages about human rights, but the right that trumps all others would now seem to be the right to scream in somebody else's face if you feel offended about something - hence the fact that the ban on mass gatherings is deemed not to apply to angry protest marches. Johnson probably ought to go on TV and instruct the general public simply to desist from trying to police mask wearing themselves, but I doubt that this would do anything to discourage such vigilantism. The people doing it enjoy their petty power trip far too much.

    I'd say that is one for a few prosecutions. Asking the question is OK; behaving like that is not.

    A fairly clear cut criminal offence - aggravated harrassment or something similar?

    Plenty of in shop CCTV around.
    One suspects that today's police are too busy dealing with complaints about "microaggressions" on Twitter to bother investigating anything other than the most serious violent crimes, and the criminal justice system more generally doesn't seem to be much use at handling even those (see recent reports of rape conviction rates down to record low levels.)

    It's a great shame because a variety of creative punishments for the beetroot-faced could be legislated for. I'd have anyone caught threatening the sick and disabled for having the temerity to go without a rag made to go around padlocked into a ball gag for a month.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 6,712

    DavidL said:

    Just think about that last point for a second. You go to a shop and touch a surface that has the virus on it with your hands. You need to adjust your mask yet again because your glasses have steamed up for the 20th time or your face is itchy. The virus is transmitted to the mask, through which you continue to breath inhaling the virus.
    Trained staff know not to touch their mask or face whilst using it. They have single use PPE which is sterilised as opposed to being kept in your back pocket or your bag. Used properly masks help, no question. But how many are and what is the balance of risk? I would suggest that the evidence is mixed at best.

    People touch their faces. A lot. Better they touch the outside of their mask than their bare skin.


    Were the WHO nutjobs just two months ago?

    I am happy to go with their current advice and think that is likely the right policy but surely advocating what the WHO were in June isnt sufficient to make someone a nutjob in early August?

    As the WHO said at the time this is a new virus. We're learning all the time. The mask science now is based on two months more data than then. But with respect to "nutjobs" remember that I said "libertarian nutjobs". Its not "a mask may be ineffective" that is nuts. It is "I will not wear a mask it infringes on my human rights to do what I want" that is nuts.
    I know libertarian views on masks have been made in the past, not sure exactly who from, but reading this thread, todays discussion has been about the effectiveness of masks in different countries, not the liberty angle.
Sign In or Register to comment.