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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Spotting the Difference – what really matters to Johnson when

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited July 2020 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Spotting the Difference – what really matters to Johnson when deciding who is in or out

The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland – has usually been seen as a hospital pass (any point during the Troubles), an internal exile for those having to earn their passage back to the mainstream (Mandelson) or somewhere to put rivals or nuisances (Francis Pym, Jim Prior). In some cases, PMs have trolled the residents of that benighted province (Shaun Woodward, Karen Bradley, for heaven’s sake!) Few have shone in the role. One who did was Julian Smith. In his time there, he managed to broker a return of the devolved government (after a three-year stalemate), helped secure agreement in the revised Withdrawal Agreement to there being no hard border between north and south and oversaw the introduction of marriage equality. Quite something for 204 days’ work. For all this he was praised by both the Irish Taisoeach and Arlene Foster and duly sacked by Boris Johnson.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,863
    "Johnson likes to be loved but he likes being feared even more. This can get you far in politics, indeed has got him to the top. When that love fades and the fear goes – and they will, one day – his fall will be worth watching."

    Julian Lewis showed no fear...

    He may be the first. He will not be the last.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,496
    Boris - Give me a call! - cheers, Roger S.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,496
    FPT

    TimT said:
    » show previous quotes
    I believe that is right, but I am worried about the prospect of opinion shifting rapidly to prioritize the economy if independents believe an effective vaccine is/will be available shortly. Put me in the category of worrywart if that helps.
    Well, reckon that 78 years ago in July 1932 just after Dem National Convention, Louis Howe & Jim Farley were worried about the outlook for the general.

    As they say, many a slip between the cup and the lip!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Excellent piece as per Cyclefree, won't comment much because like Peter Foster my eyes are bleeding from the irony.

    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1283814116885495810
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Talking about the continued incompetence of the disgraced national security risk that is Priti Patel

    https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1283810100818448386
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited July 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    Well given Valencia went into lockdown on 15/3 and the rest of Spain on 17/3 and I was suggesting on here the UK steal a march and do likewise it clearly did not go into lockdown on 16/3. Some people with foresight may have taken their own actions but the country as a whole dis not.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    I must be a loony in that case
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,026
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    nichomar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well given Valencia went into lockdown on 15/3 and the rest of Spain on 17/3 and I was suggesting on here the UK steal a march and do likewise it clearly did not go into lockdown on 16/3. Some people with foresight may have taken their own actions but the country as a whole dis not.
    16 March was "don't go to work". I was in London that day and my train was pretty empty so plenty had already started to do that. And the pubs were still open but people were told not to go, which admittedly, was weird.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    I must be a loony in that case
    Well, yes, I think that's been obvious for some time.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    edited July 2020
    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.
  • Options
    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Diagnosticados últimas 24 horas: 580 Diagnosticados últimos 7 días: 5128 Diagnosticados últimos 14 días: 8313 Incidencia Acumulada (IA): 17,68 Número reproductivo básico (Rt): 0,9
    Fallecidos:28.416
    Fallecidos últimos 7 días: 9
    Recuperados:18-05-2020150.376
    Hospitalizados: 125.881 Hospitalizados últimos 7 días: 196 UCI: 11.726 UCI últimos 7 días: 17
    PCR totales: 2.536.234
    PCR/1000 hab: 53,8 Incremento capacidad PCR última semana: 14%

    Problems n Spain although bulk of problem in Catalonia and Aragon

    Another new outbreak in Alicante, this time Benidorm but limited to three cases. There is a group of holiday makers outside playing boules in the park behaving like footballers without a mask between them, selfish bastards.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Anyhoo, so what happens if Boris Johnson goes against this?

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1283818014916452357
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    edited July 2020

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work made work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
  • Options

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    Friday 27/03/2020 Cummings f***s off to Durham.
    Sunday 12/04/2020 Lockdown eases to allow self-administered eye-tests involving driving to beauty spots.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
  • Options
    matthiasfromhamburgmatthiasfromhamburg Posts: 957
    edited July 2020
    ...
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    They still haven't worked out what is meant by 'epidemic curve' yet.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    It's a very good question. I'm a little miffed that I wasn't told to work from home. We were told to take our laptops home just in case the guidance changed over night, but they only ever said speak to your line manager if you have any concerns. Not good.

    The cynic in me thinks it's because they know that once the home working genie is out of the bottle, it's going to be very hard to put it back in. We could all be vaccinated against COVID-19 next year and the damage will be done, in my opinion.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,496
    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Wonder IF the Chief Whip will tell the House that Lewis pledged himself to vote for Grayling, as is alleged?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    They still haven't worked out what is meant by 'epidemic curve' yet.
    I enjoyed seeing something that is concurrently a curve and a plateau.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    Because companies can and should act quicker on their own discretion than governmental changes to the law that affect everyone.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Alistair said:
    But the lockdown had started. It may not have been at the most restrictive setting, but it had started.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235
    edited July 2020

    Really good info here on cases per local micro areas:

    https://phe.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=47574f7a6e454dc6a42c5f6912ed7076

    Its shows how most of the country is now effectively covid free - something which might bring relief to the house cowerers.

    Even in infection hotspots the contrast between areas only a mile apart is striking.

    The problem with that map is that it doesn't show history and the day-to-day changes

    What the following shows is that, yes, COVID is at very, very low levels in most of the country. But it isn't gone. Look at those 1 and 2s popping up at random. It's still there.....

    image
    But the 1s and 2s aren't turning into 10s and 20s - which suggests low levels of transmission when someone does have it.
    Because it is being suppressed to a low level.

    The problem is asymptomatic cases - if someone doesn't know they have it, and passes it on to someone who doesn't get symptoms either... nothing above the surface.

    This is what happened with the resurgence in Wuhan.

    The idea that it will go away and we will all return to things as before is wrong. Unless there is a vaccine.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    Because companies can and should act quicker on their own discretion than governmental changes to the law that affect everyone.
    Should the Civil Service have acted quicker than the government?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    tlg86 said:

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    It's a very good question. I'm a little miffed that I wasn't told to work from home. We were told to take our laptops home just in case the guidance changed over night, but they only ever said speak to your line manager if you have any concerns. Not good.

    The cynic in me thinks it's because they know that once the home working genie is out of the bottle, it's going to be very hard to put it back in. We could all be vaccinated against COVID-19 next year and the damage will be done, in my opinion.
    All told, I would like to go back to the office, maybe WFH a few days a month.

    I have to admit I do miss the office interactions with my staff.

    Plus with WFH, I have a lot more distractions, like most of us with children under age of 14.

    We all had an informal chat (a team of 12 of us) last week and most of us want to get back to the office when it is safe.

    I think working in a city centre also has great attractions if you like shopping.
  • Options
    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,362
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    My personal *guess* is that 2 big effects on transmission are -

    - people doing *some* personal distancing
    - lockdown breaking up group meeting regularly, with people bridging between groups.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235
    rcs1000 said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    I must be a loony in that case
    Well, yes, I think that's been obvious for some time.
    To be fair, that's only when cask strength turnip juice is involved.
  • Options
    SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 15,496
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    tlg86 said:

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    It's a very good question. I'm a little miffed that I wasn't told to work from home. We were told to take our laptops home just in case the guidance changed over night, but they only ever said speak to your line manager if you have any concerns. Not good.

    The cynic in me thinks it's because they know that once the home working genie is out of the bottle, it's going to be very hard to put it back in. We could all be vaccinated against COVID-19 next year and the damage will be done, in my opinion.
    All told, I would like to go back to the office, maybe WFH a few days a month.

    I have to admit I do miss the office interactions with my staff.

    Plus with WFH, I have a lot more distractions, like most of us with children under age of 14.

    We all had an informal chat (a team of 12 of us) last week and most of us want to get back to the office when it is safe.

    I think working in a city centre also has great attractions if you like shopping.
    Not a single member of my team wants to return to office
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    They still haven't worked out what is meant by 'epidemic curve' yet.
    I enjoyed seeing something that is concurrently a curve and a plateau.
    Weeeeeell, a "curve" in stats doesn't have to be continuous or actually curved.

    So there's that. But the rest is still bollocks.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    Because companies can and should act quicker on their own discretion than governmental changes to the law that affect everyone.
    and they want to avoid being sued
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    They still haven't worked out what is meant by 'epidemic curve' yet.
    I enjoyed seeing something that is concurrently a curve and a plateau.
    Weeeeeell, a "curve" in stats doesn't have to be continuous or actually curved.

    So there's that. But the rest is still bollocks.
    Well I'm reminded of my A Level furthers Maths when I saw this.


  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235

    tlg86 said:

    The timeline is pretty straightforward:

    Monday 16/03/2020 "Everyone should avoid gatherings with friends and family, as well as large gatherings and crowded places, such as pubs, clubs and theatres... work from home if you can" -BJ
    Tuesday 17/03/2020 "We hope to keep deaths below 20,000" - Vallance; "although the measures already announced are extreme, we may need to go further and faster" (BJ) - London empties of commuters (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-51929558)
    Wednesday 18/03/2020 - Gov't announces all schools to close
    Friday 20/03/2020 - Gov't announces restaurants, pubs and gyms to close
    Monday 23/03/2020 - "From this evening I must give the British people a very simple instruction - you must stay at home."

    That was the week that was.

    We area dealing with fine margins. Unfortunately for all concerned fine margins may have cost lives. But there is a lot of hindsight going on here.

    The firm I work for home provisions about 10-14 days before the 16th, so the question is why my firm and so many other firms were making WFH pretty much mandatory before the government did?
    It's a very good question. I'm a little miffed that I wasn't told to work from home. We were told to take our laptops home just in case the guidance changed over night, but they only ever said speak to your line manager if you have any concerns. Not good.

    The cynic in me thinks it's because they know that once the home working genie is out of the bottle, it's going to be very hard to put it back in. We could all be vaccinated against COVID-19 next year and the damage will be done, in my opinion.
    All told, I would like to go back to the office, maybe WFH a few days a month.

    I have to admit I do miss the office interactions with my staff.

    Plus with WFH, I have a lot more distractions, like most of us with children under age of 14.

    We all had an informal chat (a team of 12 of us) last week and most of us want to get back to the office when it is safe.

    I think working in a city centre also has great attractions if you like shopping.
    From chatting with work and other people, there are....

    - a chunk of staff without proper facilities for home working. They want back to the office.
    - a chunk who want to come in 1 or 2 days a week. A senior guy told me that he has people pleading with him - distance from the family :-)
    - a chunk who live for Après Office - not finishing the day in the pub hurts.

    All in all, I think we are looking at teams coming in 1-2 days a week. But nothing much before Christmas, currently.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
  • Options

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I thought "misleading without actually lying" isn't so much a hanging offence for politicians as a job description?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294


    From chatting with work and other people, there are....

    - a chunk of staff without proper facilities for home working. They want back to the office.
    - a chunk who want to come in 1 or 2 days a week. A senior guy told me that he has people pleading with him - distance from the family :-)
    - a chunk who live for Après Office - not finishing the day in the pub hurts.

    All in all, I think we are looking at teams coming in 1-2 days a week. But nothing much before Christmas, currently.

    We're working on the assumption that we're not going back to the office until well into the New Year.

    One thing WFH has shown up the broadband divide.

    At home I have a 350 Mbps cable connection, a 72 Mbps fibre connection, and a couple of mobile phone connections of circa 20 Mbps.

    One of my staff has a 5 Mbps connection which she has two share with two other people, both of whom are currently furloughed.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    HYUFD said:
    A lot of shy Trump supporters in the Tory DKs, I reckon!
  • Options
    Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,379

    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    One thing it does highlight is that @NerysHughes's theory that hand washing advice alone did the trick is not correct and ignores the context of an inevitable drift towards a full lockdown.
    @NerysHughes is obviously high on crack, given the staggeringly obvious correlations (globally) between lockdowns and plunging Rs. And then - lo - if you remove lockdowns all at once, guess what?, CV-19 comes back.

    That's why the right choice is to SLOWLY remove restrictions, so you can make sure that R is not skyrocketing again. Because if you do it quickly, then you end up with another complete lockdown, which is far worse.
    You need to read more Covid Data Wrangler twitter accounts and blogs.

    There is a vast body of evidence (not actually evidence) that lockdown had no effect at all on R and indeed everything that is happening now is a perfectly normal seasonally/latitude adjusted epidemic curve.
    They still haven't worked out what is meant by 'epidemic curve' yet.
    I enjoyed seeing something that is concurrently a curve and a plateau.
    Weeeeeell, a "curve" in stats doesn't have to be continuous or actually curved.

    So there's that. But the rest is still bollocks.
    Well I'm reminded of my A Level furthers Maths when I saw this.


    bullocks?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059

    https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.

    It hasn't been a good day for Labour has it. Mr Raab outed the Labour Party as colluding with the Russians at the GE to undermine Boris too!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Oh God it really could happen.

    The Hammers get relegated because of a technology mistake involving Sheffield United and Villa.

    The reaction of the dildo brothers will be hysterical.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    edited July 2020
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    AFAIUI, Lewis is claiming that he never spoke to the Chief Whip, and that he doesn't use email and therefore didn't see an instruction from the CW.

    But even if he did see the email, failure to follow an instruction is not the same as lying.

    Now, if he spoke to the Chief Whip (or another member of the Whips office), and told them (or led them to believe) that he would vote for Grayling, and then reneged, then that is a serious offence (although, one would note, not one that usually results in expulsion from the party).

    But if he did not, then I find his expulsion troublesome, if ultimately forgiveable.

    What I find harder to accept, though, is that the government falsely claimed he lied to them. If you're going to fire someone for not actually lying, then surely heads should roll for - you know - actual lies.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    If the government's first response was to claim Smith was lying when he was not, I'd think that was slightly more worrying. The reflexive tactic of claiming that your opponent is committing the sin of which you are in fact guilty is pure Trumpery - 'they're the real fascists/racists/opponents of democracy etc'.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.

    It hasn't been a good day for Labour has it. Mr Raab outed the Labour Party as colluding with the Russians at the GE to undermine Boris too!
    Getting rid of Moyle is a good day for Labour. He should never have been appointed to the shadow team in the first place.

    His attempt to play the victim card in his resignation is, quite frankly, pathetic.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    When I hear Lloyd Russell, I think West Wing.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372
    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Whom would you be inclined to believe ... ?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059

    https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.

    It hasn't been a good day for Labour has it. Mr Raab outed the Labour Party as colluding with the Russians at the GE to undermine Boris too!
    Getting rid of Moyle is a good day for Labour. He should never have been appointed to the shadow team in the first place.

    His attempt to play the victim card in his resignation is, quite frankly, pathetic.
    I don't see how upsetting JK Rowling and the entire population of Israel can
    be seen as a good day for a party that Mr Raab has today implied was in league with Putin.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:
    It's the difference between advice and compulsion. Only the most loony would describe it as a "straight lie".
    True. This government can’t even lie straight.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.

    It hasn't been a good day for Labour has it. Mr Raab outed the Labour Party as colluding with the Russians at the GE to undermine Boris too!
    Getting rid of Moyle is a good day for Labour. He should never have been appointed to the shadow team in the first place.

    His attempt to play the victim card in his resignation is, quite frankly, pathetic.
    I don't see how upsetting JK Rowling and the entire population of Israel can
    be seen as a good day for a party that Mr Raab has today implied was in league with Putin.
    I don't know anything about JK Rowling or Israel today, but getting rid of Moyle will hurt Labour about as much as getting rid of Grayling hurts the Tories.
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    rcs1000 said:

    When I hear Lloyd Russell, I think West Wing.

    If only... if only...

    What's next?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    It's slightly less disgraceful when the games are happening at the same time and this is the culmination of a 38 game season. And Chelsea would be the "victims".
  • Options

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    It's slightly less disgraceful when the games are happening at the same time and this is the culmination of a 38 game season. And Chelsea would be the "victims".
    Chelsea eh? The only club whose fans who have racially/religiously abused me.

    I’d be gutted for them.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,235


    From chatting with work and other people, there are....

    - a chunk of staff without proper facilities for home working. They want back to the office.
    - a chunk who want to come in 1 or 2 days a week. A senior guy told me that he has people pleading with him - distance from the family :-)
    - a chunk who live for Après Office - not finishing the day in the pub hurts.

    All in all, I think we are looking at teams coming in 1-2 days a week. But nothing much before Christmas, currently.

    We're working on the assumption that we're not going back to the office until well into the New Year.

    One thing WFH has shown up the broadband divide.

    At home I have a 350 Mbps cable connection, a 72 Mbps fibre connection, and a couple of mobile phone connections of circa 20 Mbps.

    One of my staff has a 5 Mbps connection which she has two share with two other people, both of whom are currently furloughed.
    What's with your lack of connectivity?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    They're all at it.

    https://twitter.com/Zarkwan/status/1283806399500296192?s=20

    Poor kibble Kev, and him usually such a fan of IFS.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    It's slightly less disgraceful when the games are happening at the same time and this is the culmination of a 38 game season. And Chelsea would be the "victims".
    I don't want to see United gain, but don't care if Chelsea lose. Oh well.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,826
    Evening all :)

    A slight difference of opinion between Johnson and Vallance:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53436865

    I still think if the figures continue to look good, social distancing will be abandoned at the end of August and a big "let's get back to work" campaign will follow with Ministers telling us it is our "civic duty" to go back to the office.

    That's when the fight will really begin.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The GOP is going to do everything in their power to fuck with the mail ballot at the upcoming Presidential election.

    https://twitter.com/ElectProject/status/1283833970581540865
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,225
    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Alistair said:

    The GOP is going to do everything in their power to fuck with the mail ballot at the upcoming Presidential election.

    https://twitter.com/ElectProject/status/1283833970581540865

    And a corollary

    https://twitter.com/NormOrnstein/status/1283823281867567105
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited July 2020
    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
  • Options
    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    dr_spyn said:
    He still believes in *that* manifesto?

    Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...
  • Options
    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,590
    Charles said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
    The very first business in 1997 was to declare the Holyrood Parliament the continuation of that suspended in 1707. As Winnie Ewing formally declared, ‘The Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25 1707, is hereby reconvened.’
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,059
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A slight difference of opinion between Johnson and Vallance:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53436865

    I still think if the figures continue to look good, social distancing will be abandoned at the end of August and a big "let's get back to work" campaign will follow with Ministers telling us it is our "civic duty" to go back to the office.

    That's when the fight will really begin.

    The penny has just dropped and Vallance now realises he is the fall guy.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    glw said:

    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

    I do wonder what China's response to TSMC blocking their national champion is going to be. At a stroke they've lost access to the most advanced process nodes at TSMC and Samsung. Chinese silicon fabrication is nowhere near that level and with the US sanctions in place it's going to be very, very difficult for them to get there without US help.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
  • Options
    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,802

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I vaguely remember Coventry City and Bristol City doing the same thing back in the day.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    AFAIUI, Lewis is claiming that he never spoke to the Chief Whip, and that he doesn't use email and therefore didn't see an instruction from the CW.

    But even if he did see the email, failure to follow an instruction is not the same as lying.

    Now, if he spoke to the Chief Whip (or another member of the Whips office), and told them (or led them to believe) that he would vote for Grayling, and then reneged, then that is a serious offence (although, one would note, not one that usually results in expulsion from the party).

    But if he did not, then I find his expulsion troublesome, if ultimately forgiveable.

    What I find harder to accept, though, is that the government falsely claimed he lied to them. If you're going to fire someone for not actually lying, then surely heads should roll for - you know - actual lies.
    On the radio this morning they were saying that he’d made a commitment to vote for grayling. I suppose that could be a generalised commitment from being a member of the party...
  • Options

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

    I do wonder what China's response to TSMC blocking their national champion is going to be. At a stroke they've lost access to the most advanced process nodes at TSMC and Samsung. Chinese silicon fabrication is nowhere near that level and with the US sanctions in place it's going to be very, very difficult for them to get there without US help.
    I've no doubt that in 10 years time the most advanced processors, and most advanced fabs will be Chinese. China will get there at any cost. This was already the Chinese plan, US actions really have proved them right that they need to have a sovereign semiconductor industry.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,967
    edited July 2020

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    That was a fabulous French side. At least the equal of the one that won the WC in 1998. The final ought to have been France v Brazil, rather than Germany V Italy.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,922
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

    I do wonder what China's response to TSMC blocking their national champion is going to be. At a stroke they've lost access to the most advanced process nodes at TSMC and Samsung. Chinese silicon fabrication is nowhere near that level and with the US sanctions in place it's going to be very, very difficult for them to get there without US help.
    SMIC is not bad these days, and UMC continues to work with Huawei (for now). So I'm not convinced that Huawei will be slowed down that much.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,966
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
    The very first business in 1997 was to declare the Holyrood Parliament the continuation of that suspended in 1707. As Winnie Ewing formally declared, ‘The Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25 1707, is hereby reconvened.’
    Come now, that's not an issue for folk in Scotland to decide.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,826
    Very impressive from Spain:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-53435505/spanish-king-leads-memorial-to-victims-of-covid-19

    I'd like to think the more than 60,000 dead from Covid-19 in the UK won't be forgotten in the rush to get back to desks, Pret a Manger and the pub.

    Instead of just showing as lines on a graph or a spreadsheet, each individual is a tragedy and we need to remember we haven't "won" a victory over the virus. The virus has beaten us - not just the dead but those whose health has been seriously and perhaps permanently affected even if they have survived the immediate crisis.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,967

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
    No, it was the 82 semi-final. One wonders what VAR would have made of it.
This discussion has been closed.