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  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A slight difference of opinion between Johnson and Vallance:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53436865

    I still think if the figures continue to look good, social distancing will be abandoned at the end of August and a big "let's get back to work" campaign will follow with Ministers telling us it is our "civic duty" to go back to the office.

    That's when the fight will really begin.

    Not so easy to pin the blame on Vallance for Lockdown 2 if the pair of them diverge.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
    The very first business in 1997 was to declare the Holyrood Parliament the continuation of that suspended in 1707. As Winnie Ewing formally declared, ‘The Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25 1707, is hereby reconvened.’
    But was that authorised by statute or not?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
    Nah it was at the 82 World Cup.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/may/27/world-cup-25-stunning-moments-patrick-battiston
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Don't go to Westminster then.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
    No, it was the 82 semi-final. One wonders what VAR would have made of it.
    Not a clear and obvious error.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Don't go to Westminster then.
    I don’t.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
    No, it was the 82 semi-final. One wonders what VAR would have made of it.
    Mike Riley's mob would have awarded a free kick to West Germany and sent off Battison.
  • PMQs verdict?
  • tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    That was a fabulous French side. At least the equal of the one that won the WC in 1998. The final ought to have been France v Brazil, rather than Germany V Italy.
    As I said above, the Schumacher/Battiston foul was at EURO84.

    At FIFA82 France had a great squad indeed, Platini, Tresor, Tigana, Giresse.
    But Italy was a deserving finalist and winner with Rossi, Conti, Tardelli, Altobelli and the geat Dino Zoff. Our side was lucky and less deserving, admittedly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:
    But the lockdown had started. It may not have been at the most restrictive setting, but it had started.
    More of a latchdown than a lockdown.

    Pubs were offering Covid drinks promotions and tubes and trains were still full of unmasked commuters.
  • tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    I think it's his foul on Battiston that you remember. That was at EURO 84.
    Nah it was at the 82 World Cup.

    https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/may/27/world-cup-25-stunning-moments-patrick-battiston
    I stand corrected. How embarrassing.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    That was a fabulous French side. At least the equal of the one that won the WC in 1998. The final ought to have been France v Brazil, rather than Germany V Italy.
    As I said above, the Schumacher/Battiston foul was at EURO84.

    At FIFA82 France had a great squad indeed, Platini, Tresor, Tigana, Giresse.
    But Italy was a deserving finalist and winner with Rossi, Conti, Tardelli, Altobelli and the geat Dino Zoff. Our side was lucky and less deserving, admittedly.
    Admittedly, Tardelli’s was the greatest goal celebration of all time. But 82 it was, as the article posted by TSE makes clear.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

    I do wonder what China's response to TSMC blocking their national champion is going to be. At a stroke they've lost access to the most advanced process nodes at TSMC and Samsung. Chinese silicon fabrication is nowhere near that level and with the US sanctions in place it's going to be very, very difficult for them to get there without US help.
    SMIC is not bad these days, and UMC continues to work with Huawei (for now). So I'm not convinced that Huawei will be slowed down that much.
    Neither of those have got 7nm processes anywhere near completion. The issue for Huawei won't be the infrastructure side, it will be their consumer phone divisions where their Kirin processors will move from TSMC 7nm to some undefined 14nm process at UMC or SMIC. At the same time Samsung are pushing 5nm and Apple will be using the TSMC 5nm process for the iPhone 12.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:
    Georgia's death still uncoupled from their rise in cases. Unless the provisional data is about to be revised way the fuck up.
  • tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    That was a fabulous French side. At least the equal of the one that won the WC in 1998. The final ought to have been France v Brazil, rather than Germany V Italy.
    As I said above, the Schumacher/Battiston foul was at EURO84.

    At FIFA82 France had a great squad indeed, Platini, Tresor, Tigana, Giresse.
    But Italy was a deserving finalist and winner with Rossi, Conti, Tardelli, Altobelli and the geat Dino Zoff. Our side was lucky and less deserving, admittedly.
    No, it was Espana 82. Watched it live. Genuinely thought Battiston might die
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    edited July 2020
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Regarding Huawei, here's the component supply problem that the UK government is worried about.

    TSMC plans to halt chip supplies to Huawei in 2 months
    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Huawei-crackdown/TSMC-plans-to-halt-chip-supplies-to-Huawei-in-2-months

    I do wonder what China's response to TSMC blocking their national champion is going to be. At a stroke they've lost access to the most advanced process nodes at TSMC and Samsung. Chinese silicon fabrication is nowhere near that level and with the US sanctions in place it's going to be very, very difficult for them to get there without US help.
    SMIC is not bad these days, and UMC continues to work with Huawei (for now). So I'm not convinced that Huawei will be slowed down that much.
    Neither of those have got 7nm processes anywhere near completion. The issue for Huawei won't be the infrastructure side, it will be their consumer phone divisions where their Kirin processors will move from TSMC 7nm to some undefined 14nm process at UMC or SMIC. At the same time Samsung are pushing 5nm and Apple will be using the TSMC 5nm process for the iPhone 12.
    Fair point.

    Glad I got my Mate XS before they got cut off.
  • https://order-order.com/2020/07/16/lloyd-russell-moyle-resigns/

    Shame he hasn't resigned as MP as well.

    Anyone know what story was about to break about him? There is clearly something else going on.

    It hasn't been a good day for Labour has it. Mr Raab outed the Labour Party as colluding with the Russians at the GE to undermine Boris too!
    Getting rid of Moyle is a good day for Labour. He should never have been appointed to the shadow team in the first place.

    His attempt to play the victim card in his resignation is, quite frankly, pathetic.
    Do we think it is down to a) implicated in the AS report or b) a scary lawyer's letter from JK Rowling?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,533
    Charles said:
    It's another illustration of the Yes Minister point that it depends how you ask the question. a solid 56% like the monarchy, which involves... choosing a leader by borthright. And if the current leader passes on and the nexct inherits by birthright, as per the system, then 11% peel off, they don't like that sort of monarchy.

    And apparently 27% don't mind either way.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    edited July 2020

    Charles said:
    It's another illustration of the Yes Minister point that it depends how you ask the question. a solid 56% like the monarchy, which involves... choosing a leader by borthright. And if the current leader passes on and the nexct inherits by birthright, as per the system, then 11% peel off, they don't like that sort of monarchy.

    And apparently 27% don't mind either way.
    I'd be interested to see the class divide on the capital punishment question. Something tells me it would be rather large.
  • tlg86 said:

    Bugger.

    The spanners are staying up.

    There's a much more fun scenario developing in the race for the Top 4. Leicester win at Spurs, Man Utd win at Palace and at home to West Ham, and Chelsea lose at Liverpool. Those results would give Man Utd and Leicester a two point lead over Chelsea. Given both have a superior goal difference over Chelsea, a draw would be sufficient for both teams to make the Top 4.
    The disgrace of Gijón of all over again.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgrace_of_Gijón
    I remember that vividly, but were you even alive then?
    I was 3 and three quarter years old at the time of the 1982 World Cup.

    I do remember watching a few shows on that World Cup later in my life.

    I think Harald Schumacher’s assault on the French player later in the tournament still makes me wince.
    That was a fabulous French side. At least the equal of the one that won the WC in 1998. The final ought to have been France v Brazil, rather than Germany V Italy.
    As I said above, the Schumacher/Battiston foul was at EURO84.

    At FIFA82 France had a great squad indeed, Platini, Tresor, Tigana, Giresse.
    But Italy was a deserving finalist and winner with Rossi, Conti, Tardelli, Altobelli and the geat Dino Zoff. Our side was lucky and less deserving, admittedly.
    Admittedly, Tardelli’s was the greatest goal celebration of all time. But 82 it was, as the article posted by TSE makes clear.
    Yep, I stand corrected. The Italian squad was great indeed. ITA/FRA or ITA/BRA would have been deserving finals, in my view. I've always liked defensive, counterattacking football.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,036
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A slight difference of opinion between Johnson and Vallance:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53436865

    I still think if the figures continue to look good, social distancing will be abandoned at the end of August and a big "let's get back to work" campaign will follow with Ministers telling us it is our "civic duty" to go back to the office.

    That's when the fight will really begin.

    Will the Secretary of State for Pret make the announcement?

    Government appears to be centred on the interests of the sandwich chain these days.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    A slight difference of opinion between Johnson and Vallance:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53436865

    I still think if the figures continue to look good, social distancing will be abandoned at the end of August and a big "let's get back to work" campaign will follow with Ministers telling us it is our "civic duty" to go back to the office.

    That's when the fight will really begin.

    Will the Secretary of State for Pret make the announcement?

    Government appears to be centred on the interests of the sandwich chain these days.
    Howaay in a Manger
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    Careful.

    There are some PBers who probably think that for real.

    Lots of old-fashioned authoritarians on here, both right and ‘left’.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905
    And anybody else they don't like the look of.... Anybody who is law-abiding, for example....

    Is that what you mean, Mr Eagles? Seriously?


  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ClippP said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
    I would have said that Profumo was verging on the criminal. He was Minister of Defence and was sharing a whore with a Russian spy. This at the height of the Cold War.

    And yet Charles sees him as "a good man". It is the same sense of entitlement that we see again today among the Tory toffs who hang around government as part of the Johnson clique. All jolly good fun, eh chaps?
    Look at the work he did for Toynbee Hall. Or Longford’s view that he had more admiration for Profumo than all the rest of the men he’d known in his life.

    The guy made a mistake and shagged a pretty girl. He spent 40 years working for charity. In my eyes that makes him a good man.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    edited July 2020

    Careful.

    There are some PBers who probably think that for real.

    Lots of old-fashioned authoritarians on here, both right and ‘left’.
    Tough on pandemics, tough on the causes of pandemics.

    Only Russian trolls wants the virus to spread in the UK.

    So comrade, how many roubles a month is Russia paying you?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    If it wasn't for VAR Manchester United would be middle table.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    ClippP said:

    And anybody else they don't like the look of.... Anybody who is law-abiding, for example....

    Is that what you mean, Mr Eagles? Seriously?


    Call it the Jeremy Thorpe principle, you Liberals will love that right?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,680
    ClippP said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
    I would have said that Profumo was verging on the criminal. He was Minister of Defence and was sharing a whore with a Russian spy. This at the height of the Cold War.

    And yet Charles sees him as "a good man". It is the same sense of entitlement that we see again today among the Tory toffs who hang around government as part of the Johnson clique. All jolly good fun, eh chaps?
    Profumo's reckless lust also humiliated his poor wife and brought about Stephen Ward's suicide.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    edited July 2020
    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his Premiership). I think he needs time, after all he has still not recovered from Covid19.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this in Dec 1997.. 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out later he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).

    We're a year into the premiership of Boris Johnson.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486
    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,002

    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.

    But we are many years into his career.

    We know he comes up with grand schemes that are never delivered.

    We know he lies more easily than breathing.

    He doesn't need any more time to show us just what a shit he really is.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,600
    edited July 2020
    "How objectivity in journalism became a matter of opinion

    In America, political and commercial strains have led to questions about its value and meaning" (£)

    https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2020/07/16/how-objectivity-in-journalism-became-a-matter-of-opinion
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his Premiership). I think he needs time, after all he has still not recovered from Covid19.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this in Dec 1997.. 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out later he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).

    24/7/19 to 16/7/20 is 7 months!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,486

    Careful.

    There are some PBers who probably think that for real.

    Lots of old-fashioned authoritarians on here, both right and ‘left’.
    Tough on pandemics, tough on the causes of pandemics.

    Only Russian trolls wants the virus to spread in the UK.

    So comrade, how many roubles a month is Russia paying you?
    I was on here advocating immediate lockdown long before bumbling Bozza pulled his finger out.

    Now, a degree of rationality and reconciliation would be welcome.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,905

    ClippP said:

    And anybody else they don't like the look of.... Anybody who is law-abiding, for example....
    Is that what you mean, Mr Eagles? Seriously?
    Call it the Jeremy Thorpe principle, you Liberals will love that right?
    I don't remember that Jeremy Thorpe went round praising and promoting gangsters and murderers. You Tories do have a twisted sense of fun.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Unless they’re in charge ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    If there was an election tomorrow then Biden should win but given Biden is still not over 50% in most polls there are still a lot of undecideds or 'silent' Trump voters who could change things and we still have the conventions and debates and most of the ad war to come (and no I am not a Trumpton)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Charles said:

    ClippP said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
    I would have said that Profumo was verging on the criminal. He was Minister of Defence and was sharing a whore with a Russian spy. This at the height of the Cold War.

    And yet Charles sees him as "a good man". It is the same sense of entitlement that we see again today among the Tory toffs who hang around government as part of the Johnson clique. All jolly good fun, eh chaps?
    Look at the work he did for Toynbee Hall. Or Longford’s view that he had more admiration for Profumo than all the rest of the men he’d known in his life.

    The guy made a mistake and shagged a pretty girl. He spent 40 years working for charity. In my eyes that makes him a good man.
    Profumo does have the edge on much of the current Cabinet certainly. He resigned when he was found out to be lying, and didn't attempt to either re enter politics nor to cash in on his notorious part in the scandal.

    His modern equivalent would brazen it out and become PM.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    ClippP said:

    ClippP said:

    And anybody else they don't like the look of.... Anybody who is law-abiding, for example....
    Is that what you mean, Mr Eagles? Seriously?
    Call it the Jeremy Thorpe principle, you Liberals will love that right?
    I don't remember that Jeremy Thorpe went round praising and promoting gangsters and murderers. You Tories do have a twisted sense of fun.
    Rinka the dog says hello.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).

    We're a year into the premiership of Boris Johnson.
    7 months into majority premiership though.

    There's a world of difference between minority and majority politics.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,720
    Scott_xP said:
    so are they saying that the red truck is running empty, with no content?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176

    If it wasn't for VAR Manchester United would be middle table.

    It's stopped being funny.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729

    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).

    We're a year into the premiership of Boris Johnson.
    7 months into majority premiership though.

    There's a world of difference between minority and majority politics.
    Indeed , and for half of his Premiership since the GE he has been unwell..
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Unless they’re in charge ?
    Nope. There are few politicians I like, and certainly not the current bunch of reprobates.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
    Believe history supports you. Politicos are like medieval villagers, they shun anyone with even a taint of leprosy for fear they will (and sometimes deserve) to catch it.

    BUT at least he found out who his real friends were.

    AND let it never be forgotten, Jack Profumo was one of the MPs who rebelled against the whip at the conclusion of the Norway Debate, May 1940, which led directly to the resignation of Neville Chamberlain and the establishment of the wartime coalition under Winston Churchill.

    Like the saying goes - you can't take THAT away from him.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Carnyx said:

    Charles said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
    The very first business in 1997 was to declare the Holyrood Parliament the continuation of that suspended in 1707. As Winnie Ewing formally declared, ‘The Scottish Parliament, which adjourned on March 25 1707, is hereby reconvened.’
    Come now, that's not an issue for folk in Scotland to decide.
    As then leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Johann Lamont, once memorably said: “We are not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions.”
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    edited July 2020

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Nigelb said:
    It's not as if there's a secret sauce in the vaccine, is there?
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Scott_xP said:

    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.

    But we are many years into his career.

    We know he comes up with grand schemes that are never delivered.

    We know he lies more easily than breathing.

    He doesn't need any more time to show us just what a shit he really is.
    He kept the megashit that was Ken Livingstone out of power, something to be very grateful for.

    Have you ever met a politician who did not lie? You are far too precious, especially when governed by your own political views.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675
    tlg86 said:

    If it wasn't for VAR Manchester United would be middle table.

    It's stopped being funny.
    Yup, at least FIFA and Collina are taking control of VAR next season, I'm hoping for an improvement.

    I mean it works everywhere else, so no more Mike Riley calling the shots will help.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,766
    https://twitter.com/BeckettUnite/status/1283838922179653632

    Unite TV?

    Don't say we haven't been warned! :smiley:
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    tlg86 said:

    If it wasn't for VAR Manchester United would be middle table.

    It's stopped being funny.
    Yup, at least FIFA and Collina are taking control of VAR next season, I'm hoping for an improvement.

    I mean it works everywhere else, so no more Mike Riley calling the shots will help.
    What's changing next season? No more Stockley Park?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    ClippP said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    IF that is in fact the case, then isn't still the Chief Whip's job to have sussed that out?

    In Profumo case, government could have saved itself a LOT of grief IF they had asked the minister the right questions - and enough of them - at the critical juncture. Instead, they rushed it & muffed it.

    "Well they would, wouldn't they?" - Mandy Rice Davies
    Jack was a good man. His ostracism was verging on the criminal
    I would have said that Profumo was verging on the criminal. He was Minister of Defence and was sharing a whore with a Russian spy. This at the height of the Cold War.

    And yet Charles sees him as "a good man". It is the same sense of entitlement that we see again today among the Tory toffs who hang around government as part of the Johnson clique. All jolly good fun, eh chaps?
    The entire security risk angle was VERY weak beer. As noted by perceptive observers right from the get go; for example imagined pillow talk re: nuclear throw-weights and other esoterica wa beyond Miss Keeler's ken.

    BUT given Cold War in general and number of previous spy-sex scandals in particular, it was stupid. But hardly criminal. And the only "special privilege" that Mr Profumo was seeking, was that of having a fling with an available woman who plenty of guys found exceedingly attractive.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,675

    tlg86 said:

    If it wasn't for VAR Manchester United would be middle table.

    It's stopped being funny.
    Yup, at least FIFA and Collina are taking control of VAR next season, I'm hoping for an improvement.

    I mean it works everywhere else, so no more Mike Riley calling the shots will help.
    What's changing next season? No more Stockley Park?
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/07/09/premier-league-will-have-fall-line-fifa-takes-control-var-protocols/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    Scott_xP said:
    What a dumb stunt. At least Boris going through a wall in a bulldozer was visually interesting, if silly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,139
    edited July 2020
    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    Indeed, let us not forget that since WW2 there have been 6 occasions when the presidential candidate who led at least half the polls or more in July of election year lost the presidential election, July 1948 when Dewey led Truman, July 1968 when Humphrey led Nixon in half the polls, July 1980 when Carter led Reagan in half the polls, July 1988 when Dukakis led Bush Snr and July 2004 when Kerry led George W Bush and of course July 2016 when Hillary led Trump.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_polling_for_United_States_presidential_elections

    It is still a long way to November
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    edited July 2020
    Am I alone in finding the inevitable election of doddery Joe Biden quite infinitely depressing? And only outweighed by the even-worse alternative?

    What a time for the USA, the leader of the Free World, to come up with this terrible choice of feckwits.

    The West needs a vigorous, liberal leader. A hero. Someone willing to stand up to China and Russia, Instead, we have two old men who can barely speak coherently, who are differentiated only by one being, amazingly, even worse than the other.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Unless they’re in charge ?
    Nope. There are few politicians I like, and certainly not the current bunch of reprobates.
    Understood. You don’t like, but will defend, the duplicitous snakes in charge.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
    The newt limning world seems quite...racy.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    If Biden does win Florida, then it's very hard to see how Trump remains President. That being said... let's not forget than in 2018, Florida returned a Republican Governor and a Republican Senator. The state shows no signs of being (even semi-reliably) Blue.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    LadyG said:

    Am I alone in finding the inevitable election of doddery Joe Biden quite infinitely depressing? And only outweighed by the even-worse alternative?

    What a time for the USA, the leader of the Free World, to come up with this terrible choice of feckwits.

    The West needs a vigorous, liberal leader. A hero. Someone willing to stand up to China and Russia, Instead, we have two old men who can barely speak coherently, who are differentiated only by one being, amazingly, even worse than the other.
    Unfortunately Nick Clegg is barred due to not being a US citizen.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
    Sounds like E & M were trolling (the old fashioned way) for business.

    It's rich, high-society types with money or access to those with money who were the focus of the customer side of their business model.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
    The newt limning world seems quite...racy.
    I once strayed into watercolour portraiture of the slow-worm. Never again.

    Lesson learned!
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Charles said:

    FPT

    RobD said:

    Scotland also cannot declare independence without the permission of the UK. The position is the same.

    Yes it can. How would rUK stop it? They won't just declare UDI. There will be an election. Then a referendum. Then a result. If the Scottish government is elected on a platform of Indyref2 and then Indyref2 votes for Independence what specifically can rUK do to stop it?

    There are two Acts of Union - English and Scottish. The Scottish one was passed in the Scottish Parliament. It absolutely can be dissolved in the Scottish Parliament. Are you suggesting the British Army should be deployed to arrest the SNP leadership to prevent that from happening?
    Philosophically that’s an interesting question (I don’t have a view one way or the other).

    AIUI the Scottish Parliament decided to dissolve itself and merge with the Westminster Parliament with Scotland sending representatives to sit in the U.K. Parliament

    Some years later, the U.K. parliament votes to create a devolved Parliament at Holyrood which has certain prescribed powers with other powers reserved to Westminster.

    It does not follow that Holyrood is a recreation of the original Scottish Parliament, but it’s instead a devolved body from Westminster. Hence I don’t think that it can “just dissolve the Union”.

    That’s not to saw that Scotland can’t go down UDI route if it wants to, but I don’t think it can claim to be acting within the law if it does
    Any attempt at UDI would probably result in a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate refusing to accept the authority of the Holyrood executive whilst continuing to show loyalty to Westminster. Chaos might well ensue producing conditions where it became reasonable for the UK Government to follow the example of the Heath Government in Spring 1972 when Direct Rule was imposed on Stormont.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    109 days.

    That's how long there is left. And the US economy is worsening again - particularly in Florida, Arizona, Texas and Georgia.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    If Biden does win Florida, then it's very hard to see how Trump remains President. That being said... let's not forget than in 2018, Florida returned a Republican Governor and a Republican Senator. The state shows no signs of being (even semi-reliably) Blue.
    Miami & South Florida current epicenter of Covid in USA.

    Also, note the electoral power of Sunshine State's disproportionate number of geezers - a group that was one of Trumpsky's best in 2016, but which is heavily impacted by the Crud, and which polling shows is becoming seriously disaffected from our Fearless Leader.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    If Biden does win Florida, then it's very hard to see how Trump remains President. That being said... let's not forget than in 2018, Florida returned a Republican Governor and a Republican Senator. The state shows no signs of being (even semi-reliably) Blue.
    Miami & South Florida current epicenter of Covid in USA.

    Also, note the electoral power of Sunshine State's disproportionate number of geezers - a group that was one of Trumpsky's best in 2016, but which is heavily impacted by the Crud, and which polling shows is becoming seriously disaffected from our Fearless Leader.
    Yes. If Trumpski loses, it will be because he failed the oldies re CV-19.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    stodge said:

    I’m a Trump opponent who cannot see past a Trump victory.

    But...

    Trump hasn’t led an FL poll since 12 March.

    That’s quite something.

    What are the views of the PB Trumptons? @MrEd @HYUFD @Luckyguy1983 @Ave_it

    ?

    I'm no fan of Trump but assuming the result of an election in November from polls in July seems to be foolish.

    Back in 1988 Dukakis led George W Bush at this time but was comfortably beaten 54-46 on polling day.

    In 2016 the polls were more volatile and indeed let's not forget Clinton won the popular vote 48-46 but the votes weren't where she needed them.

    The other concern (and this is why I try to check the crosstabs) is the polls are oversampling pro-Democratic groups and undersampling pro-Republican groups. Now, I suspect after what happened last time the polling organisations have tightened their sampling and methodology but there's a worry "shy Trump" votes aren't showing up and the headlines are artificially strong for Biden.

    We've also got the issue of vote distribution - if all Biden is doing is piling up votes in the North East and West Trump still has a chance - that's why I look at the Midwest and South numbers on the national polls and of course State polls may be more informative.

    There are really only ten states at most which matter - Biden won't win Oklahoma and Trump won't win Delaware. The "swing" states have big EC numbers especially Florida but also Pennsylvania. Just by gaining those Biden converts a 306-232 electoral college deficit to a 281-257 lead. In short, Trump needs to hold almost everything he won last time while Biden will win comfortably with three or four of the right pick ups.

    Add Michigan, Wisconsin and Arizona and Biden wins 318-220.
    If Biden does win Florida, then it's very hard to see how Trump remains President. That being said... let's not forget than in 2018, Florida returned a Republican Governor and a Republican Senator. The state shows no signs of being (even semi-reliably) Blue.
    Miami & South Florida current epicenter of Covid in USA.

    Also, note the electoral power of Sunshine State's disproportionate number of geezers - a group that was one of Trumpsky's best in 2016, but which is heavily impacted by the Crud, and which polling shows is becoming seriously disaffected from our Fearless Leader.
    Yes. If Trumpski loses, it will be because he failed the oldies re CV-19.
    Of course he HAS been thinning out the seniors - talk about yer voter suppression!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I doubt it's that many people...
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    10:35 PM With coronavirus cases on the rise in 39 of the 50 US states, Arizona and Texas are preparing for the worst and have started to mobilize refrigerated trucks to use them as temporary morgues as the number of burials multiplies. In the Arizonian county of Maricopa, the one with the most cases in the entire state, the medical examiner's office plans to start using four refrigerated trucks this Thursday, since
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    I've looked at it. And it SEEMS to be true. Caveat Emptor

    But if is true, we may have unjustifiably scared ourselves into a Great Depression
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,222
    It’s not big pharma that’s growing rich on the back of the pandemic...

    https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/1283801640881930242
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Dad just back from the pub. It was absolutely dead; only a couple of people in there.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    Would be a welcome downward revision.

    This why the PHE figures vary substantially from day to day. For example, 16 new deaths were announced on 6th July, but the following day, 152 were reported – today’s figure is 66.

    Aren't the low numbers just due to the weekend? There are two low numbers every week.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Anyone using anything other than overall excess mortality numbers to calculate the impact of CV-19 is an idiot.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,935
    nichomar said:

    10:35 PM With coronavirus cases on the rise in 39 of the 50 US states, Arizona and Texas are preparing for the worst and have started to mobilize refrigerated trucks to use them as temporary morgues as the number of burials multiplies. In the Arizonian county of Maricopa, the one with the most cases in the entire state, the medical examiner's office plans to start using four refrigerated trucks this Thursday, since

    Two thirds of the population of Arizona live in Maricopa county. Not too surprising it has the most cases!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    4 El Real Madrid se ha proclamado campeón de LaLiga Santander tras ganar al Villarreal por 2-1. El equipo ha pedido a los aficionados que no vayan a Cibeles a celebrar la victoria, una petición que por el momento se está respetando
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
    I can see all this heading toward the revelation that she was abused by her father.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,217
    Nigelb said:

    It’s not big pharma that’s growing rich on the back of the pandemic...

    https://twitter.com/fmanjoo/status/1283801640881930242

    On the other hand, US hospitals aren't doing profitable elective surgeries and are haemorrhaging cash.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    tlg86 said:

    Dad just back from the pub. It was absolutely dead; only a couple of people in there.

    London Anecdata:

    went on the Tube today. Busiest I have seen it since early lockdown. However it was only like a quiet Sunday, so progress is slow. But better than nothing.

    An observation: mask usage is now about 95%. It is near universal, and failure to wear a mask gets frowns and scoldings. Also: the people most willing to go without a mask are attractive young women.

    True story.

    My guess is that this is Darwinian. Attractive young women don't want to give up their mating advantages - look at me, I'm pretty - so they are still determined to look cute and earn admirers.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The government claimed that Julian Lewis lied to the Chief Whip.

    If that is not true, and he was expelled merely for the defying the government with regards to a non-governmental (and in theory independent) role, then that is an extraordinary step - a degree of control-freakery that Blair and Mandelson at their peak did not aspire to.

    Lewis has denied it, saying he never made a commitment to support Grayling. Note that isn’t quite what he has been accused of

    My guess is he misled the chief whip without *quite* lying to his face
    Though any politician- let alone the current tenant of No 10- ought to be very careful before making misleading without actually lying a hanging offence.
    I think Charles is overexerting himself in defence of hierarchy.
    One can stretch a guiding principle too far....
    I don’t like duplicitous snakes. Simple as that.
    Unless they’re in charge ?
    Nope. There are few politicians I like, and certainly not the current bunch of reprobates.
    Understood. You don’t like, but will defend, the duplicitous snakes in charge.

    You mistake explanation and defence

    The government shouldn’t have tried to intervene in the election.

    Lewis behaved like a duplicitous little shit. I understand why they sacked him in the interest of party discipline.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    LadyG said:

    I've looked at it. And it SEEMS to be true. Caveat Emptor

    But if is true, we may have unjustifiably scared ourselves into a Great Depression
    Excess deaths are what matter. They are large.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,060
    IanB2 said:

    LadyG said:

    IanB2 said:

    Alistair said:
    Somehow it just seems right that he ended up in Epstein’s address book, whether he did anything to deserve it or not. Maybe one of Epstein’s (other) hobbies was looking up the contact details of other prominent creepy guys?
    I have it on very good authority that this is the answer: the Little Black Book actually belonged to Ghislaine Maxwell, and Epstein inherited it (and used some of it).

    This is why it is so biased to very sociable figures in West London circa 1990-1995 (they almost outnumber the Yanks)

    That is what all my friends in West London are saying, anyway
    I can see all this heading toward the revelation that she was abused by her father.
    Well that's something she has in common with Trump
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Charles said:

    LadyG said:

    I've looked at it. And it SEEMS to be true. Caveat Emptor

    But if is true, we may have unjustifiably scared ourselves into a Great Depression
    Excess deaths are what matter. They are large.
    Fair point.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,413
    tlg86 said:

    I doubt it's that many people...
    Friend of mine's father, this very year, had successful chemotherapy treatment, went into remission, then caught Covid. Recovered after 3 weeks in hospital, was discharged, and died 3 days later of a heart attack! Quite a 2020.
    He really ought not to be a CV 19 death. Though it couldn't have helped.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,695
    Charles said:

    LadyG said:

    I've looked at it. And it SEEMS to be true. Caveat Emptor

    But if is true, we may have unjustifiably scared ourselves into a Great Depression...
    ... says the Scarer-in-Chief :open_mouth:
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,707
    dr_spyn said:
    Such an unhelpful comment. It's like someone being sacked by Neil Kinnock and saying they will loyally defend Michael Foot's manifesto.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,381

    A lovely unbiased thread on Boris by Cyclefree. Not unsurprising , but at least we know where Cyclefree is coming from, if of course there was any doubt.
    I don't like Boris myself, but we are less than a year(in fact only 7 months into his premiership). I think he needs time.
    One can Imagine Cyclefree lauding Blair in a thread such as this 7 months into his Premiership, only to find out he was absolutely appalling as PM(given that he was effective, if appalling).

    We're a year into the premiership of Boris Johnson.
    7 months into majority premiership though.

    There's a world of difference between minority and majority politics.
    Has there been a difference? It certainly looks like the same old s+++ to me.
This discussion has been closed.