Re:discussion about pubs opening on a Saturday earlier. I think some people are overlooking that pubs will open when pubs will open. The biggest chain of pubs in my part of the world (Young’s) will not be opening until Monday 20th July.
I also think people are not factoring in that I imagine most pubs will not be allowing a free for all (and it will not be in their interests to do so). I expect many/most to be imposing limits on numbers, possibly limits on consumption, maybe insisting on seating only etc etc. Responsible pub owners will be fully conscious of the damage images of drunken revelry would cause them and will want to avoid it. Irresponsible ones will be running grave risks of being immediately shut down again.
I don't expect New Year's Eve type crowds, though probably somewhere in the country will be in the news.
Transmission in Leicester seems to be at workplaces and homes, not pubs or shops, so I wouldn't expect a lot of difference.
The problem is that when your only tool is a lockdown hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail.
Indeed. It's in meat factories and clothing factories etc. but these dipsticks don't seem to understand that.
We can't afford a second lockdown. The economy is already dying.
I expect many pubs on Saturday will be like meat factories.
No, I don't think so.
They're in the public eye, unlike those businesses.
Everywhere I've been that's public takes social distancing and hygiene very seriously.
And so will their customers after six pints ... or not.
Indeed. A plague of locusts has ravaged the crops of Sardinia. When I read that I thought Daily Mash. Sadly not.
2020 is by far the most depressing year of my life, to date, and I was born in the mid 1960s.
And we are only half way through. Indeed, exactly half way through
Do you have any memory of the 1968/69 flu epidemic? (It killed about 80,000 people in the UK, which would be around 100,000 today taking population increase into account).
I discussed that with my mother last weekend. She was 20 at the time.
Absolutely no memory. The government did nothing - it was just one of those things that happened. No lockdown or anything
Without lockdown I am guessing Covid would have killed a million or more in this country (not necessarily by now, but in total, assuming most people exposed and fatality rate of at least 2% owing to the health system being overwhelmed).
Is it just me or does this headline come across as implying a touch of cynicism over the decision by the government, as if it couldn't possibly just be the right thing to do?
"Hong Kong: What is behind the UK's citizenship offer? Laura Kuenssberg"
Just what we need another 3 million refugees, they would not take even 1 in the last panic over refugees but now we are on our knees they are happy to take 3 million just to try and act big shots to the Chinese.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
Guardian: The first details of the controversial Brexit checks Boris Johnson insisted would not apply to trade across the Irish Sea have emerged, with mandatory paperwork for businesses in Great Britain supplying goods to Northern Ireland from January.
An HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) document marked “sensitive”, seen by the Guardian, reveals that firms in Great Britain will be obliged to complete three rounds of customs, security and transit forms on all goods.
Guardian: The first details of the controversial Brexit checks Boris Johnson insisted would not apply to trade across the Irish Sea have emerged, with mandatory paperwork for businesses in Great Britain supplying goods to Northern Ireland from January.
An HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) document marked “sensitive”, seen by the Guardian, reveals that firms in Great Britain will be obliged to complete three rounds of customs, security and transit forms on all goods.
Taking back control?
LOL, you could not make it up , queue the brexit dupes on here saying it is a good thing for employment and a major sign of sovereignty. Keep waving those blue passports.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
How many times will they hear the "eye test" defence?
I would have guessed once. And then when the news gets out that that person has been prosecuted for driving while unfit, people will realise you shouldn’t make jokes to the police.
Guardian: The first details of the controversial Brexit checks Boris Johnson insisted would not apply to trade across the Irish Sea have emerged, with mandatory paperwork for businesses in Great Britain supplying goods to Northern Ireland from January.
An HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) document marked “sensitive”, seen by the Guardian, reveals that firms in Great Britain will be obliged to complete three rounds of customs, security and transit forms on all goods.
Taking back control?
LOL, you could not make it up , queue the brexit dupes on here saying it is a good thing for employment and a major sign of sovereignty. Keep waving those blue passports.
Brexit served one important function. To shoehorn Boris Johnson through the door of 10 Downing Street.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
On the contrary, the tragedy is that it is legitimate. Russian interference could not even begin to explain the scale of Corbyn’s failure.
Although I would be surprised, to be honest, that the Russians felt the need to interfere. They had the option of a lowlife stool pigeon who instinctively sucks up to people who are actually his enemies and doesn’t have a clue what he is doing, or a long-standing admirer of the Soviet Union and critic of NATO. For them, the options in 2019 were about perfect.
Indeed. A plague of locusts has ravaged the crops of Sardinia. When I read that I thought Daily Mash. Sadly not.
2020 is by far the most depressing year of my life, to date, and I was born in the mid 1960s.
And we are only half way through. Indeed, exactly half way through
Do you have any memory of the 1968/69 flu epidemic? (It killed about 80,000 people in the UK, which would be around 100,000 today taking population increase into account).
I discussed that with my mother last weekend. She was 20 at the time.
Absolutely no memory. The government did nothing - it was just one of those things that happened. No lockdown or anything
Without lockdown I am guessing Covid would have killed a million or more in this country (not necessarily by now, but in total, assuming most people exposed and fatality rate of at least 2% owing to the health system being overwhelmed).
A million is likely an over estimate, but you are right that the 80 000-100 000 deaths has to be taken into context. The figures for Hong Kong Flu are for 2 and a half years, with no lock down. I wonder what the number of peak daily deaths was back then. The first Covid death in the UK was in March, so we are talking a 4 month period with a strong lockdown.
Also in the 21st century we are so much more interconnected than in 1968-70. At that time most people would not go abroad all year, now a weekend in Barcelona or Prage is a typical occurrence. What people often overlook though is how much quicker and common domestic travel is. The motorway and dual carriageway network has developed massively in the last 50 years, and there first 125 trains were in the late 70s. This means that no lockdown in 2020 would have been a bigger catastrophe than no lockdown in 1969 was.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
How many times will they hear the "eye test" defence?
I would have guessed once. And then when the news gets out that that person has been prosecuted for driving while unfit, people will realise you shouldn’t make jokes to the police.
That might be good advice, heavily caveated with it depends who says it and where in our society they stand.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
That is one measure of legitimacy. Another might be how often they break the law - they do badly on that. Another might be how often they lie - they do badly do that.
The fascist iconography of Trumpism is hiding in plain sight. If Trump were smarter he would really be dangerous.
I don't see it. The eagle is a symbol of America left, right or centre.
That fascists have used it doesn't change that. Trump is a racist who deserves to lose, but there's stronger connections than he uses an eagle in his artwork to say that.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
We operate a FPTP electoral system and until that changes your argument is not valid
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
On the contrary, the tragedy is that it is legitimate. Russian interference could not even begin to explain the scale of Corbyn’s failure.
Although I would be surprised, to be honest, that the Russians felt the need to interfere. They had the option of a lowlife stool pigeon who instinctively sucks up to people who are actually his enemies and doesn’t have a clue what he is doing, or a long-standing admirer of the Soviet Union and critic of NATO. For them, the options in 2019 were about perfect.
The report was ready to publish before the 2019GE, so it's unlikely to be about Russian interference in that election.
Perhaps they didn't interfere in GE2019, as the product of their earlier interference, and willing dupes, meant they could settle back and admire a job well done.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Indeed. A plague of locusts has ravaged the crops of Sardinia. When I read that I thought Daily Mash. Sadly not.
2020 is by far the most depressing year of my life, to date, and I was born in the mid 1960s.
And we are only half way through. Indeed, exactly half way through
Do you have any memory of the 1968/69 flu epidemic? (It killed about 80,000 people in the UK, which would be around 100,000 today taking population increase into account).
I discussed that with my mother last weekend. She was 20 at the time.
Absolutely no memory. The government did nothing - it was just one of those things that happened. No lockdown or anything
I misread this comment at first. I was startled to learn Charles’ mother was 20 last weekend.
Indeed. A plague of locusts has ravaged the crops of Sardinia. When I read that I thought Daily Mash. Sadly not.
2020 is by far the most depressing year of my life, to date, and I was born in the mid 1960s.
And we are only half way through. Indeed, exactly half way through
Do you have any memory of the 1968/69 flu epidemic? (It killed about 80,000 people in the UK, which would be around 100,000 today taking population increase into account).
I discussed that with my mother last weekend. She was 20 at the time.
Absolutely no memory. The government did nothing - it was just one of those things that happened. No lockdown or anything
I misread this comment at first. I was startled to learn Charles’ mother was 20 last weekend.
Discovery of Synergistic and Antagonistic Drug Combinations against SARS-CoV-2 In Vitro https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.29.178889v1 ...Using in silico approaches, we prioritized 73 combinations of 32 drugs with potential activity against SARS-CoV-2 and then tested them in vitro. Overall, we identified 16 synergistic and 8 antagonistic combinations, 4 of which were both synergistic and antagonistic in a dose-dependent manner. Among the 16 synergistic cases, combinations of nitazoxanide with three other compounds (remdesivir, amodiaquine and umifenovir) were the most notable, all exhibiting significant synergy against SARS-CoV-2. The combination of nitazoxanide, an FDA-approved drug, and remdesivir, FDA emergency use authorization for the treatment of COVID-19, demonstrate a strong synergistic interaction. Notably, the combination of remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine demonstrated strong antagonism. Overall, our results emphasize the importance of both drug repurposing and preclinical testing of drug combinations for potential therapeutic use against SARS-CoV-2 infections....
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Indeed. And its gross incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people who should still be alive.
Not really. Lots of people critical of the government on here have been pointing out that it was the strategy of the government to blame the public for a second wave - and the one thing we know Cummings & Johnson are good at is winning a political debate by convincing the public to blame other people for things going wrong.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Indeed. A plague of locusts has ravaged the crops of Sardinia. When I read that I thought Daily Mash. Sadly not.
2020 is by far the most depressing year of my life, to date, and I was born in the mid 1960s.
And we are only half way through. Indeed, exactly half way through
Do you have any memory of the 1968/69 flu epidemic? (It killed about 80,000 people in the UK, which would be around 100,000 today taking population increase into account).
I discussed that with my mother last weekend. She was 20 at the time.
Absolutely no memory. The government did nothing - it was just one of those things that happened. No lockdown or anything
Without lockdown I am guessing Covid would have killed a million or more in this country (not necessarily by now, but in total, assuming most people exposed and fatality rate of at least 2% owing to the health system being overwhelmed).
A million is likely an over estimate, but you are right that the 80 000-100 000 deaths has to be taken into context. The figures for Hong Kong Flu are for 2 and a half years, with no lock down. I wonder what the number of peak daily deaths was back then. The first Covid death in the UK was in March, so we are talking a 4 month period with a strong lockdown.
Also in the 21st century we are so much more interconnected than in 1968-70. At that time most people would not go abroad all year, now a weekend in Barcelona or Prage is a typical occurrence. What people often overlook though is how much quicker and common domestic travel is. The motorway and dual carriageway network has developed massively in the last 50 years, and there first 125 trains were in the late 70s. This means that no lockdown in 2020 would have been a bigger catastrophe than no lockdown in 1969 was.
There wasn't no lock down under Spanish flu, they just didn't call it that
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
We operate a FPTP electoral system and until that changes your argument is not valid
Of course it is valid to challenge the legitimacy of a government that only received 43% of the vote. The system might deliver a large majority on the back of such a vote, but that does not make it legitimate.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Or indeed, decided not to travel at all because the quarantine rules made it clear it was still a risky thing to do.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
We operate a FPTP electoral system and until that changes your argument is not valid
Of course it is valid to challenge the legitimacy of a government that only received 43% of the vote. The system might deliver a large majority on the back of such a vote, but that does not make it legitimate.
Yes it does. That government got many millions more votes than any alternative prospectus of government.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Not if the Russians were involved in getting Johnson his 80 seat majority. Johnson´s government is illegitimate.
The fascist iconography of Trumpism is hiding in plain sight. If Trump were smarter he would really be dangerous.
I don't see it. The eagle is a symbol of America left, right or centre.
That fascists have used it doesn't change that. Trump is a racist who deserves to lose, but there's stronger connections than he uses an eagle in his artwork to say that.
But usually the eagle has the US flag in the centre of the eagle, with an olive branch and arrows in its talons rather than holding a disk below it. The resemblance is at best unfortunate, but probably a deliberate trap to try and make Trump's opponents look unpatriotic.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Im not saying it should be enforced or shouldnt be enforced. Im saying the reason it was done was not to do with stopping covid spreading but to placate the common sense brigade who think it was "obviously" needed. I interpret the lack of enforcement as the government agreeing that the policy was never needed or at most an extremely low priority.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Legitimacy is binary surely?
Cameron’s government was legitimate despite requiring a coalition
As Health Minister Dorries was responsible for councils such as Leicester NOT getting the full data. This is actually a libel against the Mayor of Leicester, not partisanship.
And even so, it's a highly irresponsible message for a government minister to tweet in the midst of a lockdown crisis where everyone needs to pull together.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Not if the Russians were involved in getting Johnson his 80 seat majority. Johnson´s government is illegitimate.
I wouldn't say illegitimate, but the willingness of so many conservatives to go along with this kind of stuff "because he won us the election" is seriously disturbing.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Im not saying it should be enforced or shouldnt be enforced. Im saying the reason it was done was not to do with stopping covid spreading but to placate the common sense brigade who think it was "obviously" needed. I interpret the lack of enforcement as the government agreeing that the policy was never needed or at most an extremely low priority.
I don't agree. There haven't been that many fines for lockdown breaches in general - doesn't mean lockdown hasn't happened.
You can't interpret the lockdown via fines but by what people are doing.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
Easy, the Tory government here in the UK is legitimate. It is just less legitimate than it could and should be!
Virtually all the housing data that I see come from biased sources, usually trying to ramp sales (amazing opportunities etc.). I'm advising a friend on house purchase in Oxfordshire and am genuinely unsure what to suggest is likely - are we expecting a continued slide in prices, or a bounce back, or what?
The answer is no one really has a clue
Interest rates will be lower for longer removing a point of pressure
But lots of people may be unemployed
Many people may be nervous to take on a mortgage reducing demand
While lots of people will want a house with a garden increasing demand
My instinct (and it’s purely my instinct) is that the mortgage offer percentage will give an indicator.
As the lenders fear a drop, they’re reducing their LTV (to reduce exposure, as an LTV of 85% gives more scope to recoup their loan in a falling market with a need for rapid sale after foreclosures).
As demand is capitalised desire (desire plus the financial ability to enact it), reduced LTV from 90-95% to 85% means the deposit climbs significantly (from 5-10%, which was already very difficult for many) to 15%+.
This reduces the effective demand, pushing prices down in a self-fulfilling way. When LTV of 90-95% comes back, that effective demand resurges and prices will climb again.
It’s only one factor, of course, but it makes sense to me. All should do their own research, though, very much so.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
We operate a FPTP electoral system and until that changes your argument is not valid
Of course it is valid to challenge the legitimacy of a government that only received 43% of the vote. The system might deliver a large majority on the back of such a vote, but that does not make it legitimate.
If course, in the British Parliamentary system, where it is legitimate for MPs to choose a different PM if the current one loses their support, questions of legitimacy deriving from vote share, current public support, etc, have more relevance.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Legitimacy is binary surely?
Cameron’s government was legitimate despite requiring a coalition
Under FPTP of course it was.
Under the silly idea that you require over 50% of votes at the election for that government then no, because Cameron's government got 0% at the election. The Tories got votes, the Lib Dems got votes but the coalition got nothing as a coalition since it didn't stand as a coalition at the election.
I would concur. I could evidence the folly of "others" by Main Road in Ogmore by Sea being jam packed with parked cars despite the roads from Ewenny and St Brides Major both having mobile matrix signs in place telling drivers "Beach car parks are closed".
That does not however distract me from the chaotic mixed messaging specifically from the Prime Minister, who's cheery optimism is implying we spend for Britain or fill our boots down the pub.
The economic and the health messages need to be finely balanced. They are not. They lurch from one extreme to the other.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Im not saying it should be enforced or shouldnt be enforced. Im saying the reason it was done was not to do with stopping covid spreading but to placate the common sense brigade who think it was "obviously" needed. I interpret the lack of enforcement as the government agreeing that the policy was never needed or at most an extremely low priority.
I don't agree. There haven't been that many fines for lockdown breaches in general - doesn't mean lockdown hasn't happened.
You can't interpret the lockdown via fines but by what people are doing.
There were 14000 lockdown fines by 11 May compared to 2 for quarantine.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
"coalitions don't count" is just something you made up because you seem to like the not so democratic UK system.
Without lockdown I am guessing Covid would have killed a million or more in this country (not necessarily by now, but in total, assuming most people exposed and fatality rate of at least 2% owing to the health system being overwhelmed).
A huge over-estimate imho. Sweden has not had a lockdown and its death rate isn't that different from ours.
Also don't forget that the number of new cases was falling before lockdown was introduced.
Still, we did introduce lockdown, so we will never know.
What I think is likely is that the number of deaths caused by the Chinese flu recession will significantly exceed the number of deaths caused by the virus. Assuming that each point off economic growth for a year causes 8-10k deaths, we're looking at 80-100k extra deaths from this year's 10% contraction, and half that from next year's below trend output.
So maybe 150-200k premature deaths from foregone economic growth.
And maybe a similar number from the collapse in health service productivity.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
We operate a FPTP electoral system and until that changes your argument is not valid
Of course it is valid to challenge the legitimacy of a government that only received 43% of the vote. The system might deliver a large majority on the back of such a vote, but that does not make it legitimate.
Yes, it does.
We have a system for selecting MPs who then choose a government. It was recently blessed in a referendum vs an alternative advocated by your party.
A government properly chosen according to that system is legitimate. Just because you don’t like the rules doesn’t change that fact.
I guess Starmer’s criticism of government failings are ok, but Tory criticism of Labour failing isn’t.
Ok
Starmer is leader of the opposition. I know it's difficult to believe, but Dorries is a health minister supposedly working together with local government leaders. The tweet would be unacceptable even if it were true.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
That's not true. Policies don't only work if they're enforced. Authoritarians like you make me worry.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
Im not saying it should be enforced or shouldnt be enforced. Im saying the reason it was done was not to do with stopping covid spreading but to placate the common sense brigade who think it was "obviously" needed. I interpret the lack of enforcement as the government agreeing that the policy was never needed or at most an extremely low priority.
I don't agree. There haven't been that many fines for lockdown breaches in general - doesn't mean lockdown hasn't happened.
You can't interpret the lockdown via fines but by what people are doing.
There were 14000 lockdown fines by 11 May compared to 2 for quarantine.
Precisely, not many.
Considering the entire 66.65 million people of the UK were locked down, 14k fines is not many fines. That is 0.02% of the population effected being fined and that is over a period of about 6 or 7 weeks I'm guessing since the lockdown came into force in March.
How long has quarantine been in force? How many people have been subject to quarantine?
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
"coalitions don't count" is just something you made up because you seem to like the not so democratic UK system.
I didn't make it up, coalitions did not get voted for at the election unless they were a defined coalition at the election.
If the desire is to get the mandate of 50% plus of votes at the election then you need 50% plus of votes at the election. The coalitions only got 50% plus at the election if they stood at the election.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
I guess Starmer’s criticism of government failings are ok, but Tory criticism of Labour failing isn’t.
Ok
Starmer is leader of the opposition. I know it's difficult to believe, but Dorries is a health minister supposedly working together with local government leaders. The tweet would be unacceptable even if it were true.
Labour has attacked the government for being too slow and too fast to lock down Leicester.
Soulsby has been specifically critical of the government saying a lockdown isn’t necessary.
Why do you think the government should allow the opposition free hits?
Scathing review of Johnson’s PMQs performance in the Telegraph
I thought it was his best one against Starmer yet actually ! First reaction was a draw, the subsequent clips and various hostages to fortune weren't great for him though.
This is an absurd debate. Of course this government is legitimate. That is not in question. At the same time the demand for people to pay it fealty is also absurd - just because the government is legitimate doesn't mean that you should like or respect the fact that its incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people and that the Brexit bomb is armed and ready to explode.
"A harbour no more China’s draconian security law for Hong Kong buries one country, two systems The regime in Beijing would rather be feared than admired"
Hong Kong had a very large share of Chinas GDP in 1997, but much less significant now.
Does anyone have figures on how many of the are British Overseas passport holders? And the age range? I would have thought that they would be the older population, while the young protestors are mostly born after 1997.
It'd about half. 3 million or so of Hong Kong's 7 million or so.
You've got to remember there was lots of immigration from the mainland by Chinese proper after 1997.
I actually think that will be popular among the Wildlings of the Blue Wall as it can be handily marketed as obligation of Empire 2.0.
I mean, it's not an aUsTrAlIaN sTyLe PoInTs SyStEm but that was a Johnsonian commitment to be parsed on a symbolic rather than literal level like "I'll pay for the abortion" and the Muir Éireann border.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
"coalitions don't count" is just something you made up because you seem to like the not so democratic UK system.
I didn't make it up, coalitions did not get voted for at the election unless they were a defined coalition at the election.
If the desire is to get the mandate of 50% plus of votes at the election then you need 50% plus of votes at the election. The coalitions only got 50% plus at the election if they stood at the election.
As I said, something you just made up.
Here in Germany there is a legitimate elected coalition government. The proportion of people complaining about the voting system here is tiny compared to the UK. Once you've persuaded some Germans that their government is less legitimate than the UK's I'll start listening to your nonsense.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
All the Nordic countries have well-defined coalitions which won majorities using d'Hondt PR.
But I wouldn't call a government illegitimate if it wins a majority under the geneally-accepted current system. They should however avoid rhetoric that suggests that they had a majority of votes ("The British people overwhelmingly endorsed us", that sort of thing)..
Lol, I'm enjoying Leicester being treated like a leper colony. Deserved as well. I've got distant family there and they definitely weren't taking the social distancing seriously, one of them posted a gathering of around 60-70 people in a small house on Instagram. I have no doubt that loads of people will have been infected there.
The government should tell businesses, "We are creating the trade barriers. You deal with them as best you can." This would be more helpful to businesses than pretending the new barriers won't be there after January 1st.
I think Jerzewska is right. She is one of the main customs experts after all. Obviously this government won't admit the main effect of Brexit is to create red tape.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
It is a mystery how Johnson hopes to get away with packaging a re-announcement of already promised investment, now spread over eight years rather than five, as anything comparable to the US's New Deal.
This is an absurd debate. Of course this government is legitimate. That is not in question. At the same time the demand for people to pay it fealty is also absurd - just because the government is legitimate doesn't mean that you should like or respect the fact that its incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people and that the Brexit bomb is armed and ready to explode.
It’s not legitimate in the sense that it’s being run by useless bastards.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
Scathing review of Johnson’s PMQs performance in the Telegraph
I thought it was his best one against Starmer yet actually ! First reaction was a draw, the subsequent clips and various hostages to fortune weren't great for him though.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
"coalitions don't count" is just something you made up because you seem to like the not so democratic UK system.
Indeed.
Big_G's original statement was "most legitimate government in recent history"
Yet the 2010-15 coalition could claim to represent a majority of the votes cast in a way that the current government cannot.
Just looking back through the thread and it does seem there is meaningful mis-reading of each other's posts to make a pre-existing point; pretty much like some of our politicians!
On the private sector debate, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to say that Foxy and Big_G are correct because I read them speaking about slightly different things. Whilst private hospitals in some areas may not have been used as much as expected, without a doubt the private sector has played a key role in PPE manufacturer, ventilators, testing, in feeding the nation etc. Public and private working together is key, not setting them against each other.
This is an absurd debate. Of course this government is legitimate. That is not in question. At the same time the demand for people to pay it fealty is also absurd - just because the government is legitimate doesn't mean that you should like or respect the fact that its incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people and that the Brexit bomb is armed and ready to explode.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
It is a mystery how Johnson hopes to get away with packaging a re-announcement of already promised investment, now spread over eight years rather than five, as anything comparable to the US's New Deal.
This is an absurd debate. Of course this government is legitimate. That is not in question. At the same time the demand for people to pay it fealty is also absurd - just because the government is legitimate doesn't mean that you should like or respect the fact that its incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people and that the Brexit bomb is armed and ready to explode.
It’s not legitimate in the sense that it’s being run by useless bastards.
Not in any other way.
But as we legitimately installed the government of useless barstewards, fully aware that the useless barsteward-in-chief was running the show it is wholly legitimate
Unless you are suggesting it is run by an unelected Spad, in which case it is not.
It is a mystery how Johnson hopes to get away with packaging a re-announcement of already promised investment, now spread over eight years rather than five, as anything comparable to the US's New Deal.
How does a single roundabout cost £14m!
Probably for the same reason that a new park bench costs £4000
The fascist iconography of Trumpism is hiding in plain sight. If Trump were smarter he would really be dangerous.
I don't see it. The eagle is a symbol of America left, right or centre.
That fascists have used it doesn't change that. Trump is a racist who deserves to lose, but there's stronger connections than he uses an eagle in his artwork to say that.
There's always a degree of subjectivity with images. It's a bit like the famous mural. It was quite clearly anti-Semitic to me (although possibly subconsciously on the part of the artist, I don't know). But an old friend of mine really couldn't see it, he said these are just likenesses of real historical figures, not all of them are Jewish, etc etc. I wondered whether the fact that I studied history at school, covering the Nazi period where we looked at things like anti Semitic propaganda, and he didn't, might have explained it. To me it is obvious that these graphics, like a lot of Trump iconography, have a fascist flavour to them. Themes like extreme patriotism, violence and dominance, aggression and anger, militarism and authority, all feature strongly. Luckily, Trump doesn't have a political philosophy so isn't really a fascist. He's just a narcissist who knows which buttons to press. Some of his supporters and henchmen are though I think. My guess is that the American Republic will survive Trump but he has certainly awoken something disturbing in US society. None of us should need reminding how dangerous fascism is.
"Police have pledged to stop and fine drivers trying to flee Leicester for drinking or shopping after the city was put under a fresh lockdown following a spike in Covid-19 cases in the city.
Officers will carry out spot checks on vehicles leaving locked-down Leicester and could turn them around if their journey is not essential, it was revealed today, as confusion reigned because some areas in the city limits are in lockdown while neighbours are not.
Leicestershire Police is also threatening £100 fines amid growing concerns that residents may flee for the county's open pubs, hair salons or other attractions while patrols will also break up mass gatherings in the city after they were partially blamed for a spike in coronavirus cases in June."
The White Horse in Scraptoft will be busy. It is a large Weatherspoons just outside the boundary, and easy walking distance from the Thurnby Lodge Estate. There may be other similar pubs, but I don't think shops will be very busy outside, and hairdressers need booking weeks ahead. All the main Leicestershire shopping areas are included in the lockdown.
I may report from my local pub on Saturday, but I suspect the landlord won't be be serving non regulars.He is already pulling his hair out over trying to make the regulations work.
My prediction is the big pubs will be very strict with the rules, they are mostly chains and will not want the risk of naming and shaming by the media and legal challenges of negligence.
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
Walked though one of our pub carp-parks yesterday and spoke to the manager. Taking a lot of steps... sanitisers, one way systems, app. Time limits on tables. Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance. A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
The bounties were allegedly to kill coalition -- including British -- troops. What's our new National Security Adviser said about it? Or the old one? And when will Boris publish the report into Russian interference in our politics?
If the Conservatives were clean, they would publish it. They haven´t, so they aren´t. The Johnson government is not legitimate.
You may not like this government, you may want to attack it, but it is the most legitimate government in recent history after winning an 80 seat majority just 8 months ago
Err, with only a minority (43%) of the vote and with more people voting for parties opposing its principal Brexit policy than voted for it.
Name one party opposing Brexit that you think should be the government?
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
Whilst what you say is obviously true, and of course the govt should be in power, there are different levels of legitimacy. If it had won over half the vote that would have made it more legitimate even if thats a extremely harsh bar to set given our political system. Similarly if they paid more respect to the rule of law and our unwritten constitution they would be more legitimate. Of course they are the most legitimate available because they won the election but their actions and behaviour undermine that.
Can you name any western countries in your definition which are legitimate with your phrasing?
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
"coalitions don't count" is just something you made up because you seem to like the not so democratic UK system.
I didn't make it up, coalitions did not get voted for at the election unless they were a defined coalition at the election.
If the desire is to get the mandate of 50% plus of votes at the election then you need 50% plus of votes at the election. The coalitions only got 50% plus at the election if they stood at the election.
As I said, something you just made up.
Here in Germany there is a legitimate elected coalition government. The proportion of people complaining about the voting system here is tiny compared to the UK. Once you've persuaded some Germans that their government is less legitimate than the UK's I'll start listening to your nonsense.
To try an analogy:
A party runs in the policy of painting Buckingham Palace blue (and nothing else) and wins 35% of the vote.
Another party wins 20% support for their sole policy of painting it red.
They agree to form a coalition.
@IanB2@PClipp et al argue that it legitimate because they received over 50% of the vote
@Philip_Thompson argues that no one voted for a coalition government with a compromise policy of painting Buckingham Palace purple and therefore it is illegitimate
This is an absurd debate. Of course this government is legitimate. That is not in question. At the same time the demand for people to pay it fealty is also absurd - just because the government is legitimate doesn't mean that you should like or respect the fact that its incompetence has killed tens of thousands of people and that the Brexit bomb is armed and ready to explode.
It it classic Tory gaslighting and hypocrisy.
OH NO!
"gaslighting"
Life is seriously too short to try to work out what it means.
Comments
The small pubs will mostly be OK as the publicans are usually sensible people and want to look after their customers, many of whom are friends.
It is the medium sized pubs who will have the problems keeping control. Keeping 2/3 of the tables free while the staff are being overrun, serving so many people, trying to remember who has put their name on the attendance list etc. And probably some landlords will only care about reducing their overdraft.
It's a depression when you've lost yours.
With apologies to Ronald Reagan.
Although I would be surprised, to be honest, that the Russians felt the need to interfere. They had the option of a lowlife stool pigeon who instinctively sucks up to people who are actually his enemies and doesn’t have a clue what he is doing, or a long-standing admirer of the Soviet Union and critic of NATO. For them, the options in 2019 were about perfect.
https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1278577530975465472
Also in the 21st century we are so much more interconnected than in 1968-70. At that time most people would not go abroad all year, now a weekend in Barcelona or Prage is a typical occurrence. What people often overlook though is how much quicker and common domestic travel is. The motorway and dual carriageway network has developed massively in the last 50 years, and there first 125 trains were in the late 70s. This means that no lockdown in 2020 would have been a bigger catastrophe than no lockdown in 1969 was.
You and nine friends are at a table crafting. One person is using glitter on their craft. How many projects ends up with glitter on it?
That fascists have used it doesn't change that. Trump is a racist who deserves to lose, but there's stronger connections than he uses an eagle in his artwork to say that.
Perhaps they didn't interfere in GE2019, as the product of their earlier interference, and willing dupes, meant they could settle back and admire a job well done.
Only two people fined for breaking quarantine on arriving at the UK. A policy for newspaper headlines only, never any intention to police or enforce this, just to make your "common sense" punter feel like something was being done.
The government won millions of votes more than any other party. You can't sum up all other parties votes and add them together that's not legitimate, if the other parties voters all wanted the same thing they'd have all voted for the same party. They chose not to do so.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1278463553125658627?s=09
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.29.178889v1
...Using in silico approaches, we prioritized 73 combinations of 32 drugs with potential activity against SARS-CoV-2 and then tested them in vitro. Overall, we identified 16 synergistic and 8 antagonistic combinations, 4 of which were both synergistic and antagonistic in a dose-dependent manner. Among the 16 synergistic cases, combinations of nitazoxanide with three other compounds (remdesivir, amodiaquine and umifenovir) were the most notable, all exhibiting significant synergy against SARS-CoV-2. The combination of nitazoxanide, an FDA-approved drug, and remdesivir, FDA emergency use authorization for the treatment of COVID-19, demonstrate a strong synergistic interaction. Notably, the combination of remdesivir and hydroxychloroquine demonstrated strong antagonism. Overall, our results emphasize the importance of both drug repurposing and preclinical testing of drug combinations for potential therapeutic use against SARS-CoV-2 infections....
Disappointed, yes, not at all surprised.
How many people have "done the right thing" just because that is what they were told to do, without requiring the Police banging on their door to enforce it?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/03/how-cities-flattened-curve-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic-coronavirus/
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
I guess Starmer’s criticism of government failings are ok, but Tory criticism of Labour failing isn’t.
Ok
Cameron’s government was legitimate despite requiring a coalition
And even so, it's a highly irresponsible message for a government minister to tweet in the midst of a lockdown crisis where everyone needs to pull together.
You can't interpret the lockdown via fines but by what people are doing.
As the lenders fear a drop, they’re reducing their LTV (to reduce exposure, as an LTV of 85% gives more scope to recoup their loan in a falling market with a need for rapid sale after foreclosures).
As demand is capitalised desire (desire plus the financial ability to enact it), reduced LTV from 90-95% to 85% means the deposit climbs significantly (from 5-10%, which was already very difficult for many) to 15%+.
This reduces the effective demand, pushing prices down in a self-fulfilling way.
When LTV of 90-95% comes back, that effective demand resurges and prices will climb again.
It’s only one factor, of course, but it makes sense to me. All should do their own research, though, very much so.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/11/trump-win-wasnt-fair-or-democraticbut-it-was-legitimate.html
If course, in the British Parliamentary system, where it is legitimate for MPs to choose a different PM if the current one loses their support, questions of legitimacy deriving from vote share, current public support, etc, have more relevance.
Under the silly idea that you require over 50% of votes at the election for that government then no, because Cameron's government got 0% at the election. The Tories got votes, the Lib Dems got votes but the coalition got nothing as a coalition since it didn't stand as a coalition at the election.
That does not however distract me from the chaotic mixed messaging specifically from the Prime Minister, who's cheery optimism is implying we spend for Britain or fill our boots down the pub.
The economic and the health messages need to be finely balanced. They are not. They lurch from one extreme to the other.
Another local pub has a sign up saying Exit Only, but I couldn't find an entrance.
A third has posted on the local;l Facebook page .... plenty of room on Saturday, let's drink the place dry!
Sad thing is that I prefer the third one, who at least has kept going as a takeaway.... and a very good one ..... over lockdown, but I'm really concerned about the attitude.
Also don't forget that the number of new cases was falling before lockdown was introduced.
Still, we did introduce lockdown, so we will never know.
What I think is likely is that the number of deaths caused by the Chinese flu recession will significantly exceed the number of deaths caused by the virus. Assuming that each point off economic growth for a year causes 8-10k deaths, we're looking at 80-100k extra deaths from this year's 10% contraction, and half that from next year's below trend output.
So maybe 150-200k premature deaths from foregone economic growth.
And maybe a similar number from the collapse in health service productivity.
We have a system for selecting MPs who then choose a government. It was recently blessed in a referendum vs an alternative advocated by your party.
A government properly chosen according to that system is legitimate. Just because you don’t like the rules doesn’t change that fact.
I know it's difficult to believe, but Dorries is a health minister supposedly working together with local government leaders. The tweet would be unacceptable even if it were true.
Considering the entire 66.65 million people of the UK were locked down, 14k fines is not many fines. That is 0.02% of the population effected being fined and that is over a period of about 6 or 7 weeks I'm guessing since the lockdown came into force in March.
How long has quarantine been in force? How many people have been subject to quarantine?
If the desire is to get the mandate of 50% plus of votes at the election then you need 50% plus of votes at the election. The coalitions only got 50% plus at the election if they stood at the election.
I don’t believe this plaice exists
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53257512
Soulsby has been specifically critical of the government saying a lockdown isn’t necessary.
Why do you think the government should allow the opposition free hits?
First reaction was a draw, the subsequent clips and various hostages to fortune weren't great for him though.
I mean, it's not an aUsTrAlIaN sTyLe PoInTs SyStEm but that was a Johnsonian commitment to be parsed on a symbolic rather than literal level like "I'll pay for the abortion" and the Muir Éireann border.
Here in Germany there is a legitimate elected coalition government. The proportion of people complaining about the voting system here is tiny compared to the UK. Once you've persuaded some Germans that their government is less legitimate than the UK's I'll start listening to your nonsense.
And no coalitions don't count unless they were a defined coalition standing in the election united (like the Coalition in Australia) since the public did not vote for them.
All the Nordic countries have well-defined coalitions which won majorities using d'Hondt PR.
But I wouldn't call a government illegitimate if it wins a majority under the geneally-accepted current system. They should however avoid rhetoric that suggests that they had a majority of votes ("The British people overwhelmingly endorsed us", that sort of thing)..
I think Jerzewska is right. She is one of the main customs experts after all. Obviously this government won't admit the main effect of Brexit is to create red tape.
Not in any other way.
Big_G's original statement was "most legitimate government in recent history"
Yet the 2010-15 coalition could claim to represent a majority of the votes cast in a way that the current government cannot.
Just looking back through the thread and it does seem there is meaningful mis-reading of each other's posts to make a pre-existing point; pretty much like some of our politicians!
On the private sector debate, it seems perfectly reasonable to me to say that Foxy and Big_G are correct because I read them speaking about slightly different things. Whilst private hospitals in some areas may not have been used as much as expected, without a doubt the private sector has played a key role in PPE manufacturer, ventilators, testing, in feeding the nation etc. Public and private working together is key, not setting them against each other.
Have a good morning.
Vanilla 'rona
Unless you are suggesting it is run by an unelected Spad, in which case it is not.
To me it is obvious that these graphics, like a lot of Trump iconography, have a fascist flavour to them. Themes like extreme patriotism, violence and dominance, aggression and anger, militarism and authority, all feature strongly. Luckily, Trump doesn't have a political philosophy so isn't really a fascist. He's just a narcissist who knows which buttons to press. Some of his supporters and henchmen are though I think. My guess is that the American Republic will survive Trump but he has certainly awoken something disturbing in US society. None of us should need reminding how dangerous fascism is.
A party runs in the policy of painting Buckingham Palace blue (and nothing else) and wins 35% of the vote.
Another party wins 20% support for their sole policy of painting it red.
They agree to form a coalition.
@IanB2 @PClipp et al argue that it legitimate because they received over 50% of the vote
@Philip_Thompson argues that no one voted for a coalition government with a compromise policy of painting Buckingham Palace purple and therefore it is illegitimate
"gaslighting"
Life is seriously too short to try to work out what it means.
A neologism too far.