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  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    How very dare Cummings prioritize new houses over loft insulation...
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    Sandpit said:

    .

    Closing down the failing schools, and in many places replacing the management and reopening them as academies, was way overdue before yet another generation of pupils were failed by them. The reforms weren't perfect in every way, but more children are now getting a good education than was previously the case.

    Where it's relevant to today, is that it showed up the institutional inertia across government, a civil service full of people who thought 'Yes, Minister' was a documentary, made to highlight their role in frustrating the government of the day. This is what the government are determined to address, against the howls of anguish from the entrenched interests.
    I think the evidence on the effectiveness of the Academies programme is more mixed than you suggest. I am not an ideological opponent of Academies (my own kids attend them) but I think one needs to be really focused on the evidence rather than simply asserting that educational reforms have been transformative when they really haven't.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    DavidL said:

    A "Rooseveltian approach" is not saying he is like Roosevelt. It gives an idea (for those who know a bit more history than most) of what they are trying to do.

    When I do my couch to 5km challenge I get encouragement from my good pal Michael Johnson. By listening to him and taking his encouragement am I comparing myself to one of the greatest runners of all time? I hardly think so.

    Its childish.
    Do you call your efforts Johnstonian, though... ?
  • https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1277514816609976321

    Huh, I didn't know he voted against HS2. That's a poor decision from Starmer, HS2 is vital.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177

    p.s. You have an awful lot of credibility on this topic - which is why they don't like you bringing up this particular sore point.
    Nothing you say on this topic is of any relevance. You are as obsessed as the people you claim to hate. It’s frankly embarrassing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    What advantage would it be to the Chinese - or anybody else for that matter - to have the first vaccine if it didn't work or had bad side effects?
    There's no election pending in China.
    A combination of wanting to sell seven billion of them, and wanting to show the world that they're at the forefront of medicine?

    (Whist really hoping we all forget about the dodgy food markets).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Do any of you do any trading or anything like that? I've recently got into oil

    Just make sure you close your positions in time. You don't want to get a call from Cushing, Oklahoma saying the tanker's arrived and where would you like to put the stuff?
  • Just make sure you close your positions in time. You don't want to get a call from Cushing, Oklahoma saying the tanker's arrived and where would you like to put the stuff?
    I'm trading CFDs that automatically close before expiry, so no risk at present but thanks for the advice.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033
    Sandpit said:

    A combination of wanting to sell seven billion of them, and wanting to show the world that they're at the forefront of medicine?

    (Whist really hoping we all forget about the dodgy food markets).
    Well that wouldn't work "if it didn't work or had bad side effects", would it?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    kinabalu said:

    It is better than not fighting racism at all. Which would be the preference of most of the people who are upset by the Starmer photo or trying to use it against him.
    I wouldn't say that was true at all
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137
    DavidL said:

    Well lets take the Dom one as an example since he so triggers you. There are approximately 430k people working in the Whitehall civil service. Do you really believe for a moment that Dom wants to take an axe to all of them? Or is he looking for some slightly more dynamic leadership at the top? I mean, what do you think might be a more accurate description?

    History suggests he would happily fire all 430k if they didn't endorse his latest scheme
  • theakestheakes Posts: 959
    Latest Wisconsin poll, Trump 46 Biden 45!!! Trafalgar Group.
  • How come Brexiteers are so supportive of Dominic Cummings when they hate unelected bureaucrats? Or is it just British exceptionalism which is actually covering thinly veiled racism again
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,607

    We didn't lose six years for nothing. We kept throughout our unemployment rate lower than most other European nations running deficits like we were - and we eliminated Brown's deficit that his hubris created.

    Can you name any other nation with a comparable deficit to run better unemployment or growth figures than ours over the past decade? Any examples at all please?
    "We didn’t do as badly as some others" does not mean that we couldn’t have done better.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1277514816609976321

    Huh, I didn't know he voted against HS2. That's a poor decision from Starmer, HS2 is vital.

    Presumably reflected impact of Euston rebuilding on his constituents? I think some residents were treated quite shabbily. Hopefully as LotO he will take a more big picture view. Of course the case for HS2 may be weaker post Covid but I suspect it still makes sense (I love trains so may be biased on this).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,272
    Sandpit said:

    Looks like Leicester is going to be the pilot site for the 'tactical lockdown' plans, it's unlikely that the industry in the town isn't to some extent responsible for the spike in cases there.
    Nah, just 2 more weeks for pubs, restaurants and hairdressers to stay closed. Not sure what the limits geographically are, and it was a charactestically crap bit of communication from the government.

    Numbers of inpatients stable over June, so not a second wave so much as a long fat tail.

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1277510025347506176?s=19
  • https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1277567223041794054

    Well done Scotland and I am sure most will think, this is fantastic news for the UK as a whole.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137
    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1277567743315849216

    What this? Another Brexiteer folding like a cheap suit?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,324

    @Big_G_NorthWales you were doing so well for a few weeks but now it's back to CCHQ propaganda from you, what a shame. Of course we all knew you'd find a way to go back to being a Johnson fanboy eventually.

    Were you here when Big G penned his tory party resignation letter, sealed the Basildon Bond envelope with his own tears and then never sent it? It was fucking mint.

  • It seems like the Tories are slowing giving up ground to the EU, what a surprise
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344

    Really? Sounds interesting!

    Much more interesting than some of that which is on the site at the moment. I suppose that's what discussing Trump does to us!
    A fairly normal pursuit for a twentyish presentable bloke. Nowadays I would hesitate to comment on the getting off with beautiful 20 year old women demographic, let alone speculate on their motivations.

    However as with so many areas, I believe PB has a hands-on expert on the subject.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    TOPPING said:

    Previously member of the Labour party.
    I want ever a member of Labour, I just used to vote for them
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033
    theakes said:

    Latest Wisconsin poll, Trump 46 Biden 45!!! Trafalgar Group.

    Yes, that pollster has a 'C minus' rating on 538. They include it in their latest Wisconsin values and have ....... Biden 8% ahead of Trump.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/wisconsin/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,030
    Dura_Ace said:

    Were you here when Big G penned his tory party resignation letter, sealed the Basildon Bond envelope with his own tears and then never sent it? It was fucking mint.

    I sent it all right with copies to the Welsh party chairman and my local AM
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    I used to get off with beautiful 20 year old women, not any more.
    I still do. Of course she is not 20 anymore. But neither am I.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233

    I'm pretty sure Voltaire wasn't motivated by anti-Americanism.
    I was talking about the modern version - it doesn't take much to get pro European politicians talking about the wonders of Europe vs the US in quite a... nationalistic way.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Did you read it?

    They've made concessions first, so we've followed suit. That's how negotiations work, both parties compromise and that link says they blinked first. Of course we should follow through on that.

    What concessions we make - and what they make - is what matters, not the simple fact that we are making concessions either before or in this case after they did.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    How very dare Cummings prioritize new houses over loft insulation...
    Here's the thing though. The key word mentioned is that insulation is "boring".

    Now to be fair to Dom, it's a second-hand report. His actual views may be more nuanced than that.

    But, as someone who has the kind of physics qualifications that Dom C professes to respect, it shows the shallowness of his science-ness.

    Getting loft insulation right is boring. But it's also something that the UK hasn't got right in the past, doesn't cost much, pays for itself pretty quickly, improves people's standard of living by reducing fuel bills and benefits the environment.

    It's not sexy, but it's a no-brainer and the sort of thing where Dom's persuasive talents could actually do some good.

    It parallels the things that seem to have gone wrong with the management of the Virus. Huge management effort went into the Nightingale hospitals, the ventilator challenge, the app... if we look at the countries who are managing this thing well, they put their effort into old-school contact tracing much earlier than we did. When the inquiry comes, the government had better have a better excuse than contact tracing is boring.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 65,030
    Iran issue arrest warrant for Trump
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 437

    p.s. Isam - you have an awful lot of credibility on this topic - which is why they don't like you bringing up this particular sore point.
    Seems like one or two on here have deluded themselves that everyone who voted Conservative in 2019 shares their unpleasant views on these matters, displaying the same sort of hubris that brought the liberal consensus down a few years earlier.

    If Starmer continues behaving as he is, avoiding a culture war but doing what is right, and Tories keep trying to villify him for kneeling in support of an event marking George Floyd's death, it will do much to reaffirm their status as the Nasty Party. Please carry on!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    Scott_xP said:
    A brilliant illustration of David Cameron's famous comments about Twitter.

    Watching the remoaners Tweet-wanking with each other, while the government get on with what they were elected to do, is highly amusing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1277567223041794054

    Well done Scotland and I am sure most will think, this is fantastic news for the UK as a whole.

    Its a pity we are still dithering about opening things up though. Some shops today but not in shopping centres. Bars and restaurants who knows when? Barbers and hairdressers on 15th July. Spas and tattoo parlours (not that I ever use either) unspecified. It's chaotic and undermines acceptance of the remaining guidance which seems to be almost universally ignored as a result.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I was talking about the modern version - it doesn't take much to get pro European politicians talking about the wonders of Europe vs the US in quite a... nationalistic way.
    There's nothing wrong with nationalism. On its own it can be a virtue not a vice, it is when it is abused by extremists it becomes bad.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    Sandpit said:

    A brilliant illustration of David Cameron's famous comments about Twitter.

    Watching the remoaners Tweet-wanking with each other, while the government get on with what they were elected to do, is highly amusing.
    Insightful. Pat yourself on the back.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited June 2020
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Phil said:

    "We didn’t do as badly as some others" does not mean that we couldn’t have done better.
    We did well. We achieved what we wanted to (fixing Brown's mess), we grew and did better than all others.

    You're the one claiming, despite all evidence, that we should have done something other than what we did. Something other than what worked well. What is it then? What example is it that it works?

    Or are you claiming that despite us being best in class we could have been even better. Its that sort of hubris that led to Brown's deficit in the first place!
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    I think the evidence on the effectiveness of the Academies programme is more mixed than you suggest. I am not an ideological opponent of Academies (my own kids attend them) but I think one needs to be really focused on the evidence rather than simply asserting that educational reforms have been transformative when they really haven't.
    Yes, there's a school I know well that was falling apart because the LEA didn't help it properly when it really needed it; conversion to an academy should benefit that school a lot. (Though there are now schools which are having to be moved from one trust to another because academy conversion doesn't always work).

    Not everything Gove did at education was wrong. Lots was needed and some helped. But a lot of avoidable mistakes were made, because "are you sure this is wise, Sir?" was interpreted as the Intransigent Blob.
  • NevaNeva Posts: 14
    Charles said:

    Fair enough. It’s not a debate I’ve paid any attention to whatsoever (beyond converting one of the gents at my office to a unisex facility). That’s the only claim I’m aware of but I’ve not checked at all whether it’s accurate or fair.
    I hope the gent didn't mind being converted.
  • Yes, that pollster has a 'C minus' rating on 538. They include it in their latest Wisconsin values and have ....... Biden 8% ahead of Trump.
    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/wisconsin/
    They did, though, uniquely call Wisconsin correctly in 2016... albeit they overestimated Trump's lead there and elsewhere that they polled (indeed, Biden would narrowly win Wisconsin if this poll had the same error as in 2016).

    I agree paying too much attention to single polls rather than the average is a mistake, but equally let's not totally dismiss something as a rogue poll just because it's out of line, particularly when it's from a pollster that did reasonably well overall in 2016.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2020
    Very well said by Starmer.

    The way to separate the issues is by doing what Starmer and the Premier League is doing. Every single decent person should be saying Black Lives Matter - because they do. And we should ensure we demonstrate that through appropriate means.

    If an organisation says extreme things that aren't relevant to the catchphrase then sideline and ignore the organisation. That may sound arrogant, it might even be "appropriation" but its right to do.
  • Did you read it?

    They've made concessions first, so we've followed suit. That's how negotiations work, both parties compromise and that link says they blinked first. Of course we should follow through on that.

    What concessions we make - and what they make - is what matters, not the simple fact that we are making concessions either before or in this case after they did.
    Err, the posturing is irrelevant its the quantum of the "concessions" which do.

    The UK has accepted the LPF provisions and will enforce them and where it differs the EU will levy tariffs - literally the opposite of what "whisky for breakfast" Frost tweeted last week.

    The EU may not use the ECJ to adjudicate but another body will be set-up instead. An arrangement better known as a fig-leaf. The march towards BRINO continues.

    No spin, just sunlight continuing to wreak its damage on the Icarus of Brexit Britain.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,739

    Here's the thing though. The key word mentioned is that insulation is "boring".

    Now to be fair to Dom, it's a second-hand report. His actual views may be more nuanced than that.

    But, as someone who has the kind of physics qualifications that Dom C professes to respect, it shows the shallowness of his science-ness.

    Getting loft insulation right is boring. But it's also something that the UK hasn't got right in the past, doesn't cost much, pays for itself pretty quickly, improves people's standard of living by reducing fuel bills and benefits the environment.

    It's not sexy, but it's a no-brainer and the sort of thing where Dom's persuasive talents could actually do some good.

    It parallels the things that seem to have gone wrong with the management of the Virus. Huge management effort went into the Nightingale hospitals, the ventilator challenge, the app... if we look at the countries who are managing this thing well, they put their effort into old-school contact tracing much earlier than we did. When the inquiry comes, the government had better have a better excuse than contact tracing is boring.
    Given that loft and cavity wall insulation has been free for almost all people for the past 20 years I suspect all the low hanging fruit has been caught.

    What is now left with older homes is the harder and far more expensive items such as external or internal wall insulation.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,565
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1277533762436370432

    Yes. And that's Johnson's problem with the post.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 27,530
    Foxy said:

    Nah, just 2 more weeks for pubs, restaurants and hairdressers to stay closed. Not sure what the limits geographically are, and it was a charactestically crap bit of communication from the government.

    Numbers of inpatients stable over June, so not a second wave so much as a long fat tail.

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1277510025347506176?s=19
    Perhaps Soulsby should show some leadership and put forward his own plans ?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Err, the posturing is irrelevant its the quantum of the "concessions" which do.

    The UK has accepted the LPF provisions and will enforce them and where it differs the EU will levy tariffs - literally the opposite of what "whisky for breakfast" Frost tweeted last week.

    The EU may not use the ECJ to adjudicate but another body will be set-up instead. An arrangement better known as a fig-leaf. The march towards BRINO continues.

    No spin, just sunlight continuing to wreak its damage on the Icarus of Brexit Britain.
    No, the link says the EU has conceded on LPF provisions. Which means a looser agreement with the potential for retaliatory tariffs but that's what we've been calling for.

    The UK was the one demanding it. It was Frost himself who first suggested that if zero tariffs were what was getting in the way of the EU backing down on the LPF then the UK would be prepared to have tariffs.

    Barnier wasn't interested in that but fast forward a month or two later and now Frost's solution is winning the day. The "concession" is to follow through with what we suggested months ago. Long may we continue to concede if that's how negotiations are going!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1277533762436370432

    Yes. And that's Johnson's problem with the post.

    Indeed that's not what the post should be.

    The job should not be saying "you can't do that". The job should be saying "if you want to do that, you must do this and the consequence will be these and the risk is that". Simply saying no should not be the job.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,233
    DavidL said:

    Its a pity we are still dithering about opening things up though. Some shops today but not in shopping centres. Bars and restaurants who knows when? Barbers and hairdressers on 15th July. Spas and tattoo parlours (not that I ever use either) unspecified. It's chaotic and undermines acceptance of the remaining guidance which seems to be almost universally ignored as a result.
    I would be cautious about the news from Scotland until we are out of the weekend reporting "shadow"
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556

    How come Brexiteers are so supportive of Dominic Cummings when they hate unelected bureaucrats? Or is it just British exceptionalism which is actually covering thinly veiled racism again

    Because he's appointed by our elected Government, and those in Europe are not. It's really not difficult to understand.

    Oh, and as for the accusation of 'British exceptionalism covering thinly veiled racism' - that's a prime example of the leftwing culture war right there, which you hypocritically pretend to have no part in.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    Did you read it?

    They've made concessions first, so we've followed suit. That's how negotiations work, both parties compromise and that link says they blinked first. Of course we should follow through on that.

    What concessions we make - and what they make - is what matters, not the simple fact that we are making concessions either before or in this case after they did.
    If we hadn't been repeatedly told it was impossible, short of complete surrender, I would think we might be on course to get a deal.
  • No, the link says the EU has conceded on LPF provisions. Which means a looser agreement with the potential for retaliatory tariffs but that's what we've been calling for.

    The UK was the one demanding it. It was Frost himself who first suggested that if zero tariffs were what was getting in the way of the EU backing down on the LPF then the UK would be prepared to have tariffs.

    Barnier wasn't interested in that but fast forward a month or two later and now Frost's solution is winning the day. The "concession" is to follow through with what we suggested months ago. Long may we continue to concede if that's how negotiations are going!
    Can you read? Admitedly its a tiny NIB but the LPF's will be enforced and you can tell that because it says that the ECJ will not be policing them. Therefore someone or something else will, almost certainly the UK government actually with EU oversight which the EU already does for standards monitoing in other trade agreements.

    What has the EU actually conceded here? A different body to oversee the LPFs - big win!

    This wasn't what Frost said in his tweet last week that he could accept - https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1276158485743439873

    All it took was a weekend and possibility of retaliatory tarrifs is accepted.

  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    edited June 2020
    Ah, he's having to explain why he's adopting the pose of the people who want to defund the police

    Do the BBC read this site? I thought I was supposed to be the only person who had noticed

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137

    Because he's appointed by our elected Government

    No, he isn't.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,235
    On topic - Trump's going to run. Doubtless he'll be liking the poll which has him ahead in WI today.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    Indeed that's not what the post should be.

    The job should not be saying "you can't do that". The job should be saying "if you want to do that, you must do this and the consequence will be these and the risk is that". Simply saying no should not be the job.
    Rubbish. If a Minister proposes something that is illegal, for instance, the correct advice is to say no, you cannot do that. If a Minister proposes to do something that is dishonest or corrupt, no is the answer which should be given.

    I have been in exactly this situation when I worked as a government legal advisor.

    Speaking truth to power is exactly what advisors should be doing and those in power should listen.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    DavidL said:

    We have control of schools but have had the uncorrected disaster of Curriculum for Excellence resulting in our falling down the Pisa tables because the government is scared of taking on the EIS and making teachers accountable for their results.

    We have control of our police and the total embarrassment of Police Scotland and a police force that seems ever more focused on politics rather than actual crime prevention.

    We have control of our criminal justice system. Its a disgrace, constantly fiddling with new crimes to make political points, trying to tip the playing field in favour of complainers because the rape conviction rate is deemed not high enough and letting psychopaths out of overcrowded prisons because some boxes have been ticked.

    We have control of our University sector. We are now in serious danger of real damage to our leading 3 Universities because of a dishonest system which involved Scottish students getting fewer and fewer places whilst being subsidised by the English students paying 5x as much for the same course.

    The sad truth is that the opposition both Tory and Labour are not really addressing these issues either. Instead we have election after election dominated by the sterile debate of independence and Scotland's urgent problems remain neglected or an after thought.

    It is of course an irony that the cumulative damage done by this neglect pushes Scotland further and further from being a viable country.
    David, I have to agree with much of what you say , however the boil needs lancing before we can proceed. Independence and then we can elect the government we want. As long as we are ruled from England and only given pocket money the SNP will be in power. We need to throw off the yoke and start afresh.
  • NevaNeva Posts: 14
    Alistair said:

    American betting

    Trump is 89% to win the nomination
    Trump is 33.5% to win the Presidency
    GOP is 35.5% to win the Presidency

    My brain is short circuiting to work out what Trump not getting the Nom would mean for the GOP winning party price?

    If those figures represented objective truth then the conditional probability of the GOP winning the presidency given that their candidate wasn't Trump would be 18% :-)

    (0.18 * 0.11) + (0.335) = 0.355
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Can you read? Admitedly its a tiny NIB but the LPF's will be enforced and you can tell that because it says that the ECJ will not be policing them. Therefore someone or something else will, almost certainly the UK government actually with EU oversight which the EU already does for standards monitoing in other trade agreements.

    What has the EU actually conceded here? A different body to oversee the LPFs - big win!

    This wasn't what Frost said in his tweet last week that he could accept - https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1276158485743439873

    All it took was a weekend and possibility of retaliatory tarrifs is accepted.

    If these reports are true the EU has conceded we will not be tied into dynamic alignment of EU LPF rules.

    As for what Frost said last week, never believe anything until its been officially denied. Of course if both sides never made compromises then a deal would be impossible.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    You really have become utterly unhinged on this one. Even the most rabid Tories cannot seriously think that Starmer associates himself with "violence against the police, extreme left Marxists and anti Semitism". Starmer has condemned all violence, and has already done plenty to demonstrate that he has no time for far left Marxists or anti-semitism.

    You are losing credibility with your frequent posts of Starmer taking the knee and your bizarre interpretation of it.
    I agree but he does have one thing right - the shiny almost electric suit.

    That could cost votes in some key marginals.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Fantastic, jumped before he was pushed.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/1277567223041794054

    Well done Scotland and I am sure most will think, this is fantastic news for the UK as a whole.

    It is the result of Nicola following Devi Sridhar's advice in her advocacy of a very tight lockdown aimed at supressing the Sars-Cov2 virus completely in Scotland: the same policy as New Zealand. Contrast with the much higher infection rates and erratic lockdown in England. You know what comes next.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Rubbish. If a Minister proposes something that is illegal, for instance, the correct advice is to say no, you cannot do that. If a Minister proposes to do something that is dishonest or corrupt, no is the answer which should be given.

    I have been in exactly this situation when I worked as a government legal advisor.

    Speaking truth to power is exactly what advisors should be doing and those in power should listen.
    No, if a Minister proposes something that is illegal for instance the correct advice would be to say that an Act of Parliament would be required to change the law to permit it.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    Does that make having racist MPs OK then?

    SO don't you know they have a majority of 80 and can ride roughshod over anybody and anything they want , as we are often told by the fanboys on here.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    Iran issue arrest warrant for Trump

    They want him to win that badly?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    David, I have to agree with much of what you say , however the boil needs lancing before we can proceed. Independence and then we can elect the government we want. As long as we are ruled from England and only given pocket money the SNP will be in power. We need to throw off the yoke and start afresh.
    Agreed.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,017
    I wonder if he has seen the EHRC report. Word was that it was being delivered to Labour today.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189

    They want him to win that badly?
    In fairness he has done far, far more damage to the Great Satan than they have ever managed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    Really? Sounds interesting!

    Much more interesting than some of that which is on the site at the moment. I suppose that's what discussing Trump does to us!
    Trump brings out the worst in everyone. It is his singular skill but he does possess it in spades.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    I understand that but it is what keeps this issue alive.

    In a representative democracy it is not sufficient to simply win a referendum and that is it. It is necessary to both win a referendum and elect a government and a Parliament that respects the referendum.

    Scotland post-2014 and the UK from 2017 failed in this respect. In Scotland the referendum result, Holyrood and the government do not align. They do not respect each others results.

    In the UK from 2017 to 2019 we had the same problem. The House of Commons did not reflect the referendum result and MPs like Grieve went out of their way to try and reverse it. It is only by changing the composition of the Commons in December 2019 that now the Commons reflects the will of the voter in the referendum and we can start to move on.

    Scotland needs to decide what it wants. To use a vulgar expression it needs to "crap or get off the pot". Then it needs its government, referendum result and Holyrood to be aligned on respecting the result.
    Yet we are constantly told we can only do what we want at the whim of Bozo the Clown despite constant mandates for an independence vote..
  • isamisam Posts: 41,342
    isam said:

    Ah, he's having to explain why he's adopting the pose of the people who want to defund the police

    Do the BBC read this site? I thought I was supposed to be the only person who had noticed

    People used to give the Nazi salute before they knew what they were really up to
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    Dura_Ace said:

    He's piled all his pre-Rona flab back on and now has the posture of Monty Burns with a "mighty hump".
    Rabbit in the headlights look for sure, totally out of his depth.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    Yet we are constantly told we can only do what we want at the whim of Bozo the Clown despite constant mandates for an independence vote..
    That's because you voted No in 2014. Had you voted Yes then it would be moot, but you voted No and so now are tied in to the whims of the UK government as a part of the UK.

    Bear that in mind next time. Next time, if you don't want the same thing to happen again vote Yes.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137
    Maybe the NATS are right. the Union is fucked...

    https://twitter.com/ja_sheldon/status/1277564572451442688
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    The confidence which some posters have in their own beliefs is breathtaking! To be so sure of your views and so strident in expressing them leaves me cold. I would rather there was some evidence of rational thought posted alongside the blunt ‘this is what I think and I’m right’ approach. They don’t add to the wider understanding of the electorate but I’m sure they are happy in their self supporting bubble continually reassuring each other they are right.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137

    No, if a Minister proposes something that is illegal for instance the correct advice would be to say that an Act of Parliament would be required to change the law to permit it.

    Assuming it was only illegal domestically.

    There remain many, many occasions when No is the only right answer.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,177
    isam said:

    People used to give the Nazi salute before they knew what they were really up to
    Just stop before you embarrass yourself any further.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103
    Sandpit said:

    It's also exactly why they were all so determined to get Cummings a couple of months ago.

    The civil service reform is very the reason he was appointed, Johnson, Gove and Cummings have been planning this for years.
    Yes , a bunch of nodding donkeys will be a huge improvement. Cummings will be able to have as many eye tests as he likes, Gove can slither and lie and Bozo can do nothing.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    Assuming it was only illegal domestically.

    There remain many, many occasions when No is the only right answer.
    No, because we can leave international organisations too. We can even leave the UN if we wanted to.

    The government may determine changing the law is not a price it wants to pay for the action it wants, but that should be its decision to make. The role of the Civil Service isn't to say No - it is to say How even if How is uncomfortable.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    No, if a Minister proposes something that is illegal for instance the correct advice would be to say that an Act of Parliament would be required to change the law to permit it.
    Exactly. GO'D's comment is a perfect illustration of the problem. The senior SC are supposed to support the government with their agenda, not oppose and obstruct for the sake of opposing and obstructing. Of course there will be cases where the minister needs to be sat down, but these should be the exception rather than the norm.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,670
    isam said:

    Ah, he's having to explain why he's adopting the pose of the people who want to defund the police

    Do the BBC read this site? I thought I was supposed to be the only person who had noticed

    Wasn't it Mayor Sadiq who was talking about Defunding The Police?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137

    No, because we can leave international organisations too. We can even leave the UN if we wanted to.

    The government may determine changing the law is not a price it wants to pay for the action it wants, but that should be its decision to make. The role of the Civil Service isn't to say No - it is to say How even if How is uncomfortable.

    You are still wrong

    If the Government wants to release Sarin gas, the job of the civil service is to say no.

    No ifs. No buts.

    Leaving the UN would not make it legal, or indeed sane.

    Get a grip.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,103

    Only old racists are getting frothy about Starmer taking the knee in support of Black Lives Matter. Have you not noticed every Premier League footballer doing the same thing?
    They have little choice as they would be hounded out, kneeling for their wallets in many cases I bet.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    Old King Cole mentions Magic Money Tree, and in the very next post HY gives us yet another daft suggestion for spaffing taxpayers’ money up the wall.

    I am old enough to remember when the Conservative Party prided itself on fiscal responsibility. Now it’s all F*ck Business and Ra Ra Ra Range Rovers All Round.
    Although it will never be admitted, everything is being sacrificed on the altar of Brexit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,189
    I find Sir Kneel quite dull and overly earnest but has shown a very good grip of where the levers of power are in the party and how to get hold of them. Hopefully the Corbyn nightmare is coming to an end and Labour will be a civilised party again.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:

    You are still wrong

    If the Government wants to release Sarin gas, the job of the civil service is to say no.

    No ifs. No buts.

    Leaving the UN would not make it legal, or indeed sane.

    Get a grip.
    You "get a grip".

    The original quote was: Gus O'Donnell, former cab sec, to @MattChorley: the job is quite often to say, "No, prime minister, that's not right; you can't do that"

    Do you think the government is "often" proposing to release Sarin gas?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited June 2020
    O/T

    More than 50% of electricity being generated by wind/solar/hydro.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    TOPPING said:

    Nah bollocks. Big G sometimes likes to set himself up as the site's policeman. CHB can say what he wants and if Big G doesn't like it he can ignore his posts.
    IMO almost everything is fine on here except one thing - groupthink. If that ever gets a hold the site will lose its USP.

    General comment but as I typed it I might have been thinking of the wokaphobic antiwokerati after the witching hour. 👀
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,137

    Do you think the government is "often" proposing to release Sarin gas?

    I think it often proposes things that are stupid. Or illegal.

    And the Civil Service should point that out, which is what Gus O'Donnell said.

    That means saying no.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    He's doing a good job today, to give him credit for needle-threading.

    He is clearly saying both that racism is wrong, and also that a somewhat shadowy organisation that wishes to abolish the police and publishes anti-Semitic conspiracy theories doesn't enjoy his support.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    If these reports are true the EU has conceded we will not be tied into dynamic alignment of EU LPF rules.

    As for what Frost said last week, never believe anything until its been officially denied. Of course if both sides never made compromises then a deal would be impossible.
    Yes, we've lost by having the EU giving us exactly what we were asking for.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    O/T

    More than 50% of electricity being generated by wind/solar/hydro.

    https://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk

    Great news. With nothing at all coming from coal. The government has done a fantastic job at switching our energy from coal to renewables in the past decade.

    Not that you'd know it listening to the opposition or the media.
This discussion has been closed.