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  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    The Labour Party doesn’t pay her salary. She gets that just for being an MP. Starmer can’t kick her out of the Commons even if he withdrew the whip.

    You are having a pointless argument about the semantics of the word “fired” with the wrong person. You clearly think she should have had the whip withdrawn as well as being fired from the shadow cabinet. That’s your prerogative. I have no dog in the fight as I am not a member nor a supporter of the Labour Party. He could have “fired” her in a very literal sense into the sun or out of a cannon for all I care.
    Starmer can't kick her out of the Commons immediately but see for example Williamson: removing the whip removes them from the Commons eventually.

    I'm saying she wasn't fired. Fired means removed from the organisation. Gone. She's not gone she is still Labour. Demoting someone isn't firing them.

    Williamson had the whip removed. He was fired. Starmer hasn't removed the whip from a single anti-Semite yet.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442
    edited June 2020
    Off to check on the odds on Ian Lavery succeeding Sir Keir Starmer?

    https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1276204792050790405
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,162
    "Incels could become the new Vikings

    Our culture is creating a flotsam of sexual no-hopers — with disastrous consequences
    BY MARY HARRINGTON"

    https://unherd.com/2020/06/incels-could-become-the-new-vikings/
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    What about the Papua New Guinea cannibalism remark?
    I don't remember that one.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,064

    I'm curious as to what proportion of the country are:

    1) Immediately joining the rush for shops / beaches / takeaways / pubs

    2) Cowering in their own homes

    3) Going along pretty much as normal
    My guess would be 10%/25%/65% assuming 3 means following govt guidelines most of the time with the occasional breach/use of own judgement.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    justin124 said:

    The fact that that the PM has made such statements is surely evidence enough of a government infected by racism.
    What race wears the niqab in your imagination? No race does. Heck no religion does either.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    Starmer can't kick her out of the Commons immediately but see for example Williamson: removing the whip removes them from the Commons eventually.

    I'm saying she wasn't fired. Fired means removed from the organisation. Gone. She's not gone she is still Labour. Demoting someone isn't firing them.

    Williamson had the whip removed. He was fired. Starmer hasn't removed the whip from a single anti-Semite yet.
    Great. Thank you for your clarification on how you interpret the word “fired”. It is appreciated and noted. I will bear it in mind.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129

    Off to check on the odds on Ian Lavery succeeding Sir Keir Starmer?

    https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1276204792050790405

    Surely even the Labour left as represented by the disgraced libeller Stephen Walker wouldn’t be that bloody stupid?

    I mean at this moment, with the government on the floor, the Leader of the Opposition landing weekly blows, the national economy in chaos and the best chance of a breakthrough Labour have had in 25 years, surely they wouldn’t launch a challenge over the right of their members to be racist bastards if they choose?

    I mean - surely not...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Off to check on the odds on Ian Lavery succeeding Sir Keir Starmer?

    https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1276204792050790405

    LOL
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987

    Picanninies is inappropriate but it's clear from context he was attacking others racism. Like the language in the Germans Faulty Towers episode. Not appropriate today but the meaning at the time was clear.

    Letterboxes is entirely appropriate language and has nothing to do with race.
    You just can't hear the dog whistles. Those who needed to hear them, heard them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129

    I don't remember that one.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5327984.stm
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DougSeal said:

    Great. Thank you for your clarification on how you interpret the word “fired”. It is appreciated and noted. I will bear it in mind.
    When you used it and said you fired someone from your organisation what did you mean?

    Did you mean they were removed from your organisation?
    Or did you mean they were kept in your organisation in a different role?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987
    ydoethur said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5327984.stm
    "The flamboyant frontbencher". Wow, that should have stuck!
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,398


    I'm curious as to what proportion of the country are:

    1) Immediately joining the rush for shops / beaches / takeaways / pubs

    2) Cowering in their own homes

    3) Going along pretty much as normal

    Using a word like "cowering" tells me all I need to know in terms of any sense of objectivity.

    There are clearly people who are still nervous about and careful about going out. In my part of East London, I'd say 10-20% are mask and/or glove wearers. They are predominately but not exclusively older people but some parents have put masks on their children.

    The demise of the "night economy" has clearly had an impact. "She only comes out at night" as Mr Hall once opined but if she did now she'd find little or nothing open.

    Yes, there are some queues at some shops - mainly shoe and clothes shops such as Primark which have no online presence. At supermarkets, social distancing and one way systems have collapsed despite repeated tannoy announcements.

    As for "going along as normal", there are those who seem oblivious to what has happened and have gone on for the past 3 months with little or no change except an absence of work.

    Those on furlough have time and money to enjoy life (I'm told) so are taking the advantage of good weather to head to the beach. As to how many of those coming off the train at Bournemouth had worn a face covering on the way, I suspect very few.

    On London buses, I'd day 50% of the capacity (10 for single deck and 20 for double deck buses) aren't wearing masks.

    To answer the question, 30-40-30 would be my guess.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129

    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.

    We had another poster on here who was very good at moving broads.

    Oh, sorry, you said ‘abroad?’
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,834
    As a ballpark figure the UK is much the same, though may not always be true as testing becomes more available. In the US it may shift the other direction as I understand that Federal funding for testing ends shortly.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    It’s clear now that vann

    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.

    Care to elaborate?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    ydoethur said:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5327984.stm
    Ah that. Yeah he was clearly talking about historical PNG (which absolutely was like that) but I can understand why modern PNG took offense and why he apologised for causing offence.

    That's like referring to Greek meaning Ancient Greek rather than Modern Greece.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,834
    edited June 2020

    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.

    In my experience foreigners are just as stupid, just in different ways. When looking at what we get wrong, it is easy to overlook what we get right.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987

    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.

    Can I suggest the USA...or Brazil...or Turkey?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,162

    I'm getting very close to moving abroad.

    The collective stupidity of many people in this country beggars belief.

    I still think locking down young and healthy people was a mistake in the first place.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377

    Can I suggest the USA...or Brazil...or Turkey?
    Peru and Ecuador are nice at this time of year too.
  • kicorsekicorse Posts: 437
    On Long-Bailey, I get the point that it was a very severe punishment for what she did, but sackings from cabinets are rarely about just treatment of the minister. On party interests, it was an easy decision.

    But Starmer's decision to kneel in support of BLM now looks very smart, politically. That's the focus right know for many people who will be most upset about her sacking. Appearing woke, but brutally tough on anything that could possibly be twisted round and presented as association with anti-Semitism: much better than doing the opposite.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987
    ydoethur said:

    Surely even the Labour left as represented by the disgraced libeller Stephen Walker wouldn’t be that bloody stupid?

    I mean at this moment, with the government on the floor, the Leader of the Opposition landing weekly blows, the national economy in chaos and the best chance of a breakthrough Labour have had in 25 years, surely they wouldn’t launch a challenge over the right of their members to be racist bastards if they choose?

    I mean - surely not...
    Well that being the case, the lunatic left will achieve all they ever wanted. Permanent Boris Johnson governance.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845

    Off to check on the odds on Ian Lavery succeeding Sir Keir Starmer?

    https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1276204792050790405

    That is quite some take on events... what have they been smoking?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160
    edited June 2020
    The state of many of the replies to the original tweet....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,398
    Andy_JS said:


    I still think locking down young and healthy people was a mistake in the first place.

    I don't know how that could or would have worked. Define "young and healthy" for example.

    It either had to be all or nothing - had we chosen nothing there would have been many more cases and, I believe, more deaths and we still would have had an economic hit.

    There's a delusion among some that had we not locked down (and the process started a week before Johnson's announcement), we could have carried on normally and there'd have been no problems.

    You won't normally hear this from me but I think in the light of what was happening, Johnson was right to lock the country down - had he done so a week earlier, the number of cases and deaths would have been lower.

  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    When you used it and said you fired someone from your organisation what did you mean?

    Did you mean they were removed from your organisation?
    Or did you mean they were kept in your organisation in a different role?
    This is a fascinating discussion on semantics but fruitless. It is perfectly possible to be dismissed/fired/sacked/canned from a role in an organisation for misconduct but stay with the same organisation. I have fired people from being board directors who have remained employed by the company. Any number of cabinet ministers and shadow cabinet ministers have been described as being fired or sacked (for example, google “Damian Green Sacked” or “Hilary Benn Fired”) but remain MPs. You clearly believe that she should have had the whip withdrawn. You may be correct. I don’t care.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987
    edited June 2020

    That is quite some take on events... what have they been smoking?
    Don't forget Lavery is a bone fide North Eastern "coalminer"*. He's not some South London council estate oik made good!

    * Lavery's definition of coal miner might not be your's.
  • It would be nice to have a competent Shadow Education Sec, perhaps somebody who was a teacher would be a good start
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987

    It would be nice to have a competent Shadow Education Sec, perhaps somebody who was a teacher would be a good start

    Ydoethur's got his hand up!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,160

    Off to check on the odds on Ian Lavery succeeding Sir Keir Starmer?

    https://twitter.com/skwawkbox/status/1276204792050790405

    Are they struggling for clicks these days?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    stodge said:

    I don't know how that could or would have worked. Define "young and healthy" for example.

    It either had to be all or nothing - had we chosen nothing there would have been many more cases and, I believe, more deaths and we still would have had an economic hit.

    There's a delusion among some that had we not locked down (and the process started a week before Johnson's announcement), we could have carried on normally and there'd have been no problems.

    You won't normally hear this from me but I think in the light of what was happening, Johnson was right to lock the country down - had he done so a week earlier, the number of cases and deaths would have been lower.

    Hmm. Defining ‘young and healthy’ isn’t that hard is it?

    If you are under 50 and have no underlying health conditions you are at low risk - just look at the stats.

    What is far harder is preventing those groups mixing with higher risk groups - but that might not be beyond the wit of man.

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,845
    edited June 2020

    Don't forget Lavery is a bone fide North Eastern "coalminer"*. He's not some South London council estate oik made good!

    * Lavery's definition of coal miner might not be your's.
    Coal miner - someone who worked so that Lavery could be given vast amounts of their union dues/compensation money?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442

    Don't forget Lavery is a bone fide North Eastern "coalminer"*. He's not some South London council estate oik made good!

    * Lavery's definition of coal miner might not be your's.
    What does Ian Lavery have in common with Prince Andrew?

    Because I have NO IDEA.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,369

    Picanninies is inappropriate but it's clear from context he was attacking others racism. Like the language in the Germans Faulty Towers episode. Not appropriate today but the meaning at the time was clear.

    Letterboxes is entirely appropriate language and has nothing to do with race.
    It's quite clearly racist, it's absurd that you can't see it. Part of a pattern of using derogatory language about racial, religious and sexual minorities. No wonder 5000 Britain First members have joined the Tories since Johnson became leader.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,398
    edited June 2020
    Evening all :)

    Forgotten I hadn't done that. More interesting developments from Surrey this evening:

    https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2020-06-25/spelthorne-council-gives-wework-4.5m-rent-holiday-as-covid-crunch-hits

    Ian Harvey resigned before he would likely have been dismissed as Council leader this evening.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    It's quite clearly racist, it's absurd that you can't see it. Part of a pattern of using derogatory language about racial, religious and sexual minorities. No wonder 5000 Britain First members have joined the Tories since Johnson became leader.
    Picanninies? Of course its racist.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,667
    kinabalu said:

    Could a politician sacked from cabinet or shadow cabinet ever conceivably bring an unfair dismissal case that would have a good chance of succeeding?
    Interesting question for the Cabinet. For the shadow Cabinet, probably not since they are (apart from the LOTO) unpaid.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,656

    Interesting question for the Cabinet. For the shadow Cabinet, probably not since they are (apart from the LOTO) unpaid.
    You have to be an employee to bring an unfair dismissal claim. Ministers are officers not employees.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795

    Interesting question for the Cabinet. For the shadow Cabinet, probably not since they are (apart from the LOTO) unpaid.
    What’s your view on the sacking Nick?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,398


    Hmm. Defining ‘young and healthy’ isn’t that hard is it?

    If you are under 50 and have no underlying health conditions you are at low risk - just look at the stats.

    What is far harder is preventing those groups mixing with higher risk groups - but that might not be beyond the wit of man.

    First you would have had to insist everyone carried some form of identification to prove their age so plenty of work for the Police or should we have got the Army out to check ids to keep the oldies at home and safe?

    The other little problem is people can be infectious without showing symptoms - as we are seeing in America at the moment, it's not those who are feverish and coughing who are spreading the inflection but those who look and feel perfectly well but have the virus and are spreading it.

    Keeping people at home and reducing social contact to a minimum reduced the spread of the infection (the dreaded "R" number). That was the point of lockdown - it wasn't about penalising the fit and the healthy, it was about making sure those who had the virus (even if it was for them mild) didn't pass it on to those for whom it would be much more serious.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,972
    After rcs assured us that California residents are acting responsibly out in the street, I see the Cali Governor is attributing the surge in infections to gatherings at home, including family gettogethers, children’s play dates and birthday parties.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    For the first time this season I'm not sure what result I want in the City game.

    On the one hand if City drop points we win the title, OTOH I'd rather win it on the pitch and think winning it on the pitch at the Etihad would be great.

    If City drop points I'll celebrate, but if they don't I won't be disappointed.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    stodge said:

    First you would have had to insist everyone carried some form of identification to prove their age so plenty of work for the Police or should we have got the Army out to check ids to keep the oldies at home and safe?

    The other little problem is people can be infectious without showing symptoms - as we are seeing in America at the moment, it's not those who are feverish and coughing who are spreading the inflection but those who look and feel perfectly well but have the virus and are spreading it.

    Keeping people at home and reducing social contact to a minimum reduced the spread of the infection (the dreaded "R" number). That was the point of lockdown - it wasn't about penalising the fit and the healthy, it was about making sure those who had the virus (even if it was for them mild) didn't pass it on to those for whom it would be much more serious.
    Yes, I understand the point of it! Given that governments worldwide were completely shell shocked there was little they could do but tend to overcautiousness.

    But, it’s not the best instrument for the future. Local lockdowns, mass testing and some form of risk segmentation is the way forward.

    We seem capable of awarding driving licences based on risk profiles, why not this? Most people observe the law.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129

    Ydoethur's got his hand up!
    Actually, I wouldn’t necessarily agree. Being a good minister is very different from being a good teacher.

    The best education secretary of the last 40 years was John McGregor. Because although he knew little about education he was willing to learn.

    If Gove and Morgan were the worst by a distance, then Estelle Morris is third. Because however well meaning, she was also incompetent.

    And she was a teacher.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    IanB2 said:

    After rcs assured us that California residents are acting responsibly out in the street, I see the Cali Governor is attributing the surge in infections to gatherings at home, including family gettogethers, children’s play dates and birthday parties.

    7000 new cases in CA reported today, I think.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,269

    That is quite some take on events... what have they been smoking?
    Must be accurate.

    The Skawkbox has a 100% rating on Newsguard...

    https://skwawkbox.org/2020/06/22/newsguard-renews-skwawkboxs-100-trustworthiness-rating/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129

    Interesting question for the Cabinet. For the shadow Cabinet, probably not since they are (apart from the LOTO) unpaid.
    And the whips.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,064
    He hasnt declared war on the left, he is the left. He has told them if they want to be involved drop the obsession with Israel.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129
    MattW said:

    Must be accurate.

    The Skawkbox has a 100% rating on Newsguard...

    https://skwawkbox.org/2020/06/22/newsguard-renews-skwawkboxs-100-trustworthiness-rating/
    I think my favourite moment in the entire Turley case was when a barrister told the judge nobody was stupid enough to believe a word Skwawkbox said, because it was so transparently a far left propaganda site.

    The joke being it was the defence counsel, trying to persuade the judge that Walker’s comments were not damaging to Turley.

    The judge did not seem to be entirely convinced by this argument...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,795
    It would indeed require a ♥️ of absolute diamond not to laugh at the Corbynite fall from grace.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,030
    .
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I wouldn’t necessarily agree. Being a good minister is very different from being a good teacher.

    The best education secretary of the last 40 years was John McGregor. Because although he knew little about education he was willing to learn.

    If Gove and Morgan were the worst by a distance, then Estelle Morris is third. Because however well meaning, she was also incompetent.

    And she was a teacher.
    With all due respect, I think you a little more able than Estelle.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,030
    edited June 2020

    What does Ian Lavery have in common with Prince Andrew?

    Because I have NO IDEA.
    Me either, but I did come across this.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10689115/Anti-racism-MP-under-fire-after-posing-with-son-blacked-up-to-look-like-Michael-Jackson.html

    (I’d be very surprised indeed if he’d been on Epstein’s private jet.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,129
    This thread has

    been rescinded due to a conflict of interest.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,168
    Scott_xP said:
    Cases up 47% (!!) in 14 days according to NYTimes.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_xP said:
    Seems reasonable considering positive cases are going down it's inevitable tracks would go down too.

    And if people are at home they may not have any close contacts besides the person they caught it from.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,972
    Scott_xP said:
    The position in California would appear to challenge such a glib conclusion.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987
    ydoethur said:

    Actually, I wouldn’t necessarily agree. Being a good minister is very different from being a good teacher.

    The best education secretary of the last 40 years was John McGregor. Because although he knew little about education he was willing to learn.

    If Gove and Morgan were the worst by a distance, then Estelle Morris is third. Because however well meaning, she was also incompetent.

    And she was a teacher.
    In all fairness to Estelle, she eventually realised she was a non-swimmer in the deep end.

    My late Father's least favourite was Kenneth Baker, he of the Baker, or Inset day. My father once commented that 'Baker' days were commonly referred to at his school as 'B' days (bidets). They served a function, but no one was quite sure how to use them.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 30,987

    Seems reasonable considering positive cases are going down it's inevitable tracks would go down too.

    And if people are at home they may not have any close contacts besides the person they caught it from.
    Do you write this stuff yourself, or do you get help from Dominic Cummings?
  • Novara are crazy
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,442

    NEW THREAD

  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884

    The union flag being flown upside down used to be a maritime distress signal. Fairly apt for Bozo. Ian Paisley would have had something to say about it!
    brilliant.

    HINT: it's not.
  • Gary_BurtonGary_Burton Posts: 737
    I think it wouldn't be a shock if Biden won Iowa (or even Ohio). I think Texas and Georgia are a stretch as I don't quite regard them as true swing states.

    I think the absolute most Biden can get is around 413 EVs (including Texas and Georgia) and the most likely scenario as of now is Biden winning up to 335 EVs (similar to Obama in 2012) although he's probably very unlikely to beat Trump by more than 6-8%.

    On some level it's hard to predict efficiency of vote distribution. I was surprised how good Obama's was in 2012 for example and how close he came to retaining North Carolina (as well as retaining Florida).
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069

    Can @Scrapheap_as_was update us on Lord Falconer?

    Rumours circling Westminster...

    Slow burner....
This discussion has been closed.