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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Starmer is ever to become PM he’s likely going to need some sort of relationship with the next LD leader

The Lib Dem leadership election is now down to just two with with the Oxford West and Abingdon MP, Layla Moran taking on the current acting leader, the Kingston MP Ed Davey who, of course, stood a year ago go against Jo Swinson and lost. Moran is the odds-on favourite.

Read the full story here

OnlyLivingBoy

First?

OnlyLivingBoy

People on previous thread asking whether it is true that US law enforcers are trained by Israeli military or if it's just an anti-Semitic trope. I had no prior on this but had a quick look and Amnesty USA thinks it is real. Their piece below seems to be well sourced.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

Philip_Thompson

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug. Make them an irrelevant protest party and portray himself as the only viable alternative.

Swindon played into that role nicely. If Moran wins she looks likely to continue that course.

Beibheirli_C

Curse of the new thread:

FPT

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

IanB2 said:

kinabalu said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

kinabalu said:

I wonder in what % of trials the judge privately disagrees with the verdict of the jury?

20% maybe?

Doesn't mean the judge is right though. Having been on a jury and been impressed at how seriously it took its duty I am a big fan of jury trials, they are a cornerstone of our justice system.

Certainly not arguing for a different system. Can't really think of a better one. I was just wondering how often the judge thinks "Oh, wow. Wasn't expecting that." Is it hardly at all - like 5% or so - or is it quite often, e.g. 15% 20% type thing?

I have never been called. A pity since I would like to do it - although not on a gory one.

I had the weirdest jury experience - I was visiting another city for the day and was approached by a policeman outside the county court and pressganged on the spot to join a jury to make up the numbers. I didn't even know that was possible.

I would not have thought so either. Although this can happen with witnesses for a wedding and it's not so far from that.

Re jury duty, my ideal would be to pull off a Henry Fonda, the lone "not guilty" hold-out against 11 people jumping to the conclusion that the dodgy looking geezer in the dock had dun it, who slowly but surely turns them all around with quiet, remorseless logic.

I am not suitable to serve, in other words.

I thought of doing a reverse Fonda. I was the ony guilty verdict and wondered if I could turn the other 11 around but it was a trivial case and I decided not to bother.

Really? You were 1 against 11? Gosh. That is uncomfortable.

I was two against ten. A late night punch up in a kebab shop. The evidence clearly pointed to guilty as charged but the rest of the jury clearly thought the case had been brought for bad reasons, that there was some blame on all sides (both probably true) and gave little weight to the police evidence.

At the time I was annoyed at having spent a whole week and arriving at the wrong answer. Looking back I am more sanguine and quite possibly the jury had a point in disregarding the strict technical question we were supposed to be answering and reaching a conclusion on wider grounds.

That's certainly one of the traditional defences of juries. They have the power and the right to look past the technicalities and take a broader view. I think I am right in saying that a lot of advances in our statutes are due to the reluctance of juries to convict where the punishment plainly didn't fit the crime. (Theft of bread and hands chopped off come to mind.)

Personally however I would convict anyone found in the vicinity of a kebab shop.

You clearly have not visited the correct type of kebab shop! There was a kebab wagon in a layby in Purton Road, just off Delta Business Park in Swindon who did one of the best donner kebabs with extra chilies and raw onions...... MMMmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Not only do you frequent Kebab shops, BC, but you admit to being in Swindon.

Have you no shame?

I frequented it for 18 months, but then the contract ended

MaxPB

No Starmer can't aim for minority government. It's a huge turn off for voters. He needs to make his pitch as a majority PM, which means destroying the Lib Dems and winning back seats in Scotland.

Unfortunately, so far the evidence is that he's too bland to do either.

Philip_Thompson

Neither Cameron nor Johnson sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

geoffw

rcs1000 said:

I just built my first Hackintosh, using an Intel NUC. And despite hearing from everyone how incredibly difficult it would be, it seem sot be working fine off just a couple of hours of work.

Macs will use ARM-based Apple processors instead of Intel -- is Hackintosh dead?

Today at WWDC 2020, Apple confirmed the rumors -- the company is ditching Intel processors for future Mac computers. While there are technically still some future Intel-powered Macs in the pipeline, Apple intends to eventually switch to its own in-house chips exclusively.

https://betanews.com/2020/06/22/apple-macos-intel-arm/

Peter_the_Punter

@Luckyguy1983 FPT

Yes, it's a problem with the system and I don't know the answer. I can refer you to a non-political example. I mentioned earlier the Hanratty case. One of the many things that went wrong was that they held the trial in Bedford, where feelings were running high, rather than at the Old Bailey. It's often a good thing for the jury to have 'local knowledge', but not of course local prejudice.

Not what sure what you do about that.

CarlottaVance

https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1276103043248001024?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276103796838617088?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276104113315631105?s=20

NorthofStoke

In these turbulent times the LDs might have a huge breakthrough as a pragmatic centrist party. Positioning as Labour lite or Labour but with some more wacky woke ideas? Why bother?

KS standing on a strongly left manifesto or LP membership still scaring the moderate voters who are fed up to the back teeth with the Tories would create a real opening. If they go the wrong way then I suspect major party break-ups and realignment before the next election as a large part of the electorate, possibly a majority, will be very estranged from all three national parties.

ClippP

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

MaxPB

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Why wouldn't the Tories then team up with Brexit Party or whatever Nige replaces them with in January?

Philip_Thompson

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

LOL! What their makes it seem like I'm afraid of them coming to an arrangement? I think it's a mistake for Labour to do that so said so and why. Do you think I'm lying? Do you read me saying I think one thing and read it as the opposite?

I'm being honest not using reverse psychology (I highly doubt Starmer gives a fuck what I say on a blog) and if Labour want to make a mistake I have no concerns about that 😂

Richard_Nabavi

If the LibDems choose Layla Moran, this ex-Conservative voter will be more concerned at the possibility of the LibDems having influence on government than of Sir Keir Starmer becoming PM.

HYUFD

Indeed, unless Starmer gets a Blair 1997 style swing of over 10% he will not get an overall majority so to become PM he would likely need the support of 30 odd LD MPs if they pick up some Tory seats in London and the South.

In which case Davey could become Clegg to Starmer's Cameron

williamglenn

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Philip_Thompson

MaxPB said:

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Why wouldn't the Tories then team up with Brexit Party or whatever Nige replaces them with in January?

Because that would be a mistake! Isolate Nige and make him and irrelevant sideshow that's the right thing to do.

If our rivals want to share the prizes between them let them split their votes. Maybe they should reach arrangements with the Greens too. Maybe Co-op MPs should split from Labour and be a fourth left wing party. Oh I'm so afraid ... 😂

CarlottaVance

Here's hoping.....

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1276078157246926849?s=20
https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1276078158702313473?s=20

Philip_Thompson

williamglenn said:

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Jews first then capitalism.

geoffw

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

El_Capitano

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

isam

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Selebian

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug. Make them an irrelevant protest party and portray himself as the only viable alternative.

As a sometime LD supporter (and even member for a brief period over a decade ago) I'm sorry to say that I think that has largely already happened.

isam

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1276103043248001024?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276103796838617088?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276104113315631105?s=20

Obviously a cunning plan by faultless Sir Keir to over promote, then let her fail so he could dismiss her. Genius

RobD

El_Capitano said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

That's core LD territory. It'll be very hard to squish those. Chances are LD seats will increase at the next election, not decrease.

Although I think you should also look at the LD share where Labour are a close second. Suspect there are many more of those.

Pulpstar

MaxPB said:

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Why wouldn't the Tories then team up with Brexit Party or whatever Nige replaces them with in January?

Team up ? The Tories swallowed that vote whole at GE19.
Good reasons they're on 40%+ whilst manifestly handling the 'rona very poorly.

OnlyLivingBoy

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1276103043248001024?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276103796838617088?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276104113315631105?s=20

Is all criticism of Israel now anti Semitic? It does seem that the claim that Is police departments received training from Israel is basically true - see the Amnesty USA report down thread. Is it valid to question whether police should receive training from a country with a poor human rights record? Surely it is. Is it worrying that US civilian police are being trained by an occupying military force? Surely yes.
I'm not a fan of RLB or the Corbynite left in general, but if all criticism of Israel or of others in relation to anything involving Israel is now not allowed then I think that is a real problem.

geoffw

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

How do you delete a post? Aside from editing one, which leaves the altered post there?

Pulpstar

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Are you sure ? Plenty of Kneel Starmer on the previous thread.

isam

On topic, a post I made before but seems to have disappeared; the lib dems want to end stop and search, whilst Starmer adopts the pose of an organisation that wants to defund the police. So there is common ground to work on

Meanwhile, in Brixton, BLM supporters gloat as their rally turns in to a riot with police chased with swords and police cars smashed with hammers

HYUFD

El_Capitano said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

Indeed, of the top 30 LD target seats eg Winchester, Esher and Walton, Guildford, Surrey SW, Wantage, Cheltenham, Wokingham, St Ives, Guildford, Hitchen and Harpenden etc only a handful eg Wimbledon and Finchley and Golders Green have ever been held by Labour even under Blair with only 2, Cambridge and Sheffield Hallam held by Labour not the Tories.

http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat

dixiedean

El_Capitano said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

Indeed. There isn't much electorally Labour can do about the LDs. Other than Sheffield Hallam they aren't in competition anywhere I can think of as far as Westminster that is.
Edit. See @HYUFD has made the point with more facts as always...

eek

El_Capitano said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

Yep - the Lib Dems have a tendency to reach places Labour can't reach.

isam

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Are you sure ? Plenty of Kneel Starmer on the previous thread.

Kneel Starmer! That's it! 😊

Yes, I posted a comment on topic with footage of the Brixton BLM riots and Sir Keir kneeling but that's gone it seems. Not to worry

rottenborough

RobD said:

El_Capitano said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug.

Starmer "squishing" the Lib Dems would just give seats to the Conservatives, and therefore make a Labour government less likely:

Twickenham: LD 56%, Con 34%, Lab 9%
Bath: LD 47%, Con 36%, Lab 15%
Kingston & Surbiton: LD 51%, Con 34%, Lab 11%
Oxford West & Abingdon: LD 53%, Con 38%, Lab 7%
Richmond Park: LD 53%, Con 41%, Lab 5%
St Albans: LD 50%, Con 39%, Lab 9%

That's core LD territory. It'll be very hard to squish those. Chances are LD seats will increase at the next election, not decrease.

Although I think you should also look at the LD share where Labour are a close second. Suspect there are many more of those.

The key for LDs has always been having a serious backbone of council seats in the target seats.

No idea about council seats in the list above, but it's always a factor.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1276109096517763072

https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1276110071391563776

kinabalu

OnlyLivingBoy said:

People on previous thread asking whether it is true that US law enforcers are trained by Israeli military or if it's just an anti-Semitic trope. I had no prior on this but had a quick look and Amnesty USA thinks it is real. Their piece below seems to be well sourced.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

OK. Interesting. Thanks (since it was me asking).

So it could be - just specifically looking at this case and not extrapolating - that rather than the anti-Israel comment coming from a place of Jew hate the charge of antisemitism is knee jerk and uninformed and coming from a place of Left hate.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1276107745679282177

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/jillongovt/status/1276099497794441216

Theuniondivvie

isam said:

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Are you sure ? Plenty of Kneel Starmer on the previous thread.

Kneel Starmer! That's it! 😊

Yes, I posted a comment on topic with footage of the Brixton BLM riots and Sir Keir kneeling but that's gone it seems. Not to worry

I can still see a big foto of SKS kneeling in a rather garish blue suit. Perhaps there's a special 'too incendiary for Unwokies' filter been installed.

kinabalu

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Jews first then capitalism.

This is a disgusting comment. Get a grip man.

BluestBlue

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/ChrisMasonBBC/status/1276107745679282177

The kneeling twat is now talking about other people's judgement...

Pulpstar

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Are you sure ? Plenty of Kneel Starmer on the previous thread.

Kneel Starmer! That's it! 😊

Yes, I posted a comment on topic with footage of the Brixton BLM riots and Sir Keir kneeling but that's gone it seems. Not to worry

I can still see a big foto of SKS kneeling in a rather garish blue suit. Perhaps there's a special 'too incendiary for Unwokies' filter been installed.

Quantum Starmer

I think it's an early post in a thread that's been gobbled up by the phantom first post monster that lurks.

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1276085147574702081

https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1276087286883586048

Luckyguy1983

Peter_the_Punter said:

@Luckyguy1983 FPT

Yes, it's a problem with the system and I don't know the answer. I can refer you to a non-political example. I mentioned earlier the Hanratty case. One of the many things that went wrong was that they held the trial in Bedford, where feelings were running high, rather than at the Old Bailey. It's often a good thing for the jury to have 'local knowledge', but not of course local prejudice.

Not what sure what you do about that.

Thanks for the response. Short of exporting and importing dispassionate juries (even that would be difficult considering the interconnectedness of the world online), I am also stumped. Perhaps the very model is broken?

ClippP

MaxPB said:

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Why wouldn't the Tories then team up with Brexit Party or whatever Nige replaces them with in January?

I expect the erstwhile Bexit voters did not realise just how corrupt and incompetent the Conservatives were. So they voted for them last year. But surely the scales have fallen from their eyes by now. A Conservative-BP tie up will only drive even more decent and moderate Conservatives into the arms of the Lib Dems.

eristdoof

OnlyLivingBoy said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/Dannythefink/status/1276103043248001024?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276103796838617088?s=20
https://twitter.com/ExStrategist/status/1276104113315631105?s=20

Is all criticism of Israel now anti Semitic? It does seem that the claim that Is police departments received training from Israel is basically true - see the Amnesty USA report down thread. Is it valid to question whether police should receive training from a country with a poor human rights record? Surely it is. Is it worrying that US civilian police are being trained by an occupying military force? Surely yes.
I'm not a fan of RLB or the Corbynite left in general, but if all criticism of Israel or of others in relation to anything involving Israel is now not allowed then I think that is a real problem.

I'm know nothing about the original accusation, but I do agree with your general comment that criticism of specific actions by the Israeli government is often blanket labelled as anti-semitic, including by the Israel Prime Minister

I find this appaling. Shutting down legitimate discussion of politics because it has been proposed by a specific religion or race is in itself a form of racism. I would have thought that Israelis would be quick to recognise this.

Fishing

I'm sure the new leader, Davey or the other one, will explain to me the point of the LibDems post-Brexit, but I can't see one at present.

They have to be more than just a none of the above party to get beyond a tiny rump of support.

MaxPB

Wirecard file for bankruptcy in Germany. How long until regulators and politicians in Germany blame it on the FT and London based hedge funds?

Luckyguy1983

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

We all seem to be quite down on people who clean toilets don't we? Toilet cleaning - tee hee. I am not sure why. Not only is it a vital job, it's a job which you can indeed do badly, indifferently, well, or superbly. You can also if you feel so inclined, take on another cleaner, and another, and build a multi-million pound facilities management empire - it's been done.

That is one example of aspiration and it's a good one. But what about working instead to bring down the system that has brought you to such a sorry pass? Is this not aspiration too?

If I wasn't clear before, let me be so now - I am rejecting the rather patronising notion that being a cleaner is 'a sorry pass'. I also don't see how the fall of capitalism will lead to the role of toilet cleaner being eliminated - unless society is going to collapse so quickly we'll all be digging holes in the ground instead.

NorthofStoke

Fishing said:

I'm sure the new leader, Davey or the other one, will explain to me the point of the LibDems post-Brexit, but I can't see one at present.

There is a real and increasing gap in the market for a centrist party, I suspect the LDs will spurn it as the members are supping too deeply from the intoxicating cup of ideological fervour.

Dura_Ace

OnlyLivingBoy said:

People on previous thread asking whether it is true that US law enforcers are trained by Israeli military or if it's just an anti-Semitic trope. I had no prior on this but had a quick look and Amnesty USA thinks it is real. Their piece below seems to be well sourced.
https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom-are-many-u-s-police-departments-training-with-a-chronic-human-rights-violator-israel/

Does it really matter? ACAB no matter who trains them.

eristdoof

NorthofStoke said:

In these turbulent times the LDs might have a huge breakthrough as a pragmatic centrist party. Positioning as Labour lite or Labour but with some more wacky woke ideas? Why bother?

Wasn't this what the LDs were saying time last year after the results of the Euro elections?

tlg86

These are the 90 plus seats where the LDs came out of GE2019 in a competitive second place.

I think 90 is overstating it somewhat:

http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/battleground/targets/liberal-democrat

Seat number 90:

http://www.electionpolling.co.uk/constituencies/uk-parliament/runnymede-and-weybridge

isam

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Pulpstar said:

isam said:

geoffw said:

I saw several pictures of a humble-but-proud Sir Keir on this thread and they all disappeared. Has the politbureau photo-editing machine been at work?

It seems so, what happened? Posts deleted?

Are you sure ? Plenty of Kneel Starmer on the previous thread.

Kneel Starmer! That's it! 😊

Yes, I posted a comment on topic with footage of the Brixton BLM riots and Sir Keir kneeling but that's gone it seems. Not to worry

I can still see a big foto of SKS kneeling in a rather garish blue suit. Perhaps there's a special 'too incendiary for Unwokies' filter been installed.

Maybe! " too incendiary for Unwokies" Good one haha really funny 😂

Rascal suit, agreed

Richard_Nabavi

MaxPB said:

Wirecard file for bankruptcy in Germany. How long until regulators and politicians in Germany blame it on the FT and London based hedge funds?

It really is the most amazing story. Mislaying €1.9bn is going it a bit by any standard. Really embarrassing for Germany, especially since their regulators tried to blame the FT for misleading the markets when they reported on oddities in the accounts.

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1276087773200551936

eek

HYUFD said:

Indeed, unless Starmer gets a Blair 1997 style swing of over 10% he will not get an overall majority so to become PM he would likely need the support of 30 odd LD MPs if they pick up some Tory seats in London and the South.

In which case Davey could become Clegg to Starmer's Cameron

Even then I actually don't think it's enough - Starmer needs to either win seats that Labour never had or find a way back in Scotland.

While personally Boris is crap I really cannot see how Labour wins a majority next time round. Even if the Lib Dems had 30 odd seats the 2 parties together still won't have enough.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/AndrewSparrow/status/1276116456921608194

Pulpstar

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1276085147574702081

https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1276087286883586048

Biden is clearing 50%. Hillary never did. Biden, flawed as he is, speaks to the soul of America. And that's why he'll win.

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/FolPoliticsUK/status/1276101947154739201

eek

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1276087773200551936

Sienna were however far better than a lot of the other options.

Now it's possible that those polls are wrong but I doubt they are out by 5% let alone the 10%+ that is required for Trump to win.

BannedinnParis

really want Layla Moran to win. If you thought JC was a desperately poor politician, you really ain't seen nothing yet.

edmundintokyo

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1276087773200551936

The national polls were good, and the state polls are showing a substantially smaller lead for Biden than the national polls, so if the state polls are garbage then that's a positive sign for Biden.

kinabalu

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

We all seem to be quite down on people who clean toilets don't we? Toilet cleaning - tee hee. I am not sure why. Not only is it a vital job, it's a job which you can indeed do badly, indifferently, well, or superbly. You can also if you feel so inclined, take on another cleaner, and another, and build a multi-million pound facilities management empire - it's been done.

That is one example of aspiration and it's a good one. But what about working instead to bring down the system that has brought you to such a sorry pass? Is this not aspiration too?

If I wasn't clear before, let me be so now - I am rejecting the rather patronising notion that being a cleaner is 'a sorry pass'. I also don't see how the fall of capitalism will lead to the role of toilet cleaner being eliminated - unless society is going to collapse so quickly we'll all be digging holes in the ground instead.

Automation. It's the "luxury communism for all" thing that Ash Sarkar has as her twitter strapline. Used to be followed by "fucks like a champion" but this has gone now. As has Toby Young's "Classical Liberal". His now says "President of the Free Speech Union."

But, yes, a great point you make about low paid jobs often having a value in excess of their paltry remuneration. I agree with this very strongly. I also believe the opposite - that high paid jobs often have remuneration in excess of their value.

isam

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

Scrapheap_as_was

I see RLB is showing why she was the Jezza cult pick...

Slow learner too. Didn't she have a similar blind-spot during the leadership hustings?

MaxPB

Richard_Nabavi said:

MaxPB said:

Wirecard file for bankruptcy in Germany. How long until regulators and politicians in Germany blame it on the FT and London based hedge funds?

It really is the most amazing story. Mislaying €1.9bn is going it a bit by any standard. Really embarrassing for Germany, especially since their regulators tried to blame the FT for misleading the markets when they reported on oddities in the accounts.

It encapsulates the German approach to regulation perfectly and how scandals like VW were allowed to happen with the tacit agreement of the government and regulator.

Wirecard was seen as the German fintech champion and the politicians needed to protect it at all costs, especially from hostile British hedge funds who all want to leave the EU and hate Germany.

Philip_Thompson

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Jews first then capitalism.

This is a disgusting comment. Get a grip man.

Long Bailey is a disgusting anti-Semite and that Starmer kept her in his Shadow Cabinet speaks volumes. She should have been sent packing with Burgon and the rest of the barnacles in the Labour Party.

Pulpstar

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

We all seem to be quite down on people who clean toilets don't we? Toilet cleaning - tee hee. I am not sure why. Not only is it a vital job, it's a job which you can indeed do badly, indifferently, well, or superbly. You can also if you feel so inclined, take on another cleaner, and another, and build a multi-million pound facilities management empire - it's been done.

That is one example of aspiration and it's a good one. But what about working instead to bring down the system that has brought you to such a sorry pass? Is this not aspiration too?

If I wasn't clear before, let me be so now - I am rejecting the rather patronising notion that being a cleaner is 'a sorry pass'. I also don't see how the fall of capitalism will lead to the role of toilet cleaner being eliminated - unless society is going to collapse so quickly we'll all be digging holes in the ground instead.

Automation. It's the "luxury communism for all" thing that Ash Sarkar has as her twitter strapline. Used to be followed by "fucks like a champion" but this has gone now. As has Toby Young's "Classical Liberal". His now says "President of the Free Speech Union."

But, yes, a great point you make about low paid jobs often having a value in excess of their paltry remuneration. I agree with this very strongly. I also believe the opposite - that high paid jobs often have remuneration in excess of their value.

Universal Basic income solves this conumdrum I think.

isam

BannedinnParis said:

really want Layla Moran to win. If you thought JC was a desperately poor politician, you really ain't seen nothing yet.

Apparently Labour being seen as more centrist will allow moderate Tories to vote Lib Dem (Lib Dems seemingly being a holding bay for people from other parties who are a bit disillusioned)

I thought Lib Dems did well when they had a decent leader (Ashdown, Kennedy, Clegg) and badly when the leader was not so good (Farron and Swinson), but maybe it is just all about Labour

Scott_xP

Scrapheap_as_was said:

I see RLB is showing why she was the Jezza cult pick...

Slow learner too. Didn't she have a similar blind-spot during the leadership hustings?

https://twitter.com/DavidRoe92/status/1276117872297881602

eristdoof

Fishing said:

I'm sure the new leader, Davey or the other one, will explain to me the point of the LibDems post-Brexit, but I can't see one at present.

They have to be more than just a none of the above party to get beyond a tiny rump of support.

Ending the voting system that returns 95% of seats in a country to a party that won only 50% of the vote would ge a good start.

contrarian

isam said:

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

The important thing is the police are extra vigilant against a backlash from the far right

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/wpjenna/status/1276118289769521153

IanB2

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug. Make them an irrelevant protest party and portray himself as the only viable alternative.

Swindon played into that role nicely. If Moran wins she looks likely to continue that course.

The point is that the Tories need to lose seats that Labour can not win, however transformative Starmer turns out to be. This is of course because very many actual and potential LD voters prefer the Tories to Labour, particularly in those southern seats.

The LibDems disappearing won’t change that.

williamglenn

HYUFD said:

Indeed, unless Starmer gets a Blair 1997 style swing of over 10% he will not get an overall majority so to become PM he would likely need the support of 30 odd LD MPs if they pick up some Tory seats in London and the South.

The 2019 result is as anomalous as the 2017 result. Both were distorted by the aftershocks of the Brexit referendum.

tlg86

Maxine Peake is a bit like the WLM people. It may be factually correct, but you have to ask why is it being highlighted?

isam

contrarian said:

isam said:

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

The important thing is the police are extra vigilant against a backlash from the far right

Fo sho'

If that bloke hadn't taken a leak in the street, or had got a proper sentence instead of the derisory 14 days when captured, none of this would have happened. Who can blame people for being a tad miffed?

Defund the Po-lice (or the Feds)

Take that knee Sir Keir

MattW

Heh. R4 interviewing a chap from the Swimming Pools Assocation about the boom in swimming pools.

"What about Hot Tubs?"
"Hot tubs are the devil's own swimming pool."

Indeed, said Hieronymous Bosch:

Pulpstar

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Indeed, unless Starmer gets a Blair 1997 style swing of over 10% he will not get an overall majority so to become PM he would likely need the support of 30 odd LD MPs if they pick up some Tory seats in London and the South.

The 2019 result is as anomalous as the 2017 result. Both were distorted by the aftershocks of the Brexit referendum.

Now we're out of the EU, how do the Lib Dems position themselves. I note rejoining is apparently not on Davey (Haven't looked at Moran)'s agenda. I think that's sensible.

Philip_Thompson

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug. Make them an irrelevant protest party and portray himself as the only viable alternative.

Swindon played into that role nicely. If Moran wins she looks likely to continue that course.

The point is that the Tories need to lose seats that Labour can not win, however transformative Starmer turns out to be. This is of course because very many actual and potential LD voters prefer the Tories to Labour, particularly in those southern seats.

The LibDems disappearing won’t change that.

No they don't. Labour plus SNP can easily get a majority between them.

IanB2

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/FolPoliticsUK/status/1276101947154739201

What you don’t have, you can’t lose.

contrarian

isam said:

contrarian said:

isam said:

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

The important thing is the police are extra vigilant against a backlash from the far right

Fo sho'

If that bloke hadn't taken a leak in the street, or had got a proper sentence instead of the derisory 14 days when captured, none of this would have happened. Who can blame people for being a tad miffed?

Defund the Po-lice (or the Feds)

Take that knee Sir Keir

Meanwhile the PMs office is tweeting that up to six people CAN meet, as long as they are two metres apart.

I mean quite apart from the politics of what happened last night, its just mind bendingly stupid.

ClippP

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/FolPoliticsUK/status/1276101947154739201

That presupposes that Johnson has any kind of moral authority to start with. But perhaps Tim Farron is just being kind.

isam

contrarian said:

isam said:

contrarian said:

isam said:

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

The important thing is the police are extra vigilant against a backlash from the far right

Fo sho'

If that bloke hadn't taken a leak in the street, or had got a proper sentence instead of the derisory 14 days when captured, none of this would have happened. Who can blame people for being a tad miffed?

Defund the Po-lice (or the Feds)

Take that knee Sir Keir

Meanwhile the PMs office is tweeting that up to six people CAN meet, as long as they are two metres apart.

I mean quite apart from the politics of what happened last night, its just mind bendingly stupid.

There were about 30 po-lice in Brixton last night being chased off by a bloke waving a big sword.. maybe he was just keen to enforce social distancing?

kinabalu

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Jews first then capitalism.

This is a disgusting comment. Get a grip man.

Long Bailey is a disgusting anti-Semite and that Starmer kept her in his Shadow Cabinet speaks volumes. She should have been sent packing with Burgon and the rest of the barnacles in the Labour Party.

You said that Rebecca Long Bailey wishes to see the destruction of the world's Jewry. That was crass and offensive in the extreme and you really ought to ask for the post to be deleted. Please reflect on this. If having done so, you still cannot see a problem with it, I despair of you.

eristdoof

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

We all seem to be quite down on people who clean toilets don't we? Toilet cleaning - tee hee. I am not sure why. Not only is it a vital job, it's a job which you can indeed do badly, indifferently, well, or superbly. You can also if you feel so inclined, take on another cleaner, and another, and build a multi-million pound facilities management empire - it's been done.

That is one example of aspiration and it's a good one. But what about working instead to bring down the system that has brought you to such a sorry pass? Is this not aspiration too?

If I wasn't clear before, let me be so now - I am rejecting the rather patronising notion that being a cleaner is 'a sorry pass'. I also don't see how the fall of capitalism will lead to the role of toilet cleaner being eliminated - unless society is going to collapse so quickly we'll all be digging holes in the ground instead.

Cleaners do a very important job. Sadly salaries are not determined by usefulness of the work done, but by supply and demand. There are a lot of people who are able to start a job cleaning at an hours notice, so the high supply is keeping the salaries of cleaners down.

IanB2

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Their real worry should be that our crooked voting system actually gets replaced.

The Tories would be relying on Labour breaking their promises and flunking reform, as they did last time.

eristdoof

Pulpstar said:

williamglenn said:

HYUFD said:

Indeed, unless Starmer gets a Blair 1997 style swing of over 10% he will not get an overall majority so to become PM he would likely need the support of 30 odd LD MPs if they pick up some Tory seats in London and the South.

The 2019 result is as anomalous as the 2017 result. Both were distorted by the aftershocks of the Brexit referendum.

Now we're out of the EU, how do the Lib Dems position themselves. I note rejoining is apparently not on Davey (Haven't looked at Moran)'s agenda. I think that's sensible.

Impressive use of the possesive apostrophe there.

Luckyguy1983

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

We all seem to be quite down on people who clean toilets don't we? Toilet cleaning - tee hee. I am not sure why. Not only is it a vital job, it's a job which you can indeed do badly, indifferently, well, or superbly. You can also if you feel so inclined, take on another cleaner, and another, and build a multi-million pound facilities management empire - it's been done.

That is one example of aspiration and it's a good one. But what about working instead to bring down the system that has brought you to such a sorry pass? Is this not aspiration too?

If I wasn't clear before, let me be so now - I am rejecting the rather patronising notion that being a cleaner is 'a sorry pass'. I also don't see how the fall of capitalism will lead to the role of toilet cleaner being eliminated - unless society is going to collapse so quickly we'll all be digging holes in the ground instead.

Automation. It's the "luxury communism for all" thing that Ash Sarkar has as her twitter strapline. Used to be followed by "fucks like a champion" but this has gone now. As has Toby Young's "Classical Liberal". His now says "President of the Free Speech Union."

But, yes, a great point you make about low paid jobs often having a value in excess of their paltry remuneration. I agree with this very strongly. I also believe the opposite - that high paid jobs often have remuneration in excess of their value.

Automated toilet cleaning, if and when it becomes widespread, will be a by-product of capitalism, not communism.

Slackbladder

tlg86 said:

Maxine Peake is a bit like the WLM people. It may be factually correct, but you have to ask why is it being highlighted?

Indeed. It's like the statement 'black people in the US are more likely to be murderers'. It's 'true' as a fact but then the question follows 'what point are you really making here?;.....

Scott_xP

https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1276122117067718656

IanB2

Beibheirli_C said:

Curse of the new thread:

FPT

Peter_the_Punter said:

Beibheirli_C said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

IanB2 said:

kinabalu said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

kinabalu said:

OnlyLivingBoy said:

kinabalu said:

I wonder in what % of trials the judge privately disagrees with the verdict of the jury?

20% maybe?

Doesn't mean the judge is right though. Having been on a jury and been impressed at how seriously it took its duty I am a big fan of jury trials, they are a cornerstone of our justice system.

Certainly not arguing for a different system. Can't really think of a better one. I was just wondering how often the judge thinks "Oh, wow. Wasn't expecting that." Is it hardly at all - like 5% or so - or is it quite often, e.g. 15% 20% type thing?

I have never been called. A pity since I would like to do it - although not on a gory one.

I had the weirdest jury experience - I was visiting another city for the day and was approached by a policeman outside the county court and pressganged on the spot to join a jury to make up the numbers. I didn't even know that was possible.

I would not have thought so either. Although this can happen with witnesses for a wedding and it's not so far from that.

Re jury duty, my ideal would be to pull off a Henry Fonda, the lone "not guilty" hold-out against 11 people jumping to the conclusion that the dodgy looking geezer in the dock had dun it, who slowly but surely turns them all around with quiet, remorseless logic.

I am not suitable to serve, in other words.

I thought of doing a reverse Fonda. I was the ony guilty verdict and wondered if I could turn the other 11 around but it was a trivial case and I decided not to bother.

Really? You were 1 against 11? Gosh. That is uncomfortable.

I was two against ten. A late night punch up in a kebab shop. The evidence clearly pointed to guilty as charged but the rest of the jury clearly thought the case had been brought for bad reasons, that there was some blame on all sides (both probably true) and gave little weight to the police evidence.

At the time I was annoyed at having spent a whole week and arriving at the wrong answer. Looking back I am more sanguine and quite possibly the jury had a point in disregarding the strict technical question we were supposed to be answering and reaching a conclusion on wider grounds.

That's certainly one of the traditional defences of juries. They have the power and the right to look past the technicalities and take a broader view. I think I am right in saying that a lot of advances in our statutes are due to the reluctance of juries to convict where the punishment plainly didn't fit the crime. (Theft of bread and hands chopped off come to mind.)

Personally however I would convict anyone found in the vicinity of a kebab shop.

You clearly have not visited the correct type of kebab shop! There was a kebab wagon in a layby in Purton Road, just off Delta Business Park in Swindon who did one of the best donner kebabs with extra chilies and raw onions...... MMMmmmmmmmmmm!!!

Not only do you frequent Kebab shops, BC, but you admit to being in Swindon.

Have you no shame?

I frequented it for 18 months, but then the contract ended

I am pleased that it was finally safe for you to return home.

contrarian

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

kinabalu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Does Rebecca Long-Bailey agree that the solution to the world's ills is to destroy capitalism?

Jews first then capitalism.

This is a disgusting comment. Get a grip man.

Long Bailey is a disgusting anti-Semite and that Starmer kept her in his Shadow Cabinet speaks volumes. She should have been sent packing with Burgon and the rest of the barnacles in the Labour Party.

You said that Rebecca Long Bailey wishes to see the destruction of the world's Jewry. That was crass and offensive in the extreme and you really ought to ask for the post to be deleted. Please reflect on this. If having done so, you still cannot see a problem with it, I despair of you.

The only thing that matters is whether it is true or not. Is it?

kinabalu

Pulpstar said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1276085147574702081

https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/1276087286883586048

Biden is clearing 50%. Hillary never did. Biden, flawed as he is, speaks to the soul of America. And that's why he'll win.

Trump also speaks to the soul of America - the bad bit.

But in 2016 he benefited from Hillary hate and also picked up plenty of "undeplorables" willing to give him a try. Just scraped over the line with that.

Not this time, as you say.

IanB2

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Or he needs to squish the LDs like a bug. Make them an irrelevant protest party and portray himself as the only viable alternative.

Swindon played into that role nicely. If Moran wins she looks likely to continue that course.

The point is that the Tories need to lose seats that Labour can not win, however transformative Starmer turns out to be. This is of course because very many actual and potential LD voters prefer the Tories to Labour, particularly in those southern seats.

The LibDems disappearing won’t change that.

No they don't. Labour plus SNP can easily get a majority between them.

Not so easily, and certainly not in one go.

Luckyguy1983

isam said:

contrarian said:

isam said:

What, or who, could have given these folk the idea that it was ok to be hostile to police officers?

"More than 20 police officers were injured in south London overnight after attempts to break up a street party triggered violent clashes, which have been widely condemned.

Videos of the incident shared on social media showed police vehicles being smashed and officers chased during skirmishes with a large crowd near the Angell Town estate in Brixton.

Police were called to the scene on Wednesday night after reports of a “large unlicensed music event” in Overton Road. When police tried to encourage the crowd to leave, a group became hostile towards officers, the Met said"

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/25/violence-at-street-party-brixton-leaves-more-than-police-injured

The important thing is the police are extra vigilant against a backlash from the far right

Fo sho'

If that bloke hadn't taken a leak in the street, or had got a proper sentence instead of the derisory 14 days when captured, none of this would have happened. Who can blame people for being a tad miffed?

Defund the Po-lice (or the Feds)

Take that knee Sir Keir

Surely it was Dominic Cummings and his car journey to Durham that's the real cause here? Before that - widely observed lockdown across the world. After that - race riots across the world. The timeline doesn't lie.

MaxPB

IanB2 said:

ClippP said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Neither Cameron nor May sought an arrangement with UKIP or the BXP to gain a majority despite the siren calls by many on the right to do so. They instead made their rival irrelevant to the point that in the latter case they couldn't even be bothered to stand candidates.

If the new LD leader can't find a reason for the party to be relevant the LOTO shouldn't gift them a reason.

Why are all the Tory posters so far afraid that the Lib Dems might come to some kind of arrangement with the Lbour Party?

Could it be that they realise that the FPTP voting system will fail the Conservatives if the other parties all gang up against them?

Their real worry should be that our crooked voting system actually gets replaced.

The Tories would be relying on Labour breaking their promises and flunking reform, as they did last time.

Labour would be absolutely insane to get rid of FPTP, the left would fracture into about 20 different parties within 10 years. It would remove their status as the UK's second party very quickly. The only party that might gain from "reform" of voting is the Lib Dems neither Labour nor the Tories will, but Labour will lose a lot more than the Tories.

Alistair

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1276087773200551936

This is simply not true. They were bad I. The rust belt but were reasonable elsewhere.