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Yay, more people interested in bashing the government rather than getting schools open.Scott_xP said:2 -
In Russia anything under 10% by volume used to count as a soft drink...Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Password, by that definition beer is largely non-alcoholic.
Also, in the former case the police submitted, kneeling or running away. In the latter, they confronted the mob.1 -
Just wondering why the Government isn't doing itSandpit said:Yay, more people interested in bashing the government rather than getting schools open.
Another cabinet source said more preparations were needed to salvage schools: “There is zero chance of social distancing in schools. You either accept that or you go and find alternate locations, just as we did with the Nightingale hospitals. There seem to be zero plans for that.
“We have a majority of 80, you can hire whoever you want. You can spend any amount of money. You can hire management consultants, specialists, pay Amazon to come in and deliver tests. There are no excuses.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-is-tied-up-in-knots-over-the-coronavirus-7t6h9jl3z
Although we know the answer...0 -
The problem isnt this particular example which is trivial but the broader future.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
At the moment if a class of people are discriminated against they can band together, lobby, protest and educate to get redress.
In a generations time, people will be excluded from work or travel because of what an algorithm says. They are not allowed to see the algorithm, they dont know who wrote it, who else is impacted. Its like the Post Office scandal applied to everyone.2 -
Antony Beevor’s book “Berlin: The Downfall 1945” is an excellent look at that. If I remember it almost those exact words are used.eadric said:
Hah. Excellent storyLuckyguy1983 said:
A Polish friend's grandparents were occupied by the Germans and then the Russians. They much preferred the former. The Russians were so poorly edicated that they would do things like pulling out taps because they wanted to take the water with them. Not a great advertisement for Communism.eadric said:
Both countries won, is a fairly easy explanation. Their stories are heroic. They like to tell them.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
Tho I am not sure it is true, anyway. Germany and France are equally obsessed with the war, but for them the narrative is more depressing. Poland is neurotic about it. Italy schizo.
The Japanese constitution is still shaped by it, and their psyche is still moulded by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Apparently, as the Red Army advanced towards Berlin, Russian soldiers were amazed by what they found in German homes. German lives were obviously so much better and richer than Russian lives, they couldn't work out why Germans wanted to invade Russia in the first place0 -
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?1 -
Is it “the whole thing is much more complicated than can be stated in a couple of tweets”?Scott_xP said:
Just wondering why the Government isn't doing itSandpit said:Yay, more people interested in bashing the government rather than getting schools open.
Another cabinet source said more preparations were needed to salvage schools: “There is zero chance of social distancing in schools. You either accept that or you go and find alternate locations, just as we did with the Nightingale hospitals. There seem to be zero plans for that.
“We have a majority of 80, you can hire whoever you want. You can spend any amount of money. You can hire management consultants, specialists, pay Amazon to come in and deliver tests. There are no excuses.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/boris-johnson-is-tied-up-in-knots-over-the-coronavirus-7t6h9jl3z
Although we know the answer...1 -
We can't get schools open. 2m distancing means a best case scenario of 2 days a week schooling for the duration. 1m social distancing gets you 2.5 days. Either way, the government say it's unsafe for schools to fully reopen and then government shills complain that people are bashing the government for quoting their own published guidelinesSandpit said:
Yay, more people interested in bashing the government rather than getting schools open.Scott_xP said:0 -
That has been covered a few times: it can’t cope with any PM with more than one term. Look at 1964-70, Wilson’s first term.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
Edit; you are right though in that it shows it is a rubbish algorithm.0 -
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!2 -
He seems to be a perpetual candidate - does that pay well ?IanB2 said:
From his Wikipedia profile his career has been almost entirely in politics, the only ‘real’ work he appears to have done (apart from some self-admitted burglary in his youth) is as a bouncer at the Trocedero. A charity he founded ran into accusations of misspent funds and was shut down due to financial problems.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
He’s been on the London Assembly for five years, but no-one has found anything notable he has done there to add to the article. Under political views there are just a few fragmentary thoughts about links between childhood sexual activity and crime.
That’s it. DYOR.
I suspect he could have got a safe seat last year if he had wanted one.0 -
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
We are sleepwalking towards a future that looks increasingly like China's "Social Credit" system, whereby you can become an un-person with no right of appeal. Ask those imprisoned by the Post Office.3 -
First, one of the problems of Machine Learning is it creates a black box: it might work but no-one knows why. Same as if it fails. As an aside, the last couple of weeks saw first IBM and later Amazon and Microsoft pull out of AI facial recognition work over fears for its misuse in racial profiling. The big users of ML are in the financial markets, where for the most part they care more about making money than in understanding how.Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
Second, in automatically tailoring search results to individuals, which is generally a feature not a bug, one side effect is people on each side of a partisan divide see different news from their opponents. Each side can now have its own facts, not just its own opinions.
Third is that social media algorithms are highly tuned to change behaviour. This is because (and why!) social media firms are really advertising platforms. That is where they make their money. But what is effective in influencing us to visit one shop rather than another is now used by political parties to have us vote one way or another. Almost certainly the reason Boris suppressed the report into foreign interference in the election is that our own politicians use precisely the same techniques.4 -
The answer to that one is simple. They're listing Prime Ministers and only show PMs by the final term of office if they have more than one.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
See also: Wilson, MacDonald, Baldwin or in the USA President Cleveland.
All of them are treated identically the same.1 -
0
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Cheers. That seems right. And apologies to TSE. I didn't see his explanation until after I had repeated my point.Fysics_Teacher said:
That has been covered a few times: it can’t cope with any PM with more than one term. Look at 1964-70, Wilson’s first term.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
Edit; you are right though in that it shows it is a rubbish algorithm.0 -
So it is a rubbish algorithm if it can’t cope with something that basic.Philip_Thompson said:
The answer to that one is simple. They're listing Prime Ministers and only show PMs by the final term of office if they have more than one.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
See also: Wilson, MacDonald, Baldwin or in the USA President Cleveland.
All of them are treated identically the same.1 -
Like we did with hospitals...another_richard said:Because its possible to build double the number of schools in a few weeks.
Yeah.
Yeah.0 -
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There's a link to a whole article...Fysics_Teacher said:Is it “the whole thing is much more complicated than can be stated in a couple of tweets”?
0 -
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.0 -
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.4 -
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:0 -
I would guess that, to the extent that Dura is right, it is because the UK and Russia are the two countries where the tide of German expansion was finally stopped. All the other countries that Germany attempted to invade in continental Europe fell to them. But, primarily for reasons of geography and Hitler's own whims, the UK and Russia managed to turn back the invaders. These different experiences will obviously make the different countries in Europe view WW2 in different ways.eadric said:
Both countries won, is a fairly easy explanation. Their stories are heroic. They like to tell them.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
Tho I am not sure it is true, anyway. Germany and France are equally obsessed with the war, but for them the narrative is more depressing. Poland is neurotic about it. Italy schizo.
The Japanese constitution is still shaped by it, and their psyche is still moulded by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.2 -
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.1 -
So once more ministers get bashed when they follow advice ('they should have challenged it more/ignored it and done something differently') and if they don't follow advice they will get bashed even more.Scott_xP said:6 -
So that’s a yes.Scott_xP said:
There's a link to a whole article...Fysics_Teacher said:Is it “the whole thing is much more complicated than can be stated in a couple of tweets”?
1 -
Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'0 -
Much truth in that, but there are important differences too. The UK does not share their tendency towards totalitarianism, for example.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!2 -
So The Plot Against Churchill (or The Plot Against the UK cos it's the same thing reely) so far involves far right agents provocateurs, savvy Marxists and now big tech media. Any more suggestions for the paranoia pile?0
-
Well said.eadric said:
The second thing I learned is: Wow, British police are amazing, and we are incredibly lucky to have them,
They are calm, polite, brave, resolute, and effective without being punitive. They just stood there and took horrific and provocative abuse, missiles, shouting, from both sides, and they did it without demur, as they tried to keep both sides apart and save lives. A thankless task, but one they did superbly.
The boys in blue should take a bow. They are fucking heroes.
0 -
Do you think BLM would get very far trying to persuade the French to get rid of memorials to Napoleon, a far worse figure than anyone we have a statue to?Fishing said:
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.1 -
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?0 -
You missed out 5G Huwaei trained Corona bats....Theuniondivvie said:So The Plot Against Churchill (or The Plot Against the UK cos it's the same thing reely) so far involves far right agents provocateurs, savvy Marxists and now big tech media. Any more suggestions for the paranoia pile?
1 -
Of course, that must be why we are going to stay in the single market like both those countries... Wait, what?Fishing said:
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.0 -
Rumblings continue in the Tory party.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/12/honeymoon-boris-johnson-needs-find-old-fighting-spirit/
Patel is 22 for next leader.0 -
Keep Shaun Bailey as far as I am concerned.
He is a charismatic BAME candidate who speaks common sense and has experience dealing with problems like homelessness and is also hitting Khan on issues like knife crime.
The idea Javid would make the slightest difference to the Tory vote is absurd.
0 -
Lightweight is the term that first comes to mind whenever I hear him. IanB2 (I think) provides a précis of his career achievements to date down thread. Precis of the précis: sweet FA.kinabalu said:
Just speaking for myself - I find him intellectually lightweight and also shallow and shifty.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
Having said that - and given what a hopeless gig this would be for any Tory - I’d say he’s the ideal candidate for them. What you don’t want is a potentially stronger candidate losing any political capital they already have from the inevitably humiliating defeat. Let Shaun take this one for the team.0 -
He is an interesting example given he is one of the few people in history I know of who actually reintroduced slavery after it had previously been abolished.Fysics_Teacher said:
Do you think BLM would get very far trying to persuade the French to get rid of memorials to Napoleon, a far worse figure than anyone we have a statue to?Fishing said:
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.1 -
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.0 -
There's also the regulation aspect, and that it differs everywhere.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
Put one foot wrong slightly, and the Chinese, the Turks, the EU, the Belgians, or the French or some other random authority will have a fit.
We already have the insane censorship for Google Europe, because some Spaniard wanted the world to forget about his old conviction.1 -
A quick betting question related to TSE's post - I have a years old paper betting slip (don't ask - I was a noob and terrified of getting an account online) with Ladbrokes on George Osborne to win the '2020' London Mayoral at 200/1 buried somewhere. Does the postponement make that void and entitle me to my stake back or is it being settled next year?0
-
Interesting.eadric said:The Amazing Predicting Comedian is not wrong here, either. He tweeted this ten hours ago
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1271894307830710273?s=20
A few hours later, the BBC produced this headline
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53037767
And of course it could be that - perhaps as a hangover from WW2? - the BBC have an ingrained institutional bias against nazis. Scandal if so. They should be impartial. It says so in their charter.
But there is a possible alternative explanation.
If demo A has 500,000 people of whom 500 (0.1%) get violent, and demo B has 1,000 people of whom 50 (5%) get violent, which of the following true statements is more true?
(i) A is 10 times as violent as B?
(ii) B is 50 times as violent as A?
And which of the demos can more accurately be described as "largely peaceful"?
Offered as food for thought. Figures for illustration only. All arithmetical errors mine. Although of course there aren't any.0 -
Machine learning is not new. It has been running in the background for decades. ML techniques determine your insurance premium, the mortgage decision, the price of flights/hotels/travel fares; and even your hiring chances and salary.
An algo may discriminate on gender or race through covariates, one oft quoted example is a cv scanning algorithm that favoured science fiction fans for coding jobs). But you can catch that. An interesting debate is whether you should or not.
On it's 'black box' nature. There are techniques round that. you can back engineer the key drivers.0 -
Quite - although FWIW being damned either way should only be extra incentive for ministers to do precisely what they think is right, because there is no PR capital to be made by acting otherwise.kle4 said:
So once more ministers get bashed when they follow advice ('they should have challenged it more/ignored it and done something differently') and if they don't follow advice they will get bashed even more.Scott_xP said:
If - and it's a big if - this gossip is right and the advisers are thought to be ready to revolt if the Government acts against their wishes, but the Government also believes that acting against their wishes is the right thing to do, then they should set fire to the 2m rule and let the advisers go. It won't take very long to find out who was right.2 -
This Swiss/Norway option sounds fantastic. Why aren't we having it after December 31st?Fishing said:
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.3 -
The public were behind the government at the start. There are some who will find something to moan about regardless.kle4 said:
So once more ministers get bashed when they follow advice ('they should have challenged it more/ignored it and done something differently') and if they don't follow advice they will get bashed even more.Scott_xP said:
From a policy perspective the biggest failure was around care homes, especially the transfer of patients to them from hospitals.
From an implementation perspective the failure to focus on and deliver multiple things in parallel is very disappointing, as is a lack of imagination and pragmatism in problem solving, with decisions centralised, bureaucratic and overly tech driven.
But on managing the relationship with SAGE I think they have done pretty well. It sounds like govt accelerated lockdown advice from SAGE in March and are now accelerating lockdown release advice from them now - both are probably the correct calls. The blemish would be the failure of Cummings to resign.0 -
The market was voided, so you're entitled to your stake back.PastoralSign said:A quick betting question related to TSE's post - I have a years old paper betting slip (don't ask - I was a noob and terrified of getting an account online) with Ladbrokes on George Osborne to win the '2020' London Mayoral at 200/1 buried somewhere. Does the postponement make that void and entitle me to my stake back or is it being settled next year?
2 -
Seems the beating of suspected isolated Nazis by groups of 30+ mobs have been airbrushed from their reporting. Twitter is full of the footage, but it never happened. I have a sneaking suspicion the other way round and BBC would be all over the race crimes.eadric said:The Amazing Predicting Comedian is not wrong here, either. He tweeted this ten hours ago
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1271894307830710273?s=20
A few hours later, the BBC produced this headline
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-530377670 -
Interesting the elision between “on” and “next to”.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
The man seems an idiot, but I would be surprised if what he did was deliberate. I suspect he didn’t see the memorial.
If he was trying to urinate on it he had remarkably bad aim.1 -
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?2 -
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?0 -
Your point makes no sense. If a million people turned up on a march in London and 0.1% were violent it would be open warfare on the streets and there is no way it would be described as 'largely peaceful'. There was violence at both demos and both should be condemned equally. Everything else is just seeking to justify your own bias.kinabalu said:
Interesting.eadric said:The Amazing Predicting Comedian is not wrong here, either. He tweeted this ten hours ago
https://twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1271894307830710273?s=20
A few hours later, the BBC produced this headline
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53037767
And of course it could be that - perhaps as a hangover from WW2? - the BBC have an ingrained institutional bias against nazis. Scandal if so. They should be impartial. It says so in their charter.
But there is a possible alternative explanation.
If demo A has 500,000 people of whom 500 (0.1%) get violent, and demo B has 1,000 people of whom 50 (5%) get violent, which of the following true statements is more true?
(i) A is 10 times as violent as B?
(ii) B is 50 times as violent as A?
And which of the demos can more accurately be described as "largely peaceful"?
Offered as food for thought. Figures for illustration only. All arithmetical errors mine. Although of course there aren't any.0 -
Probably the programmer at Google used key:value stores keyed on the Prime Minister's name. If you imagine BecomesPM[Churchill] and LeavesOffice[Churchill] being updated moving forward through history, then this would result in only Churchill's (and Baldwin's and Wilson's) final terms being shown. This would work for American Presidents (except one) and Google is an American company.Fysics_Teacher said:
So it is a rubbish algorithm if it can’t cope with something that basic.Philip_Thompson said:
The answer to that one is simple. They're listing Prime Ministers and only show PMs by the final term of office if they have more than one.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
See also: Wilson, MacDonald, Baldwin or in the USA President Cleveland.
All of them are treated identically the same.0 -
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.0 -
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
0 -
You say that - and yes it's probably right - but imo Khan is far from a political giant and is beatable if the Cons could find a really strong candidate. Being in any sense a Conservative is a no no, therefore if I were them I would be looking for a charismatic independent to run primarily as themselves with the Con badge just peeping out from under the lapel very occasionally and only in safe spaces.ThomasNashe said:
Lightweight is the term that first comes to mind whenever I hear him. IanB2 (I think) provides a précis of his career achievements to date down thread. Precis of the précis: sweet FA.kinabalu said:
Just speaking for myself - I find him intellectually lightweight and also shallow and shifty.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
Having said that - and given what a hopeless gig this would be for any Tory - I’d say he’s the ideal candidate for them. What you don’t want is a potentially stronger candidate losing any political capital they already have from the inevitably humiliating defeat. Let Shaun take this one for the team.0 -
Ladbrokes shops are due to reopen tomorrow, at least in England. I'd be inclined to arrange things with Ladbrokes HQ first so the shop knows what to do with the slip and you do not spend hours while the shop staff scratch their metaphorical heads.TheScreamingEagles said:
The market was voided, so you're entitled to your stake back.PastoralSign said:A quick betting question related to TSE's post - I have a years old paper betting slip (don't ask - I was a noob and terrified of getting an account online) with Ladbrokes on George Osborne to win the '2020' London Mayoral at 200/1 buried somewhere. Does the postponement make that void and entitle me to my stake back or is it being settled next year?
0 -
That’s a bizarre statement, so teachers in private schools teaching classes of 15 should earn less than state teachers with classes of 30? The comments about trying to produce a system where primary schools can operate at 15/class are valid, many retired teachers would go back if the class sizes were cut and they could actually teach. It just needs vision and determination.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?0 -
Khan is a good enough political operator to see off any challenger in London.kinabalu said:
You say that - and yes it's probably right - but imo Khan is far from a political giant and is beatable if the Cons could find a really strong candidate. Being in any sense a Conservative is a no no, therefore if I were them I would be looking for a charismatic independent to run primarily as themselves with the Con badge just peeping out from under the lapel very occasionally and only in safe spaces.ThomasNashe said:
Lightweight is the term that first comes to mind whenever I hear him. IanB2 (I think) provides a précis of his career achievements to date down thread. Precis of the précis: sweet FA.kinabalu said:
Just speaking for myself - I find him intellectually lightweight and also shallow and shifty.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
Having said that - and given what a hopeless gig this would be for any Tory - I’d say he’s the ideal candidate for them. What you don’t want is a potentially stronger candidate losing any political capital they already have from the inevitably humiliating defeat. Let Shaun take this one for the team.1 -
Rory Stewart is still available, I hear?kinabalu said:
You say that - and yes it's probably right - but imo Khan is far from a political giant and is beatable if the Cons could find a really strong candidate. Being in any sense a Conservative is a no no, therefore if I were them I would be looking for a charismatic independent to run primarily as themselves with the Con badge just peeping out from under the lapel very occasionally and only in safe spaces.ThomasNashe said:
Lightweight is the term that first comes to mind whenever I hear him. IanB2 (I think) provides a précis of his career achievements to date down thread. Precis of the précis: sweet FA.kinabalu said:
Just speaking for myself - I find him intellectually lightweight and also shallow and shifty.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
Having said that - and given what a hopeless gig this would be for any Tory - I’d say he’s the ideal candidate for them. What you don’t want is a potentially stronger candidate losing any political capital they already have from the inevitably humiliating defeat. Let Shaun take this one for the team.1 -
Indeed, I would prefer a Labour government to a Tory government giving Scotland independence.StuartDickson said:
Out of the mouth of bairns.BluestBlue said:
Neither of them had 4 years (or 4.5 years if we go for lucky December again) to turn things around either. Neither of them had already won a landslide majority in their own right.TheScreamingEagles said:
You do realise the last few times a PM has managed to trash their reputation like this (Gordon Brown, the election that never was, and Theresa May 2017, there's been no way back for the PM.)BluestBlue said:
Devastated. It's going to kill us in the General Election next week...TheScreamingEagles said:
Chris Curtis of YouGov wroteCarlottaVance said:
That's unusual - the sitting PM usually has an advantage over the LotO.BluestBlue said:
Do you even bother to read this bollocks before reposting it? Boris and Starmer's scores are exactly the same.Scott_xP said:
This is rare.
Of the 237 occasions we have run this question over the past decade, this has just happened three times - when Corbyn caught May in the months following the 2017 election.
Since David Cameron became PM the Tory PM has led this metric for a decade about from a couple of months after the 2017 election.
So out of the last 121 months, the Tory PM has led this metric for 119 months.
No wonder BluestBlue is upset.
But I hear you, we need a plan just in case things don't work out. So if the Tories are 10 points underwater in late 2023, we might consider giving the leadership to someone more popular (Sunak, etc). If they're 20+ points underwater, we switch to Sunak vel sim. AND give Scotland immediate independence so that their MPs disappear and our effective majority increases by 40.
It always pays to think ahead...
HYUFD will have a fit.
No Tory Government will ever give Scotland independence, we were elected on respecting the 'once in a generation' 2014 vote.
Not that it would make much difference anyway, only in 1964 and February 1974 would the Tories have won most seats rather than Labour had Scotland been excluded0 -
See my post at 8.58OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:0 -
Rory Stewart?kinabalu said:
You say that - and yes it's probably right - but imo Khan is far from a political giant and is beatable if the Cons could find a really strong candidate. Being in any sense a Conservative is a no no, therefore if I were them I would be looking for a charismatic independent to run primarily as themselves with the Con badge just peeping out from under the lapel very occasionally and only in safe spaces.ThomasNashe said:
Lightweight is the term that first comes to mind whenever I hear him. IanB2 (I think) provides a précis of his career achievements to date down thread. Precis of the précis: sweet FA.kinabalu said:
Just speaking for myself - I find him intellectually lightweight and also shallow and shifty.Andy_JS said:Why is Shaun Bailey regarded as ineffective by some?
Having said that - and given what a hopeless gig this would be for any Tory - I’d say he’s the ideal candidate for them. What you don’t want is a potentially stronger candidate losing any political capital they already have from the inevitably humiliating defeat. Let Shaun take this one for the team.0 -
There's also the space limitation issue, they've as a design only given space for one single line of text. That is a design flaw which would require a redesign.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Probably the programmer at Google used key:value stores keyed on the Prime Minister's name. If you imagine BecomesPM[Churchill] and LeavesOffice[Churchill] being updated moving forward through history, then this would result in only Churchill's (and Baldwin's and Wilson's) final terms being shown. This would work for American Presidents (except one) and Google is an American company.Fysics_Teacher said:
So it is a rubbish algorithm if it can’t cope with something that basic.Philip_Thompson said:
The answer to that one is simple. They're listing Prime Ministers and only show PMs by the final term of office if they have more than one.Richard_Tyndall said:
Except the algorithm defence only explains the missing picture, not the fact that according to that google set there was no PM between 1940 and 1945. Why would the algorithm treat the two PM terms differently?Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:
Algorithms making controversial and unaccountable decisions is one of the biggest threats to humanity, liberty and democracy. Even in the medium term, say next 25-50 years, far more so than a few scuffles between extremists which are admittedly an immediate problem.LostPassword said:
My guess is that Hitler would previously have triggered the algorithm, so they've already had to adjust it manually for German Chancellors - hence why the list is in a different format.Richard_Tyndall said:
That sounds like a good explanation. I saw this myself on my news feed this morning and couldn't believe Google would be so dumb. Oversensitive algorithms seems a reasonable answer. The question does arise as to why Churchill triggers the algorithm but Hitler does not.LostPassword said:
That's interesting.Casino_Royale said:Google has censored Churchill.
Try it yourself.
I tried the same for US Presidents, French Presidents and Australian Prime Ministers - no gaps. If you try German Chancellors you don't get a list in the same format (but you do get a photo of the bad guy).
My guess is that an algorithm has overreacted. I expect they'll fix it as soon as purple start complaining and we'll never know exactly why.
It does also reemphasise the point of not trusting the internet for anything - even the most well established sources.
But you'll never get Google to talk about the details of this, and they remain almost completely unaccountable.
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
See also: Wilson, MacDonald, Baldwin or in the USA President Cleveland.
All of them are treated identically the same.1 -
Or to lower standards! Ducks and runs away.....Fysics_Teacher said:
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.0 -
It's not about Churchill's image, it's about tech company accountability.Philip_Thompson said:
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:LostPassword said:Richard_Tyndall said:LostPassword said:Casino_Royale said:
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?
Google have proven themselves to be able to both upload and remove content worldwide within seconds, but somehow it takes days to restore something and the world just has to live with that?
If one of my customers reported such an error to me it would be resolved instantly. That Google's replication and shadow-DNS systems apparently take days - by design - is still Google's problem, and Google should be held accountable for it.
Google and their employees are trying their best to make out that their own infrastructure and algorithms somehow aren't their responsibility.1 -
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.0 -
Tories are always keen on market forces until it kicks them in the arse, then the story mysteriously changes...Fysics_Teacher said:
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.1 -
One of the things that used to sadden me when commuting through Liverpool Street was the misuse of the Kinderstransport memorial to hold drinks cartons and other rubbish, though if you do not know what the memorial is and have not read the plaque to find out, it is more likely to be thoughtlessness rather than political comment.Fysics_Teacher said:
Interesting the elision between “on” and “next to”.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
The man seems an idiot, but I would be surprised if what he did was deliberate. I suspect he didn’t see the memorial.
If he was trying to urinate on it he had remarkably bad aim.1 -
https://www.rtve.es/alacarta/videos/especiales-informativos/toda-espana-estara-fase-3-este-lunes-menos-madrid-barcelona-lleida-parte-castilla-leon/5595713/
Anything like this in the UK for beach management?0 -
Bolded emphasis: Have they? When?Sandpit said:
It's not about Churchill's image, it's about tech company accountability.Philip_Thompson said:
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:LostPassword said:Richard_Tyndall said:LostPassword said:Casino_Royale said:
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?
Google have proven themselves to be able to both upload and remove content worldwide within seconds, but somehow it takes days to restore something and the world just has to live with that?
If one of my customers reported such an error to me it would be resolved instantly. That Google's replication and shadow-DNS systems apparently take days - by design - is still Google's problem, and Google should be held accountable for it.
Google and their employees are trying their best to make out that their own infrastructure and algorithms somehow aren't their responsibility.
I've never known them to be able to do that. As far as I know that's not the way they work.
Google are a billion dollar industry precisely because they do everything automated not manually. We can hold Google accountable by using a better search engine if there is one - I'm curious if you can name one that's better.
Google are the best precisely because everything is automated, not despite it.0 -
another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.0 -
There's likely to significantly more unemployed, in particular among the young middle classes, so supply and demand could well change.Fysics_Teacher said:
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.
The inconvenient reality is that the country has already been living beyond its means for decades.
And if the means are reduced ...0 -
I'm going to make myself unpopular.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
If that is all he did I do not view it as an offence of enormous seriousness in the grand scheme of things.
And if it leads to calls for "lock up and throw away in the key!" - just based on that image and nothing else - I will not be joining in.1 -
If there's a condition called tweeter's finger, wee Dan has definitely got it, he's gone into overdrive the last few days.
All the police's fault, innit.
https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1272095379086028801?s=200 -
Probably neither and that the real difficulty is that it is the weekend and all their American staff are still in bed anyway because of time zones. Restoring the image is one thing; the bug that hides PMs' first terms, and thus Churchill's critical wartime premiership, might take more testing if Google needs to check its effect on every other country's former leaders.eadric said:
What if ChurchillimageonGooglegate is neither cock-up nor conspiracy?Sandpit said:
It's not about Churchill's image, it's about tech company accountability.Philip_Thompson said:
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:LostPassword said:Richard_Tyndall said:LostPassword said:Casino_Royale said:
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?
Google have proven themselves to be able to both upload and remove content worldwide within seconds, but somehow it takes days to restore something and the world just has to live with that?
If one of my customers reported such an error to me it would be resolved instantly. That Google's replication and shadow-DNS systems apparently take days - by design - is still Google's problem, and Google should be held accountable for it.
Google and their employees are trying their best to make out that their own infrastructure and algorithms somehow aren't their responsibility.
What if it is just one rogue programmer, making a political statement? In today's heated circumstances, that seems quite feasible.The timing is quite uncanny.0 -
They mostly do.nichomar said:
That’s a bizarre statement, so teachers in private schools teaching classes of 15 should earn less than state teachers with classes of 30?another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?0 -
Teaching two classes with half the pupils in each ?nichomar said:another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
That's a big drop in productivity.0 -
Can't be, we've been told for years that teachers are all shit anyway.noneoftheabove said:
Or to lower standards! Ducks and runs away.....Fysics_Teacher said:
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.0 -
I can see a picture of Churchill on the band of UK PMs on Google, although it disappears if I click on it.
What annoys me more about the ribbon is that there are gaps in the chronology because they only show Wilson, Churchill and Baldwin once a each.0 -
Forthright take (from US comedian Andrew Shultz) on the statues issue. Much better said than almost anyone else on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LMRCX1iXng1 -
I've noticed that you instinctively feel that it's the comfortable white collar middle classes rather than the authentically wealthy who are the main culprits in the exploitation of the working class in this country. I find this odd.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.0 -
Might end up with dramatically increased standards and a far better platform for secondary education thus tackling some of the deep seated society problems resulting from failures in education. Therefore worth every penny.another_richard said:
Teaching two classes with half the pupils in each ?nichomar said:another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
That's a big drop in productivity.2 -
Id imagine the teaching industry wouldnt like it but if we have 2m unemployed, would it be a terrible use if we say took 50k-200k of them as temporary teachers whilst social distancing is required?another_richard said:
There's likely to significantly more unemployed, in particular among the young middle classes, so supply and demand could well change.Fysics_Teacher said:
You are right: they will need to pay more.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
I’m not saying that just because I’m a teacher, but simple supply and demand. Recruiting is pretty difficult now and if you want lots more teachers the only way to get them will be to pay us more.
The inconvenient reality is that the country has already been living beyond its means for decades.
And if the means are reduced ...
Its obviously not ideal, creates problems but so does no schooling at all.2 -
And then there is the issue of elearning.
If increasing amounts of education is done by that then the source doesn't need to be located in this country.
I'd be surprised if other countries didn't offer such courses at a more competitive cost.
Learn your maths from teachers in South Korea and your history from teachers in Barbados.0 -
I agree. I wonder whether he even aware he was standing next to it. And the irony at a demonstration to supposedly protect statues.kinabalu said:
I'm going to make myself unpopular.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
If that is all he did I do not view it as an offence of enormous seriousness in the grand scheme of things.
And if it leads to calls for "lock up and throw away in the key!" - just based on that image and nothing else - I will not be joining in.
It looks really bad, but was it just a case of someone relieving himself after too many beers and a long day fighting the police. The latter being what we should consider a serious offence (if he took part).1 -
Under Communism, a Polish general was reviewing his soldiers. He stopped in front of one of them.Luckyguy1983 said:
A Polish friend's grandparents were occupied by the Germans and then the Russians. They much preferred the former. The Russians were so poorly edicated that they would do things like pulling out taps because they wanted to take the water with them. Not a great advertisement for Communism.eadric said:
Both countries won, is a fairly easy explanation. Their stories are heroic. They like to tell them.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
Tho I am not sure it is true, anyway. Germany and France are equally obsessed with the war, but for them the narrative is more depressing. Poland is neurotic about it. Italy schizo.
The Japanese constitution is still shaped by it, and their psyche is still moulded by Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
'Soldier!' he barked. 'Imagine you are attacked at the same time by a German and a Russian. Who do you kill first?'
Without hesitation, the soldier replied, 'The German, sir.'
'What is your reasoning?' asked the General.
'Well sir, my family owned a small shop. And my father taught me that you must always finish business before starting pleasure.'0 -
I think we will be (in essence) remaining in the single market. But I know you disagree.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Of course, that must be why we are going to stay in the single market like both those countries... Wait, what?Fishing said:
No we are more like Switzerland or Norway, seeking to play a part in Europe without being subsumed into a half-baked superstate.OnlyLivingBoy said:
England has a lot in common with Russia, and indeed Turkey. Removed from the European mainstream, increasingly in thrall to nostalgic nationalism, can't admit to crimes committed during its imperial era, leader playing on nationalist grievances, educated middle class increasingly isolated and accused of lacking sufficient patriotism.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
NA BERLIN!!!!
As for admitting the crimes of our Imperial era, our record glows in comparison to France's.0 -
He had a bladder full of lager and he thought he could piss wherever he liked. There is no way he did it deliberately by the memorial to PC Palmer, but he certainly did it openly in the street and did not give it a second thought. It's a minor infraction, but it is perfect in its symbolism. He was there to protect traditional British values.Fysics_Teacher said:
Interesting the elision between “on” and “next to”.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
The man seems an idiot, but I would be surprised if what he did was deliberate. I suspect he didn’t see the memorial.
If he was trying to urinate on it he had remarkably bad aim.
1 -
It seems to me the conservatives are pretty much carried along by the party's sub continent massive right now....Sunak/Patel/Sharma/Javed/Braverman
The 'white right' looks exhausted physically and intellectually.0 -
Do you not understand the meaning of the word “could”?Fishing said:
Didn't Imperial tell the Guardian that up to 200m people could die from bird flu in 2005, when only a couple of hundred did. And that 50k people could die from BSE when only a couple of hundred did.DecrepiterJohnL said:
Imperial? Anyway what surprised me was that once the code quality issues were known, HMG did not immediately commission several firms to clean up the code (not rewrite it in another language, which is most programmers' response to any request in my experience).rottenborough said:https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8417915/DAN-HODGES-Professor-Lockdown-tried-dropping-dirty-bomb-Boris-blew-up.html
I do hope one conclusion of the public inquiry is that a new model of pandemic growth is built from scratch with no one from the UCL team anywhere near the work.
The question is, why does anybody still listen to those publicity-seeking clowns?2 -
If that's what's actually done. We don't know yet how the other half are going to be taught. Will they be accessing lessons streamed online, for instance?another_richard said:
Teaching two classes with half the pupils in each ?nichomar said:another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
That's a big drop in productivity.
But I agree with @Fysics_Teacher, teachers' salaries in key subjects are already at more or less the bottom of what we can hope for to recruit. Why would you become a physics teacher for less than £30,000 a year when you can earn treble that in industry or finance? Even the pension doesn't really make up for it.1 -
Those who actually were in the war always seemed to be very reluctant to celebrate or discuss it. Those born afterwards who missed out on the "excitement" (aka the horror of war) seem to be the ones for whom it is Patriotism-Max. A childhood of war movies and commando comics probably did not help either.Dura_Ace said:
The English obsession with WW2 is truly baffling to me. The only other country that comes close in this regard in my experience is Russia.Foxy said:
Yes, I think there is an element of kicking against Britain's maudlin obsession with poppyism.Dura_Ace said:People aren't protesting against Churchill because of he was bros with Mussolini, or that he gassed Kurds or had the army shoot Welsh miners it's because he's a conspicuous symbol of the British establishment and what Mao called, The Four Olds. It's just the vibe rather than anything he did in particular.
1 -
I very much doubt thats an unpopular view, prison should not be for people urinating in the street.kinabalu said:
I'm going to make myself unpopular.OldKingCole said:Beeb reports that 'A man has been arrested on suspicion of urinating on the Westminster memorial dedicated to PC Keith Palmer.'
I'll bet he wishes he'd kept it in his trousers!
Edit. Apparently he had the good grace to 'present himself at a police station'
If that is all he did I do not view it as an offence of enormous seriousness in the grand scheme of things.
And if it leads to calls for "lock up and throw away in the key!" - just based on that image and nothing else - I will not be joining in.1 -
I was thinking of user-uploaded content to Google platforms such as Youtube, and their responses to court orders such as those from the EU about the 'right to be forgotten' legislation.Philip_Thompson said:
Bolded emphasis: Have they? When?Sandpit said:
It's not about Churchill's image, it's about tech company accountability.Philip_Thompson said:
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:LostPassword said:Richard_Tyndall said:LostPassword said:Casino_Royale said:
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?
Google have proven themselves to be able to both upload and remove content worldwide within seconds, but somehow it takes days to restore something and the world just has to live with that?
If one of my customers reported such an error to me it would be resolved instantly. That Google's replication and shadow-DNS systems apparently take days - by design - is still Google's problem, and Google should be held accountable for it.
Google and their employees are trying their best to make out that their own infrastructure and algorithms somehow aren't their responsibility.
I've never known them to be able to do that. As far as I know that's not the way they work.
Google are a billion dollar industry precisely because they do everything automated not manually. We can hold Google accountable by using a better search engine if there is one - I'm curious if you can name one that's better.
Google are the best precisely because everything is automated, not despite it.
Again, if Google says these things take days to resolve, that is the result of Google's infrastructure and algorithms, for which they should be held accountable. They can't hide, and shouldn't be allowed to hide, behind "automation" as excuses for mistakes.
A company that makes a billion dollars a week in profits should be able to have a 24/7 UK moderation team that can fix issues like Churchill's picture, even on a Sunday morning. That they clearly can't is entirely their company's problem.0 -
Close down the private schools, they are clearly unproductive.another_richard said:
Teaching two classes with half the pupils in each ?nichomar said:another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
That's a big drop in productivity.0 -
Sadiq Khan is an uninspiring mayor. I don't think he has done anything much to deserve a second term, but neither has he done anything particularly catastrophic. He doesn't have the power to. My guess is that he will win whoever the Tories put up against him because right now London does not like the Conservative party very much.2
-
"Clenched Fist" icon -OnlyLivingBoy said:
Close down the private schools, they are clearly unproductive.another_richard said:
Teaching two classes with half the pupils in each ?nichomar said:another_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
They would still be doing the same hours teaching two different classes acweekanother_richard said:
In which case either teachers will have the same number of pupils for the same period of time or the same number of pupils for a reduced period of time.Richard_Tyndall said:
But as you well know we are not going to end up with more teachers - at least not to the levels needed.another_richard said:
If we end up with more teachers each teaching fewer pupils then current pay rates cannot be justified.Richard_Tyndall said:
Serious question in spite of the troll like statement.another_richard said:
If its not possible to return to normal then the whole education system will need reviewing.OnlyLivingBoy said:
But they don't even appear to be trying. They could be commandeering other buildings, planning temporary structures on public land, portacabins in school grounds, recruiting extra teachers and TAs. But there don't seem to have been any efforts made. What is the plan? Are they simply assuming that it will be possible to go back as usual in September? This should be their number one priority right now. It's incredible to me that they seem to have made no effort.another_richard said:
That includes pay cuts for teachers.
Why would you cut pay when in all likelihood you are going to be increasing the workload?
If its the latter then current pay rates cannot be justified.
The bottom line is that people cannot do less work for the same pay.
Especially if it comes at a cost, in this case parental time, to others.
This might become an unfortunate reality in many jobs.
That's a big drop in productivity.
0 -
If you listen to any of the big YouTubers, these days it is a constant battle against the manual and bots that manage the content and people using DMCA claims against their videos. And if you do trigger something, it can be days, weeks, if ever, that issues get resolved.Sandpit said:
I was thinking of user-uploaded content to Google platforms such as Youtube, and their responses to court orders such as those from the EU about the 'right to be forgotten' legislation.Philip_Thompson said:
Bolded emphasis: Have they? When?Sandpit said:
It's not about Churchill's image, it's about tech company accountability.Philip_Thompson said:
The image is missing because it is missing, it will be back in a few hours to days time when the update resolves itself. As happens with all updates. There is no grand conspiracy and if you want to see an image of Churchill you easily can.Sandpit said:
The Churchill image is still missing (from a different computer with a different browser and a different IP address). They haven't come close to sorting out the complaint.Philip_Thompson said:
I disagree. Firstly they've already sorted out the complaint - they've already given the answer as to what has happened.Sandpit said:
What I'm saying is that the big tech companies act as if the 'algorithm' is something not in their control, and for which they should not be held accountable.Philip_Thompson said:
I normally agree with you, but surely the algorithm absolutely can be the explanation?Sandpit said:
ˆˆˆTHIS.noneoftheabove said:LostPassword said:Richard_Tyndall said:LostPassword said:Casino_Royale said:
Tech CEO's should never be allowed to hide behind algorithms, they need to explain themselves in public and be held accountable for the actions of their organisations.
If the explanation is that images go missing during updates sometimes and this is all automated and what has happened here then what more of an explanation do you expect than that?
They've said too they'll look into it. What more can be said at this time realistically?
A company who last year made $89bn income and $47bn EBITDA from $161bn turnover, should be able to employ enough people to sort out these complaints within seconds rather than days. The point is that they don't want to be accountable, and no-one is yet really trying to make them so. https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/goog/financials
Secondly in order for the technology to work it takes days for their systems to update. The system isn't live in the way people imagine and updates can take days to filter through to all servers.
I've worked with Google in a business setting in the past, one thing they're always clear about is that updates take days to get through to all servers, even if you pay them to update something. I don't think their technology could work any other way.
That these things take days is entirely their problem. They don't want people to think it's their problem, in fact they go out of their way to say it's not their problem and due to some infrastructure or algorithm - but it's very much their problem.
What's the big deal?
Google have proven themselves to be able to both upload and remove content worldwide within seconds, but somehow it takes days to restore something and the world just has to live with that?
If one of my customers reported such an error to me it would be resolved instantly. That Google's replication and shadow-DNS systems apparently take days - by design - is still Google's problem, and Google should be held accountable for it.
Google and their employees are trying their best to make out that their own infrastructure and algorithms somehow aren't their responsibility.
I've never known them to be able to do that. As far as I know that's not the way they work.
Google are a billion dollar industry precisely because they do everything automated not manually. We can hold Google accountable by using a better search engine if there is one - I'm curious if you can name one that's better.
Google are the best precisely because everything is automated, not despite it.
Again, if Google says these things take days to resolve, that is the result of Google's infrastructure and algorithms, for which they should be held accountable. They can't hide, and shouldn't be allowed to hide, behind "automation" as excuses for mistakes.
A company that makes a billion dollars a week in profits should be able to have a 24/7 UK moderation team that can fix issues like Churchill's picture. That they clearly can't is entirely their company's problem.
And we aren't talking about people with a few views, this effects people with billions of views.
A few months ago, one of the major podcasters got the ban hammer for using racist language, except he didn't. The auto transcription bot decided he said the n word and inserted it into the subtitles, which triggered the censorship bot to ban him. It took days to sort out.
We are at a stage now were the YouTubers who do news now have to avoid using certain terms, because the reviewers often don't get the context. For a week, anybody using coronavirus got demonetized, because so many conspiracy theory videos on the subject. And history YouTubers have awful trouble if they want to talk about the Nazis, despite their whole channel being history related.1
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