Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Out as PM? When exactly? We might as well put a date on this certainty, if only for the sake of verifiability after the fact.
I have backed him at all prices to be out by Sep 2021. These things always take longer to play out than we are used to in a 24-hr news cycle world.
Look at Theresa. Obvious from the get go that she was hopeless and that she would be found out but took some time for it to transpire.
Interesting. What odds out of curiosity?
I hope to be at Tory Conference in 2021 with Boris still as PM, which would be past your cut off - it would be my first one post-Cameron.
Also, finally, I will not be renewing my party membership next month which I'm sure will thrill the likes of you and some other supposed Tories on here.
I can't be a member of a party which lies and dissembles so much. The review of all fines related to travelling for childcare issues was just beyond insulting.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Yes, that's...strange. Surrey is one of the 11 pilot areas for track and trace. Borough councils are supposed to help, and we have just been contacted. We're supposed to be operational the day after tomorrow?? This is like that "Go back to work tomorrow morning" thing.
BoZo did rather unwisely commit to Track and Trace being in place and "world leading" by Monday.
Yep. Seems set up to fail once again. Starmer is beginning to grow on me a little. He is clever enough to not interrupt an enemy making a mistake. At present that means keeping fairly quiet and letting the Tories stew.
Tis a pity though. Track and Trace could have been quite a step forward if Isolation wasn't a laughing stock.
Away from Dumbings for a moment and the Remdesivir story on the Guardian and Times front pages looks promising.
A mitigation in recovery time will make a large difference I should think?
As mentioned earlier and as @Richard_Nabavi has also noted, if Dom goes we are if anything in a worse position as at least he has a plan. Boris has nothing.
What % of the public are convinced that Bob Smith should resign as Chancellor of the Exchequer?
Bet you it would be more than 20% if you polled it
People aren't generally interested in politics.
But the government has forced us all (NB: not all) to be at home so it's like silly season on steroids.
Everyone is sitting by the radio or television listening to it all and hence have a view. Because it is the only thing that is happening right now.
No sport, no soaps, no anything. Except Dom.
So time to move the story on. People will follow it like a soap opera, but it will move on.
Only one way to move it on as i have been saying since Saturday
Indeed.
Get real news.
Nothing will drown out the anger except a sacking.
I am not calling for this however as Cineworld have given me one of their gigantic sacks of popcorn
Next week kids are going back to school, markets are reopening and soon shops are reopening.
If Boris is smart tomorrow he should announce that in line with outdoor markets meeting friends and family outdoors (subject to social distancing) is now permitted in gardens etc as well as in parks.
Its time to smartly unwind the lockdown bit by bit and if muppets want to talk about 'man drives car for children' instead of real news let them.
So hold on, 30% of Leavers have gone to Labour. What percentage did Labour get in 2019?
Starmer already said Brexit is over and he will not seek to rejoin the EU. Beyond hammering that home for the next five years, how can he win on this issue?
If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
"There are no American tanks in Baghdad!" - ComicalestBlue
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Out as PM? When exactly? We might as well put a date on this certainty, if only for the sake of verifiability after the fact.
As I have been saying for weeks: early 2021
His ego is big enough to demand that he does SOMETHING. That will be final deliverance of Brexit on December 31
He has the perfect excuse to go with some grace: ill health from covid (see how he already hints at it, mentioning his eye sight; he might even be right)
After that, government will just be a gruelling slog of cuts and tax hikes. Not what he envisaged. He has a pretty young wife. His memoir will make him millions, Exeunt Boris.
Blimey, thats bold. Fair dos for nailing your colours to the mast.
Fancy a PB donation spread-wager, £1 a week? Maybe March 31st 2021 as the break even point? E.G. If he ceases to be PM 8 weeks before that, I'll chuck £8 into the PB kitty. If its 8 weeks after, you chuck £8 in, etc etc
Betting just makes my eyes glaze over. What's the most I could lose or win? I mean if Boris stayed ten years that's £500 I lose, or something?
Something like that - but its not going to be you or I winning either way - PB is the winner!
Fuck that then. I've already donated. Life is hard.
Me too - but I thought it might be a lark. Oh well, no probs.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Out as PM? When exactly? We might as well put a date on this certainty, if only for the sake of verifiability after the fact.
I have backed him at all prices to be out by Sep 2021. These things always take longer to play out than we are used to in a 24-hr news cycle world.
Look at Theresa. Obvious from the get go that she was hopeless and that she would be found out but took some time for it to transpire.
Interesting. What odds out of curiosity?
I hope to be at Tory Conference in 2021 with Boris still as PM, which would be past your cut off - it would be my first one post-Cameron.
Also, finally, I will not be renewing my party membership next month which I'm sure will thrill the likes of you and some other supposed Tories on here.
I can't be a member of a party which lies and dissembles so much. The review of all fines related to travelling for childcare issues was just beyond insulting.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
It's not about breaking lockdown. It's about breaking quarantine. It is driving across the country with disease putting health care workers and the population of the NE in danger of infection. When you were responsible for Stay Home Save Lives Protect the NHS. And you ignored all three of those. And why? Cos you couldn't be arsed looking after your sick wife and your child in your million pound plus property. And then you have the gall to be all arsey because folk don't appreciate your oh so clever excuse to why it is all OK. The public aren't idiots. And they don't lack compassion. But they recognise only too clearly that at least a couple of people at the very top of government do. It is about morality and common decency at a time of extreme shared anxiety and stress.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Out as PM? When exactly? We might as well put a date on this certainty, if only for the sake of verifiability after the fact.
I have backed him at all prices to be out by Sep 2021. These things always take longer to play out than we are used to in a 24-hr news cycle world.
Look at Theresa. Obvious from the get go that she was hopeless and that she would be found out but took some time for it to transpire.
Interesting. What odds out of curiosity?
I hope to be at Tory Conference in 2021 with Boris still as PM, which would be past your cut off - it would be my first one post-Cameron.
Also, finally, I will not be renewing my party membership next month which I'm sure will thrill the likes of you and some other supposed Tories on here.
I can't be a member of a party which lies and dissembles so much. The review of all fines related to travelling for childcare issues was just beyond insulting.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Yes, that's...strange. Surrey is one of the 11 pilot areas for track and trace. Borough councils are supposed to help, and we have just been contacted. We're supposed to be operational the day after tomorrow?? This is like that "Go back to work tomorrow morning" thing.
BoZo did rather unwisely commit to Track and Trace being in place and "world leading" by Monday.
Yep. Seems set up to fail once again. Starmer is beginning to grow on me a little. He is clever enough to not interrupt an enemy making a mistake. At present that means keeping fairly quiet and letting the Tories stew.
Tis a pity though. Track and Trace could have been quite a step forward if Isolation wasn't a laughing stock.
Away from Dumbings for a moment and the Remdesivir story on the Guardian and Times front pages looks promising.
A mitigation in recovery time will make a large difference I should think?
More real news that got missed by the braying mob.
9 points in a week but nothing to see here say PB Tories
Tories still ahead and main movement from the LDs and Greens to Labour since 2019 it seems but if the lead slips further than it will be of greater concern
Do you think Cummings should go btw?
Don't think I've seen your take.
I said he should go this afternoon
Ah ok thanks. Yes I thought you'd be on the right side of history on this one. It seems to be just the zealots.
Anneliese Dodds btw - a Gordon Brown in a skirt in the making?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
They weren't MPs who voted for the rules to become law of the land?
How did they vote when the Commons made the law of the land?
Let's stop talking about Cummings and talk about how to lift the lockdown instead.
Supporters of the lockdown want to talk about Cummings/Boris going, but not for them to actually go now. Why? They know that there are much bigger battles ahead once we reach the late summer of 2020. The virus will be virtually extinct in the UK. The vaccine trials currently under way cannot be completed while there is no community transmission of COVID, unless this is happening in other countries or volunteers are injected with the virus. Social distancing will make a return to normal life completely impossible. The economy will be seriously deteriorating. There will be calls to reduce social distancing to roll back the shutdown. Supporters of the restrictions will say that to reduce social distancing would cause the R number to go above 1 so this is out of the question. Why would they use up all of their political capital now simply to remove Dominic Cummings?
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Out as PM? When exactly? We might as well put a date on this certainty, if only for the sake of verifiability after the fact.
I have backed him at all prices to be out by Sep 2021. These things always take longer to play out than we are used to in a 24-hr news cycle world.
Look at Theresa. Obvious from the get go that she was hopeless and that she would be found out but took some time for it to transpire.
Interesting. What odds out of curiosity?
I hope to be at Tory Conference in 2021 with Boris still as PM, which would be past your cut off - it would be my first one post-Cameron.
Also, finally, I will not be renewing my party membership next month which I'm sure will thrill the likes of you and some other supposed Tories on here.
I can't be a member of a party which lies and dissembles so much. The review of all fines related to travelling for childcare issues was just beyond insulting.
Incidentally, I'd be fascinated to know if there actually have been any fines issued for genuine childcare issues...
Kind of you to say.
And no I've no idea but just to announce it to me was just mind boggling. And wasn't it then contradicted soon after by Sunak? Which makes it worse.
Tbf, he didn't announce a review - he said he'd take the question away and speak to the treasury....
Yes. But really.
Interestingly, I thought it reflected quite well on the process. He had clearly never seen that Q before.
Thing is, if the government says, in response to a random question, that they will investigate changing an entire legal structure then you know something is not right.
.. Anneliese Dodds btw - a Gordon Brown in a skirt in the making?
God I hope not!
That was a very odd appointment. Maybe she'll grow into the job, but it was extraordinary to choose someone so inexperienced and lightweight for such an important role. I might be wrong, but it looks to me like a misstep by Sir Keir.
You are kind of betting on whether Cummings stays. If he does, a Labour lead at some point would seem inevitable.
Not so sure otherwise, especially if Boris were to move quickly and decisively against Pinnochio.
I'm not sure why Boris showing weakness and giving Starmer a scalp prevents Starmer from getting a lead?
Red Ed had managed multiple poll leads after the same time leading the party as Starmer has had. With another 7 months to go it'd be truly remarkable for Labour not getting a lead at some point.
@Philip_Thompson, you are making the mistake of thinking it is a victory for Cummings to remain in post. It isn't. @MaxPB is absolutely right that projecting "one rule for you lot, another for us" is the wrong message.
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
I agree the way it was managed initially was screwed up. I criticised Boris for clearing Cummings without a detailed explanation and said he should have kicked it into the grass with an independent investigation . . . . not because I thought it needed one, but for the optics.
But I think Cummings done nothing wrong and think he thought and still thinks he's done nothing wrong. I think too much honesty has been the problem. I think the explanation on Sunday was eminently reasonable and listening to him speak about the harrassment of his home just after people were gleefully sharing videos of Led By Donkeys etc outside his home was ironic.
I think there's been legitimate criticism, but also a baying mob and giving in to them is not the right thing.
You really don't think breaking the government's own guidelines was wrong?
Understandable in the circumstances, sure. But one of the government's most senior advisors broke the rules.
A simply apology was enough, because (as I keep saying) this isn't a hanging or resigning offence. But to deny that what you did was worthy of censure is astonishing, breathtaking arrogance.
No I don't, not if there's exceptional circumstances which I genuinely think there were. I liked the answer of Hancock today saying he was on stage six weeks ago when the DCMO said that childcare was an exceptional issue.
If he'd gone for a party or something completely flippant then it'd be outrageous. For the interests of a child it is not.
As I said, I think too much honesty has been the issue. I think an apology would have smoothed things, but an apology when you don't accept you've done anything wrong is a lie.
I think people believe he went to Durham for a holiday or a party and that somehow Durham is the tourist Mecca of the UK.
This feels in many ways like the election that never was - an ostensibly trivial party issue that could have been dealt with by putting it to bed that occurs against the backdrop of a building/current crisis, which undercuts a key perception of a superficially very popular government. In Brown's case, it is that he was a non-partisan father of the nation figure, in this case its anti-elitist status as tribunes of the people. Plus of course an opposition leader people at the very least are open to giving a hearing.
That's not to say this will end up the same way, but if I were a Tory I would be very worried that with so many unpleasant, some necessary, others maybe not, decisions to make as we come out of the immediate crisis, plus many other errors it's possible to make - this is now a prism it's seen through. I mean let's bloody hope not with every fibre of our bodies, but if when lockdown is loosened cases start peaking again, rightly or wrongly, the response to this will be seen as having harmed public health messaging. When Sunak has to make tough economic decisions on what to support and what not to, it will also echo.
This has had real cut through thanks to people's difficult circumstances and bottled up worries over whether the government were looking out for them. It will make it much harder for them to get the benefit of the doubt in the future. Although I have never voted Tory, I'd still wish them all the best, but it's genuinely a lot more difficult to with the callousness they have dealt with this and the deep pain to those who did follow the rules, to their own cost, this has caused.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Nor were any of them driving infected people around the country cos they felt like it.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
They weren't MPs who voted for the rules to become law of the land?
How did they vote when the Commons made the law of the land?
The lockdown rules were a statutory instrument. No idea if they were voted on.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
Well put.
Plus - it’s such a simple thing to make your mind up about. No 10 year forecasts, dodgy statistics, hypothetical situations etc.
PM says we should all do something difficult for the public good and his right hand man does something else.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Beers on standby, I hope.
Ginger beer, surely! 😉
Nobody, least of all the government, seems able to give a reasonable answer to your question @Cyclefree. But I can’t join in as I’ve been told off at least twice on PB today for mentioning pubs!
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
Johnson is torching everything for Cummings. What the hell is wrong with him? There have to be genuine questions for the Tories to ask about his fitness for office.
I believe the calculation in Government is this:
1) The British public weren't going to accept lockdown for long - which is why the Government was so reluctant to bring it in in the first place - and eventually there was going to be a crisis point where all the repressed frustration was released
2) By chance, the crisis point was a story about Dominic Cummings. It could have been Robert Jenrick or even Johnson's trip to Chequers, but Cummings fell in the 2 month sweet spot where people were really getting upset
3) The frustration is not going to go away just because the focus of the frustration goes away. If Cummings is sacked, people will still be pissed off. They'll just redirect that anger towards other people in Government
4) So sacking Cummings won't calm the anger, and the lesson the press will learn is that if they stir up the anger even more they can get bigger scalps, which will damage the Government more and more until they face the press down and demonstrate that they won't give in to media pressure
That’s their calculation for sure, But it is a calculation that is trashing their political capital and authority in the country. Johnson has “lost the dressing room” as football pundits put it. And the fans it seems.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Beers on standby, I hope.
Ginger beer, surely! 😉
Nobody, least of all the government, seems able to give a reasonable answer to your question @Cyclefree. But I can’t join in as I’ve been told off at least twice on PB today for mentioning pubs!
I agree with you and Cyclefree. I suggested outdoor restrictions should be lifted the same as outdoor markets etc, I don't see why we can go to outdoor markets but not outdoor gardens to see family and friends (in unlimited but socially distanced numbers).
This is the sort of thing that should be getting discussed. For people's mental health.
So hold on, 30% of Leavers have gone to Labour. What percentage did Labour get in 2019?
Starmer already said Brexit is over and he will not seek to rejoin the EU. Beyond hammering that home for the next five years, how can he win on this issue?
15% of Leavers voted Labour in 2019, that has now gone up to 17%. 48% of Remainers voted Labour and that has risen to 52%
So the main movement is still of Remainers to Labour
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
Johnson is torching everything for Cummings. What the hell is wrong with him? There have to be genuine questions for the Tories to ask about his fitness for office.
I believe the calculation in Government is this:
1) The British public weren't going to accept lockdown for long - which is why the Government was so reluctant to bring it in in the first place - and eventually there was going to be a crisis point where all the repressed frustration was released
2) By chance, the crisis point was a story about Dominic Cummings. It could have been Robert Jenrick or even Johnson's trip to Chequers, but Cummings fell in the 2 month sweet spot where people were really getting upset
3) The frustration is not going to go away just because the focus of the frustration goes away. If Cummings is sacked, people will still be pissed off. They'll just redirect that anger towards other people in Government
4) So sacking Cummings won't calm the anger, and the lesson the press will learn is that if they stir up the anger even more they can get bigger scalps, which will damage the Government more and more until they face the press down and demonstrate that they won't give in to media pressure
That is the fantastic analysis.
The Government need to not be blown off course with this Cummings nonsense and need to get on with doing the job. Do that right and people will move on. People want to get back on with their lives.
Concede on this but not address the underlying real issues and the Two Minutes Hate will move elsewhere.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
But we shouldn't get too blinded by the Cummings disaster in isolation. It wasn't going well before that, and it was always going to go even more badly as the reality of Covid-19 works through the economy, and the looming disaster of the Brexit negotiations comes into view. I'm not surprised of course; it has been clear for years that Boris Johnson is unfit for high office, which the Conservative Party knew as well as anyone. Unfortunately they deliberately chose to forget it.
Meanwhile Labour now has a sane, plausible, and decent leader, and will gradually build up a broad, credible front-bench. Already it is possible for a sensible person of integrity to support them again.
With one factor pushing people away from the Conservatives, and the other pulling them back to Labour, we can expect further shifts in the polls. It's hardly a complicated calculation.
You have certainly been vindicated in your decision to leave the Conservatives and the reasons you gave for doing so.
Although not a Tory I have always been convinced Boris was not up to the job but I am genuinely quite surprised at the speed with which it is falling apart. Sadly for all of us I believe it is only going to get worse.
This is about the most lightweight cabinet I can recall in my lifetime. Given that the membership will select the most hardline leaver available who on earth would take over if Johnson quits? Gove is about the only heavyweight in there and he is making a fool of himself over the Cummings saga.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
No it isn't. But they weren't infected.
Are we saying that if you "believe" that you are not infected, you can ignore the rules?
You see, this comes back to my main point, the outrage is based on your political rather than your moral stance
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Beers on standby, I hope.
Ginger beer, surely! 😉
Nobody, least of all the government, seems able to give a reasonable answer to your question @Cyclefree. But I can’t join in as I’ve been told off at least twice on PB today for mentioning pubs!
I agree with you and Cyclefree. I suggested outdoor restrictions should be lifted the same as outdoor markets etc, I don't see why we can go to outdoor markets but not outdoor gardens to see family and friends (in unlimited but socially distanced numbers).
This is the sort of thing that should be getting discussed. For people's mental health.
I don't want to be repetitive but I have posted a number of times on here that we need to remove restrictions on family gatherings and also get the pubs, restaurants etc open (initially on a socially distanced basis if we have to) from 1 June. This is what the public are really interested in at the moment.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
Actually I think both Johnson and Cummings should take 6 months off and return when everyone's talking about other things. I've been saying that for a few days.
How can you possibly do that in the middle of this crisis?
But we shouldn't get too blinded by the Cummings disaster in isolation. It wasn't going well before that, and it was always going to go even more badly as the reality of Covid-19 works through the economy, and the looming disaster of the Brexit negotiations comes into view. I'm not surprised of course; it has been clear for years that Boris Johnson is unfit for high office, which the Conservative Party knew as well as anyone. Unfortunately they deliberately chose to forget it.
Meanwhile Labour now has a sane, plausible, and decent leader, and will gradually build up a broad, credible front-bench. Already it is possible for a sensible person of integrity to support them again.
With one factor pushing people away from the Conservatives, and the other pulling them back to Labour, we can expect further shifts in the polls. It's hardly a complicated calculation.
You have certainly been vindicated in your decision to leave the Conservatives and the reasons you gave for doing so.
Although not a Tory I have always been convinced Boris was not up to the job but I am genuinely quite surprised at the speed with which it is falling apart. Sadly for all of us I believe it is only going to get worse.
This is about the most lightweight cabinet I can recall in my lifetime. Given that the membership will select the most hardline leaver available who on earth would take over if Johnson quits? Gove is about the only heavyweight in there and he is making a fool of himself over the Cummings saga.
The most senior Leaver in Cabinet not to have endorsed Cummings? Priti Patel
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
No it isn't. But they weren't infected.
Are we saying that if you "believe" that you are not infected, you can ignore the rules?
You see, this comes back to my main point, the outrage is based on your political rather than your moral stance
That is what "no it isn't" means. Keep up. It is unacceptable when you think you are healthy. It is utterly immoral when you suspect you are infected. Politics doesn't come in to it.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
MPs are higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Yes, that's...strange. Surrey is one of the 11 pilot areas for track and trace. Borough councils are supposed to help, and we have just been contacted. We're supposed to be operational the day after tomorrow?? This is like that "Go back to work tomorrow morning" thing.
BoZo did rather unwisely commit to Track and Trace being in place and "world leading" by Monday.
Yep. Seems set up to fail once again. Starmer is beginning to grow on me a little. He is clever enough to not interrupt an enemy making a mistake. At present that means keeping fairly quiet and letting the Tories stew.
Tis a pity though. Track and Trace could have been quite a step forward if Isolation wasn't a laughing stock.
Away from Dumbings for a moment and the Remdesivir story on the Guardian and Times front pages looks promising.
A mitigation in recovery time will make a large difference I should think?
Agreed - its a real game changer.
Not sure it’s a game changer, as there’s no evidence yet that it improves survival rates, but it’s certainly better that hydrochloroquine.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Everyone who tries to defend Cummings pretends that he just infringed lockdown and don't we all. He ignored quarantine and drove to another part of the country when he and his family had Covid 19.
It's like saying that somebody caught doing 100mph in a 30 zone is OK because we all go over the speed limit occasionally.
Fortunately, as we can see from tonight's polling, the vast majority of people simply don't agree with you.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
Rather than wreck public confidence in the government and its instructions on sick people isolating ? Yes.
And if he thinks he’s done nothing wrong he shouldn’t be a senior adviser anyway,
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Beers on standby, I hope.
Ginger beer, surely! 😉
Nobody, least of all the government, seems able to give a reasonable answer to your question @Cyclefree. But I can’t join in as I’ve been told off at least twice on PB today for mentioning pubs!
But we shouldn't get too blinded by the Cummings disaster in isolation. It wasn't going well before that, and it was always going to go even more badly as the reality of Covid-19 works through the economy, and the looming disaster of the Brexit negotiations comes into view. I'm not surprised of course; it has been clear for years that Boris Johnson is unfit for high office, which the Conservative Party knew as well as anyone. Unfortunately they deliberately chose to forget it.
Meanwhile Labour now has a sane, plausible, and decent leader, and will gradually build up a broad, credible front-bench. Already it is possible for a sensible person of integrity to support them again.
With one factor pushing people away from the Conservatives, and the other pulling them back to Labour, we can expect further shifts in the polls. It's hardly a complicated calculation.
You have certainly been vindicated in your decision to leave the Conservatives and the reasons you gave for doing so.
Although not a Tory I have always been convinced Boris was not up to the job but I am genuinely quite surprised at the speed with which it is falling apart. Sadly for all of us I believe it is only going to get worse.
This is about the most lightweight cabinet I can recall in my lifetime. Given that the membership will select the most hardline leaver available who on earth would take over if Johnson quits? Gove is about the only heavyweight in there and he is making a fool of himself over the Cummings saga.
The most senior Leaver in Cabinet not to have endorsed Cummings? Priti Patel
Yes - that’s been noticeable - and from someone who’s a Boris loyalist too.
.. Anneliese Dodds btw - a Gordon Brown in a skirt in the making?
God I hope not!
That was a very odd appointment. Maybe she'll grow into the job, but it was extraordinary to choose someone so inexperienced and lightweight for such an important role. I might be wrong, but it looks to me like a misstep by Sir Keir.
Agreed. Why didn’t he go for Rachel Reeves? She’s obviously the strongest candidate.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
Erm, Leo Varadker is a bit more than an ordinary MP. Vaughn Gething is the Labour Health Minister on the Welsh Assembly.
I agree that there are positions in life that get you more (or less) punishment for misdemeanors. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the inconsistency of our press and our fellow travellers on PB
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
To prevent damage to government he serves and avoid discrediting the Covid-19 response? Hell yes he should apologise even if he hadn’t done anything wrong. People sacrifice their lives for lesser causes. It’s not a huge ask in the great scheme of things.
In December 1981 the Tories were in third place in the polls behind the SDP and Michael Foot's Labour Party. Everyone assumed that Mrs Thatcher wouldn't last in office for more than a couple of years.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
Erm, Leo Varadker is a bit more than an ordinary MP. Vaughn Gething is the Labour Health Minister on the Welsh Assembly.
I agree that there are positions in life that get you more (or less) punishment for misdemeanors. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the inconsistency of our press and our fellow travellers on PB
Just as a matter of interest, did either of those guys apologise for breaking the rules?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
To prevent damage to government he serves and avoid discrediting the Covid-19 response? Hell yes he should apologise even if he hadn’t done anything wrong. People sacrifice their lives for lesser causes. It’s not a huge ask in the great scheme of things.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
MPs are higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings.
Cummings has the earhole of the PM on his speed dial. Do you seriously think that he is nowhere near the top of the Greasy Pole?
Even if every MP in the HoC was rated as higher than Cummings, that would still put him in the top 700 people in the UK as far as this pandemic is concerned. Quibble if you want, but let us say there are another 300 above him making Cummings No.1000.
That still puts Cummings in the top 0.002% or ahead of 99.998% of the population.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Yes, that's...strange. Surrey is one of the 11 pilot areas for track and trace. Borough councils are supposed to help, and we have just been contacted. We're supposed to be operational the day after tomorrow?? This is like that "Go back to work tomorrow morning" thing.
BoZo did rather unwisely commit to Track and Trace being in place and "world leading" by Monday.
Yep. Seems set up to fail once again. Starmer is beginning to grow on me a little. He is clever enough to not interrupt an enemy making a mistake. At present that means keeping fairly quiet and letting the Tories stew.
Tis a pity though. Track and Trace could have been quite a step forward if Isolation wasn't a laughing stock.
Away from Dumbings for a moment and the Remdesivir story on the Guardian and Times front pages looks promising.
A mitigation in recovery time will make a large difference I should think?
Agreed - its a real game changer.
Not sure it’s a game changer, as there’s no evidence yet that it improves survival rates, but it’s certainly better that hydrochloroquine.
Death rates are already extremely low for fit and healthy under 60s.
But this appears to reduce the recovery time and make the condition less arduous - so a big step forward potentially?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
To prevent damage to government he serves and avoid discrediting the Covid-19 response? Hell yes he should apologise even if he hadn’t done anything wrong. People sacrifice their lives for lesser causes. It’s not a huge ask in the great scheme of things.
I think that's a terrible message.
And you think the message he actually represented to the nation is better ?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
No, Cummings needed to go. Temporarily. Then he could have kept his dignity, he could have said, I feel I have done nothing wrong, and this is why - let him tell the details son in hospital etc - but I am now a distraction to the government at a time of maximum peril.
That would have vented all the spleen. Zero political damage. Possibly some kudos to Boris for being firm but fair.
Then Boris could have - I will say it again - rehired Dom as a new kind of consultant in the torpors of high summer. Zero damage again. The govt would have lost his talents for a few weeks (and could still have called him on the phone, frankly)
I do not understand HMG's mad, self harming behaviour. I have seen no plausible explanation that covers all the questions. "Boris needs Dom" does not cut it.
Couple of things spring to mind. One is that the Dom-shaped hole wouldn't be stable. Whoever took over his day-to-day stuff would have to have an unlikely mix of ambition (to want to be top assistant dog for a few months) and self-effacement (to voluntarily step aside after a few months). Might work in business, harder to see it working in politics. A bit like the "Boris should have six months off" idea; what active politician would want to be Supply PM? What authority would they have?
Also, stepping aside isn't what Dom has done. His MO has always been to double down; even yesterday, he didn't apologise, because it goes against every fibre of his being. And the thing about that relentlessness is that you can't ever fold. Because once you do, your reputation is gone.
In December 1981 the Tories were in third place in the polls behind the SDP and Michael Foot's Labour Party. Everyone assumed that Mrs Thatcher wouldn't last in office for more than a couple of years.
Yes but had she still been in 3rd place in the polls by late 1982 she would have been toppled by someone like Francis Pym as Tory leader
.. Anneliese Dodds btw - a Gordon Brown in a skirt in the making?
God I hope not!
That was a very odd appointment. Maybe she'll grow into the job, but it was extraordinary to choose someone so inexperienced and lightweight for such an important role. I might be wrong, but it looks to me like a misstep by Sir Keir.
I've met her a couple of times. She's as bright as a button, and her constituency appear to adore her (bearing in mind that most people I know in Oxford East are either Lib Dems or Greens).
I don't know whether she's politically dexterous enough to make a success of being Shadow Chancellor, but she's certainly intellectually up to the task.
If @oxfordsimon were regularly posting right now I would be interested in his view on her.
I don't want to be repetitive but I have posted a number of times on here that we need to remove restrictions on family gatherings and also get the pubs, restaurants etc open (initially on a socially distanced basis if we have to) from 1 June. This is what the public are really interested in at the moment.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
But he did do something wrong. He broke the government's own guidelines.
Now, he did that for completely understandable reasons. But he still broke them, while expecting others not to.
If my child breaks a rule that I've set for understandable reasons, I still expect them to own the fact that the rule was broken.
And the rules were broken. Even if we just take a single example of his trip to Castle Bernard, that was breaking the rules. "Checking my eyesight is OK" is so far off the acceptable list of reasons to break lockdown (or even to be on the road).
He broke the rules. Now, sure he did it with good reason. But he broke them. And he should - and didn't - own that.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Beers on standby, I hope.
Ginger beer, surely! 😉
Nobody, least of all the government, seems able to give a reasonable answer to your question @Cyclefree. But I can’t join in as I’ve been told off at least twice on PB today for mentioning pubs!
Ignore that! Say what you think.
Pubs are the backbone of Britain. They are the very essence of the nation. I mountain bike from pub to pub in the summer months, sometimes I stay over, on longer rides.
They are diamonds studding the English landscape. In the winter, I walk with friends to them and warm up with a pint.
I’m stunned and saddened at how sanguine many PBers are at the potential destruction of our national heritage.
Every sinew should be strained to get these back open, with public funding if necessary.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
No, Cummings needed to go. Temporarily. Then he could have kept his dignity, he could have said, I feel I have done nothing wrong, and this is why - let him tell the details son in hospital etc - but I am now a distraction to the government at a time of maximum peril.
That would have vented all the spleen. Zero political damage. Possibly some kudos to Boris for being firm but fair.
Then Boris could have - I will say it again - rehired Dom as a new kind of consultant in the torpors of high summer. Zero damage again. The govt would have lost his talents for a few weeks (and could still have called him on the phone, frankly)
I do not understand HMG's mad, self harming behaviour. I have seen no plausible explanation that covers all the questions. "Boris needs Dom" does not cut it.
I agree with both of you.
I don’t like the guy at all, but his presence or absence in government is of far less importance than the damage this has done.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
Erm, Leo Varadker is a bit more than an ordinary MP. Vaughn Gething is the Labour Health Minister on the Welsh Assembly.
I agree that there are positions in life that get you more (or less) punishment for misdemeanors. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the inconsistency of our press and our fellow travellers on PB
Just as a matter of interest, did either of those guys apologise for breaking the rules?
Well, I cannot speak for others, but I have been completely consistent on Cummings & Boris.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
Should he apologise even if he doesn't think he's done anything wrong?
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
To prevent damage to government he serves and avoid discrediting the Covid-19 response? Hell yes he should apologise even if he hadn’t done anything wrong. People sacrifice their lives for lesser causes. It’s not a huge ask in the great scheme of things.
I think that's a terrible message.
And you think the message he actually represented to the nation is better ?
Pubs are the backbone of Britain. They are the very essence of the nation. I mountain bike from pub to pub in the summer months, sometimes I stay over, on longer rides.
They are diamonds studding the English landscape. In the winter, I walk with friends to them and warm up with a pint.
I’m stunned and saddened at how sanguine many PBers are at the potential destruction of our national heritage.
Every sinew should be strained to get these back open, with public funding if necessary.
That’s what I think.
From 9 to 4 every day, I can look out my window and see a socially-distanced queue for the pharmacy a few doors down.
From 4 to 6, I look out and see a socially-distanced queue for people getting a take-out from the pub a few doors down from that.
It's lovely. Smalltown England is not letting any of this Covid shit get in the way of its pint. We have reused our take-out container so many times now I've had to duct-tape up the base.
Come and visit us, Anabobazina, and I'll buy you a pint.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
I don't understand your question.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
I don't understand your question.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
I perceive it as he suggested he was subject to the same rules as everyone else.
If I had to balance my children's interests or artificial guidelines that don't apply to every situation, I'd put my children's interests first. Especially if the law said that was OK. I expect most other parents would.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Everyone who tries to defend Cummings pretends that he just infringed lockdown and don't we all. He ignored quarantine and drove to another part of the country when he and his family had Covid 19.
It's like saying that somebody caught doing 100mph in a 30 zone is OK because we all go over the speed limit occasionally.
Fortunately, as we can see from tonight's polling, the vast majority of people simply don't agree with you.
Actually, the vast majority of people do agree with me, like all of those people I think it was an absolute coincidence that the Cummings family went on an eyesight test drive on his wife's birthday (should have gone to Specsavers).
My question is, why don't they, and perhaps you, agree with me on the other cases.
I have seen many replies to my original post tonight, but I have yet to see one that addresses that particular point. Your opinion on this matter is directly aligned with your political view.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Great post
Not great post. None of those people mentioned were responsible for introducing the rules which they then subsequently broke. Dom was.
Oh, so it's ok to drive a few hundred miles to visit your parents; attend a birthday party; mingle with a 100 people at a funeral; attend picnics.
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
Surely the point here is that those in authority have a greater responsibility? For instance if you are caught speeding you might get sent on one of those courses and get no points, but a copper caught speeding gets less mercy because they cannot plead ignorance. A barrister or judge that breaks the law is usually treated more harshly than Joe Public for the same offence. Those who make or enforce the rules are expected to behave to a higher standard.
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
Erm, Leo Varadker is a bit more than an ordinary MP. Vaughn Gething is the Labour Health Minister on the Welsh Assembly.
I agree that there are positions in life that get you more (or less) punishment for misdemeanors. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the inconsistency of our press and our fellow travellers on PB
Just as a matter of interest, did either of those guys apologise for breaking the rules?
Leo Varadker didn't break any rules (and if there was any risk of me voting Fine Gael I'd disown myself).
I have an instinct and I concemned Boris when he made the idiotic endorsement of Cummings. It is clear Cummings and Boris have lost their moral compass
Don't you have to have had a moral compass to lose one?
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
I don't understand your question.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
But, my question still stands. Have you been as critical of others in senior positions.
Let's face it, Cummings seems to be an awkward and arrogant sod. Yes, I believe he was wrong in what he did.
But tell me that in our discourse on this site that the Irish Prime Minister is irrelevant (let's see the media compare the UK death rates with those of Ireland to see how irrelevant that will be).
Is the Welsh Labour Party spokesperson on Health no less relevant than a government advisor?
The answer to those questions is clearly no. But if we are going to allow a witch hunt, let's get all the bastards 😁
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
Everyone who tries to defend Cummings pretends that he just infringed lockdown and don't we all. He ignored quarantine and drove to another part of the country when he and his family had Covid 19.
It's like saying that somebody caught doing 100mph in a 30 zone is OK because we all go over the speed limit occasionally.
Fortunately, as we can see from tonight's polling, the vast majority of people simply don't agree with you.
Actually, the vast majority of people do agree with me, like all of those people I think it was an absolute coincidence that the Cummings family went on an eyesight test drive on his wife's birthday (should have gone to Specsavers).
My question is, why don't they, and perhaps you, agree with me on the other cases.
I have seen many replies to my original post tonight, but I have yet to see one that addresses that particular point. Your opinion on this matter is directly aligned with your political view.
Give me a convincing argument that it isn't.
I've already said. None of the others suspected they were infected. They were wrong but not malicious. It is similar to having unprotected anal sex. And doing it when you strongly suspect you are HIV positive. If you can't see the difference then it is a pointless circular argument. That many of the others you name have had the decency to reflect and apologise merely weakens your already tenuous point.
I don't think we've had any other prominent person accused of breaking quarantine rules. This is a massively important distinction.
Cummings knew his wife was ill, possibly with Coronavirus, and expected to fall ill, as he did himself shortly after they travelled. If it was coronavirus then we know he would have been at peak infectivity when he was travelling.
This is way more serious than staying longer than necessary to deliver groceries to have a socially distanced chat with your parents when neither of you suspect you are, or will be, carriers.
For the last seven days we are second? That is a surprise
Do not fear, with lockdown over, public spaces full to the brim and track and trace nowhere to be seen our place at the top of the leader board looks assured
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
I don't understand your question.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
But, my question still stands. Have you been as critical of others in senior positions.
Let's face it, Cummings seems to be an awkward and arrogant sod. Yes, I believe he was wrong in what he did.
But tell me that in our discourse on this site that the Irish Prime Minister is irrelevant (let's see the media compare the UK death rates with those of Ireland to see how irrelevant that will be).
Is the Welsh Labour Party spokesperson on Health no less relevant than a government advisor?
The answer to those questions is clearly no. But if we are going to allow a witch hunt, let's get all the bastards 😁
Sorry?
Have I been critical of the Irish PM? He's not my PM.
Have I been critical of the Welsh Minister? He's not my minister.
For the record, I've not been critical of the Austrian President either, although I heard he broke lockdown in Austria.
If I was Austrian, I would expect I would be critical. Likewise Welsh. Likewise Irish.
I have voted for exactly one of the following four governments: Ireland, Wales, Austria and the UK. I don't think it's unreasonable that I should pay particular attention to the government that I voted for.
I don't often post, but I've had a couple of glasses of a decent red tonight, so WTF.
Can you tell me, all those people that are calling for Cummings to resign, were you as angry and vociferous about Stephen Kinnock or Kevan Jones? How about Tahir Ali and Vaughn Gething? What about Leo Varadkar? No doubt there are many more that I have missed out.
Do I think Cummings was mistaken in the actions that he took, probably yes.
But FFS, let's be clear, this is not about the rights and wrongs of his actions. Unless you made the same angry criticism about those other political figures, it's about where you sit with your own political views (please don't bring in Brexit although I am sure that is also colouring some views).
Go ahead, repost and retweet some politically biased persons 'tremendously insightful' or 'funny' Twitter comment. That won't persuade anyone with a brain, one way or the other (but it might make you feel good)
When newspapers and TV stations bang on about "the ordinary people will feel they don't have to follow the rules", are they encouraging good behaviour or are they behaving irresponsibly in an attempt to make a few coins. Are they contributing to the solution or the problem?
I'm old enough to remember when our media reported news rather than went for "gotcha" moments. These last few months have seen the fourth estate lose their marbles completely.
Enough, back to the Paulliac
I didn't call for him to go. I called for him to apologise.
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
I have the greatest respect for you, your contribution to this great site and your posts in general. However....
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
I don't understand your question.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
I perceive it as he suggested he was subject to the same rules as everyone else.
If I had to balance my children's interests or artificial guidelines that don't apply to every situation, I'd put my children's interests first. Especially if the law said that was OK. I expect most other parents would.
As children are the analogies of the day.
I would call my child out on their behaviour (Cummings). I wouldn't call my kids friends out on their behaviour, because they're not my kids (Leo V, the Welsh bloke, etc.)
Comments
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1265403606288777219?s=19
If Boris is smart tomorrow he should announce that in line with outdoor markets meeting friends and family outdoors (subject to social distancing) is now permitted in gardens etc as well as in parks.
Its time to smartly unwind the lockdown bit by bit and if muppets want to talk about 'man drives car for children' instead of real news let them.
Starmer already said Brexit is over and he will not seek to rejoin the EU. Beyond hammering that home for the next five years, how can he win on this issue?
It is driving across the country with disease putting health care workers and the population of the NE in danger of infection.
When you were responsible for Stay Home Save Lives Protect the NHS.
And you ignored all three of those.
And why?
Cos you couldn't be arsed looking after your sick wife and your child in your million pound plus property.
And then you have the gall to be all arsey because folk don't appreciate your oh so clever excuse to why it is all OK.
The public aren't idiots. And they don't lack compassion.
But they recognise only too clearly that at least a couple of people at the very top of government do.
It is about morality and common decency at a time of extreme shared anxiety and stress.
At the 2019 election the Tories were ahead 46/31 with men and just 43/34 with women.
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
Anneliese Dodds btw - a Gordon Brown in a skirt in the making?
How did they vote when the Commons made the law of the land?
That was a very odd appointment. Maybe she'll grow into the job, but it was extraordinary to choose someone so inexperienced and lightweight for such an important role. I might be wrong, but it looks to me like a misstep by Sir Keir.
That's not to say this will end up the same way, but if I were a Tory I would be very worried that with so many unpleasant, some necessary, others maybe not, decisions to make as we come out of the immediate crisis, plus many other errors it's possible to make - this is now a prism it's seen through. I mean let's bloody hope not with every fibre of our bodies, but if when lockdown is loosened cases start peaking again, rightly or wrongly, the response to this will be seen as having harmed public health messaging. When Sunak has to make tough economic decisions on what to support and what not to, it will also echo.
This has had real cut through thanks to people's difficult circumstances and bottled up worries over whether the government were looking out for them. It will make it much harder for them to get the benefit of the doubt in the future. Although I have never voted Tory, I'd still wish them all the best, but it's genuinely a lot more difficult to with the callousness they have dealt with this and the deep pain to those who did follow the rules, to their own cost, this has caused.
PM says we should all do something difficult for the public good and his right hand man does something else.
Police are reported to have asked two people to leave the politician's home in North Wales on Bank Holiday Monday."
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-police-break-up-birthday-party-at-tory-mp-rob-robertss-house-11995333
As long as you didn't set the rules.
Not great, Topping, not great at all.
This is the sort of thing that should be getting discussed. For people's mental health.
So the main movement is still of Remainers to Labour
https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-2019-election
He chose not to do so. And Boris Johnson chose to back him despite his failure to apologise.
This has diminished both of them in my eyes.
The Government need to not be blown off course with this Cummings nonsense and need to get on with doing the job. Do that right and people will move on. People want to get back on with their lives.
Concede on this but not address the underlying real issues and the Two Minutes Hate will move elsewhere.
Although not a Tory I have always been convinced Boris was not up to the job but I am genuinely quite surprised at the speed with which it is falling apart. Sadly for all of us I believe it is only going to get worse.
This is about the most lightweight cabinet I can recall in my lifetime. Given that the membership will select the most hardline leaver available who on earth would take over if Johnson quits? Gove is about the only heavyweight in there and he is making a fool of himself over the Cummings saga.
Not a "sorry you're upset" apology that people know what it means. Should he lie and say sorry if he think he did the right thing in his circumstances?
What happened to tutting and getting on with your day?
You see, this comes back to my main point, the outrage is based on your political rather than your moral stance
It is hard to get much higher up the legislative pyramid than Cummings. He therefore gets less leeway for his trangressions than you or I or even MPs
How can you possibly do that in the middle of this crisis?
It is unacceptable when you think you are healthy.
It is utterly immoral when you suspect you are infected.
Politics doesn't come in to it.
Yet tonight they failed to put this on their front page. Funny that.
It's like saying that somebody caught doing 100mph in a 30 zone is OK because we all go over the speed limit occasionally.
Fortunately, as we can see from tonight's polling, the vast majority of people simply don't agree with you.
Yes.
And if he thinks he’s done nothing wrong he shouldn’t be a senior adviser anyway,
https://twitter.com/euromaestro/status/1265253754619731969
What have we learnt from the coronavirus outlier?"
https://thecritic.co.uk/live-free-and-die-swedens-coronavirus-experience/
Reeves? She’s obviously the strongest candidate.
I agree that there are positions in life that get you more (or less) punishment for misdemeanors. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the inconsistency of our press and our fellow travellers on PB
Even if every MP in the HoC was rated as higher than Cummings, that would still put him in the top 700 people in the UK as far as this pandemic is concerned. Quibble if you want, but let us say there are another 300 above him making Cummings No.1000.
That still puts Cummings in the top 0.002% or ahead of 99.998% of the population.
Now, tell me how that does not count...
But this appears to reduce the recovery time and make the condition less arduous - so a big step forward potentially?
Also, stepping aside isn't what Dom has done. His MO has always been to double down; even yesterday, he didn't apologise, because it goes against every fibre of his being. And the thing about that relentlessness is that you can't ever fold. Because once you do, your reputation is gone.
I don't know whether she's politically dexterous enough to make a success of being Shadow Chancellor, but she's certainly intellectually up to the task.
If @oxfordsimon were regularly posting right now I would be interested in his view on her.
Now, he did that for completely understandable reasons. But he still broke them, while expecting others not to.
If my child breaks a rule that I've set for understandable reasons, I still expect them to own the fact that the rule was broken.
And the rules were broken. Even if we just take a single example of his trip to Castle Bernard, that was breaking the rules. "Checking my eyesight is OK" is so far off the acceptable list of reasons to break lockdown (or even to be on the road).
He broke the rules. Now, sure he did it with good reason. But he broke them. And he should - and didn't - own that.
My point is not about the rights and wrongs of Dominic Cummings and his actions. It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has.
They are diamonds studding the English landscape. In the winter, I walk with friends to them and warm up with a pint.
I’m stunned and saddened at how sanguine many PBers are at the potential destruction of our national heritage.
Every sinew should be strained to get these back open, with public funding if necessary.
That’s what I think.
I don’t like the guy at all, but his presence or absence in government is of far less importance than the damage this has done.
From 4 to 6, I look out and see a socially-distanced queue for people getting a take-out from the pub a few doors down from that.
It's lovely. Smalltown England is not letting any of this Covid shit get in the way of its pint. We have reused our take-out container so many times now I've had to duct-tape up the base.
Come and visit us, Anabobazina, and I'll buy you a pint.
"It is about the equal treatment of misdemeanors from whatever political stripe they stand. Do you think that there has been an impartial and unbiased approach because I don't think there has"
The PB community is not a single entity, it is hundreds of different posters of different political persuasions.
Some are baying for DC's blood because he's their political enemy.
Others defend him.
I am telling you that I believe he acted in a way that weakens our democracy and our country by not owning up and apologising for his actions. That is my view.
What other posters say is of no relevence whatsoever to my view. And bringing up the Irish PM (or is he ex-PM yet?) is equally of no relevance.
I am critical because one of the senior advisors to my country's government broke government guidelines that everyone else was expected to follow, and then behaved in an incredibly arrogant way that suggested that he was subject to different rules to everyone else.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-knows-it-encourages-division-top-executives-nixed-solutions-11590507499
The social-media giant internally studied how it polarizes users, then largely shelved the research...
If I had to balance my children's interests or artificial guidelines that don't apply to every situation, I'd put my children's interests first. Especially if the law said that was OK. I expect most other parents would.
My question is, why don't they, and perhaps you, agree with me on the other cases.
I have seen many replies to my original post tonight, but I have yet to see one that addresses that particular point. Your opinion on this matter is directly aligned with your political view.
Give me a convincing argument that it isn't.
Let's face it, Cummings seems to be an awkward and arrogant sod. Yes, I believe he was wrong in what he did.
But tell me that in our discourse on this site that the Irish Prime Minister is irrelevant (let's see the media compare the UK death rates with those of Ireland to see how irrelevant that will be).
Is the Welsh Labour Party spokesperson on Health no less relevant than a government advisor?
The answer to those questions is clearly no. But if we are going to allow a witch hunt, let's get all the bastards 😁
If you can't see the difference then it is a pointless circular argument.
That many of the others you name have had the decency to reflect and apologise merely weakens your already tenuous point.
Cummings knew his wife was ill, possibly with Coronavirus, and expected to fall ill, as he did himself shortly after they travelled. If it was coronavirus then we know he would have been at peak infectivity when he was travelling.
This is way more serious than staying longer than necessary to deliver groceries to have a socially distanced chat with your parents when neither of you suspect you are, or will be, carriers.
Have I been critical of the Irish PM?
He's not my PM.
Have I been critical of the Welsh Minister?
He's not my minister.
For the record, I've not been critical of the Austrian President either, although I heard he broke lockdown in Austria.
If I was Austrian, I would expect I would be critical. Likewise Welsh. Likewise Irish.
I have voted for exactly one of the following four governments: Ireland, Wales, Austria and the UK. I don't think it's unreasonable that I should pay particular attention to the government that I voted for.
I would call my child out on their behaviour (Cummings). I wouldn't call my kids friends out on their behaviour, because they're not my kids (Leo V, the Welsh bloke, etc.)