If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
You speak like a man who thinks this is the last pickle the Johnson government will get into.
Governments go through crises from time to time.
Governments that collapse at the first sniff of trouble are not good governments.
That Boris has managed to ride this out is a strength not a weakness.
I agree. Strength is either sacking him by Saturday or keeping him. Weakness would be sacking him today or yesterday.
He is over reliant on Cummings but he has not been indecisive in this case. The Tories biggest critics will regret letting this moment slip through their fingers. Boris and Cummings are proven winners and have taken a huge hit to stay intact. Would anti Brexit or Labour supporters rather gain 4 points in a poll or have Cummings ousted? We all know the answer. I don't think they're getting both.
I agree entirely. Only outlier now, I think, is if Dom genuinely doesn't think its worth the personal grief anymore.
I actually thought the VI polls would be much WORSE for the Tories: maybe a small Labour lead
But the ancillary polls are grim. They have to hope that the Joy of Unlockdowning puts this in the past very soon.
Why the F didn't Boris do what I suggested, sack Dom on Friday, for a few weeks/months, use him quietly as an advisor on the phone, rehire him in August in some different role but basically the same one.
A terrific error.
It would appear that even a short period without Dom was too awful for poor Boris to contemplate.
Anyone who thinks if Cummings goes this will draw a line in the sand is a naive fool.
There'd be blood in the water and the sharks will keep looking for anyone who's done the slightest transgression to be snitched on and ousted.
No.
Had he apologised, and had he and the PM done a "I should resign", "No Dom- your country needs you" pas-de-deux on Saturday, he could have survived. It would have been embarrassing, and the government would have suffered some damage, and the Dom Swagger would have to be toned down a bit, but he could have survived. There is a reason that political types in a fix resign; swallowing some humble pie keeps them in the game.
What appears to be doing for Dom is is refusal to say sorry, his naivety about the press (he should have known on Saturday that there'd be more to come out on Sunday) and the risible contortions of his story yesterday. By treating the Great British Public like muppets he has brought three (and counting) days of hell on his government and ensured that it's more likely that he has to go and never surface again.
In which case, the questions are: 1. When? 2. How? Can he be allowed to resign, or must he be sacked to make a point? 3. Who does he take down with him?
Shame in many ways. He was bright and had some interesting ideas.
No, its over. Even the Mail isn't bothering with it on the front page anymore.
Boris would lose a lot of my respect if he caves now.
Boris has lost huge amounts of respect and he has even lost his USP
If he sacks Cummings he will plod on, but if not they will both be gone by the end of the year
What odds would you offer that both are still in place by the end of the year?
Crerar is soooo desperate for her scalp, and yet with every day that passes that prized bald pate slips further through her fingers...
Crerar just needed photos but she overplayed her hand. Desperate to pretend the story is getting bigger when it's getting smaller. I'm not pretending damage hasn't been done but outside Twitter minds have been made up and the heat has gone down a notch or two.
Gap closing, but given wall to wall coverage of that bloody fool Cummings, is it a surprise?
Had thought that Cummings was stepping back from politics in October for medical reasons, did he have an operation before the GE last December.
Yes, I think it is a surprise.
For many of us this isn't a left versus right thing, or leave versus remain. It's simply right versus wrong, in which case there is no reason to expect a big party political impact unless any of the Parties screw it up. Starmer has wisely kept his head down. Boris could have killed it, but hasn't so I guess that accounts for the slippage. Even so the shift in VI is small compared with the other key indicators.
Can anybody remember Alastair Campbell's dictum about how many days in the headines a miscreant Minister could survive before they got the chop? I seem to remember it was five but my memory might be playing tricks.
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Sounds good! By sheer coincidence I had reason to look up Wednesbury today for the first time in 20 years. Basic stuff but I was trying to draw a distinction between some employment and public law tests.
You are kind of betting on whether Cummings stays. If he does, a Labour lead at some point would seem inevitable.
Not so sure otherwise, especially if Boris were to move quickly and decisively against Pinnochio.
I'm not sure why Boris showing weakness and giving Starmer a scalp prevents Starmer from getting a lead?
Red Ed had managed multiple poll leads after the same time leading the party as Starmer has had. With another 7 months to go it'd be truly remarkable for Labour not getting a lead at some point.
@Philip_Thompson, you are making the mistake of thinking it is a victory for Cummings to remain in post. It isn't. @MaxPB is absolutely right that projecting "one rule for you lot, another for us" is the wrong message.
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
What was it Marx said about about the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce? This time it was Major's government that was the farce and Boris's is turning out to be the tragedy.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
Forget 9/11. Forget the Iraq War. Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons. Forget terror attacks in London Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc Forget austerity Forget the EU referendum. Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more. Forget Grenfell Tower Forget the Brexit divisions. Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
Despite the increasing clamour for his removal, there has been little change in the betting odds today as regards Dominic Cummings being in or out of his current position in five days' time on 1 June 2020. Betfair Sportsbook goes: Still in position ..... 2/5 Gone .......... 7/4
If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
It's a 9 point loss in one week. That is a huge change. You are right that it is still a Tory lead, but for how long?
Anyone who thinks if Cummings goes this will draw a line in the sand is a naive fool.
There'd be blood in the water and the sharks will keep looking for anyone who's done the slightest transgression to be snitched on and ousted.
No.
Had he apologised, and had he and the PM done a "I should resign", "No Dom- your country needs you" pas-de-deux on Saturday, he could have survived. It would have been embarrassing, and the government would have suffered some damage, and the Dom Swagger would have to be toned down a bit, but he could have survived. There is a reason that political types in a fix resign; swallowing some humble pie keeps them in the game.
What appears to be doing for Dom is is refusal to say sorry, his naivety about the press (he should have known on Saturday that there'd be more to come out on Sunday) and the risible contortions of his story yesterday. By treating the Great British Public like muppets he has brought three (and counting) days of hell on his government and ensured that it's more likely that he has to go and never surface again.
In which case, the questions are: 1. When? 2. How? Can he be allowed to resign, or must he be sacked to make a point? 3. Who does he take down with him?
Shame in many ways. He was bright and had some interesting ideas.
No, its over. Even the Mail isn't bothering with it on the front page anymore.
Boris would lose a lot of my respect if he caves now.
It's over, it's dropped down the BBC most read. The sun and mail are less interested. No point sacking him now. The PB bubble would have assumed Dom got sacked every day while Twitter was raging but they clearly feel the damage is worth it.
The public appetite for the story is tiring, so if the mirror and guardian want to run with it til Friday they can but Boris has made up his mind and is not for turning IMO. That's why the odds on Cummings going with Ladbrokes have drifted.
When most Tory MPs want Cummings out, most voters want Cummings out and the Tories poll lead has plunged almost 10% overnight this is not over
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
You are kind of betting on whether Cummings stays. If he does, a Labour lead at some point would seem inevitable.
Not so sure otherwise, especially if Boris were to move quickly and decisively against Pinnochio.
I'm not sure why Boris showing weakness and giving Starmer a scalp prevents Starmer from getting a lead?
Red Ed had managed multiple poll leads after the same time leading the party as Starmer has had. With another 7 months to go it'd be truly remarkable for Labour not getting a lead at some point.
@Philip_Thompson, you are making the mistake of thinking it is a victory for Cummings to remain in post. It isn't. @MaxPB is absolutely right that projecting "one rule for you lot, another for us" is the wrong message.
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
I wonder if Starmer is hoping they keep Cummings? He will be a permanent reminder that the New Elite are the same as the Old Elite.
You are kind of betting on whether Cummings stays. If he does, a Labour lead at some point would seem inevitable.
Not so sure otherwise, especially if Boris were to move quickly and decisively against Pinnochio.
I'm not sure why Boris showing weakness and giving Starmer a scalp prevents Starmer from getting a lead?
Red Ed had managed multiple poll leads after the same time leading the party as Starmer has had. With another 7 months to go it'd be truly remarkable for Labour not getting a lead at some point.
@Philip_Thompson, you are making the mistake of thinking it is a victory for Cummings to remain in post. It isn't. @MaxPB is absolutely right that projecting "one rule for you lot, another for us" is the wrong message.
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
I agree the way it was managed initially was screwed up. I criticised Boris for clearing Cummings without a detailed explanation and said he should have kicked it into the grass with an independent investigation . . . . not because I thought it needed one, but for the optics.
But I think Cummings done nothing wrong and think he thought and still thinks he's done nothing wrong. I think too much honesty has been the problem. I think the explanation on Sunday was eminently reasonable and listening to him speak about the harrassment of his home just after people were gleefully sharing videos of Led By Donkeys etc outside his home was ironic.
I think there's been legitimate criticism, but also a baying mob and giving in to them is not the right thing.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
I'm serious. More people in Britain will have an opinion on Cummings's actions than on any other political story from the last twenty years, possibly even longer. The ubiquity of the implications of COVID-19 are just massive. I'm struggling to think of anything that has had a greater impact on people's lives since WW2.
9 points in a week but nothing to see here say PB Tories
Tories still ahead and main movement from the LDs and Greens to Labour since 2019 it seems but if the lead slips further than it will be of greater concern
Have we uncovered the real reason for Dom’s dash to Barnard Castle which yesterday’s utter crock of horseshit explanation was intended to cover up?
It was his wife's birthday.
Yes. So why did he not give the obvious human explanation - that he wanted to give his wife a treat on her birthday after her illness? It might have been a breach but it would have been explicable, shown him as kind (a word incidentally used by the fragrant Mary in her now notorious Spectator article) and most people would have been sympathetic.
There is a reason why he did not and I am curious as to what it might be.
It could be that both he and Boris and whoever helped draft/review his statement are all so stupid that they did see this. But that too seems odd.
May 28th 2019 Tories poll 18% with Yougov May 26th 2020 Tories poll 44% with Yougov and have an 80 seat majority
Apparently the latter is an unmitigated disaster. There are some smart people on this website but they do lack a sense of perspective. The PM remains in a very strong position, true Tory voters will know that in the history of the Conservative party this is a storm in a teacup and not as Stark Dawning suggests 'the story of the century'.
Starmer has very wisely stayed out of this to the larger extent. The Blue on Blue attacks on this very board show that the worst thing for him to do would be to stick his oar in and give them a reason to unite against the common enemy.
I’d like to report that my public law exam went very well! Easiest one yet. Only one more to go now: tort law on Friday.
Sounds good! By sheer coincidence I had reason to look up Wednesbury today for the first time in 20 years. Basic stuff but I was trying to draw a distinction between some employment and public law tests.
Wasn’t there a direct comparison of the two in one of the cases? Clark v Nomura rings a bell.
Despite the increasing clamour for his removal, there has been little change in the betting odds today as regards Dominic Cummings being in or out of his current position in five days' time on 1 June 2020. Betfair Sportsbook goes: Still in position ..... 2/5 Gone .......... 7/4
He won’t go. The hole is too deep to climb out of now. The damage is done.
Anyone who thinks if Cummings goes this will draw a line in the sand is a naive fool.
There'd be blood in the water and the sharks will keep looking for anyone who's done the slightest transgression to be snitched on and ousted.
Evidence? Did Professor Ferguson's resignation lead to a feeding frenzy? The point about Cummings is not that he broke the rules but that he broke the rules he himself set and that caused considerable hardship to the public.
He's then rubbed salt in the wound with explanations that are incredible and almost bizarre rather than simply apologise for a lapse in judgement.
Prof Ferguson wasn't the victim of a partisan witch hunt. But yes, this has followed that.
If Cummings goes anyone else who's done anything the slightest bit wrong will be lined up next. The Mirror etc will already be looking for others if they can find them.
Could be why Starmer is being quiet now. If he knows stuff about his own side he might think it best not to make too much noise now that can be turned around when the tables turn.
Have you considered Breitbart?
Philip is showing worrying signs of being the new Plato
Feels like most PB Tories have realised Dom has to go.
Tories shouldn't panic at losing unreasonably massive polling leads. But whether its temporary or not, that it is happening, suddenly, as a result of Dom personally, raises huge questions among the loyal about it being worth keeping him I would have thought, even if no wrong was done. I'd think most advisers know when to take one for the team and that there are times when it's part of the job.
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Feels like most PB Tories have realised Dom has to go.
I think he should have stood down on Friday and taken a junior role. Now I think he should stay, more damage would be done by a Boris U turn than by sticking to his guns and the value of Dom staying is worth more than a drop of a few polling points when there is so much for the government to do in the next 5 years.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
Forget 9/11. Forget the Iraq War. Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons. Forget terror attacks in London Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc Forget austerity Forget the EU referendum. Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more. Forget Grenfell Tower Forget the Brexit divisions. Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
We bring to you . . . man got in a car and drove.
And how many of those directly and massively impacted the lives of everyone in the country for months on end? None is the answer.
Damning for the Government. Labour is coming back and this is Johnson's Black Wednesday
It speaks to the common sense of people and Cummings has to go and the 1922 can start inviting letters as far as I am concerned
Wow. You have turned and no mistake. I did not see that coming. Perhaps my antenna needs a re-tune.
Much as I disagree with Big_G on a number of issues, I have to say that when he changes his view on something it often seems to be the case that a large swathe of the country has reached a similar view.
I have an instinct and I concemned Boris when he made the idiotic endorsement of Cummings. It is clear Cummings and Boris have lost their moral compass
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
It's a 9 point loss in one week. That is a huge change. You are right that it is still a Tory lead, but for how long?
What, we're going to fall to minus 10 over what is essentially a national outburst of frustration over lockdown that has been displaced onto Cummings? Minus 20? The Mail polling looks like the nadir of this episode - from now on as we come out of lockdown there will be a correction as the red mist lifts and people see the reality of their lives improving.
Would I have chosen this as the government's PR centrepiece of the summer? Nope. Now that's we're here, do we need to show strength and not reward the media for their rabid behaviour? Absolutely.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
I'm serious. More people in Britain will have an opinion on Cummings's actions than on any other political story from the last twenty years, possibly even longer. The ubiquity of the implications of COVID-19 are just massive. I'm struggling to think of anything that has had a greater impact on people's lives since WW2.
It's not even the biggest story this year. That would be Covid. If you think it's a bigger story than Trump, Brexit, Diana, Iraq, Grenfell, 7/7, the financial crash, 9/11, the tsunami, Paris attacks or the London riots I politely suggest you take a break from Twitter.
9 points in a week but nothing to see here say PB Tories
Tories still ahead and main movement from the LDs and Greens to Labour since 2019 it seems but if the lead slips further than it will be of greater concern
PB Tories insist, there is nothing to be seen here
You really are being silly. Plenty of us do and are venement in our condemnation
For your information I am still a PB tory if you want labels
A telling post. You are correct this transcends party and Brexit affiliation. The fact is the whole country has (to a very large extent) been complying with what they have been asked to do and more. The perception that someone I’m government has not offends such people regardless of political view.
I also suspect this will show up BJ’s lack of an actual network in the Commons - something that didn’t matter at the height of his popularity. But I’m clearly not the man to come to for any sort of insider knowledge of such matters.
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Any answer on why venues with outside space can’t open at the same time as open air markets and ahead of indoor shops?
Anything to stop them asking Cummings about his fucking eyesight test method and his blog revising and his 4 1/2 hour drive without a toilet break and the lack of a single person to help with childcare in a city of eight million where your wife works for a leading magazine and the child care regulations that were revised the day the Guardian phoned and the blue bell wood and the phone call from the father and... etc etc etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we aren't announcing a UK manned mission to Mars by Friday.
Yes, that's...strange. Surrey is one of the 11 pilot areas for track and trace. Borough councils are supposed to help, and we have just been contacted. We're supposed to be operational the day after tomorrow?? This is like that "Go back to work tomorrow morning" thing.
BoZo did rather unwisely commit to Track and Trace being in place and "world leading" by Monday.
Yep. Seems set up to fail once again. Starmer is beginning to grow on me a little. He is clever enough to not interrupt an enemy making a mistake. At present that means keeping fairly quiet and letting the Tories stew.
Tis a pity though. Track and Trace could have been quite a step forward if Isolation wasn't a laughing stock.
You give me the opportunity to repeat one of my all time favorite quotes from the late Soviet Chess Grandmaster, David Bronstein.
'Never refute a blunder, because it will always be followed by an even worse move!'
Nite nite everybody. Wonder what will be in the papers tomorrow?
MaxPB is right rather than TSE. This is the Dementia Tax rather than Brown's fluffed Election.
What has happened feels morally wrong to a lot of people, it's not a political failure per se. The dementia tax felt immoral - punishing the old and sad, and their children. No matter how it was framed.
I said this news story was driven by vengeful Remainers, at first, and of course it was: but boy have they managed to make it stick. Because it does play to the Evil Rich Tories stereotype.
WTF do they do now? Their only hope is that Yes it is a Dementia Tax, BUT that was terrible during an election, and they are four years before an election. But it looks to me like Boris and Dom are fatally damaged. Both will go before the next GE, Dom quite soon, Boris after Brexit in the end of 2020.
That is, unless we have a terrible second wave, a la Spanish Flu. Who the F knows what happens then. National Government? Fascist takeover?
Blimey, you've changed your tune.
Wasn't it only yesterday you were saying 'The Sun swings back... This is over'?
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
Forget 9/11. Forget the Iraq War. Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons. Forget terror attacks in London Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc Forget austerity Forget the EU referendum. Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more. Forget Grenfell Tower Forget the Brexit divisions. Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
We bring to you . . . man got in a car and drove.
And how many of those directly and massively impacted the lives of everyone in the country for months on end? None is the answer.
I think you're joking but I cannot tell. You really think opinions are stronger and more entrenched than Brexit? I bet 20% of the country aren't even sure who Cummings is. Everyone knows about Brexit. I would love to see 30million plus turnout for a referendum on Cummings!!!!
If a 6-point Tory lead at the apex of the outrage is the best Labour can do with the entire media pulling for them, then toughing it out will work just fine.
Those who lack courage and imagination are welcome to disagree. As as those who think there's a general election next week, rather than in 2024.
2 wheels on your wagon ... and you're still rolling along ...
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. On a site centred on informed analysis & judgment it'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
Forget 9/11. Forget the Iraq War. Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons. Forget terror attacks in London Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc Forget austerity Forget the EU referendum. Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more. Forget Grenfell Tower Forget the Brexit divisions. Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
We bring to you . . . man got in a car and drove.
And how many of those directly and massively impacted the lives of everyone in the country for months on end? None is the answer.
I think you're joking but I cannot tell. You really think opinions are stronger and more entrenched than Brexit? I bet 20% of the country aren't even sure who Cummings is. Everyone knows about Brexit. I would love to see 30million plus turnout for a referendum on Cummings!!!!
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Agreed. I managed to draft a reasonably detailed document this morning, nothing spectacular, but was (metaphorically) patting myself on the back all day. In the office it would have been NBD
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
Well put.
Terribly put. Makes zero sense unless you're talking about Corona in general rather than any related story. I presume Neil Fergus ons affair must be in the top 5 stories of the century in that case. It affects everyone and was a headline in all the papers...
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
Forget 9/11. Forget the Iraq War. Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons. Forget terror attacks in London Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc Forget austerity Forget the EU referendum. Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more. Forget Grenfell Tower Forget the Brexit divisions. Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
We bring to you . . . man got in a car and drove.
And how many of those directly and massively impacted the lives of everyone in the country for months on end? None is the answer.
I think you're joking but I cannot tell. You really think opinions are stronger and more entrenched than Brexit? I bet 20% of the country aren't even sure who Cummings is. Everyone knows about Brexit. I would love to see 30million plus turnout for a referendum on Cummings!!!!
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Since I’ve retired my concentration has markedly improved. That may not be a particularly practical solution, I accept.
Despite the increasing clamour for his removal, there has been little change in the betting odds today as regards Dominic Cummings being in or out of his current position in five days' time on 1 June 2020. Betfair Sportsbook goes: Still in position ..... 2/5 Gone .......... 7/4
He won’t go. The hole is too deep to climb out of now. The damage is done.
Boris and Dom don't really have a good way forward from here.
If Dom goes, Boris looks weak, all the people who have tried to back Dom look stupid and the government loses its organising intelligence. Not good.
But if Dom stays, he will remain the focus of anger from people who have had a rubbish lockdown life and weren't able to evacuate themselves somewhere nicer. Even if the story drifts, that anger isn't going anywhere and needs catharsis. Unfair? Maybe, but if you don't like unfair don't get involved in politics. But the outcome is probably worse. Especially the next time the government needs public co-operation for something disagreeable.
(As an aside, what's the biggest furore like this that someone has survived and thrived afterwards?)
Unfortunately for Boris, his situation is not-have-cake and don't-eat-it.
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Agreed. I managed to draft a reasonably detailed document this morning, nothing spectacular, but was (metaphorically) patting myself on the back all day. In the office it would have been NBD
Ha! I know that feeling. On a good normal day I can knock out 1500-3000 words of reasonably erudite (and vaguely commercial) gobbets (10 books, 150-300 words for each), at the moment I'm chuffed to bits if I manage to get through cataloguing 5 books.
MaxPB is right rather than TSE. This is the Dementia Tax rather than Brown's fluffed Election.
What has happened feels morally wrong to a lot of people, it's not a political failure per se. The dementia tax felt immoral - punishing the old and sad, and their children. No matter how it was framed.
I said this news story was driven by vengeful Remainers, at first, and of course it was: but boy have they managed to make it stick. Because it does play to the Evil Rich Tories stereotype.
WTF do they do now? Their only hope is that Yes it is a Dementia Tax, BUT that was terrible during an election, and they are four years before an election. But it looks to me like Boris and Dom are fatally damaged. Both will go before the next GE, Dom quite soon, Boris after Brexit in the end of 2020.
That is, unless we have a terrible second wave, a la Spanish Flu. Who the F knows what happens then. National Government? Fascist takeover?
Blimey, you've changed your tune.
Wasn't it only yesterday you were saying 'The Sun swings back... This is over'?
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Most of the cabinet seem to be having the same problem tbf.
Anyone who thinks if Cummings goes this will draw a line in the sand is a naive fool.
There'd be blood in the water and the sharks will keep looking for anyone who's done the slightest transgression to be snitched on and ousted.
Evidence? Did Professor Ferguson's resignation lead to a feeding frenzy? The point about Cummings is not that he broke the rules but that he broke the rules he himself set and that caused considerable hardship to the public.
He's then rubbed salt in the wound with explanations that are incredible and almost bizarre rather than simply apologise for a lapse in judgement.
Prof Ferguson wasn't the victim of a partisan witch hunt. But yes, this has followed that.
If Cummings goes anyone else who's done anything the slightest bit wrong will be lined up next. The Mirror etc will already be looking for others if they can find them.
Could be why Starmer is being quiet now. If he knows stuff about his own side he might think it best not to make too much noise now that can be turned around when the tables turn.
Have you considered Breitbart?
Philip is showing worrying signs of being the new Plato
Before my time but heard lots.
Philip is still anti-Trump so right now I think he still passes Go and collects his £200.
You are kind of betting on whether Cummings stays. If he does, a Labour lead at some point would seem inevitable.
Not so sure otherwise, especially if Boris were to move quickly and decisively against Pinnochio.
I'm not sure why Boris showing weakness and giving Starmer a scalp prevents Starmer from getting a lead?
Red Ed had managed multiple poll leads after the same time leading the party as Starmer has had. With another 7 months to go it'd be truly remarkable for Labour not getting a lead at some point.
@Philip_Thompson, you are making the mistake of thinking it is a victory for Cummings to remain in post. It isn't. @MaxPB is absolutely right that projecting "one rule for you lot, another for us" is the wrong message.
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
I wonder if Starmer is hoping they keep Cummings? He will be a permanent reminder that the New Elite are the same as the Old Elite.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
Totally off topic, but I'd be interested to hear if others' concentration span has been totally shot by the pandemic and associated lockdown? I can do physical work like packing, but anything involving more complex thinking - and especially writing - is painfully slow at present. Very unnerving.
Since I’ve retired my concentration has markedly improved. That may not be a particularly practical solution, I accept.
- thats good to hear. The jest apart, it might be something to do with the fact that I don't usually do the physical and admin work, but at the moment I've furloughed my packer and bookkeeper/admin manager...
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
Well put.
Seriously.? The fine for Cummings if the police decided he had broken the lockdown rules was less than £100. And people think it’s a bigger story than 9/11. I’m sure everyone on this site remembers where they were when 9/11 happened. Maybe in 10 years there will be hundreds of videos on the internet of the drive that Cummings took.
Despite the increasing clamour for his removal, there has been little change in the betting odds today as regards Dominic Cummings being in or out of his current position in five days' time on 1 June 2020. Betfair Sportsbook goes: Still in position ..... 2/5 Gone .......... 7/4
He won’t go. The hole is too deep to climb out of now. The damage is done.
Boris and Dom don't really have a good way forward from here.
If Dom goes, Boris looks weak, all the people who have tried to back Dom look stupid and the government loses its organising intelligence. Not good.
But if Dom stays, he will remain the focus of anger from people who have had a rubbish lockdown life and weren't able to evacuate themselves somewhere nicer. Even if the story drifts, that anger isn't going anywhere and needs catharsis. Unfair? Maybe, but if you don't like unfair don't get involved in politics. But the outcome is probably worse. Especially the next time the government needs public co-operation for something disagreeable.
(As an aside, what's the biggest furore like this that someone has survived and thrived afterwards?)
Unfortunately for Boris, his situation is not-have-cake and don't-eat-it.
If Dom stays let him be the lightning rod for anger.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Of the century? OK.
I'm serious. More people in Britain will have an opinion on Cummings's actions than on any other political story from the last twenty years, possibly even longer. The ubiquity of the implications of COVID-19 are just massive. I'm struggling to think of anything that has had a greater impact on people's lives since WW2.
Is this a joke or have you had a stroke?
Brexit is bigger than Cummings. Loads of stories are bigger than Cummings. You read it here first. Unless you somehow think the Cummings story = the Covid 19 global plague, which is like saying the Chamberlain resignation was the same story as World War 2
COVID-19 isn't a political story per se. But Cumming's actions are a political dimension to that narrative, and so far, for the population of the UK, it's the biggest political dimension that narrative has had. I'd also suggest that more people have a strong opinion of Cummings right now than did over EU membership.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
His might not be but mine is. I'm right and you're wrong. Boris is finished.
Aside from any moral considerations, can two definitive lists now be made up? One of PB Tories who are instinctively loyal but recognise that Dom is fucking up the party good and proper and the other one of bubble story, folk have already forgotten about it merchants. It'll be useful for gauging whether to pay any attention to posts from members of these 2 cohorts in the future.
You did say Corbyn would be PM and you popped up every day saying the polls weren't showing the true picture and Jezza would be PM. It was a Tory landslide. Is your judgement of sanity fair?
I got it wrong - and I hold my hands up to that. And I have done so many, many times.
This is massively significant. The Star rarely dabbles in politics because the people who buy it aren't much interested. If it knows that Cummings's antics have cut through to its readership then it will have cut through to everyone. This will probably be the biggest political story of the century.
Everyone has been affected by the coronavirus lockdowns, restrictions and the economic fallout. That is why this story is poisoning the government as we watch.
Well put.
Seriously.? The fine for Cummings if the police decided he had broken the lockdown rules was less than £100. And people think it’s a bigger story than 9/11. I’m sure everyone on this site remembers where they were when 9/11 happened. Maybe in 10 years there will be hundreds of videos on the internet of the drive that Cummings took.
You mean you don't remember when Cummings crashed into the World Trade Centre? Because some people on this thread apparently do
Comments
Those Labour voters switched over, they gave the Tories a chance. I bet a lot switch back
Last Friday, Cummings should have apologised "It was the wrong thing to do, especially given my position with the government." Instead he has refused to apologise and claimed he did nothing wrong.
I don't think breaking lockdown, given his family circumstances, was a resigning affair. But I do think his behaviour since has been utterly appalling. Other people - not in positions of power - have made enormous sacrifices to make sure government guidelines were followed.
This isn't about someone "getting a scalp", it is about doing the right thing. When we treat politics as a competition between two sides we forget that what we're supposed to be doing is the best thing for the country. And the best thing for the country is that people admit when they are wrong.
The aggressive pushback may win you a tiny battle, but it erodes confidence in our government and in our system. The country and our democracy, in a small way, is weakened.
Forget the Iraq War.
Forget 45 minutes, the death of David Kelly and the absence of chemical weapons.
Forget terror attacks in London
Forget the Financial Crisis, Northern Rock etc
Forget austerity
Forget the EU referendum.
Forget terror attacks in Manchester, London and more.
Forget Grenfell Tower
Forget the Brexit divisions.
Forget Trump or anything else that's happened overseas.
We bring to you . . . man got in a car and drove.
All lost in a mad few days
Cummings has to go
Betfair Sportsbook goes:
Still in position ..... 2/5
Gone .......... 7/4
Surely, 1000 miles for 1000 years?
But I think Cummings done nothing wrong and think he thought and still thinks he's done nothing wrong. I think too much honesty has been the problem. I think the explanation on Sunday was eminently reasonable and listening to him speak about the harrassment of his home just after people were gleefully sharing videos of Led By Donkeys etc outside his home was ironic.
I think there's been legitimate criticism, but also a baying mob and giving in to them is not the right thing.
Feels like most PB Tories have realised Dom has to go.
Don't think I've seen your take.
There is a reason why he did not and I am curious as to what it might be.
It could be that both he and Boris and whoever helped draft/review his statement are all so stupid that they did see this. But that too seems odd.
May 26th 2020 Tories poll 44% with Yougov and have an 80 seat majority
Apparently the latter is an unmitigated disaster. There are some smart people on this website but they do lack a sense of perspective. The PM remains in a very strong position, true Tory voters will know that in the history of the Conservative party this is a storm in a teacup and not as Stark Dawning suggests 'the story of the century'.
For your information I am still a PB tory if you want labels
Queen of FBPE tonight.
https://twitter.com/rjmcl/status/1265323575592079360?s=21
I wont speak ill of the dead regarding Ms Plato
The real test - and long term impact for Boris - will be how we get out of this lockdown mess and get the economy and life going again.
Would I have chosen this as the government's PR centrepiece of the summer? Nope. Now that's we're here, do we need to show strength and not reward the media for their rabid behaviour? Absolutely.
Fingers crossed!
I also suspect this will show up BJ’s lack of an actual network in the Commons - something that didn’t matter at the height of his popularity. But I’m clearly not the man to come to for any sort of insider knowledge of such matters.
'Never refute a blunder, because it will always be followed by an even worse move!'
Nite nite everybody. Wonder what will be in the papers tomorrow?
Wasn't it only yesterday you were saying 'The Sun swings back... This is over'?
Four cabinet ministers have told @bbclaurak that Cummings should go, she reports on @BBCNews
I thought it was over, according to Phillip and Brom
Add @Big_G_NorthWales to the sane camp.
If Dom goes, Boris looks weak, all the people who have tried to back Dom look stupid and the government loses its organising intelligence. Not good.
But if Dom stays, he will remain the focus of anger from people who have had a rubbish lockdown life and weren't able to evacuate themselves somewhere nicer. Even if the story drifts, that anger isn't going anywhere and needs catharsis. Unfair? Maybe, but if you don't like unfair don't get involved in politics. But the outcome is probably worse. Especially the next time the government needs public co-operation for something disagreeable.
(As an aside, what's the biggest furore like this that someone has survived and thrived afterwards?)
Unfortunately for Boris, his situation is not-have-cake and don't-eat-it.
Bring back the gladitoral games - or football - to amuse them in their lethargic repast.
Philip is still anti-Trump so right now I think he still passes Go and collects his £200.
Watching him though. Watching him like a hawk.
So take that as you will.
It was an utter shit show that couldn’t get a majority over the transsexual and IRA alliance of Jew haters.
Nor achieve Brexit.
If they want more of that then carry on carping.