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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pandemic costs: Who bears the risk?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited May 2020 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pandemic costs: Who bears the risk?

One of the criticisms of the 2008 bank bailouts was that banks had privatised the profits but nationalised the losses. It wasn’t entirely accurate: shareholders and plenty of bank staff lost money and jobs. Had banks failed, plenty of other businesses would have failed too. But it was broadly true. Those whose key job it was to manage risk failed abysmally, took insane risks, pocketed unjustifiably high rewards which did not accurately reflect the cost of those risks and left others – far less able to bear the burden – to pay for it all, for a decade or more. The resulting sense of unfairness, resentment, of the costs being borne by the “little people”, of the “Too Big to Fail Haves” who were at fault getting away with it has informed politics ever since, in ways largely unanticipated at the time.

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  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    First.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.
  • Options
    AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited May 2020
    Full results of Select Committe Chairs elections held today

    Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Labour, to replace Rachel Reeves)

    Round 1
    Darren Jones 256 votes
    Angela Eagle 174
    Stella Creasy 114

    Round 2
    Jones 296 (+40)
    Eagle 222 (+48)

    Standards (Labour, to replace Kate Green)

    Chris Bryant 332
    Yvonne Fovargue 208
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,328

    Full results of Select Committe Chairs elections held today

    Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Labour, to replace Rachel Reeves)

    Round 1
    Darren Jones 256 votes
    Angela Eagle 174
    Stella Creasy 114

    Round 2
    Jones 296 (+40)
    Eagle 222 (+48)

    Standards (Labour, to replace Kate Green)

    Chris Bryant 332
    Yvonne Fovargue 208

    Chris Bryant on standards.. interesting...
  • Options
    LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 15,072
    I think compensation to businesses that have been destroyed/damaged by the Coronavirus is a good idea, with a view that it gives them a chance to adapt to the changed circumstances, or stop trading and stop blocking the way for new businesses to exploit the new opportunities.

    If there are to be permanent changes then we don't want to sustain zombie companies that are no longer relevant.

    However, I still think that this could just be a temporary interlude while we eliminate the virus, so I think there might be merit in some sort of gift-aid style scheme to support businesses that can't operate at the capacity required to be profitable, so that they might survive until the interregnum ends, but only if they can still compete.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    "We send £350 million a week to the EU.
    Let's spend it on bog roll instead."

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108

    Full results of Select Committe Chairs elections held today

    Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Labour, to replace Rachel Reeves)

    Round 1
    Darren Jones 256 votes
    Angela Eagle 174
    Stella Creasy 114

    Round 2
    Jones 296 (+40)
    Eagle 222 (+48)

    Standards (Labour, to replace Kate Green)

    Chris Bryant 332
    Yvonne Fovargue 208

    Chris Bryant on standards.. interesting...
    He’ll be pants.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578

    Full results of Select Committe Chairs elections held today

    Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Labour, to replace Rachel Reeves)

    Round 1
    Darren Jones 256 votes
    Angela Eagle 174
    Stella Creasy 114

    Round 2
    Jones 296 (+40)
    Eagle 222 (+48)

    Standards (Labour, to replace Kate Green)

    Chris Bryant 332
    Yvonne Fovargue 208

    Chris Bryant on standards.. interesting...
    Oh we make the standards and we make the rules
    And if you don't abide by them you must be a fool
    We have the power to control the whole land
    You never must question our motives or plans -
    cause well outlaw your voices, do anything we want
    we've nothing to fear from the nation
    Well throw you out of your houses if you get too much
    If we have to well destroy your generation
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    Didn't voters reject social care reform in 2017? How much hell will they be willing to pay?
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Evening all :)

    Sunday's speech by Boris is going to be of hug significance but his remarks in the Commons didn't fill me with confidence. As befitting his populist style, he's going to try to have his cake and eat it too as he's more interested in being popular than being right.

    I'll cut him some slack - he may have to say some difficult things to some sectors who might have been hoping for an easing of restrictions but I suspect the undercurrent will be it's everyone's "patriotic duty" to go back to work.

    Well, quite but expecting everyone to head back the day after his tub-thumping speech is a tad unrealistic. Some organisations are ready for a limited return, many aren't or don't know what to do.

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    Easing restrictions on family members will be popular though not wholly risk free and there's plenty of evidence public transport is far from prepared for a mass return - mandatory wearing of masks anyone?

    Today's remarks don't fill me with confidence - marching some sectors up ti the top of the hill and leaving them there isn't what you want. With Sunak pulling the plug on the furlough scheme in July there will be growing and understandable pressure to re-start - perhaps that's the key. The plan is initial carrot followed by later stick.

    Though I thought Antifrank overplayed it a bit last evening the current situation is less VE-Day and more the mood after Alamein - less victory and more perhaps the end of the beginning.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748
    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    Ocado and the supermarket sector have adapted without too much government stuff. Very good that they have done so, and a very interesting thing. Capitalism vs government control - there's a whole new history for people to look at.

    I'd be surprised if any state had done better than the best of our supermarkets. However the fair comparison is against the average of our supermarkets. It'll be closer.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    For those who fancy it, there's a 12-race card at Hanover into which to sink your teeth tomorrow afternoon. It's not on either racing channel so the only way to view it will be via live stream at the Deutscher Galopp website but it's free.

    France kicks off on Monday and the three cards at Longchamp, Toulouse and Compiegne have attracted over 1000 entries. I suspect the BHA will be praying Sunday's speech by Johnson will give them the green light for a resumption. Waht they won't want is ambiguity and confusion.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    I don't think we will but either way social care has been long overdue reforms.

    This isn't some sporting league table and come what may there are clearly lessons to learn - what's gone right and what's gone wrong. Social care needs looking at either way and would have even if we'd never heard of COVID19.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748
    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.



  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Omnium said:

    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.



    You know that on Star Trek anyone who is on the security detail in red dies?
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    I don't think we will but either way social care has been long overdue reforms.

    This isn't some sporting league table and come what may there are clearly lessons to learn - what's gone right and what's gone wrong. Social care needs looking at either way and would have even if we'd never heard of COVID19.
    Given everyone is likely to be exposed to the virus in the end, the league table could well be a reflection of demographics, fitness levels and air quality.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited May 2020
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries as they'll love the premium they get over restraunts, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    I don't think we will but either way social care has been long overdue reforms.

    This isn't some sporting league table and come what may there are clearly lessons to learn - what's gone right and what's gone wrong. Social care needs looking at either way and would have even if we'd never heard of COVID19.
    I agree, but surely now there is no excuse for some kind of cross-party solution that can work long term.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748
    edited May 2020

    Omnium said:

    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.



    You know that on Star Trek anyone who is on the security detail in red dies?
    How many of those six?

    (I do confess though I perhaps missed the humour in the original post.)

  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
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    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,933
    The lockdown has already devastated cashflows. Even with the furlough scheme, businesses have many fixed costs and far less (if any) income coming in.

    Yet if businesses do open up, demand is likely to be low. Partly because people are afraid to go out, partly because they are afraid to spend money.

    That means that when we do re-open, it is incredibly unlikely 100% of those furloughed staff will be needed. Perhaps 70% at best. And I'm guessing a whole lot less, at least for the next few months.

    In one of my whatsapp groups, my friends laughed at me because I'm still working when they are all enjoying a free holiday on £2500 a month.

    So I said, at least it proves my employer knows I'm absolutely necessary to the business. How many of you can say the same? How many of you think you will have jobs to go back to when this ends?

    That shut them up.

    And there is the problem. When we restart the economy, it will be slow. It may take a year or more to return to previous levels of demand.

    Furlough has lulled most people into a false sense of security. Once the rug is pulled out from underneath them, that's when the fun begins.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,938
    Hnnm. Thanks for the header. It's all a bit of a quandary wrapped in an enigma isn't it? I detect a chafing at some of the restrictions. I don't detect a tsunami of desire to get back to work...at least not as before.
    And I cannot see how it can be done for many in cities or large towns right now. I work from a room above the library. There are literally hundreds of visitors every day.
    The government has told us to stay home.
    They can't overnight simply say get back to work. People are anxious.
    And what will be the effect on businesses which 're open to find precious few customers?
    Unfortunately the ones who are out giving and receiving haircuts right now are the ones to be least trusted.
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    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    Didn't voters reject social care reform in 2017? How much hell will they be willing to pay?
    Theresa May u-turned, thus denying voters the chance to vote for or against it, and fatally undermining her "strong and stable" message.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,247
    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    We have had home shopping for 3 years.

    You may be surprised how many of us oldies do to be fair
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    On the easing of lockdown, we have already been advised that our offices will remain closed until the end of May at the earliest.

    We have also had a staff survey of people's attitudes to returning to their office. Or not.

    In my case, not.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,247
    edited May 2020

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    I don't think we will but either way social care has been long overdue reforms.

    This isn't some sporting league table and come what may there are clearly lessons to learn - what's gone right and what's gone wrong. Social care needs looking at either way and would have even if we'd never heard of COVID19.
    I agree, but surely now there is no excuse for some kind of cross-party solution that can work long term.
    I am more hopeful this will be a cross party decision now Starmer leads labour
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    Didn't voters reject social care reform in 2017? How much hell will they be willing to pay?
    Theresa May u-turned, thus denying voters the chance to vote for or against it, and fatally undermining her "strong and stable" message.
    True enough, but even the vague prospect had the electorate reaching for the smelling salts.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,045

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    We were 'protecting the NHS' will be the excuse used from top to bottom.

    And the NHS is a national religion whereas sick oldies consuming hoped for inheritances aren't.

    Brutal ? Yes, but true.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,938
    Omnium said:

    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.



    The All American hero William Shatner is Canadian. Jeri Ryan....oh yes.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234
    OT an old Top Gear review of the Rover P5B as used by Wilson, Heath, Callaghan and Thatcher. One sign of how times have changed in the last 20-odd years is Quentin Wilson reading out the Queen's number plate.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qeppOCEvC0
  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited May 2020
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and onto parents, it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,328
    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
    Seems an utter waste of time attending a supermarket if you can order online at the best of times.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2020

    If we turn out (in the end) to have the largest deaths in europe thanks to the national disgrace that is social care and the care/NHS interface, then there will be hell to pay come the public inquiry.

    I fear that any criticism of PHE, NHS, social care systems and suggestion for reform will be verboten.

    You only have to look at the "we aren't testing enough, we need to be like Germany"...PHE says no for 2-3 weeks...then finally we copy Germany and have a public / private partnership to the problem...and immediately the Guardian goes full government is privatising the NHS.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822


    I don't think we will but either way social care has been long overdue reforms.

    This isn't some sporting league table and come what may there are clearly lessons to learn - what's gone right and what's gone wrong. Social care needs looking at either way and would have even if we'd never heard of COVID19.

    Indeed - searching questions need to be asked about how this care home disaster was allowed to happen and if that leads to Ministerial resignations, so be it. Those ultimately responsible have a duty to explain why they did what they did.

    Whatever the current toll (anywhere between thirty and fifty thousand perhaps) it leaves the residential care sector in a huge mess as you say. Will people be so keen to send their older relatives to such places - will we see a new generation of family housing emerge with self contained accommodation for older relatives? Will we see a cultural shift back to multi-generational households?

    The one area which defies easy answers is dementia care - for those with relatives suffering dementia the last few weeks must have been akin to purgatory but dementia care is as full time as it gets and most families can't deal with it whether on a practical or emotional level.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,045
    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2020
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
    Seems an utter waste of time attending a supermarket if you can order online at the best of times.
    Substitutions is the big annoyance with how supermarkets do home delivery. When I order butter, no margarine isn't acceptable. When I order mixed nuts, I don't want ground almonds.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Anyone hearing about any possible quarantining of arrivals from abroad in the new normal to be announced on Sunday?
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822


    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...

    We did click and collect for the first time yesterday - the shopping was treated like radioactive waste but it was efficiently done and only two substitutions out of 120 items so can't complain.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2020
    TOPPING said:

    Anyone hearing about any possible quarantining of arrivals from abroad in the new normal to be announced on Sunday?

    They better bloody get this sorted. This bollocks about temperature sensors are a bit like handing out a single condom to every Fresher at uni and wonder why you still have an STD problem.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    dixiedean said:

    Omnium said:

    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.



    The All American hero William Shatner is Canadian. Jeri Ryan....oh yes.
    Just to mess with your head.

    https://twitter.com/philperry01/status/1255257291122790403?s=20
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,045
    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
    Seems an utter waste of time attending a supermarket if you can order online at the best of times.
    For some people walking around a supermarket is the best exercise they get.

    Its also quicker and cheaper than shopping online.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,328
    stodge said:


    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...

    We did click and collect for the first time yesterday - the shopping was treated like radioactive waste but it was efficiently done and only two substitutions out of 120 items so can't complain.

    Will we get our fever tree original in tins tho ????
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,848
    Omnium said:

    eek said:
    Well clearly Trump wins then!

    The original Captain Kirk really was an all-American hero, and believably so. I've seen a couple of the recent films and it's just not Captain Kirk, not Spock, nor watchable really.

    However I have also seen 'Picard', and we learn there that Jeri Ryan is really the Queen we want.
    I think you are missing the point that on Star Trek the guys in the red shirts were always the first to die
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

    You really don’t get the human race, do you? Parent + child + danger = protect at all costs. Understood?

    This was to all parents, the PTA is just the conduit. It had been promoted by the DfE for crying it loud. I get that the childless and those without children at home may feel very differently (and polling on this has shown that clearly) but, when it comes down to it, you keep your child safe.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    TGOHF666 said:

    /twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1258115982859685889?s=20

    The original code was “a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade”

    WTF....
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    ukpaul said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

    You really don’t get the human race, do you? Parent + child + danger = protect at all costs. Understood?

    This was to all parents, the PTA is just the conduit. It had been promoted by the DfE for crying it loud. I get that the childless and those without children at home may feel very differently (and polling on this has shown that clearly) but, when it comes down to it, you keep your child safe.

    Do you think the working mums from sink estates run the PTA ?

  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    Full results are out tomorrow. I don’t know what the questions were, maybe they asked.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,045
    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    Indeed.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    David Davis:

    And Mr Davis, 71, tweeted: 'A bigger issue than Professor Ferguson's private life is the accuracy of his model. When applied to the Swedish policy it forecast 40,000 deaths by now, over 15 times the reality.

    'We need the whole model, its assumptions and working in the public domain. We can no longer run our strategy on secret advice and potentially flawed calculations.' (Mail)

    We do. Let's see that 13 year old modelling code.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234
    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    kyf_100 said:

    The lockdown has already devastated cashflows. Even with the furlough scheme, businesses have many fixed costs and far less (if any) income coming in.

    Yet if businesses do open up, demand is likely to be low. Partly because people are afraid to go out, partly because they are afraid to spend money.

    That means that when we do re-open, it is incredibly unlikely 100% of those furloughed staff will be needed. Perhaps 70% at best. And I'm guessing a whole lot less, at least for the next few months.

    In one of my whatsapp groups, my friends laughed at me because I'm still working when they are all enjoying a free holiday on £2500 a month.

    So I said, at least it proves my employer knows I'm absolutely necessary to the business. How many of you can say the same? How many of you think you will have jobs to go back to when this ends?

    That shut them up.

    And there is the problem. When we restart the economy, it will be slow. It may take a year or more to return to previous levels of demand.

    Furlough has lulled most people into a false sense of security. Once the rug is pulled out from underneath them, that's when the fun begins.

    Oh yeah. Middle class supposedly comfortable people trying to claim UC like all those skivers and scroungers they read about in the Daily Mail. Finding that it isn't the dossers cakewalk made out to be...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    eadric said:

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    Why can’t we just use whatever the South Koreans are using? I don’t get it. Theirs is the best and is provably effective. They are super aware of disease after SARS. They are also home to some of the finest tech companies on earth.

    Just buy it off the shelf in Seoul
    That would involve the government knowing your position at all times via GPS.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,045
    eadric said:

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    Why can’t we just use whatever the South Koreans are using? I don’t get it. Theirs is the best and is provably effective. They are super aware of disease after SARS. They are also home to some of the finest tech companies on earth.

    Just buy it off the shelf in Seoul
    Nobody gets paid endless millions to do that.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280
    eadric said:

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    Why can’t we just use whatever the South Koreans are using? I don’t get it. Theirs is the best and is provably effective. They are super aware of disease after SARS. They are also home to some of the finest tech companies on earth.

    Just buy it off the shelf in Seoul
    To paraphrase Max's friend, our app is the sort of app that gives authoritarians like Priti Patel the horn.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    TGOHF666 said:

    /twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1258115982859685889?s=20

    Putting the disaster of the incorrect pseudo random issues, Even more than a shit show than i hypothesed a few weeks ago. Not only no GPU / CUDA, runs single thread...in this day and age is like first year undergrad level programming. There are so many multi-thread libraries that can be used like Intel TBB, it is absolutely basic programming stuff.
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    What is the point of the app? It just sounds like someone in government heard that apps are cool so determined we should have one, without much consideration of what it was supposed to do, let alone how it should do it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    TGOHF666 said:
    The biggest complaint seems to be that supposedly the same initial conditions give different answers. Judging by the shape of the curves, had they run the two simulations for longer they would have ended up with pretty much exactly the same result. The rest of it seems to be concerned with a lack of documentation. Not too surprising if the code was never going to be released publicly.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    I mean I've no idea but weren't schools the very last thing to be closed down? They were happily playing in the playground while @eadric was crapping himself under the kitchen table. How many CV19 deaths of children have there been?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152

    David Davis:

    And Mr Davis, 71, tweeted: 'A bigger issue than Professor Ferguson's private life is the accuracy of his model. When applied to the Swedish policy it forecast 40,000 deaths by now, over 15 times the reality.

    'We need the whole model, its assumptions and working in the public domain. We can no longer run our strategy on secret advice and potentially flawed calculations.' (Mail)

    We do. Let's see that 13 year old modelling code.

    I see I am behind, as it looks like some of the code has been "released"

    "Imperial finally released a derivative of Ferguson’s code. " - Lockdownsceptics
  • Options
    gettingbettergettingbetter Posts: 476
    cyclefree you write really interesting and sensible things. but could you please write a bit more concisely at this difficult time. those of us who are working at home with young children are too exhausted to read all this.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,933

    kyf_100 said:

    The lockdown has already devastated cashflows. Even with the furlough scheme, businesses have many fixed costs and far less (if any) income coming in.

    Yet if businesses do open up, demand is likely to be low. Partly because people are afraid to go out, partly because they are afraid to spend money.

    That means that when we do re-open, it is incredibly unlikely 100% of those furloughed staff will be needed. Perhaps 70% at best. And I'm guessing a whole lot less, at least for the next few months.

    In one of my whatsapp groups, my friends laughed at me because I'm still working when they are all enjoying a free holiday on £2500 a month.

    So I said, at least it proves my employer knows I'm absolutely necessary to the business. How many of you can say the same? How many of you think you will have jobs to go back to when this ends?

    That shut them up.

    And there is the problem. When we restart the economy, it will be slow. It may take a year or more to return to previous levels of demand.

    Furlough has lulled most people into a false sense of security. Once the rug is pulled out from underneath them, that's when the fun begins.

    Oh yeah. Middle class supposedly comfortable people trying to claim UC like all those skivers and scroungers they read about in the Daily Mail. Finding that it isn't the dossers cakewalk made out to be...
    Yep, exactly.

    Most of the people who are about to find out UC is £74 a week probably never thought they were the sort of person who'd be claiming benefits.

    They had all the education, all the skills - transferable skills too - and of course all the contacts. They never expected to be out of work for more than a couple of weeks in their life, if they ever expected it at all.

    A lot of people are about to find out how the other half lives very soon. And it won't be pretty. Or it will be delicious. Depending on your point of view.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    eadric said:

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    Why can’t we just use whatever the South Koreans are using? I don’t get it. Theirs is the best and is provably effective. They are super aware of disease after SARS. They are also home to some of the finest tech companies on earth.

    Just buy it off the shelf in Seoul
    Because their system violating all our privacy laws / would be subject to crazy amount of legal challenges.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    What is the point of the app? It just sounds like someone in government heard that apps are cool so determined we should have one, without much consideration of what it was supposed to do, let alone how it should do it.
    A former Tory MP has reminded me that Matt Hancock created his own app which had a few security concerns.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42902684
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Great article. The government is caught in a policy lobster pot. It is going to struggle to extricate itself.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    The death rate for under 18s is virtually 0 from Covid, unless kids live with grandparents they should be going back to school as German kids are starting to do
  • Options
    DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 24,234

    David Davis:

    And Mr Davis, 71, tweeted: 'A bigger issue than Professor Ferguson's private life is the accuracy of his model. When applied to the Swedish policy it forecast 40,000 deaths by now, over 15 times the reality.

    'We need the whole model, its assumptions and working in the public domain. We can no longer run our strategy on secret advice and potentially flawed calculations.' (Mail)

    We do. Let's see that 13 year old modelling code.

    This is likely to become a bigger issue. I get the impression some of the American tin-foil sites so popular with some journalists are starting to wonder about its influence.
  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    The death rate for under 18s is virtually 0 from Covid, unless kids live with grandparents they should be going back to school as German kids are starting to do
    As I said - there is a strain of ninny fussing parents that are still driving them 400 yards to school aged 15.

  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    edited May 2020
    Block Quote nightmare, will redo....
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,175
    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

    It doesn't matter if its a real or voodoo poll - schools are not reopening. You cannot socially isolate in a school. Phased part time opening in June is being discussed. Parents aren't about to be given the chance to ignore a non-existent back to school order. And with kids not back in school, working parents aren't going back to work...
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Wow! Just wow.

    The entire British economy has been shut down, plus god knows how many deferred operations, cancer scans, GP checks etc etc. for a model that the university will not release.



    "A request for the original code has been made 8 days ago but ignored, it will probably take some kind of legal compulsion to make them release it. Clearly Imperial are too embarrassed by the state of it to ever release it of their own free will, which is unacceptable given it was paid for by the taxpayer and belongs to them."

    https://lockdownsceptics.org/code-review-of-fergusons-model/
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    The death rate for under 18s is virtually 0 from Covid, unless kids live with grandparents they should be going back to school as German kids are starting to do
    German kids walk home by themselves from School at a far younger age than in the UK and a lot of parents in the UK require grandparents to do working hour childcare duties.

    Once again 20 seconds of research shows it's not as easy as the armchair generals are make things out to be.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    My question about Ferguson model. This is thus guys area of expertise, hiw the hell do you go 13 years never improving it / modernizing it. In my time in academia, if nothing else that is what you found some grant money to get post-grads / post-docs to do.

    Also, it isnt like he hasnt had use for it. He has been called to employ it several tines over the years.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited May 2020
    ukpaul said:

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    Isn’t the law something like 12+? G
    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

    You really don’t get the human race, do you? Parent + child + danger = protect at all costs. Understood?

    This was to all parents, the PTA is just the conduit. It had been promoted by the DfE for crying it loud. I get that the childless and those without children at home may feel very differently (and polling on this has shown that clearly) but, when it comes down to it, you keep your child safe.

    Do you think the working mums from sink estates run the PTA ?

    You don’t understand who was asked (or, plausibly, the whole of the 21st century). All parents were asked not just PTAs, they are just the conduit.
    The link to the questionnaire was put on my local help group. Available therefore theoretically to everyone whether or not they had children (I didn't look to see whether it said you had to have them) but in actual fact likely to be completed by socially and politically engaged, perhaps from a particular demographic, whatever that means for the survey results.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    The lockdown has already devastated cashflows. Even with the furlough scheme, businesses have many fixed costs and far less (if any) income coming in.

    Yet if businesses do open up, demand is likely to be low. Partly because people are afraid to go out, partly because they are afraid to spend money.

    That means that when we do re-open, it is incredibly unlikely 100% of those furloughed staff will be needed. Perhaps 70% at best. And I'm guessing a whole lot less, at least for the next few months.

    In one of my whatsapp groups, my friends laughed at me because I'm still working when they are all enjoying a free holiday on £2500 a month.

    So I said, at least it proves my employer knows I'm absolutely necessary to the business. How many of you can say the same? How many of you think you will have jobs to go back to when this ends?

    That shut them up.

    And there is the problem. When we restart the economy, it will be slow. It may take a year or more to return to previous levels of demand.

    Furlough has lulled most people into a false sense of security. Once the rug is pulled out from underneath them, that's when the fun begins.

    Oh yeah. Middle class supposedly comfortable people trying to claim UC like all those skivers and scroungers they read about in the Daily Mail. Finding that it isn't the dossers cakewalk made out to be...
    Yep, exactly.

    Most of the people who are about to find out UC is £74 a week probably never thought they were the sort of person who'd be claiming benefits.

    They had all the education, all the skills - transferable skills too - and of course all the contacts. They never expected to be out of work for more than a couple of weeks in their life, if they ever expected it at all.

    A lot of people are about to find out how the other half lives very soon. And it won't be pretty. Or it will be delicious. Depending on your point of view.
    A lot of people won't qualify for the £74 a week as their partner will be earning just enough for them not to qualify.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
    Seems an utter waste of time attending a supermarket if you can order online at the best of times.
    For some people walking around a supermarket is the best exercise they get.

    Its also quicker and cheaper than shopping online.
    Quicker and cheaper?

    I've been online shopping for groceries for years. Its far quicker and cheaper. Can do the order at home on the sofa while watching a TV show and when the groceries arrives its quicker to bring inside than even unloading the car would have been.

    As for cost its cheaper I've found. We paid until this pandemic a delivery pass subscription for Asda that cost about 50p a week - and the online prices and offers match the in store ones. For 50p per week I don't need to drive to the supermarket, don't need to spend time shopping and most importantly don't need to drag children around the supermarket saying "I want this, I want that" so we don't end up with toys or sweets that weren't on the shopping list in the basket.

    Far cheaper and far more convenient getting it delivered for me at least. We've cancelled our delivery pass for now though as its more important that those who need delivery slots more can get them.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,134

    TGOHF666 said:

    /twitter.com/AlexBerenson/status/1258115982859685889?s=20

    The original code was “a single 15,000 line file that had been worked on for a decade”

    WTF....
    "Conclusions. All papers based on this code should be retracted immediately. Imperial’s modelling efforts should be reset with a new team that isn’t under Professor Ferguson, and which has a commitment to replicable results with published code from day one. "

  • Options
    TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052

    My question about Ferguson model. This is thus guys area of expertise, hiw the hell do you go 13 years never improving it / modernizing it. In my time in academia, if nothing else that is what you found some grant money to get post-grads / post-docs to do.

    Also, it isnt like he hasnt had use for it. He has been called to employ it several tines over the years.

    Lack of budget ? Access to a decent coder that isn't a 19 yo Biology student ?

    Wait until you see the global warming models..
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,280

    My question about Ferguson model. This is thus guys area of expertise, hiw the hell do you go 13 years never improving it / modernizing it. In my time in academia, if nothing else that is what you found some grant money to get post-grads / post-docs to do.

    Also, it isnt like he hasnt had use for it. He has been called to employ it several tines over the years.

    Imperial really is the Oxford of London.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited May 2020

    TGOHF666 said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    Alistair said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Occado announced a 40% rise in revenue in April, so clearly online delivery firms habe been one of the few businesses to gain from the crisis.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52556012

    Nationally though furlough is likely to continue for some time, even at a reduced rate as the Government continues to pursue watered down social democracy

    We have been sourcing meat, fruit, veg and other items via wholesalers who would normally deliver to the restaurant trade but have found a lucrative opening in the home delivery market.

    Our second meat order arrived today - prompt and looks excellent quality. Mostly but not wholly British as well.
    Throw in subscription delivery services and I see the supermarkets losing their high value customers once this is all over.

    The wholesalers will be able to keep home deliveries, their customers will love the price/quality over the supermarkets. They'll never have substitution issues as the wholesalers deal in actual stock and don't have the supermarkets fragile JIT structures.

    The well heeled middle class never need to bother a supermarket again.
    I'd say the elderly didn't previously take up home delivery as shopping filled time in the retirement calendar.

    They may not bother to return.
    I am 66 and i won't be going into a big supermarket anytime soon
    Click and collect or home delivery for us from now on until we feel safe ir have been vaccinated...
    Seems an utter waste of time attending a supermarket if you can order online at the best of times.
    Substitutions is the big annoyance with how supermarkets do home delivery. When I order butter, no margarine isn't acceptable. When I order mixed nuts, I don't want ground almonds.
    This is the thing that will kill the Supermarkets compared to wholesalers and subscriptions.

    It is literally unbelievable that even with a 2 week lead time on my order supermarkets are out of stock of what I ordered.

    A rational person would ask how that is at all possible and how any customer could find that acceptable.

    And the answer is supermarkets operate and hideously complex logistics chain which is simply incapable of holding stock for a future order.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    HYUFD said:


    The death rate for under 18s is virtually 0 from Covid, unless kids live with grandparents they should be going back to school as German kids are starting to do

    Is it their "patriotic duty" or would you support the idea of parents who keep their children at home being prosecuted and fined?
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    My question about Ferguson model. This is thus guys area of expertise, hiw the hell do you go 13 years never improving it / modernizing it. In my time in academia, if nothing else that is what you found some grant money to get post-grads / post-docs to do.

    Also, it isnt like he hasnt had use for it. He has been called to employ it several tines over the years.

    I have code that is 15 years old and just works - I would rewrite things if I needed to but why would you.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    eadric said:

    eadric said:

    About as shocking as finding out that Ed Miliband was only allowed to play the marxist version of monopoly as a kid
    This bit made me think our app will be as useful as a condom with holes in both ends.

    One person familiar with the NHS testing process said that its app was able to work in the background in most cases, except when two iPhones were locked and left unused for around 30 minutes, without any Android devices coming within 60m of the devices. Bringing an Android device running the NHS app close to the iPhone would “wake up” its Bluetooth connection, this person said. 

    Switching to Google and Apple’s contact technology would avoid such issues but likely mean the UK had to abandon its centralised database, which representatives of the two tech companies have indicated is incompatible with their “decentralised” approach.
    Why can’t we just use whatever the South Koreans are using? I don’t get it. Theirs is the best and is provably effective. They are super aware of disease after SARS. They are also home to some of the finest tech companies on earth.

    Just buy it off the shelf in Seoul
    Because their system violating all our privacy laws / would be subject to crazy amount of legal challenges.
    Well fuck that, to be frank. I’m a mild libertarian but if the price of saving the economy is the government knowing where I am drinking every night, for a couple of years, so be it

    I imagine most Britons feel the same. I want to live in South Korea. End the virus.
    Even the UK approach of tying one hand behind its back in terms of privacy it too much for many. The legal challenges are incoming.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    eadric said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    I mean I've no idea but weren't schools the very last thing to be closed down? They were happily playing in the playground while @eadric was crapping himself under the kitchen table. How many CV19 deaths of children have there been?
    I worked out today that my abject panic over coronavirus has led to me being trapped in a luxury flat with maybe 80 bottles of Gran Reserva Rioja along with a beautiful young woman who loves being naked
    Penarth is missing you (all).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,108
    eadric said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    So what do those parents want to do instead ?
    If your children are at home you can't go to work, hence your furlough / wfh may continue.
    It could also be that some parents are fond of their children and do not want them to die from exotic bat viruses; unlikely after being locked down wiv da kids for three weeks but not impossible.
    I mean I've no idea but weren't schools the very last thing to be closed down? They were happily playing in the playground while @eadric was crapping himself under the kitchen table. How many CV19 deaths of children have there been?
    I worked out today that my abject panic over coronavirus has led to me being trapped in a luxury flat with maybe 80 bottles of Gran Reserva Rioja along with a beautiful young woman who loves being naked
    I’m sure it’s a disappointment that she loves Being Naked rather than you. Or is that your next avatar?
  • Options
    ukpaulukpaul Posts: 649
    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    TGOHF666 said:

    ukpaul said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Snip

    If you want your Big Mac fix and don't mind queuing half the night for the privilege so be it but will parents be more interested in the health of their children (and themselves) than in doing their patriotic duty? It may well be given how subservient we were going into lockdown, Johnson and Cummings think we will be equally subservient coming out of it - we'll see.

    What was the Parent Teachers Association group for the UK (now called Parentkind) had a survey out to all PTA’s and it had been promoted by the DfE. Results published fully tomorrow but, as per the BBC news, out of a quarter of a million responses 90% of parents would not be happy sending their children to school after lockdown ends. I’ve kept saying this and maybe it might get through now, government can’t afford to announce something that will be so comprehensively ignored. The lack of trust that stems from the late lockdown and the attempt at vaccine free herd immunity is palpable.
    Voodoo poll. The pointy elbowed helicopter mums dominate every class parent group , PTA and governors associations.

    You really don’t get the human race, do you? Parent + child + danger = protect at all costs. Understood?

    This was to all parents, the PTA is just the conduit. It had been promoted by the DfE for crying it loud. I get that the childless and those without children at home may feel very differently (and polling on this has shown that clearly) but, when it comes down to it, you keep your child safe.

    Do you think the working mums from sink estates run the PTA ?

    You don’t understand who was asked (and, plausibly, the whole of the 21st century). This was for all parents.

    Anyway, the sink estate kids are left at home to do what they want anyway, that’s the way the working class roll (I should know, that was me as well).
This discussion has been closed.