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China attempted to cover up the initial COVID-19 outbreak.It’s made no effort to identify who ‘patient zero’ was.It’s daily ‘official’ figures leave more questions than answers. pic.twitter.com/WyMkI2Ky9o
Comments
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I think I'd agree with most of that. Good article Mr Meeks.
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When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html0 -
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Good article.
I'd concur that option two is the way to go, but, for myself, I'm afraid I'd add a biggish touch of universal misanthropy to it. It seems that tribalism may be our Waterloo.0 -
yeah, the false dilemma at the end jumps out. Very clunkily done.eadric said:Nicely written but oddly piffling. Completely ignores the fact China is actively using the virus to undermine the West. Bizarre.
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Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but it's weird to want to do it over something the Chinese already want to fix, and a time when most of western civilization is shutting down its means of production and China is starting theirs back up.
However there's another angle to this, which is that like alcohol China didn't just produce the problem, it also produced the solution. A few months ago we were looking at footage of the empty streets of Wuhan and talking their lockdown as this epic monstrous alien authoritarian Chinese thing, and yet here we are. The west has been used to being the leader, if not in raw wealth, of the world's governance and social ideas, and I think this is the first time in a long time that the leadership has been going in the opposite direction. It might be worth thinking about what other epic monstrous alien authoritarian Chinese things might go down better with western voters than we used to think.1 -
I don't remember you advocating a boycott of China over the Uighur genocide, but I admit I don't follow all the threads.eadric said:
“There’s a lot that justifies a boycott of Nazi Germany (not least the Jewish genocide) BUT...”0 -
There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.1 -
Here's one more: There's a particular kind of right-wing bullshitter who affect to be deeply concerned about issues like human rights and genocide, but only when it coincides with one of their unrelated hobby-horses, the rest of the time they care more about trade or nationalist realpolitik.eadric said:
Indeed you did it twice, in successionedmundintokyo said:
I don't remember you advocating a boycott of China over the Uighur genocide, but I admit I don't follow all the threads.eadric said:
“There’s a lot that justifies a boycott of Nazi Germany (not least the Jewish genocide) BUT...”
‘genocide, but’5 -
Have they fixed the wet markets?edmundintokyo said:Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but it's weird to want to do it over something the Chinese already want to fix
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Following a recent pb header, HMG has appointed the former Head of Olympics Deliverance as its PPE tsar, complete with wartime analogy.
Just as Lord Beaverbrook spearheaded the wartime efforts on aircraft production, the appointment of Lord Deighton will bring renewed drive and focus to coordinate this unprecedented peacetime challenge.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/olympics-chief-brought-in-to-boost-ppe-production
ETA https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/12/the-government-needs-to-sort-out-the-ppe-issues-or-it-will-be-seen-as-wilfully-incompetent-or-worse/0 -
"it turns out that this is another area where profits are privatised and risks are socialised."
I think this is the crux of the matter. BTW I am not seeing Sinophobia now any more than I saw much Francophobia in Brexit.
However one thing we can all (right and left) demand of governments is that they do some long-term strategic thinking, and then put their finger on the scales of the free market where that is justified.0 -
China is a very risky place to get stuff made. Lying and cutting corners are part and parcel of business relationships with firms. This used to be offset by cheap labour but those days are gone.
Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing.1 -
Can you suggest an alternative construction?eadric said:Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but
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I expect you are half right.TGOHF666 said:China is a very risky place to get stuff made. Lying and cutting corners are part and parcel of business relationships with firms. This used to be offset by cheap labour but those days are gone.
Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing.0 -
I think you have already answered that with you Uighur comment. How many in the west secretly admire the Chinese for their tough line on Muslims making trouble?edmundintokyo said:It might be worth thinking about what other epic monstrous alien authoritarian Chinese things might go down better with western voters than we used to think.
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Much of 2 involves onshoring critical supply chains and so forth. Our national resilience is piss poor and needs addressing urgently.1
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"Head of Olympics Deliverance"DecrepiterJohnL said:Following a recent pb header, HMG has appointed the former Head of Olympics Deliverance as its PPE tsar, complete with wartime analogy.
Just as Lord Beaverbrook spearheaded the wartime efforts on aircraft production, the appointment of Lord Deighton will bring renewed drive and focus to coordinate this unprecedented peacetime challenge.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/olympics-chief-brought-in-to-boost-ppe-production
ETA https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/04/12/the-government-needs-to-sort-out-the-ppe-issues-or-it-will-be-seen-as-wilfully-incompetent-or-worse/
Cue the duelling banjos.....0 -
I doubt all that many are aware of what's happening there. I find it hard to get too worked up about all the bad things in the world. I remember finding it curious that the F1 world was agonising over Bahrain when they didn't think twice about going to China. I was thoroughly appalled by Arsenal having a go at Mesut Ozil for bringing up the plight of the Uighurs.Socky said:
I think you have already answered that with you Uighur comment. How many in the west secretly admire the Chinese for their tough line on Muslims making trouble?edmundintokyo said:It might be worth thinking about what other epic monstrous alien authoritarian Chinese things might go down better with western voters than we used to think.
I suspect there are some books on this, but I've always wondered how the world would have reacted to Nazi Germany perpetrating the Holocaust, without invading their neighbours.0 -
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.
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Even though there was a comma?eadric said:
I just wouldn’t put the word ‘but’ after the word ‘genocide’ when attempting an excuseOldKingCole said:
Can you suggest an alternative construction?eadric said:Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but
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One thing the govt should make explicitly clear, just in case it isn't ready is that flying abroad is at your own risk for a couple of years.0
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Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.1 -
For years I've advocated on pb we follow the American example of using national security to protect our industries. Just yesterday I complained we were handing personal data to the USA and Cabinet meetings (via Zoom) to China. So yes, I am all in favour of HMG's thumb on the scales but let's wait and see if anything substantial materialises once this crisis is over.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:
I expect you are half right.TGOHF666 said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.0 -
Outside Germany, Italy has by far the most manufacturing in Europe. It doesn't seem to have done their population much good.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.1 -
Since empty threats on the internet is going to be the extent of *action* against China that the right-wing bullshitters will get, it would be generous to let them rant away to their wee hearts' content. I'd like to think that it would get it out of their system but it's probably going to be a permanent addition to their stable of hobby horses.edmundintokyo said:
Here's one more: There's a particular kind of right-wing bullshitter who affect to be deeply concerned about issues like human rights and genocide, but only when it coincides with one of their unrelated hobby-horses, the rest of the time they care more about trade or nationalist realpolitik.eadric said:
Indeed you did it twice, in successionedmundintokyo said:
I don't remember you advocating a boycott of China over the Uighur genocide, but I admit I don't follow all the threads.eadric said:
“There’s a lot that justifies a boycott of Nazi Germany (not least the Jewish genocide) BUT...”
‘genocide, but’0 -
The world's governemnts will quietly, without fuss or announcement, start implementing a policy of "Buy China last". That will leave plenty of opportunities.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.1 -
The problem is that taking manufacturing "in-house" doesn't make us less dependent on other nations.Pulpstar said:Much of 2 involves onshoring critical supply chains and so forth. Our national resilience is piss poor and needs addressing urgently.
We have few indigenous raw materials, so all we get is a false sense of security. The cars may be made in the UK, but if we produce no iron ore, nickel, copper, etc., then all we've done is moved the point of pain, while increasing the cost of cars to consumers.1 -
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html1 -
I didn’t write that Robert, please don’t misrepresent me again.rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.0 -
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.2 -
I guess 1933-1939 is a pretty fair guide.tlg86 said:
I doubt all that many are aware of what's happening there. I find it hard to get too worked up about all the bad things in the world. I remember finding it curious that the F1 world was agonising over Bahrain when they didn't think twice about going to China. I was thoroughly appalled by Arsenal having a go at Mesut Ozil for bringing up the plight of the Uighurs.Socky said:
I think you have already answered that with you Uighur comment. How many in the west secretly admire the Chinese for their tough line on Muslims making trouble?edmundintokyo said:It might be worth thinking about what other epic monstrous alien authoritarian Chinese things might go down better with western voters than we used to think.
I suspect there are some books on this, but I've always wondered how the world would have reacted to Nazi Germany perpetrating the Holocaust, without invading their neighbours.
Of course the Holocaust proper was an ideological side effect of Germany invading their near and farther neighbours.0 -
I didn't say you did.tlg86 said:
I didn’t write that Robert, please don’t misrepresent me again.rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.0 -
Surely the "coincidence" that the bat virus lab was built close to where bat viruses are found was planned. In any case, whether you blame the lab or the wet markets, everyone is agreed the virus came from Wuhan.eadric said:
But the virus quite likely came from that Wuhan lab, the coincidence is too much to bearrcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
Best guess: a lab worker sold a bat on the black market0 -
You’ve got up remarkably early for a Sunday morning and have suddenly become the authority on avoiding giving offence on PB?eadric said:
I just wouldn’t put the word ‘but’ after the word ‘genocide’ when attempting an excuseOldKingCole said:
Can you suggest an alternative construction?eadric said:Good piece, there's a lot that justifies a boycott of China (not least the Uighur genocide) but
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2/3rds of Spain live in flats. That's got to have made both the crisis and dealing with the crisis worse than it otherwise would have been.1
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Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
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There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.kjh said:
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html
The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).
I say screw China!
But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).0 -
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
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Or a lab worker had a significant and extended exposure to the virus allowing it the opportunity to infect humanseadric said:
But the virus quite likely came from that Wuhan lab, the coincidence is too much to bearrcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
Best guess: a lab worker sold a bat on the black market0 -
I've mentioned this several times and will continue to do so. The last smallpox death in the UK occurred from a laboratory leak.kjh said:
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html
It's only because we had a vaccine that it didn't become a pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-45101091
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No sign yet. They've just awarded the T31 frigate propulsion system to Germany (Renk, MTU, Man) and the HVAC system to Norway (Novenco).Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.0 -
Thanks for that clarification.tlg86 said:
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
There's often a disconnect between the BBC News website and the news programmes.0 -
The expert analysis suggstes that indeed, the Chinese just discovered Covid-19 rather than created it.rcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
But in a world where one evil totalitarian dictatorship was happy enough to use nerve agents on UK soil, I wouldn't be quite so certain about deliberate release being ruled out.
But a bat from the Wuhan facility sold on the black market looks likeliest. Given that the US had a presence in the Wuhan labs until recently, was that known to be a thing though? Did infected stuff just go walkabout?0 -
Any news on newspaper circulation during Covid - surely not many physical copies being sold these days.tlg86 said:
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
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Virtually no travel Insurance is valid if you travel against FCO advice - even when it’s against “all but essential travel.” Anyone travelling abroad now is almost certainly travelling uninsured.eadric said:
I suspect travel insurers will make that quite plainPulpstar said:One thing the govt should make explicitly clear, just in case it isn't ready is that flying abroad is at your own risk for a couple of years.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52341750Mysticrose said:
Thanks for that clarification.tlg86 said:
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
There's often a disconnect between the BBC News website and the news programmes.0 -
The CIA's "WTF is going on in Wuhan?" Report was November....kamski said:
There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.kjh said:
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html
The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).
I say screw China!
But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).0 -
https://twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1251601198261637120?s=21Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-119753282 -
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Perhaps strangely, high-value defence work is one area I would be happy to outsource. Relying on guaranteed, profitable orders from the MOD helped make our manufacturing companies lazy and complacent.Dura_Ace said:"Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement."
No sign yet. They've just awarded the T31 frigate propulsion system to Germany (Renk, MTU, Man) and the HVAC system to Norway (Novenco).
Having half a dozen companies competing for PPE contracts is something different again.
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It's the Sky News lead headline and so it should be. Not tucked away in the newspaper review section.tlg86 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52341750Mysticrose said:
Thanks for that clarification.tlg86 said:
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
There's often a disconnect between the BBC News website and the news programmes.0 -
Oh for goodness sake I made no comment on whether it came from a lab or not. What I referred to was a picture used as evidence of poor containment that showed no such thing, which is irrisponsible and ignorant scaremongering.Mysticrose said:
I've mentioned this several times and will continue to do so. The last smallpox death in the UK occurred from a laboratory leak.kjh said:
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html
It's only because we had a vaccine that it didn't become a pandemic.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-451010910 -
I wonder who the first political casualty of Wuflu will be? I think we'll shortly have Hancock's testicle shaped head on a platter which will be a laugh.0
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The BBC has a policy of investigating stories themselves before publishing them as their own work. It’s why you quite often see a story on many media outlets and then the BBC report the same thing three days later once they’re satisfied that it is true.Mysticrose said:
It's the Sky News lead headline and so it should be. Not tucked away in the newspaper review section.tlg86 said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-52341750Mysticrose said:
Thanks for that clarification.tlg86 said:
It was talked about on BBC News this morning.Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-11975328
There's often a disconnect between the BBC News website and the news programmes.
Sky News on the other hand are happy to report news as news.0 -
All this tin foil deliberate release from the lab stuff is plainly nonsense. Worse, it misses (and distracts from) the point that next time, one of these viruses might well be used as a weapon if and when a totalitarian regime takes a like to British cathedrals.MarqueeMark said:
The expert analysis suggstes that indeed, the Chinese just discovered Covid-19 rather than created it.rcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
But in a world where one evil totalitarian dictatorship was happy enough to use nerve agents on UK soil, I wouldn't be quite so certain about deliberate release being ruled out.
But a bat from the Wuhan facility sold on the black market looks likeliest. Given that the US had a presence in the Wuhan labs until recently, was that known to be a thing though? Did infected stuff just go walkabout?0 -
Looks like Hancock is 100% safe then!Dura_Ace said:I wonder who the first political casualty of Wuflu will be? I think we'll shortly have Hancock's testicle shaped head on a platter which will be a laugh.
0 -
This article is mostly a predictable hash of apologism for the actions and behaviour of the Chinese state and whataboutism, together with some self-hatred of Britain.
That said there is scope for agreement on one point: China putting its own house in order.
The concern is that it will (as most authoritarian states do) be more interested in smoke and mirrors and blaming others than actually making any meaningful changes.
The virus is a wake-up call that China needs to move to an open and transparent government accountable to its people and thus acting more responsibly on the world stage. That means - if we want this to not happen again - that Western policy should shift from being focussed on acquiescence and soft collaboration with the CCP to a goal of encouraging democratic reform.
Economic and political pressure is part of the toolkit.4 -
So, they have never done it - but we must be on our guard for when they do it.DecrepiterJohnL said:
All this tin foil deliberate release from the lab stuff is plainly nonsense. Worse, it misses (and distracts from) the point that next time, one of these viruses might well be used as a weapon if and when a totalitarian regime takes a like to British cathedrals.MarqueeMark said:
The expert analysis suggstes that indeed, the Chinese just discovered Covid-19 rather than created it.rcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
But in a world where one evil totalitarian dictatorship was happy enough to use nerve agents on UK soil, I wouldn't be quite so certain about deliberate release being ruled out.
But a bat from the Wuhan facility sold on the black market looks likeliest. Given that the US had a presence in the Wuhan labs until recently, was that known to be a thing though? Did infected stuff just go walkabout?
Thanks for that contribution.0 -
People looking for things that are absolutely damning finding things that are, er, absolutely damning. I'm shocked.CarlottaVance said:
https://twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1251601198261637120?s=21Mysticrose said:Crikey. The Sunday Times have really raised the stakes. Sky News are leading with it. The BBC, predictably, don't even give it a mention.
This is absolutely damning.
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-missed-a-series-of-opportunities-to-lessen-impact-of-covid-19-119753281 -
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.0 -
Exactly my point. Let's say for the sake of argument these reports actually exist:MarqueeMark said:
The CIA's "WTF is going on in Wuhan?" Report was November....kamski said:
There's obviously a concerted effort going on now to fix the narrative that it's only China to blame, now that there's a risk of people getting angry with western governments.kjh said:
Honestly! This daily mail stuff is ignorant scaremongering. It is a heat insulation seal. It isn't to secure the viruses. A bit of common sense applies after all you break that seal much more spectacularly every time you open the door.HYUFD said:When world leaders from Macron to Trump have criticised the Chinese government response it is clear it is not going to be business as usual with Beijing.
Meanwhile, images of a broken seal on a Wuhan lab refrigerator that kept 1500 virus strains have emerged
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8233185/Shock-photos-inside-Wuhan-lab-stores-1-500-virus-strains.html
The timing of anonymous reports of secret reports from December, the stories planted in tame newspapers and journalists, it's classic stuff. The sudden concern about human rights, and animal rights, in people who previously showed no concern (in many cases more likely to go on bizarre anti vegan and anti ECHR rants).
I say screw China!
But the buck stops at no. 10 (and in the White House for the US).
Why have anonymous sources release this info when it is too late to be useful to the world, but when it is most politically useful to the gangster in the white House?
The significance may not have been clear in November or December, but must have been obvious in January.
The world should also treat the US as a pariah state for not telling what they knew, if we believe the reports.0 -
There we have it: opinions over China are really just being used as another vector to fight domestic political battles and culture wars back here in the UK, and elsewhere in the West.edmundintokyo said:
Here's one more: There's a particular kind of right-wing bullshitter who affect to be deeply concerned about issues like human rights and genocide, but only when it coincides with one of their unrelated hobby-horses, the rest of the time they care more about trade or nationalist realpolitik.eadric said:
Indeed you did it twice, in successionedmundintokyo said:
I don't remember you advocating a boycott of China over the Uighur genocide, but I admit I don't follow all the threads.eadric said:
“There’s a lot that justifies a boycott of Nazi Germany (not least the Jewish genocide) BUT...”
‘genocide, but’
Meanwhile President Xi laughs. He laughs his socks off.0 -
Nice rhetorical flourish, but his point is a fair one.MarqueeMark said:
So, they have never done it - but we must be on our guard for when they do it.
The Tim Harford article I plugged yesterday is worth a read (Google tim harford disaster).0 -
... and yet you're the ones mentioning it.Casino_Royale said:
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.3 -
An excellent article. The Chinese regime is deeply unpleasant. It is oppressive, murderous, deceitful, inefficient and interested only in its own survival - just like dozens of other regimes we happily do business with each and every day. The Saudi Arabian government - which murders journalists, treats women as second class citizens, funds terrorist groups and is in the process of developing a nuclear bomb that will further destabilise an already highly unstable region - is about to buy Newcastle United FC.
We clearly need to be much more circumspect in our dealings with China. It’s not a country to be trusted. But it is not a country we can shun either. Like Saydi Arabia, we need what it offers.0 -
We're pointing out what lies underneath it all.logical_song said:
... and yet you're the ones mentioning it.Casino_Royale said:
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.
It's as obvious as hell, and that's been further reinforced by some podium-star Remainers coming on this thread this morning to shout "right-wing bullshitters" in unison.0 -
+1000logical_song said:
... and yet you're the ones mentioning it.Casino_Royale said:
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.0 -
On the Sunday Times piece, none of it is surprising. Johnson will never change. He’s self-centred, bone idle and doesn’t do detail or scrutiny. Voters know this. Right now they don’t care. They like him. That’s why this story will make no difference to anything. Relentless, forensic opposition is the only option.0
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Hancock's fall from grace clearly demonstrates that Dominic Cummings needs to run the Health SpAds just like he runs the Treasury team. Whether Hancock resigns or swallows this effective demotion depends whether he has the balls of the Saj or Rishi's ambition.Dura_Ace said:I wonder who the first political casualty of Wuflu will be? I think we'll shortly have Hancock's testicle shaped head on a platter which will be a laugh.
Rishi Sunak is the only minister who is a threat to the prime minister, not because he plans a coup but because his popularity means any other plotters don't need Boris to save their seats. It is hard to move the Chancellor now however, even though Boris's entire recent political career is founded on the Stalinist airbrushing of former Chancellors. He has ousted three already.
It would have been Jenrick but he is safe now because to sack him over 3rd-home-gate would put the spotlight on Boris's own household(s).
I can't get worked up about Pritti Patel stumbling over reading a number which was, I suspect, badly formatted in her script.
Some of the scientifically-trained Cabinet ministers might have been expected to be able to read a graph or a table and know what exponential means, so I'd wonder if any ill-advised told-you-so's might arouse Boris's wrath.0 -
On one thing I'm now very clear: there is no authoritarian regime or country however vile or nasty that political opponents here in the UK would ever unite against.
They'd far rather use it to pursue domestic political squabbles. Just as the native Celtic tribes of Britannia did in the face of the Roman Invasion.
Anyone know how that turned out for them?0 -
You would be more convincing if you weren't talking about brexit in response to an article that doesn't contain even the slightest whiff of brexit.Casino_Royale said:
We're pointing out what lies underneath it all.logical_song said:
... and yet you're the ones mentioning it.Casino_Royale said:
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.
It's as obvious as hell, and that's been further reinforced by some podium-star Remainers coming on this thread this morning to shout "right-wing bullshitters" in unison.
Maybe you would stop going on about it if everything Alastair Meeks posts on any subject whatsoever has a disclaimer : "Warning: the author is against Brexit"1 -
Apart from your first, last and second last sentence - I agree with all of that.SouthamObserver said:An excellent article. The Chinese regime is deeply unpleasant. It is oppressive, murderous, deceitful, inefficient and interested only in its own survival - just like dozens of other regimes we happily do business with each and every day. The Saudi Arabian government - which murders journalists, treats women as second class citizens, funds terrorist groups and is in the process of developing a nuclear bomb that will further destabilise an already highly unstable region - is about to buy Newcastle United FC.
We clearly need to be much more circumspect in our dealings with China. It’s not a country to be trusted. But it is not a country we can shun either. Like Saydi Arabia, we need what it offers.0 -
They got better roads, sanitation, etc. ?Casino_Royale said:On one thing I'm now very clear: there is no authoritarian regime or country however vile or nasty that political opponents here in the UK would ever unite against.
They'd far rather use it to pursue domestic political squabbles. Just as the native Celtic tribes of Britannia did in the face of the Roman Invasion.
Anyone know how that turned out for them?0 -
Certain things are probably true. Porton Down will be working on flu, as will installations in China, Russia, America and others. For defensive measures, if nothing else. China will tell you what it wants you to know. Cock-up is far more likely than conspiracy.
If Mr Evil were around, he'd make damn sure they had a vaccine first - so we can assume he isn't. Eating bats and pangolins could have been inadvisable. But rye and peanuts (ergot and aflatoxin) don't have an unblemished record either.0 -
Pulpstar said:
2/3rds of Spain live in flats. That's got to have made both the crisis and dealing with the crisis worse than it otherwise would have been.
The problem with manufacturing is that getting it started and then sustaining it comes with big upfront costs. If the only market is one of 65 million people its tough to recoup those. If we want to get round that we are going to need state subsidies or ownership.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.
0 -
If MPs who were elected in 2017 on a mandate to implement Brexit has done so, the PM wouldn’t be Boris, and wouldn’t have spent the early part of the pandemic trying to get the deal done.1
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-8004067/Killer-coronavirus-NOT-genetically-engineered-Scientist-debunks-conspiracy-claims.htmleadric said:
But the virus quite likely came from that Wuhan lab, the coincidence is too much to bearrcs1000 said:
Of course they are.eadric said:
Well, they are. Aren’t they? Otherwise why have they arrested and kidnapped coronavirus whistleblowers from the start? And why are they still doing so?rcs1000 said:
Brilliant: either the Chinese are lying about the incidence of CV-19 in the rest of the country, or they started it.tlg86 said:There is no evidence that Covid-19 is an intentional attempt by the Chinese to bring the world to a standstill. Indeed, if it were, starting by rocking your own society to its foundations would be a pretty peculiar way of doing so.
Actually, if a country wanted to do something like this, I'd have thought starting it off in its own country would be the perfect way to do it. In fact, the lack of an outbreak in the rest of China is suspicious. If a country wanted to murder millions around the world, why would they be worried about losing a few of their own?
But I don't think the Chinese government is that way inclined. I suspect the real number of deaths in China is well over 100,000.
Either way, they're lying bastards.
They are an evil totalitarian dictatorship with fuck all respect for human rights.
But they didn't create the CV-19 virus and release it into the West as a weapon.
Best guess: a lab worker sold a bat on the black market0 -
Ebola came from West Africa. MERS from the Middle East. Bird Flu from Hong Kong. HIV from Congo. 'Spanish' Flu, as best we can determine, from the USA.SouthamObserver said:An excellent article. The Chinese regime is deeply unpleasant. It is oppressive, murderous, deceitful, inefficient and interested only in its own survival - just like dozens of other regimes we happily do business with each and every day. The Saudi Arabian government - which murders journalists, treats women as second class citizens, funds terrorist groups and is in the process of developing a nuclear bomb that will further destabilise an already highly unstable region - is about to buy Newcastle United FC.
We clearly need to be much more circumspect in our dealings with China. It’s not a country to be trusted. But it is not a country we can shun either. Like Saydi Arabia, we need what it offers.
Whatever the lessons are will be for global application. Seeking to 'blame' the place of origin is just displacement activity for politicians with questionable records themselves, starting with Trump.1 -
I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.SouthamObserver said:On the Sunday Times piece, none of it is surprising. Johnson will never change. He’s self-centred, bone idle and doesn’t do detail or scrutiny. Voters know this. Right now they don’t care. They like him. That’s why this story will make no difference to anything. Relentless, forensic opposition is the only option.
1 -
I'd hazard a guess that the UK has fewer of its population living in blocks of flats than most European nations, and the US fewer still. In the US the real crisis so far is in New York which is almost all high rise. You'd think stemming the spread would be easier for us than almost anywhere?Pulpstar said:2/3rds of Spain live in flats. That's got to have made both the crisis and dealing with the crisis worse than it otherwise would have been.
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Indeed. The kind of myopia that does this site discredit.kamski said:
You would be more convincing if you weren't talking about brexit in response to an article that doesn't contain even the slightest whiff of brexit.Casino_Royale said:
We're pointing out what lies underneath it all.logical_song said:
... and yet you're the ones mentioning it.Casino_Royale said:
Underneath that's exactly what he's thinking.eadric said:This is a load of wank. Sorry. I keep waiting for the bit where Brexit gets the blame, as the heroic Beijing Remainers strive to solve the British bug
Because he's obsessed by Brexit and that's how he thinks.
It's as obvious as hell, and that's been further reinforced by some podium-star Remainers coming on this thread this morning to shout "right-wing bullshitters" in unison.
I really like Boris right now but anyone who defends this Government's handling of this crisis puts themselves in the same nefarious pit as the Chinese Government.0 -
I really don’t see what you object to in the article. China is too important to shun. The one thing Alastair misses, IMO, is that it is also a huge market to sell into. At this time especially that is not something anyone is just going to walk away from. Being less China-dependent is clearly important, but it is a process and will depend on other markets emerging. However, they will also rely to a large extent on strong relationships with the Chinese - just look at places like Brazil, India, Vietnam and the rest of SE Asia.Casino_Royale said:
Apart from your first, last and second last sentence - I agree with all of that.SouthamObserver said:An excellent article. The Chinese regime is deeply unpleasant. It is oppressive, murderous, deceitful, inefficient and interested only in its own survival - just like dozens of othsts, treats women as second class citizens, funds terrorist groups and is in the process of developing a nuclear bomb that will further destabilise an already highly unstable region - is about to buy Newcastle United FC.
We clearly need to be much more circumspect in our dealings with China. It’s not a country to be trusted. But it is not a country we can shun either. Like Saydi Arabia, we need what it offers.
1 -
Newly announced. She’s due in June/July.isam said:
I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.SouthamObserver said:On the Sunday Times piece, none of it is surprising. Johnson will never change. He’s self-centred, bone idle and doesn’t do detail or scrutiny. Voters know this. Right now they don’t care. They like him. That’s why this story will make no difference to anything. Relentless, forensic opposition is the only option.
0 -
"Yet what Johnson rediscovered was a great British liberal tradition of making a lot of noise about science in order to cover up deliberate inaction, in the face of demands for a national and imperial strategy for agriculture and industry.....SouthamObserver said:Pulpstar said:2/3rds of Spain live in flats. That's got to have made both the crisis and dealing with the crisis worse than it otherwise would have been.
The problem with manufacturing is that getting it started and then sustaining it comes with big upfront costs. If the only market is one of 65 million people its tough to recoup those. If we want to get round that we are going to need state subsidies or ownership.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.
One cannot magic an industry out of thin air, whether high end ventilators or batteries, but by referencing innovation one can pretend, for a while. And that is where the politics of Covid-19, and Brexit, are stuck, in cynical fantasies about innovation."
https://www.davidedgerton.org/blog/2020/4/18/the-governments-response-to-covid-19-and-brexit-are-intimately-connectednbsp1 -
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224isam said:I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.
0 -
I don’t think many people are blaming China for being successful in manufacturing. But they are blaming those who let us become dependent on stretched supply chains. The last 5 years in my sector have seen increased onshoring - mainly driven by QC - but also by security of supply and IP.
For tender based good cost has been everything. Going forward governments are going to gave to pay more for these goods if they want security of supply. I think that is a good use of tax payers money.
More importantly the reason why it *should not* be business as usual is that China lied. The issue isn’t where the the virus came from (IMV either natural or an accidental escape, it doesn’t really matter). It isn’t that they failed to control. But they lied to the WHO and they lied to other countries. If they had told the truth then, just possibly, lives would have been saved.
The big change in U.K. policy, for example, was when the Chinese assumptions in the model were based with Italian data. If China had been upfront then appropriate decisions would have been made earlier.
If there are no consequences of lying then there is no incentive to change behaviour2 -
In the long term, the Labour leader engaging with readers of the Mail on Subday may well be of greater political significance than the Sunday Times piece telling us all what we already knew about the PM.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-8233435/When-vulnerable-dignity-deserve-says-SIR-KEIR-STARMER.html0 -
Deleted0
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"Covid-19, and Brexit, are stuck"JonathanD said:
"Yet what Johnson rediscovered was a great British liberal tradition of making a lot of noise about science in order to cover up deliberate inaction, in the face of demands for a national and imperial strategy for agriculture and industry.....SouthamObserver said:Pulpstar said:2/3rds of Spain live in flats. That's got to have made both the crisis and dealing with the crisis worse than it otherwise would have been.
The problem with manufacturing is that getting it started and then sustaining it comes with big upfront costs. If the only market is one of 65 million people its tough to recoup those. If we want to get round that we are going to need state subsidies or ownership.Socky said:
Why don't you see a expansion in UK manufacturing?DecrepiterJohnL said:"Tough times ahead for the Chinese population.
Good times ahead for British manufacturing."
I expect you are half right.
Particularly now, post Brexit, post covid, I can see a lot of future government orders coming with a make-it-here requirement.
One cannot magic an industry out of thin air, whether high end ventilators or batteries, but by referencing innovation one can pretend, for a while. And that is where the politics of Covid-19, and Brexit, are stuck, in cynical fantasies about innovation."
https://www.davidedgerton.org/blog/2020/4/18/the-governments-response-to-covid-19-and-brexit-are-intimately-connectednbsp
At least honest enough not to hide it.....0 -
So what you are saying is that it is Boris fault. He should have voted for May. 🤷♂️isam said:If MPs who were elected in 2017 on a mandate to implement Brexit has done so, the PM wouldn’t be Boris, and wouldn’t have spent the early part of the pandemic trying to get the deal done.
0 -
On a non political note whipping up Sinophobia will have some nasty social effects. My husband is ethnically Chinese (born in Hong Kong) and he got some pretty unpleasant treatment during the China only stage of Corona virus.
Sadly a lot of people aren't knowledgeable enough to know the nuances of being ethnically Chinese and the number of times that my husband has been harangued at social events to justify Chinese government policy despite never having set foot on the mainland is incredible.
Criticising the Chinese government's response to the pandemic is perfectly legitimate as is looking at whether we might want to think the extent to which we've outsourced our production. However talking about leaked viruses without evidence and using terms like Wuflu has real world consequences for innocent people.
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Deleted again while I try to sort out blockquotes.0
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Johnson being Johnson is not a gotcha. Voters knew what he was in December. They didn’t care. I doubt they care now. They like him. The only way to change things is through careful, thought-through, well-argued opposition. The onus is on Labour to provide that.isam said:
I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.SouthamObserver said:On the Sunday Times piece, none of it is surprising. Johnson will never change. He’s self-centred, bone idle and doesn’t do detail or scrutiny. Voters know this. Right now they don’t care. They like him. That’s why this story will make no difference to anything. Relentless, forensic opposition is the only option.
1 -
But you have a diversified supply chain with freely traded commodity marketsrcs1000 said:
The problem is that taking manufacturing "in-house" doesn't make us less dependent on other nations.Pulpstar said:Much of 2 involves onshoring critical supply chains and so forth. Our national resilience is piss poor and needs addressing urgently.
We have few indigenous raw materials, so all we get is a false sense of security. The cars may be made in the UK, but if we produce no iron ore, nickel, copper, etc., then all we've done is moved the point of pain, while increasing the cost of cars to consumers.0 -
At a time where this country needs a great leader, we have Boris Johnson. Sad but true...Scott_xP said:
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1251630747078836224isam said:I guess being PM is more important, but he did have a newly pregnant fiancée at the time I think.
1
