politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Latest England “day of death” data suggests the peak was a wee
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quite. there have been, and still are, monumental screw ups. that happens in a crisis. no one humane wants to bury some poor sod for messing up. but there will have to be a reckoning. some horribly bad decisions have been made top to bottom. we need to face up to these and figure out why they happenedYokes said:
And who's issue is this, the government, who were told they needed tens of thousands of the things at the outset or the civil servants who actually execute it?bigjohnowls said:
You mean the one i posted at 7.08pm?BannedinnParis said:
who didn't?Pulpstar said:
Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.bigjohnowls said:
No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale upMarqueeMark said:
If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"bigjohnowls said:Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
Another waste of time and resource.
Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
likewise that BBC chart
And this is one of many traditional manufacturers suggesting he could ramp up production if asked from weeks ago. 5 LIVE have had several on but you can trawl back as i am too busy making up fake bbc news charts
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ventilators-parts-manufacturer-dyson-airbus-boris-johnson-2518900
Its going to get buried but I have had now three situations pointed out to me over here about how civil service procurement, local govt workers who are important in community effort and operational management have been seriously poor in their flexibility or taking the piss who are because they couldn't get the finger out. I suspect other parts of the UK are no different in having these paragons of inability.
We are dealing with an unknown, less than couple of months of data and understanding and we, like many countries didn't have a great picture of where this was going to go. We still do not. Government has thrown the kitchen sink at some key areas in the hope of as much mud sticking as possible, which is exactly how shit works sometimes. As I understand it wasn't, for example, govt ministers who at first wanted testing restricted to certain Public Health labs for example, it was the civil servants.
The politicians are not all at fault here, they direct they do not execute. The civil service will have as much to account for as the politicians and the political advisors. So will parts of the NHS who will have lessons to learn.
No one needs persecuting for making errors here first time around. Incompetence or sheer inability to think outside the box on the other hand deserves a kick in the arse.0 -
Darn it, I see someone beat me to it.Charles said:
I agree. Full on lycra is unacceptable in any polite societyMikeSmithson said:
As a cyclist I find that offensive.Nigel_Foremain said:
Could be a new post-pandemic sport. Higher points for hitting one that is in full on lycraCharles said:
I’d be impressed if you could throw a bottle bank at a passing cyclistMarqueeMark said:Bottlebanks - do we think we should still be using them?
Or should I save them to throw at passing cyclists?
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I think someone forgot to type the 1 into graphing software.Denspark said:
hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.bigjohnowls said:For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC
https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1
By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056
or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.
Or the BBC has screwed it up.0 -
to me looks as if someone at the beeb typed in 1776 instead of 12776......or even 776.bigjohnowls said:
It does look ridiculous i agree.Denspark said:
hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.bigjohnowls said:For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC
https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1
By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056
or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.
Or the BBC has screwed it up.
Either DHSC or BBC have surely made an error in the bar chart0 -
Nothing is as reliable as Charles's kneejerk defence of privileged wealth.0
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You would have thought who ever made that bar chart might have thought, hmm that looks very odd, maybe I should double check everything. And then the person who uploaded for broadcast, again would have said, are we absolutely sure about this?
But then the Daily Mail had that hilarious bar chart where number of daily deaths we fewer, but the bar height was greater.0 -
There have been several smaller Vent. Manufacturers appear on 5 live chomping at the bit to ramp up their capacity and help and very frustrated that Govt didnt get back to them. One memorable interview went on for about 15 mins. Even if this had only produced a few hundred extra from each its more than it has turned out Dyson can get passed as safeCharles said:
The article says:bigjohnowls said:
You mean the one i posted at 7.08pm?BannedinnParis said:
who didn't?Pulpstar said:
Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.bigjohnowls said:
No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale upMarqueeMark said:
If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"bigjohnowls said:Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
Another waste of time and resource.
Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
likewise that BBC chart
And this is one of many traditional manufacturers suggesting he could ramp up production if asked from weeks ago. 5 LIVE have had several on but you can trawl back as i am too busy making up fake bbc news charts
https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ventilators-parts-manufacturer-dyson-airbus-boris-johnson-2518900
a) he’s been involved in the Nightingale build out
b) he’s a parts manufacturer and has to wait until the devices were sorted out so they knew what parts they needed to build
You seem to be suggesting that the government should have ordered parts on spec?
I cant be arsed to find them so if you think i am making it up knock yourself out.
Posts at 6.44pm and 6.51 by another more knowledgeable poster than me says what i think
"A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers"0 -
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).0 -
Only three LAB leaders have ever led their party to general election victoriesStocky said:Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "
I think Harold Wilson?0 -
As for ventilator challenge...maybe I missing something?
There were several strands. There was increase production from the likes of Smiths, make copies of that IP via a consortium, new design from the likes of Dyson and purchase from abroad.
Strand #1, #2 and #4 have delivered increase capacity from traditional ventilators and CPAP masks (which appear to what we really need), e.g,
Hospitals get first new ventilators from business group including BAE Systems
A number of ParaPac devices, made by Smiths Medical – whose production lines have been boosted by the involvement of The Ventilator Challenge UK (TVUK) group – were sent to wards across the UK in the past few days.
Production of the model, which was already being built before the Covid-19 outbreak, was scaled up by the involvement of the consortium, which also includes Formula One racing teams Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, as well as Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and BAE Systems.
https://www.lep.co.uk/business/hospitals-get-first-new-ventilators-business-group-including-bae-systems-2538342
It is strand #3 of traditional ventilators, where they have been made, but not approved. And actually from that strand, what we have got is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to be more effective.
I would put that down as a win.
We should have done the same for testing.2 -
The consensus appears to be building that ventilation is not the best treatment for severe coronavirus and may be counter-productive. If everybody retreats from the ventilator race, the Government will still have liabilities, but they probably dodged a bullet not being part of the EU scheme. Perhaps Dyson will give them a credit note and they can buy hoovers or something.bigjohnowls said:Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de0 -
Weirdly he doesn't post the graph on the same page showing ICU admissions staying consistently high.Andy_JS said:
Almost like the death data is lagged.
This charlatan had preciously stuck a high order polynomial line through UK deaths trying to show they had flattened off on the 27th of March!0 -
The following comment is entirely speculative, but it wouldn't surprise me if something like the following holds true for what happened with the testing.Yokes said:Government has thrown the kitchen sink at some key areas in the hope of as much mud sticking as possible, which is exactly how shit works sometimes. As I understand it wasn't, for example, govt ministers who at first wanted testing restricted to certain Public Health labs for example, it was the civil servants.
In general, the fastest way to get from X to Y will often be to do it in-house. Especially if you want to be fast but also have strong control over eg quality, standardisation of procedures or whatever else matters most to you. This way there's less worry about how you get partners onboard, what kind of additional inspection regime you need, can their software talk to your software, and the million other things that can go wrong. Bigger chance of keeping everything nice and orderly and organised when you do it yourself. If you cock it up then you've cocked up everything, which is a bugger, but if you think you've got a top-class team then you may well back them to get on with it.
The problem comes if getting to Y is entirely insufficient and you actually needed to get from X to Z. If it goes beyond what you've got capacity for, and you don't have the timescale or resources available to sort out whatever your bottlenecks are, then it's time to get other people onboard and start outsourcing. Which brings with it all that additional friction and potential for miscommunication and general chaos. If one of your partners cocks up the egg's still on your face, so there's a degree of political (in the generic/managerial sense rather than the partisan one) and institutional risk. Even if you back your team and you're selective about who you rope in to help, there's a good chance of something somewhere going wrong, although you may reduce the overall systemic risk because hopefully it's not everything that goes wrong - some corner of the more widely distributed system ought to work but you might find a regional partner lets you down, for example. The biggest systemic risk is probably your communication and coordination systems breaking under the strain.
It's important at the beginning to make the correct call about whether you're trying to get to Y or you really needed Z. In more normal circumstances it's probably sensible to give Y a bash first and see how it goes. But if speed is absolutely of the essence then that choice could look very unwise very quickly if you underestimated just where you needed to get to or overestimated your capacity to deliver it.0 -
This is the article seems to say none of the new ones approved from various places and not sure what the penlon ones are??FrancisUrquhart said:As for ventilator challenge...maybe I missing something?
There were several strands. There was increase production from the likes of Smiths, make copies of that IP via a consortium, new design from the likes of Dyson and purchase from abroad.
Strand #1, #2 and #4 have delivered increase capacity from traditional ventilators and CPAP masks (which appear to what we really need), e.g,
Hospitals get first new ventilators from business group including BAE Systems
A number of ParaPac devices, made by Smiths Medical – whose production lines have been boosted by the involvement of The Ventilator Challenge UK (TVUK) group – were sent to wards across the UK in the past few days.
Production of the model, which was already being built before the Covid-19 outbreak, was scaled up by the involvement of the consortium, which also includes Formula One racing teams Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, as well as Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and BAE Systems.
https://www.lep.co.uk/business/hospitals-get-first-new-ventilators-business-group-including-bae-systems-2538342
It is strand #3 of traditional ventilators, where they have been made, but not approved. And actually from that strand, what we have got is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to be more effective.
I would put that down as a win.
We should have done the same for testing.
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/uk-scraps-plans-to-buy-thousands-of-bluesky-ventilators-coronavirus0 -
I presume we're thinking Attlee, Wilson and Blair which is fine.MikeSmithson said:
Only three LAB leaders have ever led their party to general election victoriesStocky said:Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "
I think Harold Wilson?
Now, to semantics probably better suited to Nighthawks, what about Ramsey MacDonald? I suppose it's how you define an election "victory" but he formed and led Governments after both the December 1923 and 1929 elections so in a sense didn't he "win" them or did the Conservatives lose more?3 -
I think there might be some confusion.bigjohnowls said:
This is the article seems to say none of the new ones approved from various places and not sure what the penlon ones are??FrancisUrquhart said:As for ventilator challenge...maybe I missing something?
There were several strands. There was increase production from the likes of Smiths, make copies of that IP via a consortium, new design from the likes of Dyson and purchase from abroad.
Strand #1, #2 and #4 have delivered increase capacity from traditional ventilators and CPAP masks (which appear to what we really need), e.g,
Hospitals get first new ventilators from business group including BAE Systems
A number of ParaPac devices, made by Smiths Medical – whose production lines have been boosted by the involvement of The Ventilator Challenge UK (TVUK) group – were sent to wards across the UK in the past few days.
Production of the model, which was already being built before the Covid-19 outbreak, was scaled up by the involvement of the consortium, which also includes Formula One racing teams Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, as well as Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and BAE Systems.
https://www.lep.co.uk/business/hospitals-get-first-new-ventilators-business-group-including-bae-systems-2538342
It is strand #3 of traditional ventilators, where they have been made, but not approved. And actually from that strand, what we have got is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to be more effective.
I would put that down as a win.
We should have done the same for testing.
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/uk-scraps-plans-to-buy-thousands-of-bluesky-ventilators-coronavirus
As stated in the link I provided, F1 teams have their fingers in two projects, helping to copying ParaPac machines as part of a consortium along with Rolls Royce, Airbus and BAE System, and a new device.
The ParaPac machines (the copies of Smiths) don't need regulator approval and as far as I know have started to be delivered. Strand #2.
F1 teams were also involved in making a new type of ventilator. Along with Dyson design, that was all part of Strand #3. It seems treating CV like your standard pneumonia, is counter-productive.
What has come out of Strand #3, is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to actually what is needed.0 -
FU are you saying that the article saying the below is incorrect?
None of the new mechanical ventilators developed for treating coronavirus patients have obtained UK regulatory approval, a month after the government issued a rallying cry for British industry to help plug a shortage of the devices.
Also which ones does this refer to
A plan to buy thousands of medical ventilators from a group including the Renault and Red Bull Formula One teams has been cancelled amid signs that symptoms specific to Covid-19 could make building new devices more difficult than hoped.
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They might as well give you a headstone.....Tim_B said:
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).0 -
Donations to Captain Tom currently running at around £12,000 a minute...0
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Your right by the looks of it about CPAP masks. Says Mercedes hereFrancisUrquhart said:
I think there might be some confusion.bigjohnowls said:
This is the article seems to say none of the new ones approved from various places and not sure what the penlon ones are??FrancisUrquhart said:As for ventilator challenge...maybe I missing something?
There were several strands. There was increase production from the likes of Smiths, make copies of that IP via a consortium, new design from the likes of Dyson and purchase from abroad.
Strand #1, #2 and #4 have delivered increase capacity from traditional ventilators and CPAP masks (which appear to what we really need), e.g,
Hospitals get first new ventilators from business group including BAE Systems
A number of ParaPac devices, made by Smiths Medical – whose production lines have been boosted by the involvement of The Ventilator Challenge UK (TVUK) group – were sent to wards across the UK in the past few days.
Production of the model, which was already being built before the Covid-19 outbreak, was scaled up by the involvement of the consortium, which also includes Formula One racing teams Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, as well as Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and BAE Systems.
https://www.lep.co.uk/business/hospitals-get-first-new-ventilators-business-group-including-bae-systems-2538342
It is strand #3 of traditional ventilators, where they have been made, but not approved. And actually from that strand, what we have got is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to be more effective.
I would put that down as a win.
We should have done the same for testing.
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/uk-scraps-plans-to-buy-thousands-of-bluesky-ventilators-coronavirus
As stated in the link I provided, F1 teams have their fingers in two projects, helping to copying ParaPac machines as part of a consortium along with Rolls Royce, Airbus and BAE System, and a new device.
The ParaPac machines (the copies of Smiths) don't need regulator approval and as far as I know have started to be delivered. Strand #2.
F1 teams were also involved in making a new type of ventilator. Along with Dyson design, that was all part of Strand #3. It seems treating CV like your standard pneumonia, is counter-productive.
What has come out of Strand #3, is 10,000s of CPAP masks, which appear to actually what is needed.
https://www.motorsportweek.com/2020/04/15/mercedes-hpp-completes-production-of-10000-cpap-devices/0 -
I was once very poorly and put on an Acute Medical Unit reassuringly named the "Ed Stone Ward"...MarqueeMark said:
They might as well give you a headstone.....Tim_B said:
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).2 -
No, you are confusing two different things.bigjohnowls said:FU are you saying that the article saying the below is incorrect?
None of the new mechanical ventilators developed for treating coronavirus patients have obtained UK regulatory approval, a month after the government issued a rallying cry for British industry to help plug a shortage of the devices.
Also which ones does this refer to
A plan to buy thousands of medical ventilators from a group including the Renault and Red Bull Formula One teams has been cancelled amid signs that symptoms specific to Covid-19 could make building new devices more difficult than hoped.
Strand #2, is copying an existing machine. The Ventilator challenge has enabled the production of this to increase thanks to the involvement of the consortium, which also includes Formula One racing teams Mercedes, McLaren and Williams, as well as Rolls-Royce, Airbus, and BAE Systems.
Smiths let them have the IP, they copied it, it does not need to be approved.
Strand #3 is where new designs. The Dyson machine and this other F1 design.
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
If we had done the same for testing, I am sure we would be north of 100,000 tests a day by now.0 -
Left to themselves organizations are going to organization-ish things like defending their turf. This is the nature of organizations. Getting the organization to follow an actual public policy goal requires *leadership*. In a company leadership is the job of the directors of the company. In government leadership is the job of politicians.Yokes said:
We are dealing with an unknown, less than couple of months of data and understanding and we, like many countries didn't have a great picture of where this was going to go. We still do not. Government has thrown the kitchen sink at some key areas in the hope of as much mud sticking as possible, which is exactly how shit works sometimes. As I understand it wasn't, for example, govt ministers who at first wanted testing restricted to certain Public Health labs for example, it was the civil servants.
The politicians are not all at fault here, they direct they do not execute. The civil service will have as much to account for as the politicians and the political advisors. So will parts of the NHS who will have lessons to learn.
If leadership doesn't happen and organizations just follow their own internal agendas, that is absolutely the fault of the politicians. It's the job we elect politicians to do. If the cabinet and the Prime Minister don't want to do it or don't want to be held accountable for the result, they should give back the ministerial cars and hand the power over to someone who does.0 -
60 from German Army apparently and Trump said he had some he was letting Boris have 200 because they have loads
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/german-army-donates-60-mobile-ventilators-uk-coronavirus-nhs
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8199249/Anger-Trump-sending-ventilators-UK.html0 -
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
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It's actually a bit of a reassuring anchor in these buffeting and uncertain times.Alistair said:Nothing is as reliable as Charles's kneejerk defence of privileged wealth.
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Especially for those that possess it.Theuniondivvie said:
It's actually a bit of a reassuring anchor in these buffeting and uncertain times.Alistair said:Nothing is as reliable as Charles's kneejerk defence of privileged wealth.
4 -
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them regardless of if there was a an element of risk.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, and it doesn't seem we need the 30, 40, 50k of them they first thought and CPAP masks are better.
Without the ventilator challenge, we probably wouldn't have got the CPAP masks.0 -
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The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....0 -
Or fansLuckyguy1983 said:
The consensus appears to be building that ventilation is not the best treatment for severe coronavirus and may be counter-productive. If everybody retreats from the ventilator race, the Government will still have liabilities, but they probably dodged a bullet not being part of the EU scheme. Perhaps Dyson will give them a credit note and they can buy hoovers or something.bigjohnowls said:Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly
https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de0 -
There's a secondary question in that even more than Blair Ramsey MacDonald is persona non grata within Labour and now considered not Labour and a traitor.stodge said:
I presume we're thinking Attlee, Wilson and Blair which is fine.MikeSmithson said:
Only three LAB leaders have ever led their party to general election victoriesStocky said:Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "
I think Harold Wilson?
Now, to semantics probably better suited to Nighthawks, what about Ramsey MacDonald? I suppose it's how you define an election "victory" but he formed and led Governments after both the December 1923 and 1929 elections so in a sense didn't he "win" them or did the Conservatives lose more?
Its ironic that of the 4 election winners [I would count MacDonald] that half of them are considered not "real Labour".2 -
Is it possible ventilators aren't as effective as normal because whilst the lungs aren't working as they are basically replaced by the ventilator so the body doesn't supply so much blood, antigens etc to the lungs as they're basically redundant.
Usually you can pump the patient full of antibiotics to fight the bacterial pneumonia or whatever ?0 -
So that's another festival scone then?MarqueeMark said:
Ba-doom tish!TheScreamingEagles said:The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.
Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.
Still a bit raw for me after, we had to can the Dart Music Festival in May....0 -
Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.1 -
On that basis I'm willing to put myself forward as a reassuring anchor.Nigelb said:
Especially for those that possess it.Theuniondivvie said:
It's actually a bit of a reassuring anchor in these buffeting and uncertain times.Alistair said:Nothing is as reliable as Charles's kneejerk defence of privileged wealth.
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There has been some early research hypothesising that there are in fact two states which people get into in regards to CV. One is your traditional ARDs, which is what you put a person on a ventilator for. The other is more akin to severe altitude sickness, and you definitely don't stick these people on one, it makes it way worse.Pulpstar said:Is it possible ventilators aren't as effective as normal because whilst the lungs aren't working as they are basically replaced by the ventilator so the body doesn't supply so much blood, antigens etc to the lungs as they're basically redundant.
Usually you can pump the patient full of antibiotics to fight the bacterial pneumonia or whatever ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8aG63yigjA0 -
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.0 -
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
Spoke to a colleague today (Yes yes I was obeying guidelines) who I think has definitely had it, said it was like his chest/lungs were being crushed.FrancisUrquhart said:
There has been some early research hypothesising that there are in fact two states which people get into in regards to CV. One is your traditional ARDs, which is what you put a person on a ventilator for. The other is more akin to severe altitude sickness, and you definitely don't stick these people on one, it makes it way worse.Pulpstar said:Is it possible ventilators aren't as effective as normal because whilst the lungs aren't working as they are basically replaced by the ventilator so the body doesn't supply so much blood, antigens etc to the lungs as they're basically redundant.
Usually you can pump the patient full of antibiotics to fight the bacterial pneumonia or whatever ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8aG63yigjA0 -
On which basis, assuming people only donate while they're awake, he'll have raised somewhere near to £173m by the time he's 100.bigjohnowls said:
He's just passed £9.5m0 -
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.1 -
Another thought, if Germany are basically sticking the line in the sand as end of August for some sort of return to normality. I don't think we are going to see international travel resume for a very long time. No foreign holibobs for at least the rest of 2020, if not longer.0
-
I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=200 -
Looks a real mess and hard to placate both sidesbigjohnowls said:0 -
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
Just watch out that Charles doesn’t tie a chain round your ankles and throw you overboard...Theuniondivvie said:
On that basis I'm willing to put myself forward as a reassuring anchor.Nigelb said:
Especially for those that possess it.Theuniondivvie said:
It's actually a bit of a reassuring anchor in these buffeting and uncertain times.Alistair said:Nothing is as reliable as Charles's kneejerk defence of privileged wealth.
0 -
Not unless the insurance industry backs down/gets an indemnity for Covid-19 deaths/medivac/medical fees.FrancisUrquhart said:Another thought, if Germany are basically sticking the line in the sand as end of August for some sort of return to normality. I don't think we are going to see international travel resume for a very long time. No foreign holibobs for at least the rest of 2020, if not longer.
0 -
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
In 1923 the Unionists had 258 seats to Labour’s 191 and the Liberals’ 156. So Labour did not win that election. However, by the time Parliament reassembled Asquith had decided to support Labour so they formed a brief minority government for much of 1924.stodge said:
I presume we're thinking Attlee, Wilson and Blair which is fine.MikeSmithson said:
Only three LAB leaders have ever led their party to general election victoriesStocky said:Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "
I think Harold Wilson?
Now, to semantics probably better suited to Nighthawks, what about Ramsey MacDonald? I suppose it's how you define an election "victory" but he formed and led Governments after both the December 1923 and 1929 elections so in a sense didn't he "win" them or did the Conservatives lose more?
In 1929 Labour won 285 seats to the Conservatives’ 260 (I haven’t checked those figures I won’t swear they are 100% accurate). They received a smaller share of the popular vote. Labour again formed a minority government with the backing of the 59 Liberals.
You could argue that MacDonald ‘won’ in 1929 but it was a pretty tenuous win. In 1923, you really cannot make that argument.
Put It this way, only three Labour leaders have won majorities at general elections, and served a full term in office as PM. And of those three, only one served more than one term.
Edited to add - I suppose you could point out Macdonald did serve a full term as PM. The small flaw is, he was not leader of the Labour Party at the time...2 -
It was though, same way as CV is actually caused by 5G....nichomar said:
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
They won't (Except perhaps a really unlucky one) end up in hospital but the infection still sounds nasty even if you're very healthy.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
Same as the right-wing loons demanding we end lockdown because the number of deaths don't justify the economic hit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=210 -
I'd suggest the drain on the NHS would be extremely negligible if anything and the taxes the game generates for the NHS would more than make it worthwhile if its safe to do.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
The question must surely be if it is safe to do.0 -
Ridiculous comments.FrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.
Because we wanted to save lives
Building capacity is by far the best achievement of HM Govt/ NHS in all this0 -
As long as the general public have to practice safe distancing I cannot see any case for contact sports.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football and rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing soume small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
They are in a position where they could tested regularly as a precaution.Pulpstar said:
They won't (Except perhaps a really unlucky one) end up in hospital but the infection still sounds nasty even if you're very healthy.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
Right wing loons like John Harris?glw said:
Same as the right-wing loons demanding we end lockdown because the number of deaths don't justify the economic hit.FrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.
Crashing the economy costs lives too.
I'm not saying we should end the lockdown. But there is clearly a balance to be struck. Disagreeing, with necessarily partial evidence, on where that balance is doesn't make someone a loon. Nor right wing.0 -
The more sparsely populated US states are discovering they are not immune.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/15/coronavirus-rural-america-covid-19-186031
...On April 1, Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota—one of five states, all in the central heartland, without stay-at-home orders—defended her decision to leave South Dakotans “free to exercise their rights to work, to worship, and to play” by saying, “South Dakota is not New York City, and our sense of personal responsibility, our resiliency and our already sparse population density put us in a great position to manage this virus” without resorting to the “draconian” measures taken elsewhere
Complacency is fast fading, however, as rural residents realize that, far from being immune, they may be uniquely vulnerable when the epidemic reaches them. Even as Noem spoke, Covid-19 was spreading at a Sioux Falls meatpacking plant that subsequently closed after more than 300 workers fell sick, and local officials across the state begged her to issue shutdown and shelter-in-place orders...0 -
I am not a Y2K hoax theorist. I am however struck by the *universal* success of the avoidance measures. If it was such a universal and intractable problem one would have expected a couple of third world countries to lose their banking or telephone systems, say, or a software-driven Chernobyl, or just something to show the rest of us what we'd so narrowly avoided?nichomar said:
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
Think it's a bit generous to grant December 1923 as a "Labour victory", only 191 seats vs 258 for the Tories and Baldwin did stagger on for about a month as PM.stodge said:
I presume we're thinking Attlee, Wilson and Blair which is fine.MikeSmithson said:
Only three LAB leaders have ever led their party to general election victoriesStocky said:Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "
I think Harold Wilson?
Now, to semantics probably better suited to Nighthawks, what about Ramsey MacDonald? I suppose it's how you define an election "victory" but he formed and led Governments after both the December 1923 and 1929 elections so in a sense didn't he "win" them or did the Conservatives lose more?
But I'd probably give MacDonald 1929? Yes 42 seats short of a majority, but 287 seats vs 260 for the Tories was their first ever time with most seats and sufficient for Baldwin to be turfed out essentially immediately. The vote share was 37.1% to Labour and 38.1% to the Tories, so on that basis Labour "lost", but GEs are won and lost on seats not vote totals.
Obviously it's a philosophical question what counts as "winning an election". Most seats probably isn't enough in its own right if the parliament is hung - like the 2017 NZ election where the governing Nationals won 56 seats to Labour's 46 but couldn't form a coalition or confidence and supply, whereas Ardern could. It wouldn't be meaningful to say the Nationals won that one. But in 2014 the Nationals were short of a majority by 1 seat, beating Labour by 60 seats to 32, and were able to get the C&S to stay in power. Which in my book sounds like a "win".
If I had to define criteria, I think the simple arithmetic of most seats plus winning the "political dynamics" so it's you who gets power is probably enough. But I'm half-minded that needing to form a formal coalition rather than getting by on C&S should disqualify you, since it isn't just your party in government. On that basis I suppose I've painted myself into the corner of saying "May won in 2017" but that doesn't feel quite right, part of me thinks if you were governing with a majority and then fall back to a minority government that backwards step is a tainted win at best. But Labour in 1929 went from second-placed in seats to first-place and dethroned (or more accurately dedowninged) the sitting PM, so that's definitely a forwards step. I wouldn't look at the sentence "MacDonald led Labour to victory at the 1929 election" and get the gut feeling it was incorrect in the same way I would with "May led the Tories to victory in the 2017 election". I'd admit it was nuanced, though. Needs as asterisk after it or something.0 -
Lost her head in the Black Hills, the Black Hills of Dakota?Nigelb said:The more sparsely populated US states are discovering they are not immune.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/15/coronavirus-rural-america-covid-19-186031
...On April 1, Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota—one of five states, all in the central heartland, without stay-at-home orders—defended her decision to leave South Dakotans “free to exercise their rights to work, to worship, and to play” by saying, “South Dakota is not New York City, and our sense of personal responsibility, our resiliency and our already sparse population density put us in a great position to manage this virus” without resorting to the “draconian” measures taken elsewhere
Complacency is fast fading, however, as rural residents realize that, far from being immune, they may be uniquely vulnerable when the epidemic reaches them. Even as Noem spoke, Covid-19 was spreading at a Sioux Falls meatpacking plant that subsequently closed after more than 300 workers fell sick, and local officials across the state begged her to issue shutdown and shelter-in-place orders...0 -
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.0 -
It wasn't intractable. Most of it was quite simple to fix. Comparatively junior programmers like me, at the time, did a lot of it. Most of it was just changing two-digit date processing to four-digit. It was just an awful lot of work going through every single line of operational code.IshmaelZ said:
I am not a Y2K hoax theorist. I am however struck by the *universal* success of the avoidance measures. If it was such a universal and intractable problem one would have expected a couple of third world countries to lose their banking or telephone systems, say, or a software-driven Chernobyl, or just something to show the rest of us what we'd so narrowly avoided?nichomar said:
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.
0 -
It's a divide between those who are fairly relaxed about living in a technocracy and those who aren't.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=210 -
Most of the fixes required would have been quite basic. And I can't imagine computer programmers in the Third World are any less capable than those from anywhere else.IshmaelZ said:
I am not a Y2K hoax theorist. I am however struck by the *universal* success of the avoidance measures. If it was such a universal and intractable problem one would have expected a couple of third world countries to lose their banking or telephone systems, say, or a software-driven Chernobyl, or just something to show the rest of us what we'd so narrowly avoided?nichomar said:
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.
0 -
Did they have 'time to care'?MyBurningEars said:
I was once very poorly and put on an Acute Medical Unit reassuringly named the "Ed Stone Ward"...MarqueeMark said:
They might as well give you a headstone.....Tim_B said:
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).0 -
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.0 -
Dan Hodges reckons we won't put up with it for more than another few weeks though.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=210 -
The way I read BigG's point, and this was reasonable I feel, is that contact sport means injuries. You need ambulances and doctors at the ground. Where's a seriously injured player going to go for treatment? So I can't see it happening unless the NHS is operating well within capacity. (As a separate issue, as an injured player would I be keen on being taken to a COVID-hit hospital... think they'd need to get the players' consent to all this too.)FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.1 -
I actually think the bigger issue is it looks like one rule for the plebs and one for the billion dollar football industry. The actual risk to players and staff can be made so minimal they are at more risk of having their career screwed by dropping an iron on their foot.Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.1 -
The pro-technocracy camp are those who trust the government to fine tune the epidemic by relaxing restrictions?Andy_JS said:
It's a divide between those who are fairly relaxed about living in a technocracy and those who aren't.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=210 -
Also between those for whom the greatest risk is being a bit bored and doing some gardening and a daily peregrination and those for whom this is a living hell.Andy_JS said:
It's a divide between those who are fairly relaxed about living in a technocracy and those who aren't.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=21
I fall into the first category and I recognise how lucky I am.0 -
So that's where the Ed Stone (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EdStone) went - foundations for a medical unit.....Luckyguy1983 said:
Did they have 'time to care'?MyBurningEars said:
I was once very poorly and put on an Acute Medical Unit reassuringly named the "Ed Stone Ward"...MarqueeMark said:
They might as well give you a headstone.....Tim_B said:
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).0 -
I am not a 5G conspiracy subscriber. However, I do sometimes wonder whether getting bigger and bigger and more powerful and more powerful masts so that we can load more and more bits of data into the ether so that we can see TV presenters' crows feet and yawning pores is the way we should be going.
We don't have cars that each year guzzle more and more gas so that we can add more and more barely useful functions to them. Perhaps efficiency in the way electrical information is sent would be a hood thing to aim for.0 -
Your first sentence sums up why I cannot see it happeningFrancisUrquhart said:
I actually think the bigger issue is it looks like one rule for the plebs and one for the billion dollar football industry. The actual risk to players and staff can be made so minimal they are at more risk of having their career screwed by dropping an iron on their foot.Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.
Are kick abouts going to be allowed in parks and a relaxation on numbers of people allowed to gather together
The football authorities should declare the season over and award the premiership to Liverpool0 -
But "the Internet of Things" - if we didn't have all the extra capacity then how would our mobile phones talk to our fridges? Or turn on our mood lighting remotely before we get home?Luckyguy1983 said:I am not a 5G conspiracy subscriber. However, I do sometimes wonder whether getting bigger and bigger and more powerful and more powerful masts so that we can load more and more bits of data into the ether so that we can see TV presenters' crows feet and yawning pores is the way we should be going.
We don't have cars that each year guzzle more and more gas so that we can add more and more barely useful functions to them. Perhaps efficiency in the way electrical information is sent would be a good thing to aim for.
How would we live without that? It's unthinkable!1 -
I was talking about say 2-3 months down the line. Where the worst is over, but a lot of the rules are still in place. Germany making it clear, it is going to be until the end of summer before they anticipate letting normal life resume.MyBurningEars said:
The way I read BigG's point, and this was reasonable I feel, is that contact sport means injuries. You need ambulances and doctors at the ground. Where's a seriously injured player going to go for treatment? So I can't see it happening unless the NHS is operating well within capacity. (As a separate issue, as an injured player would I be keen on being taken to a COVID-hit hospital... think they'd need to get the players' consent to all this too.)FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
Lets presume we follow suit. That is a very long time where nobody can go to a bar or restaurant or to the cinema.1 -
Some are making a start....Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.
MLB players, team employees participating in coronavirus study
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29036123/mlb-players-team-employees-participating-coronavirus-study0 -
I can imagine there being fewer of them, with markedly less access to information and training (in what was pretty much a pre internet world), than first world counterparts.Stark_Dawning said:
Most of the fixes required would have been quite basic. And I can't imagine computer programmers in the Third World are any less capable than those from anywhere else.IshmaelZ said:
I am not a Y2K hoax theorist. I am however struck by the *universal* success of the avoidance measures. If it was such a universal and intractable problem one would have expected a couple of third world countries to lose their banking or telephone systems, say, or a software-driven Chernobyl, or just something to show the rest of us what we'd so narrowly avoided?nichomar said:
They will be the same people who claimed the Y2K problems was a hoax with no understanding of what was actually doneFrancisUrquhart said:
Already starting to see comments and articles claiming "doubts" why did build / plan all these NHS Nightingale places....glw said:
The same approach as Bill Gates wants to take with vaccines, build all the plants that are potentially needed and most of them will never start production. That is the complete opposite of a failure, as is the ventilator procurement.Malmesbury said:
The reason for the multiple strands was to order more than was forecast to be required. On the basis that some approaches might not work...FrancisUrquhart said:
I think that is a bit of a circular argument. The Strand #3 designs haven't been approved, because CV doesn't react the way normal pneumonia does. If it did, they would have more than likely been approved the machines, because a) they would have been effective and b) we would need them.Andrew said:
We definitely rolled a six on that front. If we'd needed a lot more ventilators as originally anticipated .... yikes.FrancisUrquhart said:
Of the strategy, strand #1, #2, #4, have increased ventilator capacity in the NHS. Strand #3 has increased the number of CPAP masks exponentially, and that is what we appear to need.
But it isn't, it doesn't seem we are desperately sort of them and CPAP masks are better.
"Waste everything except time"....
I may well survive the virus, *touch wood*, but I fear I will end up popping my clogs due to intense rage provoked by all the smart alecs who will be wrting aticles about "why did we waste money/time on X" over the next few months.0 -
-
I think this is the biggest stumbling block. I was just thinking though, if it really is going to be until September that you can't go out for any entertainment or social events, are people going to get very bored once they have binged watched the Netflix catalogue.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your first sentence sums up why I cannot see it happeningFrancisUrquhart said:
I actually think the bigger issue is it looks like one rule for the plebs and one for the billion dollar football industry. The actual risk to players and staff can be made so minimal they are at more risk of having their career screwed by dropping an iron on their foot.Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.
Are kick abouts going to be allowed in parks and a relaxation on numbers of people allowed to gather together
The football authorities should declare the season over and award the premiership to Liverpool0 -
-
I wonder whether it gave Ed Miliband some ideas...Luckyguy1983 said:
Did they have 'time to care'?MyBurningEars said:
I was once very poorly and put on an Acute Medical Unit reassuringly named the "Ed Stone Ward"...MarqueeMark said:
They might as well give you a headstone.....Tim_B said:
According to Gov Cuomo today, in NY if you go on a ventilator there's an 80% chance you don't come off it, to use his phrase.FrancisUrquhart said:Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.
In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.
There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).
0 -
So do my wife and I and we ae very blessed , but do miss our children and grandchildrenCookie said:
Also between those for whom the greatest risk is being a bit bored and doing some gardening and a daily peregrination and those for whom this is a living hell.Andy_JS said:
It's a divide between those who are fairly relaxed about living in a technocracy and those who aren't.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=21
I fall into the first category and I recognise how lucky I am.0 -
Not forgetting, of course, that even members of category A will eventually be pulled under by this if the economy is sunk.Cookie said:
Also between those for whom the greatest risk is being a bit bored and doing some gardening and a daily peregrination and those for whom this is a living hell.Andy_JS said:
It's a divide between those who are fairly relaxed about living in a technocracy and those who aren't.williamglenn said:
It’s interesting how this cuts across the previous dividing lines.Theuniondivvie said:I could imagine some of the more strident end-the-lockdowners on here being in this crowd.
https://twitter.com/futurecanon/status/1250502000640512000?s=20
https://twitter.com/nadinedorries/status/1250494730451836928?s=21
I fall into the first category and I recognise how lucky I am.
The requirement for balance remarked upon by Nadine Dorries is obviously correct. But that equally obviously means a sensible balance that allows all the people who are suffering from the economic fallout not to end up being crushed by it, and not full lockdown ad infinitum.0 -
The report i read today from scientists at i believe Columbia university said those antibody tests still are pile of poo. 50% accuracy when it comes back negative. And it will take months to get them right.Nigelb said:
Some are making a start....Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.
MLB players, team employees participating in coronavirus study
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/29036123/mlb-players-team-employees-participating-coronavirus-study0 -
New tech is lovely, I don't want it to stand still. But I think the industry needs to look at how it can make the most of existing bandwidth rather than contsant 'G' updates requiring massive infrastructure.Black_Rook said:
But "the Internet of Things" - if we didn't have all the extra capacity then how would our mobile phones talk to our fridges? Or turn on our mood lighting remotely before we get home?Luckyguy1983 said:I am not a 5G conspiracy subscriber. However, I do sometimes wonder whether getting bigger and bigger and more powerful and more powerful masts so that we can load more and more bits of data into the ether so that we can see TV presenters' crows feet and yawning pores is the way we should be going.
We don't have cars that each year guzzle more and more gas so that we can add more and more barely useful functions to them. Perhaps efficiency in the way electrical information is sent would be a good thing to aim for.
How would we live without that? It's unthinkable!0 -
Are you going to want to visit a bar or cinema, particularly if you're say going to visit your nan on saturday... ?FrancisUrquhart said:
I was talking about say 2-3 months down the line. Where the worst is over, but a lot of the rules are still in place. Germany making it clear, it is going to be until the end of summer before they anticipate letting normal life resume.MyBurningEars said:
The way I read BigG's point, and this was reasonable I feel, is that contact sport means injuries. You need ambulances and doctors at the ground. Where's a seriously injured player going to go for treatment? So I can't see it happening unless the NHS is operating well within capacity. (As a separate issue, as an injured player would I be keen on being taken to a COVID-hit hospital... think they'd need to get the players' consent to all this too.)FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
Lets presume we follow suit. That is a very long time where nobody can go to a bar or restaurant or to the cinema.0 -
Indoor transmission of SARS-CoV-2
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1
Case reports were extracted from the local Municipal Health Commissions of 320 prefectural cities (municipalities) in China, not including Hubei province, between 4 January and 11 February 2020. We identified all outbreaks involving three or more cases and reviewed the major characteristics of the enclosed spaces in which the outbreaks were reported and associated indoor environmental issues. Results: Three hundred and eighteen outbreaks with three or more cases were identified, involving 1245 confirmed cases in 120 prefectural cities. We divided the venues in which the outbreaks occurred into six categories: homes, transport, food, entertainment, shopping, and miscellaneous. Among the identified outbreaks, 53.8% involved three cases, 26.4% involved four cases, and only 1.6% involved ten or more cases. Home outbreaks were the dominant category (254 of 318 outbreaks; 79.9%), followed by transport (108; 34.0%; note that many outbreaks involved more than one venue category). Most home outbreaks involved three to five cases. We identified only a single outbreak in an outdoor environment, which involved two cases. Conclusions: All identified outbreaks of three or more cases occurred in an indoor environment, which confirms that sharing indoor space is a major SARS-CoV-2 infection risk....1 -
https://twitter.com/DougChapmanSNP/status/1250349046373298179?s=20
Or is it something else, or too soon to say?1 -
That being the case, spare a thought for all those who can't afford luxuries like Netflix in the first place.FrancisUrquhart said:
I think this is the biggest stumbling block. I was just thinking though, if it really is going to be until September that you can't go out for any entertainment or social events, are people going to get very bored once they have binged watched the Netflix catalogue.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your first sentence sums up why I cannot see it happeningFrancisUrquhart said:
I actually think the bigger issue is it looks like one rule for the plebs and one for the billion dollar football industry. The actual risk to players and staff can be made so minimal they are at more risk of having their career screwed by dropping an iron on their foot.Cookie said:
Sorry, I'd missed the second half of your post about these sports having the resources to test.FrancisUrquhart said:
There is, but that combined with regular testing of all players and coaches, i think we are talking very risk activity. They would be much more likely to get it from daily life than kicking a ball around with 20 odd other tested people.Cookie said:
Wasn't there some Irish top-flight footballer who ended up on a ventilator? While there is a greater chance of fighting the thing off if you're young, I think there are still a lot of factors beyond youth and fitness.FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
God I miss sport.
Are kick abouts going to be allowed in parks and a relaxation on numbers of people allowed to gather together
The football authorities should declare the season over and award the premiership to Liverpool0 -
Cinemas, theatres, nightclubs, concerts - buggered.....Nigelb said:Indoor transmission of SARS-CoV-2
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.20053058v1
Case reports were extracted from the local Municipal Health Commissions of 320 prefectural cities (municipalities) in China, not including Hubei province, between 4 January and 11 February 2020. We identified all outbreaks involving three or more cases and reviewed the major characteristics of the enclosed spaces in which the outbreaks were reported and associated indoor environmental issues. Results: Three hundred and eighteen outbreaks with three or more cases were identified, involving 1245 confirmed cases in 120 prefectural cities. We divided the venues in which the outbreaks occurred into six categories: homes, transport, food, entertainment, shopping, and miscellaneous. Among the identified outbreaks, 53.8% involved three cases, 26.4% involved four cases, and only 1.6% involved ten or more cases. Home outbreaks were the dominant category (254 of 318 outbreaks; 79.9%), followed by transport (108; 34.0%; note that many outbreaks involved more than one venue category). Most home outbreaks involved three to five cases. We identified only a single outbreak in an outdoor environment, which involved two cases. Conclusions: All identified outbreaks of three or more cases occurred in an indoor environment, which confirms that sharing indoor space is a major SARS-CoV-2 infection risk....0 -
I have a feeling that if we do get back to a "new normal" there'll still be plenty of infections going round and the hospitals will still be pretty busy with it (so not a great place to go with a buggered ACL or whatever). To pick up on another good point you made, even if some more services have reopened, Joe Normal may not be allowed to meet up with his mates for a kickabout. Are they going to have to display a public information notice at the top of the screen, "WARNING: these are highly-trained and protected PROFESSIONAL football players, DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS AT HOME"?FrancisUrquhart said:
I was talking about say 2-3 months down the line. Where the worst is over, but a lot of the rules are still in place. Germany making it clear, it is going to be until the end of summer before they anticipate letting normal life resume.MyBurningEars said:
The way I read BigG's point, and this was reasonable I feel, is that contact sport means injuries. You need ambulances and doctors at the ground. Where's a seriously injured player going to go for treatment? So I can't see it happening unless the NHS is operating well within capacity. (As a separate issue, as an injured player would I be keen on being taken to a COVID-hit hospital... think they'd need to get the players' consent to all this too.)FrancisUrquhart said:
At the top level, i would suggest supremely fit 20 somethings risk from suffering seriously from CV is so low it isn't really a genuine concern and they can afford to test all players and staff privately.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Maybe but football nd rugby are contact sports and not to forget the drain on the NHS and emergency services even if played behind closed doorsFrancisUrquhart said:
I guess sport, if it does resume, will be played behind closed doors....the country cricket scene won't notice much difference.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I fear you may be right and of course no football unless they suspend safe distancingFrancisUrquhart said:Although Germany is allowing some small shops to reopen shortly and kids to do their exams in school. They have already announced no large gatherings until at least end of August. Thats no places of worship, no music venues, etc and slightly ambiguous from the bbc report, no bars, restaurants, cinemas or cafes.
And this is Germany, who are doing well. We ain't going nowhere near returning to normal life all summer.
I still can't believe that Florida has deemed the old fake wrestling as an essential service. And the cage fighting lot, they plan to hire out an island and run them from there.
Lets presume we follow suit. That is a very long time where nobody can go to a bar or restaurant or to the cinema.0
