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  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,833

    Andy_JS said:
    Odd how we still seem to be deluding ourselves that "our" NHS is in a much better position than the hopeless old Italians. The data says not!
    And yet, we don't seem to be seeing anything like the situations there was in Italy with army trucks taking away corpses etc.
    Either this is due to Italian cases being hyperlocalised (Lombardy beyonf breaking point but the south being almost unctouched?) or the Italian data is a muc hbigger understatement of the real situation than our data.
  • I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424

    Charles said:

    Bottlebanks - do we think we should still be using them?

    Or should I save them to throw at passing cyclists?

    I’d be impressed if you could throw a bottle bank at a passing cyclist
    Could be a new post-pandemic sport. Higher points for hitting one that is in full on lycra
    Although pissing in a bottle bank sounds even tougher. I mean,the holes are usually quite high up.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,424
    edited April 2020

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    On this occasion, they blew it.
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    ABZ said:

    Easter Sunday less than 2,000 tests WTF

    Where are you seeing that? I'm pretty sure the number was much higher than that...
    12776, with ca. 8300 on the Monday.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775
    Strange times.

    I just tried watching the telly. Richard Osman will I suspect give the opec leaders sleepless nights - oiliness doesn't come close.

    Dyson will get it right.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    As far as Leicester goes, it looks as if our peak (hospital) deaths was 6 April.

    I think that Social Care is a week or two behind though, and will suffer over the next week or so.

    Right very positive stuff about NHS deaths in Leicester then



    Looking at the chart, we are a little over half the national rate. I think that you must be in "Joined Up Derbyshire STP" at a little over the national rate.

    The biggest hotspot at present seems to be Newcastle and around.
    Some comfort to see Devon has the lowest deaths after being the first (Italian school ski-trip caused) hot-spot. I think folks here hunkered down harder and faster because of that - the results would seem to support it. We are running at around 1/15th of the rate in the Black Country.

    We must also have one of the highest average ages in the country - a further incentive for Devon residents to keep the hell out of Dodge.
    The virus won't propagate well in areas where retired couples live together in low population density with small shops about.

    Big families living cheek by jowl, heading into big supermarkets is what it needs to thrive.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    ydoethur said:

    All the days are the same for me in the lockdown; so can anyone explain why the Bank Holiday should continue to have its ususal salience, given that there has been no slacking off over the Easter weekend as staff went away for a break. Why SHOULD the numbers be different over a "Bank Holiday" that never was?

    That's the kind of thinking that cancels the tea break, just because the Russians have launched 2500 warhead nuclear first strike.
    That would be silly.

    After all, you can’t have your tea break after the warheads have hit. You need to get it in first.
    And if there is no defence against those warheads, what more useful could you be doing?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898



    The government will almost certainly have better figures. Deaths aren’t included in the public figures until relatives have been notified. But the hospitals will presumably have privately reported to the government the actual numbers well before then.

    I confess I'm still hugely cautious over these figures. Confirmed vases still increasing by nearly 5% per day which suggests the virus is still going strong - is anyone applying a ratio for known cases to unknown cases to get a sense of how many actual cases there are?

    I'm of the view as cases fall and capacity becomes available the urgent non-Covid patients need to have some priority with the rescheduling of cancelled procedures vital and if we have some spare capactity why not keep it running to clear the backlog and help those who have had to suffer because NHS resources have been required elsewhere.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
    Exactly
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    It was the equivalent of Mao Tse Tung's attempt to get peasants to go into steel production. It was a complete joke and most likely driven by a desire to give government cronies (Dyson and Bamford) a free publicity ego trip.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,775

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
    Perhaps so. I think though it's implausible that any big company would risk a sharabang show on this.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    edited April 2020
    Dyson's and others issues with the ventilators, as much as it may be a source of smart arse amusement, isn't good news. Again, ensuring the capacity is there is critical to lifting the relative stasis that the country is in.

    My earlier post mentioning that the govt is likely to look at relaxing things post the May day bank holiday or holding out until the end of May holiday has probably been borne out by the local administration in Northern Ireland holding the current restrictions until the 9th May. I suspect this has already been agreed elsewhere but the bods in Belfast jumped the gun. NI is not considered far behind London in its cycle, a few days at most and the Health Minister here has suggested that the 1st wave projections aren't half as ugly as first thought.

    Bank holidays loom large in thinking. I'm wondering if mentally the politicians and the civil servants fear that if they make moves to relax things before a bank holiday that everyone on their extra day off will just run out and go apeshit and stand next to each other or something.

    The real challenge might be July/August, likely to have many restrictions lifted, holiday season and potentially a gentle run in to things picking up autumn, but there are still a lot of holidays booked.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Pulpstar said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
    Not how it works. Anyone with a miniscule understanding of medical device manufacture would know this was nonsense, and I suspect there must have been plenty of people who would have told them so . It was comic book propaganda at best and a PR stunt for cronies at worst. Take your pick.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,241

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    If the thinking was a higher peak in June, then emergency ventilators arriving then was necessary to make that work. Once you accept that "as many cases as possible this summer to build immunity, with as much emergency healthcare as we can procure" has been replaced by "keep the cases down while we work out the next step" then the needs change.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Charles said:

    Bottlebanks - do we think we should still be using them?

    Or should I save them to throw at passing cyclists?

    I’d be impressed if you could throw a bottle bank at a passing cyclist
    Could be a new post-pandemic sport. Higher points for hitting one that is in full on lycra
    As a cyclist I find that offensive.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,222
    Can someone help me with this quiz question: "Ignoring Tony Blair, who was the last labour leader to win a general election to become Prime Minister? "

    I think Harold Wilson?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Dyson provides update in marketing speak - No other Ventilator commissioned from scratch by the Govt has more NHS approved numbers than ours!!!

    Or weve got just as many as JCB and F1 combined past the rigorous NHS tests
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Checking Flightradar24, there is not a single A380 in the air - and only one 346 (Iranian airline) - my two favourite aircraft. Plenty of 747 - almost all of them cargo. Ironically about half a dozen of the original Airbus wide bodies - the A300 are in the air hauling cargo.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Omnium said:

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
    Perhaps so. I think though it's implausible that any big company would risk a sharabang show on this.
    Oh they most definitely will, particularly when led by an egotist like Dyson. He probably arrogantly thought it would be as easy as a vacuum cleaner. The main difference that Mr Dyson clearly doesn't understand is that a human life is not dependent upon a cordless bagless vac!!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,999

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    But just like Brexit, if you believe hard enough, they'll work.

    https://youtu.be/glnm2J7qsEg
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Yokes said:

    Dyson's and others issues with the ventilators, as much as it may be a source of smart arse amusement, isn't good news. Again, ensuring the capacity is there is critical to lifting the relative stasis that the country is in.

    My earlier post mentioning that the govt is likely to look at relaxing things post the May day bank holiday or holding out until the end of May holiday has probably been borne out by the local administration in Northern Ireland holding the current restrictions until the 9th May. I suspect this has already been agreed elsewhere but the bods in Belfast jumped the gun. NI is not considered far behind London in its cycle, a few days at most and the Health Minister here has suggested that the 1st wave projections aren't half as ugly as first thought.

    Bank holidays loom large in thinking. I'm wondering if mentally the politicians and the civil servants fear that if they make moves to relax things before a bank holiday that everyone on their extra day off will just run out and go apeshit and stand next to each other or something.

    The real challenge might be July/August, likely to have many restrictions lifted, holiday season and potentially a gentle run in to things picking up autumn, but there are still a lot of holidays booked.

    I could see May 8th becoming a joint celebration of two kinds of deliverance - one from war in 1945 and another from coronavirus in 2020.

    A little overblown perhaps but I could see the Govenrment trying to roll the two events into one symbolically - perhaps the Thursday night clapping will be Friday lunchtime clapping that week.

    The weekend and restrictions eased from Monday morning.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    edited April 2020
    stodge said:



    The government will almost certainly have better figures. Deaths aren’t included in the public figures until relatives have been notified. But the hospitals will presumably have privately reported to the government the actual numbers well before then.

    I confess I'm still hugely cautious over these figures. Confirmed vases still increasing by nearly 5% per day which suggests the virus is still going strong - is anyone applying a ratio for known cases to unknown cases to get a sense of how many actual cases there are?

    I'm of the view as cases fall and capacity becomes available the urgent non-Covid patients need to have some priority with the rescheduling of cancelled procedures vital and if we have some spare capactity why not keep it running to clear the backlog and help those who have had to suffer because NHS resources have been required elsewhere.
    Actually no, if it is 5% it is good at this time. It appears a common pattern is 35% per day, 21-22%, 13% and then 8%. Its a remarkably consistent progression that many European countries have followed in their curve. Given the contagious nature of this thing, 5% growth is very manageable from a public health perspective. Sustained 35% and 20% odd percent most definitely not.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Have we drafted Dyson and JCB in to ramp up testing yet?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,205
    The new boys (F1 consortium, Dyson perhaps, Musk in the states) seem to be producing CPAPs but who have we orderede the heavy duty *real* ventilators from ?
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335
    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    Dyson's and others issues with the ventilators, as much as it may be a source of smart arse amusement, isn't good news. Again, ensuring the capacity is there is critical to lifting the relative stasis that the country is in.

    My earlier post mentioning that the govt is likely to look at relaxing things post the May day bank holiday or holding out until the end of May holiday has probably been borne out by the local administration in Northern Ireland holding the current restrictions until the 9th May. I suspect this has already been agreed elsewhere but the bods in Belfast jumped the gun. NI is not considered far behind London in its cycle, a few days at most and the Health Minister here has suggested that the 1st wave projections aren't half as ugly as first thought.

    Bank holidays loom large in thinking. I'm wondering if mentally the politicians and the civil servants fear that if they make moves to relax things before a bank holiday that everyone on their extra day off will just run out and go apeshit and stand next to each other or something.

    The real challenge might be July/August, likely to have many restrictions lifted, holiday season and potentially a gentle run in to things picking up autumn, but there are still a lot of holidays booked.

    I could see May 8th becoming a joint celebration of two kinds of deliverance - one from war in 1945 and another from coronavirus in 2020.

    A little overblown perhaps but I could see the Govenrment trying to roll the two events into one symbolically - perhaps the Thursday night clapping will be Friday lunchtime clapping that week.

    The weekend and restrictions eased from Monday morning.
    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,816
    edited April 2020
    kle4 said:

    On the previous thread some people were commenting on a particularly large range of predicted results.
    The largest range I know of involves Graham’s Number. When it was first published in the early 70s it was then the largest number ever used in a mathematical proof. It is a number so large the the visible universe is too small to write out the number which is the number of digits needed to write out the number. If you could somehow know the number then the information contained in it would cause your brain to collapse as a black hole (and that is not an exaggeration).
    This was not the answer to the problem though, it was nearly the upper bound. The lower bound was...



    3.

    Graham's number is so large that any physics-based analogies massively understate its scale
    For anybody who wants to know more here is a video with Graham himself explaining it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuigptwlVHo
    I haven't the slightest clue what mathematicians mean even when they explain it.
    When i have trouble sleeping I try to imagine the magnitude of Graham's number rather than count sheep -It is actually mindblowing how big it is .Each time I think about it I realise it is bigger than before. Although there are bigger numbers - look at the Numberphile video on TREE(3) which is bigger than Grahams Number and also mindblowing.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Pulpstar said:

    The new boys (F1 consortium, Dyson perhaps, Musk in the states) seem to be producing CPAPs but who have we orderede the heavy duty *real* ventilators from ?

    Musk is in partnership with Medtronic, one of the world's biggest and leading medical device manufacturers. He is basically manufacturing their products in his facility. Don't know how the F1 consortium is going, but I know they have been adapting their tech to medical device applications for some time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    edited April 2020
    Yokes said:


    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

    Yes so on Monday May 11th small shops re-open, perhaps some construction and some schools with the next phase after the Bank Holiday later in the month with Monday June 1st the next big relaxation.

    Social distancing to remain "official" but increasingly more honoured in the breach than the observance and the restrictions remaining for the vulnerable for perhaps another month - just some back-of-an-envelope thoughts.

  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    Have we drafted Dyson and JCB in to ramp up testing yet?

    yea, cos there can't be much difference between making a qPCR diagnostic device and a vacuum cleaner or a digger can there? I mean why shouldn't we ask them to try? Perhaps the chemical reagent can be brewed in a Weatherspoons pub? That'd be really plucky!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Captain Tom passes £8 million....

    When does he get promoted?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1

    Presumably Govt allowed JCB and Dyson to take over all testing for 1 day!!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Ba-doom tish!

    Still a bit raw for me after, we had to can the Dart Music Festival in May....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Was speaking to a nurse yesterday. For some departments its very quiet all their normal patients have been cancelled. Other areas "its like a warzone".

    From what Hancock just said i dont really understand how it can be like a warzone sounds like there are plenty of excess beds
    Local anomalies? Specialisation of hospitals?
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    Dyson's and others issues with the ventilators, as much as it may be a source of smart arse amusement, isn't good news. Again, ensuring the capacity is there is critical to lifting the relative stasis that the country is in.

    My earlier post mentioning that the govt is likely to look at relaxing things post the May day bank holiday or holding out until the end of May holiday has probably been borne out by the local administration in Northern Ireland holding the current restrictions until the 9th May. I suspect this has already been agreed elsewhere but the bods in Belfast jumped the gun. NI is not considered far behind London in its cycle, a few days at most and the Health Minister here has suggested that the 1st wave projections aren't half as ugly as first thought.

    Bank holidays loom large in thinking. I'm wondering if mentally the politicians and the civil servants fear that if they make moves to relax things before a bank holiday that everyone on their extra day off will just run out and go apeshit and stand next to each other or something.

    The real challenge might be July/August, likely to have many restrictions lifted, holiday season and potentially a gentle run in to things picking up autumn, but there are still a lot of holidays booked.

    I could see May 8th becoming a joint celebration of two kinds of deliverance - one from war in 1945 and another from coronavirus in 2020.

    A little overblown perhaps but I could see the Govenrment trying to roll the two events into one symbolically - perhaps the Thursday night clapping will be Friday lunchtime clapping that week.

    The weekend and restrictions eased from Monday morning.
    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

    MayDay is before the 8th?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Have we drafted Dyson and JCB in to ramp up testing yet?

    yea, cos there can't be much difference between making a qPCR diagnostic device and a vacuum cleaner or a digger can there? I mean why shouldn't we ask them to try? Perhaps the chemical reagent can be brewed in a Weatherspoons pub? That'd be really plucky!
    Top post
  • BannedinnParisBannedinnParis Posts: 1,884
    Pulpstar said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
    who didn't?

    likewise that BBC chart
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Captain Tom on £8.73m - through £9m by the news tonight, through £10m for breakfast?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Very good.

    One of your better efforts.

    We must meet up again post lockdown
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Have we drafted Dyson and JCB in to ramp up testing yet?

    yea, cos there can't be much difference between making a qPCR diagnostic device and a vacuum cleaner or a digger can there? I mean why shouldn't we ask them to try? Perhaps the chemical reagent can be brewed in a Weatherspoons pub? That'd be really plucky!
    Sadly this sort of fantasy Boys Own thinking seems to characterise this government's understanding of reality. Cummings seems to think he's some of STEM superguru but really...
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Stodge,

    Those suggestions for easing the lockdown look like a good guess. As good as anyone else's..
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    If the thinking was a higher peak in June, then emergency ventilators arriving then was necessary to make that work. Once you accept that "as many cases as possible this summer to build immunity, with as much emergency healthcare as we can procure" has been replaced by "keep the cases down while we work out the next step" then the needs change.
    The government changed the specification during the prototyping phase. Strangely, this meant that machine manufactured to the original spec didn't meet the new one. So the people building ventilators are updating their designs....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270 actually gives a better update on what is going on in the area.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335

    Yokes said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:

    Dyson's and others issues with the ventilators, as much as it may be a source of smart arse amusement, isn't good news. Again, ensuring the capacity is there is critical to lifting the relative stasis that the country is in.

    My earlier post mentioning that the govt is likely to look at relaxing things post the May day bank holiday or holding out until the end of May holiday has probably been borne out by the local administration in Northern Ireland holding the current restrictions until the 9th May. I suspect this has already been agreed elsewhere but the bods in Belfast jumped the gun. NI is not considered far behind London in its cycle, a few days at most and the Health Minister here has suggested that the 1st wave projections aren't half as ugly as first thought.

    Bank holidays loom large in thinking. I'm wondering if mentally the politicians and the civil servants fear that if they make moves to relax things before a bank holiday that everyone on their extra day off will just run out and go apeshit and stand next to each other or something.

    The real challenge might be July/August, likely to have many restrictions lifted, holiday season and potentially a gentle run in to things picking up autumn, but there are still a lot of holidays booked.

    I could see May 8th becoming a joint celebration of two kinds of deliverance - one from war in 1945 and another from coronavirus in 2020.

    A little overblown perhaps but I could see the Govenrment trying to roll the two events into one symbolically - perhaps the Thursday night clapping will be Friday lunchtime clapping that week.

    The weekend and restrictions eased from Monday morning.
    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

    MayDay is before the 8th?
    I refer to the bank holiday day which is the 8th this year.
  • The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Very good.

    One of your better efforts.

    We must meet up again post lockdown
    It'll be great to meet up again.
  • The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Ba-doom tish!

    Still a bit raw for me after, we had to can the Dart Music Festival in May....
    Sorry.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,601
    stodge said:

    Yokes said:


    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

    Yes so on Monday May 11th small shops re-open, perhaps some construction and some schools with the next phase after the Bank Holiday later in the month with Monday June 1st the next big relaxation.

    Social distancing to remain "official" but increasingly more honoured in the breach than the observance and the restrictions remaining for the vulnerable for perhaps another month - just some back-of-an-envelope thoughts.

    I think schools are likely to open on or about 4th May.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    If the thinking was a higher peak in June, then emergency ventilators arriving then was necessary to make that work. Once you accept that "as many cases as possible this summer to build immunity, with as much emergency healthcare as we can procure" has been replaced by "keep the cases down while we work out the next step" then the needs change.
    The government changed the specification during the prototyping phase. Strangely, this meant that machine manufactured to the original spec didn't meet the new one. So the people building ventilators are updating their designs....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270 actually gives a better update on what is going on in the area.
    I imagine that's what has happened to the Dyson design as well, they probably don't need the new spec either.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    Alistair said:
    I literally had that this afternoon with an uncle. It's extremely frustrating.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,250
    edited April 2020
    ..
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    edited April 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
    who didn't?

    likewise that BBC chart
    You mean the one i posted at 7.08pm?

    And this is one of many traditional manufacturers suggesting he could ramp up production if asked from weeks ago. 5 LIVE have had several on but you can trawl back as i am too busy making up fake bbc news charts

    https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ventilators-parts-manufacturer-dyson-airbus-boris-johnson-2518900
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    MaxPB said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    If the thinking was a higher peak in June, then emergency ventilators arriving then was necessary to make that work. Once you accept that "as many cases as possible this summer to build immunity, with as much emergency healthcare as we can procure" has been replaced by "keep the cases down while we work out the next step" then the needs change.
    The government changed the specification during the prototyping phase. Strangely, this meant that machine manufactured to the original spec didn't meet the new one. So the people building ventilators are updating their designs....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52274270 actually gives a better update on what is going on in the area.
    I imagine that's what has happened to the Dyson design as well, they probably don't need the new spec either.
    It happened to everyone making new ventilators - TBF the government warned everybody that requirements weren't locked down.

    As we saw in the last thread (the not-like HAPE thing) - interesting stuff is coming out about the effects of COVID19 all the time.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,729
    Charles said:

    Captain Tom passes £8 million....

    When does he get promoted?
    If he is ex Army won't he already have the courtesy one rank up.promotion on retirement ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    "the NHS decided this relatively simple model was no longer required because the treatment of Covid-19 patients required more sophisticated devices than it was originally thought were needed."

    The spec changed as the experience with treatment changed. Nobody is saying it was wasted effort.

    Mercedes at Brixworth producing 1,000 CPAP units a day is a solid outcome.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Captain Tom on £8.73m - through £9m by the news tonight, through £10m for breakfast?

    I think he will get a minimum of £15m now
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Chris Whitty thinks deaths not caught up with weekend BH lag yet if i heard right.

    Extraordinary that in the midst of a mass death event where a large portion of the economy is shut down there is lack of reporting resources at the weekend / Bank Holiday. These are massively important figures, not some incidental.
    The government will almost certainly have better figures. Deaths aren’t included in the public figures until relatives have been notified. But the hospitals will presumably have privately reported to the government the actual numbers well before then.
    How long can it take to phone and tell the relative that the person they waved off to hospital is dead?

    I'd be hugely underwhelmed if my wife died in hospital and I wasn't told until 3 or 4 days later because it was a weekend.

    I can understand there are difficulties in sudden deaths in finding the relatives but not in cases like this where they presumably have had some time before death to locate the relative.
    I thought this was “fake news” anyway? Names can’t be released until families are informed but they are included in the aggregate numbers straight away.

    (FWIW it look about an hour for the hospital to call my Mum. I assume there are various formalities they need to do on their end first)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Which existing ventilator manufacturers were/are twiddling their thumbs?

    Maquet, Draeger, Smiths, Hamilton and GE certainly aren’t but I don’t have visibility on the others
  • BantermanBanterman Posts: 287
    Nigelb said:
    Who are you to say such a thing
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609

    Captain Tom on £8.73m - through £9m by the news tonight, through £10m for breakfast?

    I think he will get a minimum of £15m now
    Less than half a million people have donated. That is PATHETIC Britain. Where are the other 66m of you? Skinflints! Pull your finger out - we want £100m for his 100th birthday, settle for nothing less.... ;)
  • DensparkDenspark Posts: 68
    edited April 2020

    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1

    hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.
    By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056

    or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.

    Or the BBC has screwed it up.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    For IDS and those on here who think that hydrogen cars are a better idea than battery ones. A comparison of efficiencies is in this article
    https://electrek.co/2020/04/15/porsche-rd-boss-speaks-about-tesla-batteries-macan-ev-and-why-hydrogen-fails/
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Bottlebanks - do we think we should still be using them?

    Or should I save them to throw at passing cyclists?

    I’d be impressed if you could throw a bottle bank at a passing cyclist
    Could be a new post-pandemic sport. Higher points for hitting one that is in full on lycra
    As a cyclist I find that offensive.
    I agree. Full on lycra is unacceptable in any polite society
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    The NHS self diagnosis website data peaked on the day of lockdown, so with a 7 day median time to symptoms, it looks like transmission peaked before lockdown started and thus pre-lockdown common sense self policing was sufficient to get R0 below 1. As such I'm pretty sanguine that we can exit lockdown without causing an immediate 2nd peak unless people act like cretins about it without any self restraint.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,370
    Denspark said:

    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1

    hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.
    By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056

    or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.

    Or the BBC has screwed it up.
    On they employed former LibDem bar charters?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    The new boys (F1 consortium, Dyson perhaps, Musk in the states) seem to be producing CPAPs but who have we orderede the heavy duty *real* ventilators from ?

    Smiths Medical in Luton
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    HYUFD said:
    Schoolboy error. Like, every enforcement agency on the planet is going to think of the street value of those masks.....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,149
    HYUFD said:
    Oh, drug dealers, such creative types.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    Banterman said:

    Nigelb said:
    Who are you to say such a thing
    A real good looking boy, of course.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Wham! It’s a tragedy that you Crush-ed that pun in there
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Denspark said:

    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1

    hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.
    By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056

    or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.

    Or the BBC has screwed it up.
    It does look ridiculous i agree.

    Either DHSC or BBC have surely made an error in the bar chart
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    More substantively...

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/trump-threatens-defund-world-health-organization/610030/
    ... to weigh these reasons, good and bad—the WHO’s sins against its virtues—is to go back to playing the sucker’s game, and to have an excellent view of Abdul-Jabbar’s armpit as the basketball hurtles overhead toward the hoop. Cutting off money to the WHO is not about policy. It is misdirection: Look here, not there, because you are calling attention to something you are not welcome to see.

    The crisis in the United States has passed the point where literally everyone in the country feels personally affected—grieving for the dead or dying; in fear of poverty or hunger; robbed of beloved cultural figures; or just stuck at home. The question Are you better off than you were four years ago? is a sick joke, and Trump knows that it is going to be at his expense, electorally speaking. Naturally, he responds with the tactic that has served him well before: Swap a question with an answer that damns him for one with a complicated, controversial answer that tends to damn someone, anyone, else. Watch CBS’s Paula Reid at Monday’s press conference, asking the first question: “What did you do with the month of February?” Why don’t we have extensive testing capabilities, and why are hospitals still scrambling for the gear and equipment they need to protect health-care workers and save patients?

    Trump, caught having completely bungled the only issue anyone will remember him for, will do anything to escape prosecutorial inquiries like these. He will be pleased, instead, to field complaints about his treatment of the WHO. The tactic he is using is one that has fooled too many people, too many times....


  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,609
    Charles said:

    The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Wham! It’s a tragedy that you Crush-ed that pun in there
    Missed an opportunity to get in the Scone Roses....
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:
    Less than 1% of his (almost entirely inherited) total wealth.
  • HYUFD said:
    Less than 1% of his (almost entirely inherited) total wealth.
    Still more than what Brenda and her family have given I think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,225
    kle4 said:
    We sure they weren’t mask smugglers, hiding them in the coke ?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,898
    Andy_JS said:

    stodge said:

    Yokes said:


    I think nothing gets lifted until after. Announcements on business and commerce yes before but no actual activation until after May Day.

    Yes so on Monday May 11th small shops re-open, perhaps some construction and some schools with the next phase after the Bank Holiday later in the month with Monday June 1st the next big relaxation.

    Social distancing to remain "official" but increasingly more honoured in the breach than the observance and the restrictions remaining for the vulnerable for perhaps another month - just some back-of-an-envelope thoughts.

    I think schools are likely to open on or about 4th May.
    That would be a four day week - perhaps and it's interesting to see Denmark and Germany have opened infant schools first so maybe some nurseries but I still think a big national celebration/sigh of relief/thanksgiving (delete as appropriate) on May 8th and then a sense of a slight return to normality as of the 11th.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
    Exactly
    Here's what Musk did.
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-ventilator-covid-19/
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Denspark said:

    For those earlier asking about testing on 12/4/20 this is what BBC said source supposedly DHSC

    https://twitter.com/StaveleyMWFCSo1/status/1250485208081674245/photo/1

    hmm according to the DHSC by 9am on the 12th they'd done 352,974 tests.
    By 9am on the 13th they had done 367,667 tests.

    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249345659355922432
    https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1249693469733421056

    or a difference of 14k cases. I guess they all could have been done between midnight and 9am on the 13th but that seems unlikely.

    Or the BBC has screwed it up.
    The same BBC news item said there had been over 16,000 yesterday again the bar chart seems inconsistent with that.

    Could be people rather than tests i suppose but chart says tests
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335

    Pulpstar said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
    who didn't?

    likewise that BBC chart
    You mean the one i posted at 7.08pm?

    And this is one of many traditional manufacturers suggesting he could ramp up production if asked from weeks ago. 5 LIVE have had several on but you can trawl back as i am too busy making up fake bbc news charts

    https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ventilators-parts-manufacturer-dyson-airbus-boris-johnson-2518900
    And who's issue is this, the government, who were told they needed tens of thousands of the things at the outset or the civil servants who actually execute it?

    Its going to get buried but I have had now three situations pointed out to me over here about how civil service procurement, local govt workers who are important in community effort and operational management have been seriously poor in their flexibility or taking the piss who are because they couldn't get the finger out. I suspect other parts of the UK are no different in having these paragons of inability.

    We are dealing with an unknown, less than couple of months of data and understanding and we, like many countries didn't have a great picture of where this was going to go. We still do not. Government has thrown the kitchen sink at some key areas in the hope of as much mud sticking as possible, which is exactly how shit works sometimes. As I understand it wasn't, for example, govt ministers who at first wanted testing restricted to certain Public Health labs for example, it was the civil servants.

    The politicians are not all at fault here, they direct they do not execute. The civil service will have as much to account for as the politicians and the political advisors. So will parts of the NHS who will have lessons to learn.

    No one needs persecuting for making errors here first time around. Incompetence or sheer inability to think outside the box on the other hand deserves a kick in the arse.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    The Devon & Cornwall musical festival has been cancelled.

    Nothing to do with Covid-19, they couldn't decide which to put on first, The Jam or Cream.

    Very good.

    One of your better efforts.

    We must meet up again post lockdown
    It'll be great to meet up again.
    Dont know where dont know when but i know we'll ...................................
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Pulpstar said:

    Its not just Dyson either. The Govts great egg race approach appears to have been folly

    https://www.ft.com/content/e447cab3-8b6b-47ed-bf69-3a43140a42de

    If they hadn't bothered, you would be here 24/7 screaming "WHY DIDN'T THEY AT LEAST TRY???"
    No I was shouting at the time why start from scratch when current manufacturers were twiddling their thumbs saying they could scale up

    Another waste of time and resource.

    Nice publicity at the time but ultimately another compete and absolute failure that you didnt need to be very clever to forecast.
    Oh ? I just took it as read that we'd use existing manufacturers AND then the Dyson stuff on top.
    who didn't?

    likewise that BBC chart
    You mean the one i posted at 7.08pm?

    And this is one of many traditional manufacturers suggesting he could ramp up production if asked from weeks ago. 5 LIVE have had several on but you can trawl back as i am too busy making up fake bbc news charts

    https://inews.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-ventilators-parts-manufacturer-dyson-airbus-boris-johnson-2518900
    The article says:

    a) he’s been involved in the Nightingale build out

    b) he’s a parts manufacturer and has to wait until the devices were sorted out so they knew what parts they needed to build

    You seem to be suggesting that the government should have ordered parts on spec?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Captain Tom passes £8 million....

    When does he get promoted?
    If he is ex Army won't he already have the courtesy one rank up.promotion on retirement ?
    Depends on ground control’s views I suppose
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?

    I see Dyson ventilators have so far failed to pass safety tests

    What a surprise

    Dysons suck?
    A disgusting attempt at a PR stunt that diverted attention away from more serious efforts. The government might have better used valuable time in discussions with our very large pharma biotech and diagnostic sector to work out ways of ramping up testing. Instead they chose to give publicity to Brexit supporting showboaters such as Dyson and Bamford of JCB, pretending they can magic up ventilators (of which they have zero experience) rather than speaking to proper ventilator manufacturers and getting them to contract their products under licence to serious medical device manufacturers.
    Exactly
    Suggest you two crack open a bottle and celebrate.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    HYUFD said:
    Less than 1% of his (almost entirely inherited) total wealth.
    Still he didnt have to give it

    He should be applauded IMO

    Just not quite as loudly as Tom
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,482

    Bottlebanks - do we think we should still be using them?

    Or should I save them to throw at passing cyclists?

    You're throwing bottle banks at passing cyclists? Remind me never to upset you...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,119
    edited April 2020
    Apparently Mercedes have already made 10,000 CPAP devices. They are making this things like they are doing a pitstop.

    In early testing, on around 40 patients, who would otherwise have gone on a ventilator, found half were able to go home within 14 days of admission to hospital.

    There is evidence from places like NY that putting people on traditional ventilators should be avoided at all costs, as some suggestion that actually worsens their situation (although obviously if they are even considering that you are in a really really bad way).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:
    Less than 1% of his (almost entirely inherited) total wealth.
    So f*cking what? He didn’t have to give anything.
This discussion has been closed.