rcs1000 said:

There's a new South Carolina poll out from Change Research:

Biden      23%
Sanders    23%
Steyer     20%
Buttigieg  15%
Warren      9%
Klobuchar   8%

Alistair said:

rcs1000 said:

There's a new South Carolina poll out from Change Research:

Biden      23%
Sanders    23%
Steyer     20%
Buttigieg  15%
Warren      9%
Klobuchar   8%

Dreadful for my girl.

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

egg said:

HYUFD said:

Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it

The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.

We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.

The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so

Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.

Yes, they are out today.

Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421

Pret A Manger on Picadilly is offering £13/hour.

If you work at Pret, you can get a visa.

The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."

Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)

But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.

As Manager or Assistant Manager https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Pret-A-Manger/salaries

ydoethur said:

Alistair said:

rcs1000 said:

There's a new South Carolina poll out from Change Research:

Biden      23%
Sanders    23%
Steyer     20%
Buttigieg  15%
Warren      9%
Klobuchar   8%

Dreadful for my girl.

Klobuchurn?

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

egg said:

HYUFD said:

Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it

The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.

We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.

The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so

Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.

Yes, they are out today.

Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421

Pret A Manger on Picadilly is offering £13/hour.

If you work at Pret, you can get a visa.

The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."

Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)

But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.

As Manager or Assistant Manager https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Pret-A-Manger/salaries

Foxy said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

egg said:

HYUFD said:

Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it

The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.

We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.

The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so

Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.

Yes, they are out today.

Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421

Pret A Manger on Picadilly is offering £13/hour.

If you work at Pret, you can get a visa.

The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."

Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)

But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.

As Manager or Assistant Manager https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Pret-A-Manger/salaries

One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.

HYUFD said:

Overseas workers need 70 points under these plans to come here, unskilled work earning under £20 000 gives 0 points

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

Overseas workers need 70 points under these plans to come here, unskilled work earning under £20 000 gives 0 points

Offer of a job at appropriate skill level for the applicant - 40 pts
Salary of £26,000 or more - 20 pts
Speaks English - 10 pts

It's all there: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement

Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.

But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.

noneoftheabove said:

BluestBlue said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1230178832633729030?s=20

This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.

So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...

Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.

(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).

rcs1000 said:

Foxy said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

egg said:

HYUFD said:

Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it

The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.

We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.

The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so

Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.

Yes, they are out today.

Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51550421

Pret A Manger on Picadilly is offering £13/hour.

If you work at Pret, you can get a visa.

As Manager or Assistant Manager https://www.indeed.co.uk/cmp/Pret-A-Manger/salaries

One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.

I think that's by design. The aim is to encourage British firms (and hospitals) to prioritise the recruitment of lower skilled British workers.

That's not a bad thing.

NickPalmer said:

noneoftheabove said:

BluestBlue said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1230178832633729030?s=20

This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.

So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...

Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.

(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).

I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer

NickPalmer said:

noneoftheabove said:

BluestBlue said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1230178832633729030?s=20

This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.

So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...

Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.

(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).

I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves

And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.

Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves

And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.

Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.

The “eat grass” school of Brexit.

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves

And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.

Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.

The “eat grass” school of Brexit.

Too clever for me, I just dont like selling out the poor of our country to big corporates

So you’d make everyone including the poor worse off?

BluestBlue said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer

Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.

isam said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves

rcs1000 said:

isam said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

Overseas workers need 70 points under these plans to come here, unskilled work earning under £20 000 gives 0 points

Offer of a job at appropriate skill level for the applicant - 40 pts
Salary of £26,000 or more - 20 pts
Speaks English - 10 pts

It's all there: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement

Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.

But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.

It's protectionism for the lowest earners

Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.

I don't have a problem with these proposals. Indeed, I think they're broadly positive. (Although I prefer my compulsory health insurance one, but that's another story.)

Where I have an issue is with the government tweeting that they will no longer accept British firms importing skilled foreigners when they should be upskilling Brits, when the proposals do - in fact - absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, the proposals are the exact opposite of the tweets. I object to our politicians lying to us.

felix said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.

You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.

TheScreamingEagles said:

For fans of Radiohead and puns, I believe we have one or two on here.

NickPalmer said:

Omnium said:

NickPalmer said:

noneoftheabove said:

BluestBlue said:

HYUFD said:

https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1230178832633729030?s=20

This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.

So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...

Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.

(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).

I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.

English is the local language here in the UK, and it's also a bit more - in fact everything more. Nobody thinks learning Danish is essential when taking a high-flying job in Denmark, but everybody thinks knowing good English is, and for that job in Denmark.

Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.

English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.

Yes, I broadly agree with you - we're lucky that the global language is the one we learned by accident of birth. I get a bit contrarian when I hear people get on their high horse about it - "OF COURSE everyone should learn English, or they're just layabouts"

eadric said:

rcs1000 said:

eadric said:

rcs1000 said:

eadric said:

Sandpit said:

That's really worrying, to announce five deaths but no other reports or details of infections. Are there dozens infected in Iran, or did these people actually die of something else?

Here in the UAE there have been nine cases, 8 of which have now been discharged. All were Chinese or had flown back from China.

It seems l strain doesn't guarantee immunity to another."

https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-risk-of-reinfection-2020-2?r=US&IR=T

The possibility of reinfection adds a whole new dimension.

All this points (to me) to Coronavirus being massively more prevalent than we thought. And therefore that mortality rates are actually pretty low.

Except that there is another possibility. People are dying of coronavirus everywhere... but the lack of test kits and knowledge means that these deaths are being written off as pneumonia, old age, the ague, the bloody Fluxe, etc

So the mortality rate might indeed be 2.3%, or even higher

It's being so cheery wot makes me so popular

I don't think that follows. If it's really prevalent and people were dropping dead of Corona virus left, right and centre, don't you think we might notice a slight rise in the number of people in the obituaries column.

Fair point. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Where is TimT?

Obvious question is, do we always do blood tests if some old person dies of pneumonia? Do they do this in India, China, Africa?

Death rates might have risen unnoticed, in old people, in poorer countries. That seems possible, but again I will defer to experts, if there are any.

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?

contrarian said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer

Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.

Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.

Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population

You need to move on

Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.

The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?

Foxy said:

felix said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.

You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.

On the contrary, @AlastairMeeks is a pensions specialist, and shortly to join the pensioner ranks himself.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

If immigration gets overly restrictive and labour gets tight the cost of care will increase. That’s going to hit the old rather than the young. The young benefit from higher wages and possibly even more interest in training them and increasing their productivity. A reduction in immigration may well also reduce the pressure on housing reducing the capital value of houses again benefiting the young over the old. The idea this is all to favour the old is nonsense.

But hey, whatever rocks your boat.

I think it inevitable that there will be both cost pressures and staffing pressures on social care will dramatically increase over the next 15 years, even before immigration changes. The population growth forecast for the next 15 years, even with current immigration, is of several million over 65s with no real change in the working age population. The cohort of Gen X is simply a lot smaller than the Boomers.

The cost pressures are bearable with more spending, either by state or individual, the quantity and quality of staffing are much more problematic. I expect more scandals and bankruptcies in the sector.

In the hospitality sector, I wouldn't expect so much problem, marginal businesses in the pub, restaurant, cafe and hotel sector will simply become non viable and close. In agriculture, I expect it will be simple too, we will import produce rather than workers.

llef said:

eadric said:

rcs1000 said:

eadric said:

rcs1000 said:

eadric said:

Sandpit said:

That's really worrying, to announce five deaths but no other reports or details of infections. Are there dozens infected in Iran, or did these people actually die of something else?

Here in the UAE there have been nine cases, 8 of which have now been discharged. All were Chinese or had flown back from China.

It seems l strain doesn't guarantee immunity to another."

https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-coronavirus-risk-of-reinfection-2020-2?r=US&IR=T

The possibility of reinfection adds a whole new dimension.

All this points (to me) to Coronavirus being massively more prevalent than we thought. And therefore that mortality rates are actually pretty low.

Except that there is another possibility. People are dying of coronavirus everywhere... but the lack of test kits and knowledge means that these deaths are being written off as pneumonia, old age, the ague, the bloody Fluxe, etc

So the mortality rate might indeed be 2.3%, or even higher

It's being so cheery wot makes me so popular

I don't think that follows. If it's really prevalent and people were dropping dead of Corona virus left, right and centre, don't you think we might notice a slight rise in the number of people in the obituaries column.

Fair point. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Where is TimT?

Obvious question is, do we always do blood tests if some old person dies of pneumonia? Do they do this in India, China, Africa?

Death rates might have risen unnoticed, in old people, in poorer countries. That seems possible, but again I will defer to experts, if there are any.

no spike in england/wales death rates in week ending 7 FEB at least.
in fact it was quite low (possibly due to mild feb weather.

"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 7 February 2020 (week 6) was 10,986; this represents a decrease of 626 deaths registered in comparison with the previous week (week 5).

The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 11,925."

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/josephmenn/status/1230222669607366657

Foxy said:

contrarian said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

AlastairMeeks said:

BluestBlue said:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/19/tory-points-based-immigration-low-skilled-workers-politics-economy

Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:

'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'

'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'

Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.

Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer

Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.

Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.

Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population

You need to move on

Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.

The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.

Not any more. Neither Priti nor Sajids parents would pass muster under the new system.

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?

TheScreamingEagles said:

https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1230221385676578817
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1230222212885630980

Cyclefree said:

Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.

Am a bit worried.

A long evening ahead.

Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?