That's really worrying, to announce five deaths but no other reports or details of infections. Are there dozens infected in Iran, or did these people actually die of something else?
Here in the UAE there have been nine cases, 8 of which have now been discharged. All were Chinese or had flown back from China.
It seems l strain doesn't guarantee immunity to another."
The possibility of reinfection adds a whole new dimension.
All this points (to me) to Coronavirus being massively more prevalent than we thought. And therefore that mortality rates are actually pretty low.
Except that there is another possibility. People are dying of coronavirus everywhere... but the lack of test kits and knowledge means that these deaths are being written off as pneumonia, old age, the ague, the bloody Fluxe, etc
So the mortality rate might indeed be 2.3%, or even higher
It's being so cheery wot makes me so popular
I don't think that follows. If it's really prevalent and people were dropping dead of Corona virus left, right and centre, don't you think we might notice a slight rise in the number of people in the obituaries column.
Fair point. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Where is TimT?
Obvious question is, do we always do blood tests if some old person dies of pneumonia? Do they do this in India, China, Africa?
Death rates might have risen unnoticed, in old people, in poorer countries. That seems possible, but again I will defer to experts, if there are any.
The USA is starting lab testing of atypical pneumonia to assess prevalence.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
Disagree. You vote according to the rules of the contest. I voted tactically for the Tories to reduce a Labour majority in a very safe Labour seat, which proved to be the case. The outcome I voted for wasn't Boris and I admit no responsibility for his majority in parliament, because I was in no way whatsoever responsible for that. The outcome I voted for was to help Labour towards the thought processes it is now having in the leadership contest. I took a slight risk but I am livably pleased with how that turned out.
I'd probably have opted to go LD in Bedford for vote building.
So who WAS responsible for the Tory majority if not people who voted Tory?
True. I thought you were arguing the converse, and was showing that you could have voted Tory without belonging the group that delivered the majority. The Boris majority was delivered mainly in Midlands and North in seats containing poorish distribution sector small towns and significant rural hinterlands, whose most direct equivalents in the South have unquestionably returned Tories since 2005.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The reason this government is creating this deceit of on policy writing mug across our foreheads.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
Overseas workers need 70 points under these plans to come here, unskilled work earning under £20 000 gives 0 points
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.
Has it ever been mooted that the state services should have an open door policy while private firms have to use a points system?
Not really. Those already here will not be subject to these new rules.
It is not retrospective
How many of them will have applied for "settled status" and how many will keep their heads down, dealing only in cash?
What's to stop people doing both? Plenty of UK citizens try to deal only in cash.
It seems very likely to me that many EU UK residents will fail to apply for settled status but mostly through ignorance or negligence rather than for some nefarious motive.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.
I think that's by design. The aim is to encourage British firms (and hospitals) to prioritise the recruitment of lower skilled British workers.
Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.
But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.
It's protectionism for the lowest earners
Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.
Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.
But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.
It's protectionism for the lowest earners
Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.
I don't have a problem with these proposals. Indeed, I think they're broadly positive. (Although I prefer my compulsory health insurance one, but that's another story.)
Where I have an issue is with the government tweeting that they will no longer accept British firms importing skilled foreigners when they should be upskilling Brits, when the proposals do - in fact - absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, the proposals are the exact opposite of the tweets. I object to our politicians lying to us.
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
I think that's by design. The aim is to encourage British firms (and hospitals) to prioritise the recruitment of lower skilled British workers.
That's not a bad thing.
Yes, it's not restrictive at all. If anything this is how EU migration should have been from the beginning. Must speak the local language and not undercut the local labour force. If the EU had put this in place from the beginning then it would be a much more politically stable bloc.
Universal credit will ensure if they are under 65 and capable of work they will have to do it
The voters may have chosen Bonking Brexit Boris over IRA loving Traitor Corbyn December 2019. But the voters are not the mugs you take them for.
We are not daft. The determination of the government not to measure success of their “historic” “ground breaking” immigration policy says all you need to know. There is no intention to make things better, just fool people into believing this will make things better. Unfortunately the government fails on this simple truth: everyone, from C4 news, to BBC, ITN, SKY, The Mail, The Sun, The Telegraph, everyone, will have an upward curve with a pointy thing half way up saying moment government introduced its points based immigration policy.
The retirement age is also being raised but we now have a Government and a Home Secretary in Priti Patel determined to control immigration in a way not seem since Thatcher's time, that is in large part what the Government won a majority for as part of delivering Brexit and it is now doing so
Have you read the actual immigration proposals? @eadric posted the details the other day.
Yes, they are out today.
Visas only for those earning over £25k a year, except for areas like nursing where those earning over £20k a year can receive them
One of the perverse effects of this system is that international recruitment will be straightforward at higher levels, but impossible at lower levels. The nurses will be immigrants and the HCAs British. It will make a change from the older times with British nurses supported by immigrant assistants.
I think that's by design. The aim is to encourage British firms (and hospitals) to prioritise the recruitment of lower skilled British workers.
That's not a bad thing.
Yes, but to recruit into low skilled jobs, by definition.
In practice the biggest obstacle to international healthcare recruitment is recognition of qualifications. Within the EU/EEA these were automatically recognised, but non EU/EEA often are 6 months or more.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
My daughter and son in law have just returned from a City break to Stockholm and everyone, yes everyone, spoke English
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
I'm not going to pay too much attention to a one pole and especially not for a state tat does not vote for 2 weeks (when some may have puled out) but still.
That would give BS all of the statewide delegates and probably all the delegates from some CD, plus most of the delegates from most of the rest of the CDs
California has 415 delegates in total, including 144 at large delegates.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
English is the local language here in the UK, and it's also a bit more - in fact everything more. Nobody thinks learning Danish is essential when taking a high-flying job in Denmark, but everybody thinks knowing good English is, and for that job in Denmark.
Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.
English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.
The “eat grass” school of Brexit.
Too clever for me, I just dont like selling out the poor of our country to big corporates
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.
The “eat grass” school of Brexit.
Too clever for me, I just dont like selling out the poor of our country to big corporates
So you’d make everyone including the poor worse off?
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
And now we’re going to have a run of the rich getting poorer and the poor getting poorer.
Well we'll have to wait and see about that. But it's better than the status quo, so hey ho.
The “eat grass” school of Brexit.
Too clever for me, I just dont like selling out the poor of our country to big corporates
So you’d make everyone including the poor worse off?
I don't think that will happen, but there are circumstances where rich and poor both being worse off is preferable to the rich getting richer because the poor are getting poorer
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
The earth is being salted by having an immigration policy looser than nations such as Canada and Australia?
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
English is the local language here in the UK, and it's also a bit more - in fact everything more. Nobody thinks learning Danish is essential when taking a high-flying job in Denmark, but everybody thinks knowing good English is, and for that job in Denmark.
Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.
English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.
Yes, I broadly agree with you - we're lucky that the global language is the one we learned by accident of birth. I get a bit contrarian when I hear people get on their high horse about it - "OF COURSE everyone should learn English, or they're just layabouts"
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
It is cyclical; we have had a decent run of the rich getting richer and the poor, poorer because the centrists dislike everyone except themselves
Under 45 educated and hard working have just been screwed by a decade of asset inflation, and the rich getting richer, and are now going to get screwed by a decade of economic self harm and protectionism.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Arguments based on national identity would have been viewed with all around contempt before mass immigration and globalisation. Now? not so much,
Johnson may have expoited the split, but it was the Blair government created the fault lines.
Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.
But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.
It's protectionism for the lowest earners
Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.
I don't have a problem with these proposals. Indeed, I think they're broadly positive. (Although I prefer my compulsory health insurance one, but that's another story.)
Where I have an issue is with the government tweeting that they will no longer accept British firms importing skilled foreigners when they should be upskilling Brits, when the proposals do - in fact - absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, the proposals are the exact opposite of the tweets. I object to our politicians lying to us.
The even more cynical amongst us may have noticed that it creates incentives for firms to spend a lot of money lobbying politicians to gain approved sponsor status and to get their employees defined as shortage occupations. Completely incidental I am sure.
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
English is the local language here in the UK, and it's also a bit more - in fact everything more. Nobody thinks learning Danish is essential when taking a high-flying job in Denmark, but everybody thinks knowing good English is, and for that job in Denmark.
Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.
English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.
Yes, I broadly agree with you - we're lucky that the global language is the one we learned by accident of birth. I get a bit contrarian when I hear people get on their high horse about it - "OF COURSE everyone should learn English, or they're just layabouts"
I broadly agree with you! I dont say they should, but is it unfair to say that anyone who hasn't learned English is likely to be a bit of a layabout?
I think that in the immediate aftermath of the South Carolina primary, Barack Obama is going to be calling all the Presidential candidates who aren't called Bernie Sanders and will be telling them:
Your campaign is not viable right now. You need to come to an accommodation with the other members of the moderate lane, and you need to come to it now. If you don't do this, I will be forced to pick a candidate to endorse. And you don't want me to do that.
If immigration gets overly restrictive and labour gets tight the cost of care will increase. That’s going to hit the old rather than the young. The young benefit from higher wages and possibly even more interest in training them and increasing their productivity. A reduction in immigration may well also reduce the pressure on housing reducing the capital value of houses again benefiting the young over the old. The idea this is all to favour the old is nonsense.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
You need to move on
Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.
The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.
Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.
But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.
It's protectionism for the lowest earners
Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.
I don't have a problem with these proposals. Indeed, I think they're broadly positive. (Although I prefer my compulsory health insurance one, but that's another story.)
Where I have an issue is with the government tweeting that they will no longer accept British firms importing skilled foreigners when they should be upskilling Brits, when the proposals do - in fact - absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, the proposals are the exact opposite of the tweets. I object to our politicians lying to us.
The even more cynical amongst us may have noticed that it creates incentives for firms to spend a lot of money lobbying politicians to gain approved sponsor status and to get their employees defined as shortage occupations. Completely incidental I am sure.
Which is why my compulsory health insurance proposal is the better option. Dead simple to implement. Raises revenue for the Treasury. Involves exactly no bureaucrats making arbitrary decisions over whether a firm should be approved or what are shortage occupations.
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
It depends what you mean by control.
I want us to control immigration so we allow in people who want to work hard, play fair, contribute to society, pay taxes and not claim benefits. If we do all that I will consider it controlled.
I don't want us to control immigration by targetting some arbitrary number of people regardless of quality, wages or ability.
The government has said they're going to control migration by aspects of quality but they're not targeting numbers. That seems entirely rational to me.
Its worth noting that Australia (and Canada) have points based immigration systems that allow in quality migrants but not set to some arbitrary cap below ours. They in fact allow in more migrants per capita than we do.
For fans of Radiohead and puns, I believe we have one or two on here.
I came up with some Queen ones a few years ago:
It's a Hard Loaf Radio Rum-Baba Flesh Under Pressure Cooker It's a Rind of Magic Breadlong We are the Champignons I want to Bake Free Bun Vision Spread your Chicken Wings Seven Seas of Rhye Bread You don't Raspberry Fool Me Now I'm Beer Good Old Fashioned Liver Boy Another One Bites the Crust Bakethru'
The points system is "could you work at Pret on Picadilly?", "yes", "here you go..."
Now, I happen to think the government's proposal is an excellent one. (Although I'd prefer my health insurance based one, because it would raise valuable revenue for the government.)
But to claim with a serious face that these proposals are designed to control immigration is absurd. It's designed to allow the government to claim that they're controlling immigration.
It depends what you mean by control.
I want us to control immigration so we allow in people who want to work hard, play fair, contribute to society, pay taxes and not claim benefits. If we do all that I will consider it controlled.
I don't want us to control immigration by targetting some arbitrary number of people regardless of quality, wages or ability.
The government has said they're going to control migration by aspects of quality but they're not targeting numbers. That seems entirely rational to me.
Its worth noting that Australia (and Canada) have points based immigration systems that allow in quality migrants but not set to some arbitrary cap below ours. They in fact allow in more migrants per capita than we do.
You're right - the last sentence of mine was incorrect.
This is close to a no-brainer as exists in real-world politics.
So naturally Labour will oppose it tooth-and-nail...
Not sure our expat community in Spain consider learning Spanish as their duty as a migrant.
(In the UK, yes they should be expected to learn English, forced to is probably unnecessarily strong).
I knew lots of Brits in Denmark and Switzerland. Very few bothered to learn the local language more than necessary to get by in shops. I think they missed out by not doing so, and I'm in favour of it being worth some points towards settled status, without being essential if you tick lots of other boxes.
English is the local language here in the UK, and it's also a bit more - in fact everything more. Nobody thinks learning Danish is essential when taking a high-flying job in Denmark, but everybody thinks knowing good English is, and for that job in Denmark.
Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.
English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.
Yes, I broadly agree with you - we're lucky that the global language is the one we learned by accident of birth. I get a bit contrarian when I hear people get on their high horse about it - "OF COURSE everyone should learn English, or they're just layabouts"
Iran coronavirus: "BBC Persian [sic] understands that 25 people are being quarantined in the same hospital on suspicion that they might have Covid-19. "
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
If immigration gets overly restrictive and labour gets tight the cost of care will increase. That’s going to hit the old rather than the young. The young benefit from higher wages and possibly even more interest in training them and increasing their productivity. A reduction in immigration may well also reduce the pressure on housing reducing the capital value of houses again benefiting the young over the old. The idea this is all to favour the old is nonsense.
But hey, whatever rocks your boat.
I think it inevitable that there will be both cost pressures and staffing pressures on social care will dramatically increase over the next 15 years, even before immigration changes. The population growth forecast for the next 15 years, even with current immigration, is of several million over 65s with no real change in the working age population. The cohort of Gen X is simply a lot smaller than the Boomers.
The cost pressures are bearable with more spending, either by state or individual, the quantity and quality of staffing are much more problematic. I expect more scandals and bankruptcies in the sector.
In the hospitality sector, I wouldn't expect so much problem, marginal businesses in the pub, restaurant, cafe and hotel sector will simply become non viable and close. In agriculture, I expect it will be simple too, we will import produce rather than workers.
That's really worrying, to announce five deaths but no other reports or details of infections. Are there dozens infected in Iran, or did these people actually die of something else?
Here in the UAE there have been nine cases, 8 of which have now been discharged. All were Chinese or had flown back from China.
It seems l strain doesn't guarantee immunity to another."
The possibility of reinfection adds a whole new dimension.
All this points (to me) to Coronavirus being massively more prevalent than we thought. And therefore that mortality rates are actually pretty low.
Except that there is another possibility. People are dying of coronavirus everywhere... but the lack of test kits and knowledge means that these deaths are being written off as pneumonia, old age, the ague, the bloody Fluxe, etc
So the mortality rate might indeed be 2.3%, or even higher
It's being so cheery wot makes me so popular
I don't think that follows. If it's really prevalent and people were dropping dead of Corona virus left, right and centre, don't you think we might notice a slight rise in the number of people in the obituaries column.
Fair point. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Where is TimT?
Obvious question is, do we always do blood tests if some old person dies of pneumonia? Do they do this in India, China, Africa?
Death rates might have risen unnoticed, in old people, in poorer countries. That seems possible, but again I will defer to experts, if there are any.
no spike in england/wales death rates in week ending 7 FEB at least. in fact it was quite low (possibly due to mild feb weather.
"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 7 February 2020 (week 6) was 10,986; this represents a decrease of 626 deaths registered in comparison with the previous week (week 5).
The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 11,925."
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
I am sure you are worried and lets all hope you receive good news
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
You need to move on
Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.
The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.
Not any more. Neither Priti nor Sajids parents would pass muster under the new system.
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
The people who were angry about immigration aren't anymore, and the people who weren't... are
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.
On the contrary, @AlastairMeeks is a pensions specialist, and shortly to join the pensioner ranks himself.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.
On the contrary, @AlastairMeeks is a pensions specialist, and shortly to join the pensioner ranks himself.
If immigration gets overly restrictive and labour gets tight the cost of care will increase. That’s going to hit the old rather than the young. The young benefit from higher wages and possibly even more interest in training them and increasing their productivity. A reduction in immigration may well also reduce the pressure on housing reducing the capital value of houses again benefiting the young over the old. The idea this is all to favour the old is nonsense.
But hey, whatever rocks your boat.
I think it inevitable that there will be both cost pressures and staffing pressures on social care will dramatically increase over the next 15 years, even before immigration changes. The population growth forecast for the next 15 years, even with current immigration, is of several million over 65s with no real change in the working age population. The cohort of Gen X is simply a lot smaller than the Boomers.
The cost pressures are bearable with more spending, either by state or individual, the quantity and quality of staffing are much more problematic. I expect more scandals and bankruptcies in the sector.
In the hospitality sector, I wouldn't expect so much problem, marginal businesses in the pub, restaurant, cafe and hotel sector will simply become non viable and close. In agriculture, I expect it will be simple too, we will import produce rather than workers.
That's absolutely right, and that's why the government has introduced a pretty relaxed immigration policy, and will probably loosen it further in the years to come.
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
Sorry to hear it. A miserable thing to have but generally a good prognosis.
That's really worrying, to announce five deaths but no other reports or details of infections. Are there dozens infected in Iran, or did these people actually die of something else?
Here in the UAE there have been nine cases, 8 of which have now been discharged. All were Chinese or had flown back from China.
It seems l strain doesn't guarantee immunity to another."
The possibility of reinfection adds a whole new dimension.
All this points (to me) to Coronavirus being massively more prevalent than we thought. And therefore that mortality rates are actually pretty low.
Except that there is another possibility. People are dying of coronavirus everywhere... but the lack of test kits and knowledge means that these deaths are being written off as pneumonia, old age, the ague, the bloody Fluxe, etc
So the mortality rate might indeed be 2.3%, or even higher
It's being so cheery wot makes me so popular
I don't think that follows. If it's really prevalent and people were dropping dead of Corona virus left, right and centre, don't you think we might notice a slight rise in the number of people in the obituaries column.
Fair point. I do not have the expertise to answer that. Where is TimT?
Obvious question is, do we always do blood tests if some old person dies of pneumonia? Do they do this in India, China, Africa?
Death rates might have risen unnoticed, in old people, in poorer countries. That seems possible, but again I will defer to experts, if there are any.
no spike in england/wales death rates in week ending 7 FEB at least. in fact it was quite low (possibly due to mild feb weather.
"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 7 February 2020 (week 6) was 10,986; this represents a decrease of 626 deaths registered in comparison with the previous week (week 5).
The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 11,925."
Has the London Mayor done something at last about knife crime?
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
Hope it turns out to be a false alarm. Best wishes to you all.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Isn't it something to be celebrated that we live in a country so rich that our pensioners are free to explore the higher levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs?
Not when they’re salting the earth for the younger generation. Truly the current generation of pensioners are the most selfish ever.
You really have zero understanding of the motives and life experiences of pensioners but simply hurl insults which are so obviously the result of a failure to accept something that happened 4 years ago now. Truly awful to see you repeatedly lash out in this way. FFS move on.
On the contrary, @AlastairMeeks is a pensions specialist, and shortly to join the pensioner ranks himself.
Hardly. 52, 53? It’s the impetuosity of youth that we are seeing.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
You need to move on
Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.
The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.
Not any more. Neither Priti nor Sajids parents would pass muster under the new system.
Quite right. Went to a talk today by someone high up in the 'anti-crime' world in Essex. Wasn't enthusiastic (to say the least) about the Home Secretary.
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
I would much rather keep those currently contributing to our inland revenue system and welcome those who want to contribute to it in the future, irrespective of where they are from.
For anyone worried about net migration figures I would be quite content to exchange with Eastern and Southern European countries their workers for anyone who has ever appeared on the Jeremy Kyle Show, just to balance the numbers.
Well, I am currently sitting in a hospital waiting room while my daughter has some tests. She may have developed viral meningitis, a side effect of mumps.
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Yeah, the economy gets screwed so pensioners can indulge their dislike of foreigners.
Such a sad comment by a bitter remainer
Which bit do you quibble with, as opposed to make gratuitous personal attacks? If you want to be cheery about Brexit, be my guest. Don’t bitch at those of us who aren’t prepared to live in a fool’s paradise.
Your constant accusations that we hate foreigners.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
You need to move on
Our pensioners are so racist they voted for a government where some of the highest offices in the land, the most powerful and prestigious positions a country can bestow, are occupied by the sons and daughters of immigrants.
The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.
Comments
https://twitter.com/AmeshAA/status/1229773194644664321?s=19
It seems very likely to me that many EU UK residents will fail to apply for settled status but mostly through ignorance or negligence rather than for some nefarious motive.
Salary of £26,000 or more - 20 pts
Speaks English - 10 pts
It's all there: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement/the-uks-points-based-immigration-system-policy-statement
Look, I like it. I think it's simple, and restricts Big Issue Sellers, and the like.
But the idea that it's incredibly restrictive and is designed to dramatically reduce unemployment is for the birds.
That's not a bad thing.
Thatcher destroyed the trade unions, then Blair smashed open the UK labour market. A perfect storm for big business, with the added bonus that anyone who complained was labelled/libelled a racist xenophobe. Low paid workers need protection and now they have it I think.
Where I have an issue is with the government tweeting that they will no longer accept British firms importing skilled foreigners when they should be upskilling Brits, when the proposals do - in fact - absolutely nothing of the sort. In fact, the proposals are the exact opposite of the tweets. I object to our politicians lying to us.
In practice the biggest obstacle to international healthcare recruitment is recognition of qualifications. Within the EU/EEA these were automatically recognised, but non EU/EEA often are 6 months or more.
Martin Kettle nails the politics of the new policy:
'The Tory party has also discovered, without necessarily intending to, something that centre-right parties and movements have simultaneously discovered in other parts of the world. Arguments based on national identity are proving to be tailor-made for splitting the social democratic constituencies that used to maintain parties like Labour. Social democracy’s working-class voters quite like the appeal to nationhood. Its middle-class voters, on the other hand, greatly dislike it. Putting these constituencies back together gets ever more difficult.'
'In Britain, Labour does not know how to respond on immigration – and Johnson knows it. One Labour response is to criticise his immigration plans for the problems they cause for business. Johnson does not care about that. He got where he is today by saying “fuck business”. Another response is to accuse him of racism. Johnson sees no threat there either. He reckons he will be laughing all the way to the ballot box as long as middle-class politicians accuse him – and his voters – of such things. His immigration plans may or may not work on the ground, in the high street or at the borders, but in the end that’s not the point. It’s not the economy, stupid. It’s the politics.'
Sanders: 32%
Bidden: 14%
Warren 13%
Bloomberg 12%
Buttigieg 12%
everybody else 12% or less.
I'm not going to pay too much attention to a one pole and especially not for a state tat does not vote for 2 weeks (when some may have puled out) but still.
https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-02-18/california-poll-democratic-presidential-primary-ppic
That would give BS all of the statewide delegates and probably all the delegates from some CD, plus most of the delegates from most of the rest of the CDs
California has 415 delegates in total, including 144 at large delegates.
Immigrants to the UK therefore have a unique hurdle, in that foreign languages aren't really going to be a thing. Obviously the government caters for all sorts of languages when they're dealing with you, but really - it's just English.
English is nothing to do with England though - the Pakistani cricket commentator in Lahore owns it as much as I do.
Your hyperbole surely knows no bounds.
Far from it Boris has now opened our country to the worlds population
You need to move on
Johnson may have expoited the split, but it was the Blair government created the fault lines.
I think that in the immediate aftermath of the South Carolina primary, Barack Obama is going to be calling all the Presidential candidates who aren't called Bernie Sanders and will be telling them:
Your campaign is not viable right now. You need to come to an accommodation with the other members of the moderate lane, and you need to come to it now. If you don't do this, I will be forced to pick a candidate to endorse. And you don't want me to do that.
But hey, whatever rocks your boat.
The actual evidence is that when people come here seeking a better life, their families can quickly rise to the highest echelons in the land. Foreign Secretary. Home Secretary. Chancellor.
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1230222212885630980
I want us to control immigration so we allow in people who want to work hard, play fair, contribute to society, pay taxes and not claim benefits. If we do all that I will consider it controlled.
I don't want us to control immigration by targetting some arbitrary number of people regardless of quality, wages or ability.
The government has said they're going to control migration by aspects of quality but they're not targeting numbers. That seems entirely rational to me.
Its worth noting that Australia (and Canada) have points based immigration systems that allow in quality migrants but not set to some arbitrary cap below ours. They in fact allow in more migrants per capita than we do.
It's a Hard Loaf
Radio Rum-Baba
Flesh
Under Pressure Cooker
It's a Rind of Magic
Breadlong
We are the Champignons
I want to Bake Free
Bun Vision
Spread your Chicken Wings
Seven Seas of Rhye Bread
You don't Raspberry Fool Me
Now I'm Beer
Good Old Fashioned Liver Boy
Another One Bites the Crust
Bakethru'
Am a bit worried.
A long evening ahead.
Has anything exciting - other than endless rain - happened?
The cost pressures are bearable with more spending, either by state or individual, the quantity and quality of staffing are much more problematic. I expect more scandals and bankruptcies in the sector.
In the hospitality sector, I wouldn't expect so much problem, marginal businesses in the pub, restaurant, cafe and hotel sector will simply become non viable and close. In agriculture, I expect it will be simple too, we will import produce rather than workers.
in fact it was quite low (possibly due to mild feb weather.
"The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 7 February 2020 (week 6) was 10,986; this represents a decrease of 626 deaths registered in comparison with the previous week (week 5).
The average number of deaths for the corresponding week over the previous five years was 11,925."
All the very best
All the best to your daughter
Interesting article contrasting Sanders with Corbyn:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/regular-democrats-arent-least-bit-worried-about-bernie/606688/
Went to a talk today by someone high up in the 'anti-crime' world in Essex. Wasn't enthusiastic (to say the least) about the Home Secretary.
For anyone worried about net migration figures I would be quite content to exchange with Eastern and Southern European countries their workers for anyone who has ever appeared on the Jeremy Kyle Show, just to balance the numbers.
NEW THREAD
Hope that she gets well very soon.