That silly stunt by C4 will come back to bite them.
Did they get the pick of ice, like Corbyn’s admiree Trotsky?
It's another of those where Johnson had absolutely nothing to gain. 5 other party leaders all saying 'it's your fault, Mr Johnson'. I know it's sent panic through the Tories here (admittedly that's not very difficult to do at the best of times), but once again it's a political calculation worth taking.
Nobody but nobody will give a flying fuck about an obscure C4 debate about climate change when they cast their vote in two weeks time. Well, apart from ofcom over the ridiculous ice block stunt.
This would have been 5 party leaders hammering Boris and the Tories for 60 minutes - gold dust for them and no upside for him.
I think time here is far more relevant than which nationality they have
French person here 15 years planning to stay > Irish person here 1 year planning to leave or indeed UK person who has been absent for 20 years with no plans to return.
The only of of the three who could vote would be the Irish person and only because we treat them as British. Why hasn't your hypothetical French person bothered to take citizenship if they've been here for 15 years and are planning to stay? They can get citizenship if they want it if they've been here that long and then they can vote.
The Tory manifesto is offering votes for the absent expats.
Perhaps they dont have £1k disposable income to buy a passport. Perhaps they see themselves as French. Perhaps it is more convenient for foreign travel. I dont really mind, by being here 15 years they have shown themselves to be a long term part of the community and therefore should have a say.
This C4 thing is just going to be an hour of people trying to out virtue signal each other. Really pointless.
Theyll all be out committing themselves to go carbon neutral earlier. Two weeks on friday is what theyll end up agreeing on. Climate change is full of hustlers liars, rent seekers and lunatics and theyre evenly spread across whatever side of the debate you find yourself on.
Free advertising for the five who have showed up. Hardly a game-changer, but useful.
Coupled with his cowardice with Andrew Neil, the twice sacked liar Boris Johnson is repeating Mrs May's mistakes from 2017.
Remarkable, isn’t it?
The Tory campaign also seems to have put the engine into neutral and thinks it can coast through the next two weeks now to polling day. The Conservatives were going on about fucking potholes on their Twitter feed last night. POT. HOLES.
Muppets.
Wafer-thin majority is my view, and probably two less than Cameron for the lolz. Almost the worst possible result for Boris and will make him a prisoner of the ERG.
What the hell are the Tories playing at? I hope we see the Tory lead cut to 5% because they don't deserve anything more.
Hopefully they will wake up out of their complacency.
I'm not so sure that the Tories are being complacent. Maybe they're just plain old fashioned incompetent?
After all, Parliament isn't exactly famed for being stuffed to the gunwales with talented individuals these days, now is it?
You were right to be panicked.
The tories nowadays are simply shit.
Regarding the channel 4 debate- I don't think people will care outside of the bubble.
This C4 thing is just going to be an hour of people trying to out virtue signal each other. Really pointless.
Theyll all be out committing themselves to go carbon neutral earlier. Two weeks on friday is what theyll end up agreeing on. Climate change is full of hustlers liars, rent seekers and lunatics and theyre evenly spread across whatever side of the debate you find yourself on.
Free advertising for the five who have showed up. Hardly a game-changer, but useful.
Useful for the Tories, yes. Five parties who are all vying for the same Remain and eco conscious voters. Cummings is not as stupid as people think he is.
I think C4 will find themselves in hot water over the sculpture and refusing to allow Michael Gove to participate. Damage of course will already have been done
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Good point. There was a survey today showing women are now half as likely to see being an MP as a desirable job as men. I cant blame them given the abuse female politicians get. Being a male politician still wouldnt be any fun either, expected to spin and lie non stop and do what the whips tell you, rather than standing up for what you believe in or working together with those you disagree with to find solutions and compromises.
Most first generation immigrants are firm believers in self-reliance, self-betterment and personal advancement. A Conservative party that hadn’t thrown its lot in with inward-looking surly reactionaries should have an appealing message for them.
All four great offices of state are current held by descendants of people who immigrated to Britain in the 20th century.
You could have found a better advert for immigration.
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Neither would I.
Forget the salary (and it is a low salary compared to what professionals earn)
You'd have constant threats of violence, your family feeling bad you're getting criticised.
Also, you're not allowed to have a past.
I'm glad I'm old enough to have missed being a student with social media and camera phones everywhere.
Exactly. All of that.
And, I’m not entirely sure I could always keep my temper.
I’d probably end up calling someone a twat, or overreacting to someone calling me a twat, and then it’s game over.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
The spat about EU nationals getting the vote that's taking place on here at the moment demonstrates exactly why Boris Johnson probably has to win this election outright if Brexit is ever to happen. If the Conservatives fail to win and a Corbyn minority Government enters office, backed by the votes of the SNP and others, then the only way that a second referendum doesn't happen is if the EU27 decide they are so totally fed up with the UK that they determine to be rid of us at the end of January. That's possible but doesn't seem at all likely - especially because Remain will almost inevitably win such a referendum, because Labour and its partners will extend the franchise to include 16-18 year olds and all EU nationals ordinarily resident in the UK. It's not even as if this can be frustrated in the Lords because the Tories don't have the numbers there, or anywhere close.
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
The spat taking place on here at the moment demonstrates exactly why Boris Johnson probably has to win this election outright if Brexit is ever to happen. If the Conservatives fail to win and a Corbyn minority Government enters office, backed by the votes of the SNP and others, then the only way that a second referendum doesn't happen is if the EU27 decide they are so totally fed up with the UK that they determine to be rid of us at the end of January. That's possible but doesn't seem at all likely - especially because Remain will almost inevitably win such a referendum, because Labour and its partners will extend the franchise to include 16-18 year olds and all EU nationals ordinarily resident in the UK. It's not even as if this can be frustrated in the Lords because the Tories don't have the numbers there, or anywhere close.
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
Plenty of Labour MPs and the DUP probably won’t support a 2nd ref. He’d need to go backwards in seats which is possible.
Coupled with his cowardice with Andrew Neil, the twice sacked liar Boris Johnson is repeating Mrs May's mistakes from 2017.
A no-show is less dangerous than bumbling incompetence.
Great. So that’s our probable next PM, someone who can’t be trusted to do a television interview.
I am in no way inclined towards Johnson, but if one is a dire interviewee it would seem wise to avoid the interview. A lesson learned from the hapless Corbyn?
If he was contesting to be a librarian, one might have some sympathy.
But being interviewed, and held to challenging scrutiny, is right up there at the top of the job description. Even as FS one of his interviews worsened the lot of one of our citizens in a foreign jail. As PM he’ll be batting for us in front of the world’s media, yet he’s frightened of being interviewed during an election. Just as he was when he stood for leader. Pitiful.
The spat about EU nationals getting the vote that's taking place on here at the moment demonstrates exactly why Boris Johnson probably has to win this election outright if Brexit is ever to happen. If the Conservatives fail to win and a Corbyn minority Government enters office, backed by the votes of the SNP and others, then the only way that a second referendum doesn't happen is if the EU27 decide they are so totally fed up with the UK that they determine to be rid of us at the end of January. That's possible but doesn't seem at all likely - especially because Remain will almost inevitably win such a referendum, because Labour and its partners will extend the franchise to include 16-18 year olds and all EU nationals ordinarily resident in the UK. It's not even as if this can be frustrated in the Lords because the Tories don't have the numbers there, or anywhere close.
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
Precisely why the franchise extension is the most dangerous single item in the Labour manifesto (and that's saying something!). I wonder how it could be highlighted to Tory voters in key seats without firing up all those on the other side who would love a permanent boost to Labour and the pro-EU cause...
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
He is the PC leader
Yep but they’re standing in a tiny amount of seats. If they were serious about this they’d have someone like Gove who was actually in a position to make change happen.
I don’t even see what the problem would have been for Boris doing this.
The Tories have a good story to tell on climate change.
I'd guess it's because no one for whom climate change is a first-order issue will ever vote Conservative, whereas a certain chunk of the Tory base / potential Tory voters is likely to still be sceptical.
Plus a good showing by the minor parties could draw key votes away from Labour.
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Also social media. All the kind of stupid things people used to say down the pub are now written down and available for all to see. For ever. I doubt if today's candidates are any worse than in the past. Casual racism of all kinds used to be much more prevalent back in the day than now.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Coupled with his cowardice with Andrew Neil, the twice sacked liar Boris Johnson is repeating Mrs May's mistakes from 2017.
Remarkable, isn’t it?
The Tory campaign also seems to have put the engine into neutral and thinks it can coast through the next two weeks now to polling day. The Conservatives were going on about fucking potholes on their Twitter feed last night. POT. HOLES.
Muppets.
Wafer-thin majority is my view, and probably two less than Cameron for the lolz. Almost the worst possible result for Boris and will make him a prisoner of the ERG.
What the hell are the Tories playing at? I hope we see the Tory lead cut to 5% because they don't deserve anything more.
Hopefully they will wake up out of their complacency.
I'm not so sure that the Tories are being complacent. Maybe they're just plain old fashioned incompetent?
After all, Parliament isn't exactly famed for being stuffed to the gunwales with talented individuals these days, now is it?
You were right to be panicked.
The tories nowadays are simply shit.
I've gone past the panic phase and am now in a much calmer place. I truly detest the idea of Corbyn as Prime Minister, but at least I'm reasonably sure that he can't get over the finishing line on his own and the Scots Nats aren't completely mad. They'll stop him from doing anything too silly because (a) they'd suffer too if he made a mess of the economy, and (b) they're very committed to keeping the UK in the EU, and the EU's institutions should also act as a check on some of the more extreme forms of crazy behaviour in which Labour might otherwise indulge.
Beyond that, I've switched sides to Remain and Tory defeat seems highly likely to lead to that outcome. True faith Brexiteers will not, I imagine, be feeling so sanguine about that prospect.
I think time here is far more relevant than which nationality they have
French person here 15 years planning to stay > Irish person here 1 year planning to leave or indeed UK person who has been absent for 20 years with no plans to return.
The only of of the three who could vote would be the Irish person and only because we treat them as British. Why hasn't your hypothetical French person bothered to take citizenship if they've been here for 15 years and are planning to stay? They can get citizenship if they want it if they've been here that long and then they can vote.
The Tory manifesto is offering votes for the absent expats.
Perhaps they dont have £1k disposable income to buy a passport. Perhaps they see themselves as French. Perhaps it is more convenient for foreign travel. I dont really mind, by being here 15 years they have shown themselves to be a long term part of the community and therefore should have a say.
If they see themselves as French they have no reason to vote in our elections. The fee has nothing to do with it and if you want to remove the fee then I'd have no objection to that. All countries for good reason reject their national elections to their own nationals.
I think Boris ducking Neil is a serious mistake. And a stupid one.
I find myself instantly losing respect for him at the prospect of it. Admittedly, I didn’t have much of it to start with, but I thought he did ok at the QT special last Friday night.
Getting a ”frit” meme snowballing is a horrible label to have hung round your neck in the last 2 weeks before polling day when you’re relying on your best PM lead and a ‘balls of steel’ reputation.
Neil is a competent interviewer but he is also a self-important bully. Look at the stuff he retweets about himself, e.g.
is on a one-man mission to clean up politics in the UK, by exposing the lies, exaggerations and deceptions of every party’s politicians. He must be striking fear into the stone-cold hearts of most of those in Westminster. Thank goodness. Bravo, Sir."
So let's not appoint him a living national treasure, bulwark of our democracy, etc. and let's not condemn Johnson for ducking out of the interview until he actually ducks out of it. It's very possible he is stringing things out so that we can continue to laugh at the sheer ineptitude of Labour in putting forward Corbyn without guarantees, and so that he can extract concessions from Neil. For instance it would be reasonable to stipulate that Arcuri is sub judice and off limits, and that's a concession he might get if Neil is desperate enough.
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Neither would I. Forget the salary (and it is a low salary compared to what professionals earn) You'd have constant threats of violence, your family feeling bad you're getting criticised. Also, you're not allowed to have a past. I'm glad I'm old enough to have missed being a student with social media and camera phones everywhere.
I'm not sure how we fix this issue. I'm as guilty of anyone of going too far in condemnation of the political classes sometimes, but I do try to give them credit where it is due adn acknowledge the difficulty of the job they are asked to do, but I see no sign as a society we would take action to make it an appealing job for people to do.
On the day after my party has been predicted to get just 13 seats it's actually the PB Conservatives who are in another blind panic... As a Lib Dem I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...
Coupled with his cowardice with Andrew Neil, the twice sacked liar Boris Johnson is repeating Mrs May's mistakes from 2017.
Remarkable, isn’t it?
The Tory campaign also seems to have put the engine into neutral and thinks it can coast through the next two weeks now to polling day. The Conservatives were going on about fucking potholes on their Twitter feed last night. POT. HOLES.
Muppets.
Wafer-thin majority is my view, and probably two less than Cameron for the lolz. Almost the worst possible result for Boris and will make him a prisoner of the ERG.
What the hell are the Tories playing at? I hope we see the Tory lead cut to 5% because they don't deserve anything more.
Hopefully they will wake up out of their complacency.
I'm not so sure that the Tories are being complacent. Maybe they're just plain old fashioned incompetent?
After all, Parliament isn't exactly famed for being stuffed to the gunwales with talented individuals these days, now is it?
You were right to be panicked.
The tories nowadays are simply shit.
Regarding the channel 4 debate- I don't think people will care outside of the bubble.
That's what people say about everything that ever happens in politics.
I'm happy to continue to be a contrarian: if the worst story about Boris over the next 13 days is that he dodged an interview with Andrew Neil and that story dominates the political news cycle, then that does the Tories much less harm than if Labour's NHS BS were being run 24/7. It's basically a running dead cat!
Neil is a Westminster bubble story, especially since Boris has already gone head-to-head with Corbyn, and will do so again.
Bojo has stolen Farage's thunder by being a better blustering authoritarian than Farage.
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
I think Boris ducking Neil is a serious mistake. And a stupid one.
I find myself instantly losing respect for him at the prospect of it. Admittedly, I didn’t have much of it to start with, but I thought he did ok at the QT special last Friday night.
Getting a ”frit” meme snowballing is a horrible label to have hung round your neck in the last 2 weeks before polling day when you’re relying on your best PM lead and a ‘balls of steel’ reputation.
Neil is a competent interviewer but he is also a self-important bully. Look at the stuff he retweets about himself,
He is clearly a vain man who likes retweeting the praise that he gets from people, but I'm not sure where the bully stuff comes from. Do we know what he is like as a colleague or employer? Because his interviewing style, which people whinge about as being bullying, does not amount to being a bully and I don't know what else we have to go on.
She might not have backed Corbyn to be leader of the Labour Party, but she'd happily install him as leader of the United Kingdom, of course.
I mean, honestly.
It's one of the most dishonest positions to take, in the guise of being more honest.
Really? I recall MP's having a Corbyn revolt before the Commissars got a grip on the Party. IIRC, a large percentage voted not to work with him. Perhaps her position is "Look - we MPs are stuck with this fool too"
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Who is sending their dad where?
Channel 4 invited Stanley Johnson to the spin room for this and now people are spinning/trolling it as BJ sending his Dad to do the debate
I think time here is far more relevant than which nationality they have
French person here 15 years planning to stay > Irish person here 1 year planning to leave or indeed UK person who has been absent for 20 years with no plans to return.
The only of of the three who could vote would be the Irish person and only because we treat them as British. Why hasn't your hypothetical French person bothered to take citizenship if they've been here for 15 years and are planning to stay? They can get citizenship if they want it if they've been here that long and then they can vote.
The Tory manifesto is offering votes for the absent expats.
Perhaps they dont have £1k disposable income to buy a passport. Perhaps they see themselves as French. Perhaps it is more convenient for foreign travel. I dont really mind, by being here 15 years they have shown themselves to be a long term part of the community and therefore should have a say.
If they see themselves as French they have no reason to vote in our elections. The fee has nothing to do with it and if you want to remove the fee then I'd have no objection to that. All countries for good reason reject their national elections to their own nationals.
The fee matters to those who cant afford it!
I want people who are a long term part of the community of the UK to be able to vote, whether they see their main identity as British, Scottish, Cornish, French, Irish, world citizens, Europeans, Chinese or even Catholic or Muslim doesnt change that.
The spat taking place on here at the moment demonstrates exactly why Boris Johnson probably has to win this election outright if Brexit is ever to happen. If the Conservatives fail to win and a Corbyn minority Government enters office, backed by the votes of the SNP and others, then the only way that a second referendum doesn't happen is if the EU27 decide they are so totally fed up with the UK that they determine to be rid of us at the end of January. That's possible but doesn't seem at all likely - especially because Remain will almost inevitably win such a referendum, because Labour and its partners will extend the franchise to include 16-18 year olds and all EU nationals ordinarily resident in the UK. It's not even as if this can be frustrated in the Lords because the Tories don't have the numbers there, or anywhere close.
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
Plenty of Labour MPs and the DUP probably won’t support a 2nd ref. He’d need to go backwards in seats which is possible.
If Labour ends up in power then I would expect the Labour MPs in Leave-leaning areas to back a referendum on their own party's Brexit proposal versus Remain. Why wouldn't they? Will there be any committed Brexiteers in the PLP after this election?
The position of the DUP only becomes pivotal if the arithmetic stacks up in just the right fashion to give them the balance of power between the Tories and the Labour-led bloc. If it does then things get very interesting, but the chances of that happening again are rather slender.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Who is sending their dad where?
Nobody. Some people who should know better started frothing, for no apparent reason.
On the day after my party has been predicted to get just 13 seats it's actually the PB Conservatives who are in another blind panic... As a Lib Dem I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...
Well sure that would be very disappointing, but the LDs were not going to be potentially running the country for five years, and even on 13 seats they get what they want, remain, if Labour hold up their end and prevent a Tory majority.
I'm happy to continue to be a contrarian: if the worst story about Boris over the next 13 days is that he dodged an interview with Andrew Neil and that story dominates the political news cycle, then that does the Tories much less harm than if Labour's NHS BS were being run 24/7. It's basically a running dead cat!
Neil is a Westminster bubble story, especially since Boris has already gone head-to-head with Corbyn, and will do so again.
Bojo has stolen Farage's thunder by being a better blustering authoritarian than Farage.
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
It is a massive category error.
I think your category error is assuming that the "people who care" category is 100 times bigger than it really is. Boris is going up against Corbyn head-to-head, and that's all that really matters. How many people even know the C4 debate is happening, let alone are watching it, let alone are Tory supporters or potential Tory voters?
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Neither would I. Forget the salary (and it is a low salary compared to what professionals earn) You'd have constant threats of violence, your family feeling bad you're getting criticised. Also, you're not allowed to have a past. I'm glad I'm old enough to have missed being a student with social media and camera phones everywhere.
I'm not sure how we fix this issue. I'm as guilty of anyone of going too far in condemnation of the political classes sometimes, but I do try to give them credit where it is due adn acknowledge the difficulty of the job they are asked to do, but I see no sign as a society we would take action to make it an appealing job for people to do.
+1, though of course I'm biased. Personally I wish I was back there - one of the most interesting jobs in the world. But I do see that the level of public intimidation and media muckraking makes it high-risk. Mainly I do blame the print media - one of the nastiest in the democratic world, and lightyears away from the reasonable attempt at balance in the German, French, Scandianavian and indeed American press.
But I'm not sure what to do about it either. It does seem odd that a genuinely non-partisan paper doesn't do well - the public seem at some level to like mud-slinging, so long as they think the target is right.
Sir Richard Evans, eminent historian of Nazi Germany and the man who exposed the lies and anti-semitism of David Irving in the Lipstadt/Penguin libel trial, is no longer voting Labour.
On the day after my party has been predicted to get just 13 seats it's actually the PB Conservatives who are in another blind panic... As a Lib Dem I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry...
For you guys getting 13 is just another day in the office. For us who are genuinely terrified of a Corbyn government any less than 320 or more is a terrifying prospect.
I think Boris ducking Neil is a serious mistake. And a stupid one.
I find myself instantly losing respect for him at the prospect of it. Admittedly, I didn’t have much of it to start with, but I thought he did ok at the QT special last Friday night.
Getting a ”frit” meme snowballing is a horrible label to have hung round your neck in the last 2 weeks before polling day when you’re relying on your best PM lead and a ‘balls of steel’ reputation.
Neil is a competent interviewer but he is also a self-important bully. Look at the stuff he retweets about himself,
He is clearly a vain man who likes retweeting the praise that he gets from people, but I'm not sure where the bully stuff comes from. Do we know what he is like as a colleague or employer? Because his interviewing style, which people whinge about as being bullying, does not amount to being a bully and I don't know what else we have to go on.
"I have asked you four times" is bullying. Ask, ask again, move on.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Problem is that it's a specialist subject, so you have an advantage if you can replace the Leader, who is naturally enough a generalist.
This point is being borne out by the discussion I am watching (in between playing scrabble). Sian Berry is not a great speaker but she has a grasp of detail that is giving her a definite edge in this debate.
I wonder if the reason there are so many awful stories this election is because parties are really struggling these days to attract quality candidates.
Honestly, who’d want to be an MP?
I wouldn’t.
Neither would I. Forget the salary (and it is a low salary compared to what professionals earn) You'd have constant threats of violence, your family feeling bad you're getting criticised. Also, you're not allowed to have a past. I'm glad I'm old enough to have missed being a student with social media and camera phones everywhere.
I'm not sure how we fix this issue. I'm as guilty of anyone of going too far in condemnation of the political classes sometimes, but I do try to give them credit where it is due adn acknowledge the difficulty of the job they are asked to do, but I see no sign as a society we would take action to make it an appealing job for people to do.
the public seem at some level to like mud-slinging, so long as they think the target is right.
This is the main problem. While we will have disagreement about what the current parties' positions are and how appealing those positions are, one thing some often say is that 'the people' want a sensible centrist alternative, but I suspect we'd agree that there's not really much sign that that is true. The public reward parties who are firm and ideological. And they also reward political mudslinging and lack of compromise.
Apparently Stanley Johnson was invited by C4News for the “spin room”, not “sent by the PM” from John Rentoul.
Looks like the participants vetoed Goves inclusion which would be a breach of standards in an election period
That's ridiculous. If this is a Climate debate he is eminently qualified to represent the party.
I think Ch4 might be in serious trouble over this stunt. They absolutely cannot insist on the presence of party leaders at an event set up by themselves and refuse to accept a sensible stand in during am election period. And definitely not empty chair anybody who was never booked and has sent his environment secretary to participate
I'm happy to continue to be a contrarian: if the worst story about Boris over the next 13 days is that he dodged an interview with Andrew Neil and that story dominates the political news cycle, then that does the Tories much less harm than if Labour's NHS BS were being run 24/7. It's basically a running dead cat!
Neil is a Westminster bubble story, especially since Boris has already gone head-to-head with Corbyn, and will do so again.
Bojo has stolen Farage's thunder by being a better blustering authoritarian than Farage.
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
It is a massive category error.
I think your category error is assuming that the "people who care" category is 100 times bigger than it really is. Boris is going up against Corbyn head-to-head, and that's all that really matters. How many people even know the C4 debate is happening, let alone are watching it, let alone are Tory supporters or potential Tory voters?
No one knew. The only reason I know this debate is on is because Boris ducked it. Now people know. It's not about specific events, or is about the backgrounds radiation level of discourse. Before the background radiation was that corbyn is useless (not about any specific thing, just that he was useless). Now the background radiation is that old Bojo us running scared.
I think time here is far more relevant than which nationality they have
French person here 15 years planning to stay > Irish person here 1 year planning to leave or indeed UK person who has been absent for 20 years with no plans to return.
The only of of the three who could vote would be the Irish person and only because we treat them as British. Why hasn't your hypothetical French person bothered to take citizenship if they've been here for 15 years and are planning to stay? They can get citizenship if they want it if they've been here that long and then they can vote.
The Tory manifesto is offering votes for the absent expats.
Perhaps they dont have £1k disposable income to buy a passport. Perhaps they see themselves as French. Perhaps it is more convenient for foreign travel. I dont really mind, by being here 15 years they have shown themselves to be a long term part of the community and therefore should have a say.
If they see themselves as French they have no reason to vote in our elections. The fee has nothing to do with it and if you want to remove the fee then I'd have no objection to that. All countries for good reason reject their national elections to their own nationals.
The fee matters to those who cant afford it!
I want people who are a long term part of the community of the UK to be able to vote, whether they see their main identity as British, Scottish, Cornish, French, Irish, world citizens, Europeans, Chinese or even Catholic or Muslim doesnt change that.
As I said the fee can be abolished so no it isn't relevant. There is no reason to change the law on voting rather than make acquiring citizenship easier if it is an issue. There are more benefits to citizenship than just voting.
It does change that. All countries let their nationals vote in their national elections. It is what citizenship means. Why not abolish citizenship as a concept if you're just going to let anyone vote?
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Problem is that it's a specialist subject, so you have an advantage if you can replace the Leader, who is naturally enough a generalist. This point is being borne out by the discussion I am watching (in between playing scrabble). Sian Berry is not a great speaker but she has a grasp of detail that is giving her a definite edge in this debate.
The answer to that, is have it between specialists. Much more useful and informative. And is Gove a specialist anyway?
Sir Richard Evans, eminent historian of Nazi Germany and the man who exposed the lies and anti-semitism of David Irving in the Lipstadt/Penguin libel trial, is no longer voting Labour.
This is very welcome news.
I am quite surprised at how long it took one of the country's leading experts on 1930s Germany to realise that "I want more steps towards a federal Europe and the objections of the Jews will not stop me" was, to put it mildly, a bad look.
The spat about EU nationals getting the vote that's taking place on here at the moment demonstrates exactly why Boris Johnson probably has to win this election outright if Brexit is ever to happen. If the Conservatives fail to win and a Corbyn minority Government enters office, backed by the votes of the SNP and others, then the only way that a second referendum doesn't happen is if the EU27 decide they are so totally fed up with the UK that they determine to be rid of us at the end of January. That's possible but doesn't seem at all likely - especially because Remain will almost inevitably win such a referendum, because Labour and its partners will extend the franchise to include 16-18 year olds and all EU nationals ordinarily resident in the UK. It's not even as if this can be frustrated in the Lords because the Tories don't have the numbers there, or anywhere close.
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
And democracy will have died in our country. All those non citizens having the vote is just a gerrymander ( for clarity is withdraw the rights of the Commonwealth to vote too).
If people feel the field is slanted against them like that, it will be a dark day.
I find it strange they would have a debate about climate change. Brexit maybe but it’s quite a niche issue and isn’t top of public priorities. Very Channel 4.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
They allowed a sub for the leader of Plaid Cymru but not the Tories? That has got to be against the rules.
It’s an election - the people arguing on our tv should be people contesting for our votes. Sending your father is pitiful behaviour. Gove however should have been allowed in, on the same basis as Rudd who subbed for the last Tory leader too frightened to appear on tv.
Problem is that it's a specialist subject, so you have an advantage if you can replace the Leader, who is naturally enough a generalist.
This point is being borne out by the discussion I am watching (in between playing scrabble). Sian Berry is not a great speaker but she has a grasp of detail that is giving her a definite edge in this debate.
Is the aim of election programmes to find out party positions, or to catch out people without specialist knowledge (and would have no particular reason to)?
She might not have backed Corbyn to be leader of the Labour Party, but she'd happily install him as leader of the United Kingdom, of course.
I mean, honestly.
It's one of the most dishonest positions to take, in the guise of being more honest.
Really? I recall MP's having a Corbyn revolt before the Commissars got a grip on the Party. IIRC, a large percentage voted not to work with him. Perhaps her position is "Look - we MPs are stuck with this fool too"
None of them are stuck with him that's the excuse of a coward, they could have taken a stand if they don't like his leadership, as some did with him and others did with Boris. They are happy for him to be leader of the country so downplaying their support for him is just stupid. If they want him to be PM that's a position a lot of people can get behind, millions in fact, and you don't have to worship him, but if you are making someone PM what's the point bringing up your relative lack of enthusiasm? It makes no difference to how they will act on the critical question.
I'm happy to continue to be a contrarian: if the worst story about Boris over the next 13 days is that he dodged an interview with Andrew Neil and that story dominates the political news cycle, then that does the Tories much less harm than if Labour's NHS BS were being run 24/7. It's basically a running dead cat!
Neil is a Westminster bubble story, especially since Boris has already gone head-to-head with Corbyn, and will do so again.
Bojo has stolen Farage's thunder by being a better blustering authoritarian than Farage.
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
It is a massive category error.
I think your category error is assuming that the "people who care" category is 100 times bigger than it really is. Boris is going up against Corbyn head-to-head, and that's all that really matters. How many people even know the C4 debate is happening, let alone are watching it, let alone are Tory supporters or potential Tory voters?
No one knew. The only reason I know this debate is on is because Boris ducked it. Now people know. It's not about specific events, or is about the backgrounds radiation level of discourse. Before the background radiation was that corbyn is useless (not about any specific thing, just that he was useless). Now the background radiation is that old Bojo us running scared.
To be honest, I suspect the vibe from this will be who the fuck do Chnl 4 think they are demanding the PM appears. Spun correctly, Jon fuck the Tories, Snow and the senior bod whose name escapes me slagging off Boris can be made to play well.
It would be quite funny if as a result of this Channel4 were forced to rectify by giving Gove a full length interview on climate change. It would be a free hit for the Tories.
I'm happy to continue to be a contrarian: if the worst story about Boris over the next 13 days is that he dodged an interview with Andrew Neil and that story dominates the political news cycle, then that does the Tories much less harm than if Labour's NHS BS were being run 24/7. It's basically a running dead cat!
Neil is a Westminster bubble story, especially since Boris has already gone head-to-head with Corbyn, and will do so again.
Bojo has stolen Farage's thunder by being a better blustering authoritarian than Farage.
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
It is a massive category error.
I think your category error is assuming that the "people who care" category is 100 times bigger than it really is. Boris is going up against Corbyn head-to-head, and that's all that really matters. How many people even know the C4 debate is happening, let alone are watching it, let alone are Tory supporters or potential Tory voters?
No one knew. The only reason I know this debate is on is because Boris ducked it. Now people know. It's not about specific events, or is about the backgrounds radiation level of discourse. Before the background radiation was that corbyn is useless (not about any specific thing, just that he was useless). Now the background radiation is that old Bojo us running scared.
Corbyn "ran scared" of an election for months. Is that fact going to sway this election one way or another? The people who will "cancel" Boris for missing one interview and a C4 debate were never going to vote for him anyway.
Sir Richard Evans, eminent historian of Nazi Germany and the man who exposed the lies and anti-semitism of David Irving in the Lipstadt/Penguin libel trial, is no longer voting Labour.
And this is the letter which, according to him, changed his mind - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/11/open-letter-sir-richard-evans-labour-s-anti-semitism-cannot-be-disregarded. “This anti-Semitism concerns us all, Jews and non-Jews. A party that cannot be trusted in relation to Jews cannot be trusted at all. No party of reform and justice can be trusted if it makes exceptions of a minority community. British Jews have heard for some weeks now the argument that the anti-Semitism is all very unfortunate; it is limited (to the leader, to a small fraction in the party enabled by him); there are bigger issues (Brexit, austerity, etc). There is even an implication that it is a little parochial – perhaps even, selfish – of Jews to insist on their own special suffering, their own local fears, in these times of national crisis. So what if the party is contaminated by Jew hatred if it is also the party that will save the country?” We’ve even had some of that on here. Sadly.
Comments
Nobody but nobody will give a flying fuck about an obscure C4 debate about climate change when they cast their vote in two weeks time. Well, apart from ofcom over the ridiculous ice block stunt.
This would have been 5 party leaders hammering Boris and the Tories for 60 minutes - gold dust for them and no upside for him.
Perhaps they dont have £1k disposable income to buy a passport. Perhaps they see themselves as French. Perhaps it is more convenient for foreign travel. I dont really mind, by being here 15 years they have shown themselves to be a long term part of the community and therefore should have a say.
Boris sends his mum to do Emily Maitlis on newsnight tomorrow.
There was a survey today showing women are now half as likely to see being an MP as a desirable job as men. I cant blame them given the abuse female politicians get.
Being a male politician still wouldnt be any fun either, expected to spin and lie non stop and do what the whips tell you, rather than standing up for what you believe in or working together with those you disagree with to find solutions and compromises.
And, I’m not entirely sure I could always keep my temper.
I’d probably end up calling someone a twat, or overreacting to someone calling me a twat, and then it’s game over.
I also think it was strange Stanley was there but Gove is environment minister, it’s poor form not to let him take part when some Plaid Cymru Guy is allowed on
Once A50 is withdrawn then Brexit can only happen in future if a majority Government committed to it is elected. Might that happen at some point? Perhaps. But one would've thought that having all those extra EU voters on the electoral register would rule it out for a very long time.
https://twitter.com/RuthGeorgeMP/status/1200049865293811713/hidden
But being interviewed, and held to challenging scrutiny, is right up there at the top of the job description. Even as FS one of his interviews worsened the lot of one of our citizens in a foreign jail. As PM he’ll be batting for us in front of the world’s media, yet he’s frightened of being interviewed during an election. Just as he was when he stood for leader. Pitiful.
The Tories have a good story to tell on climate change.
This is on a news show during, during an election campaign.
It's like the Rolling Stones turning up to do a gig at Brighton Pavilion....
I’ve just switched on and have no idea who the guy standing between Corbyn and Sturgeon is.
Plus a good showing by the minor parties could draw key votes away from Labour.
Beyond that, I've switched sides to Remain and Tory defeat seems highly likely to lead to that outcome. True faith Brexiteers will not, I imagine, be feeling so sanguine about that prospect.
Particularly on TV.
"It appears that
@afneil
is on a one-man mission to clean up politics in the UK, by exposing the lies, exaggerations and deceptions of every party’s politicians. He must be striking fear into the stone-cold hearts of most of those in Westminster. Thank goodness. Bravo, Sir."
So let's not appoint him a living national treasure, bulwark of our democracy, etc. and let's not condemn Johnson for ducking out of the interview until he actually ducks out of it. It's very possible he is stringing things out so that we can continue to laugh at the sheer ineptitude of Labour in putting forward Corbyn without guarantees, and so that he can extract concessions from Neil. For instance it would be reasonable to stipulate that Arcuri is sub judice and off limits, and that's a concession he might get if Neil is desperate enough.
Ah, Plaid Cymru.
Still don’t know his name.
Looks like the participants vetoed Goves inclusion which would be a breach of standards in an election period
The thing about Authoritarians is that they mist appear strong. That's why it was ridiculous when people saying Boris might switch constituency, it would have destroyed his aura.
Skipping multi party debates was fine as that kept his aura of being above it all intact. Skipping the 1 v 1 makes him look like a coward and makes people reassess his skipping the multi party debates.
It is a massive category error.
Perhaps her position is "Look - we MPs are stuck with this fool too"
I want people who are a long term part of the community of the UK to be able to vote, whether they see their main identity as British, Scottish, Cornish, French, Irish, world citizens, Europeans, Chinese or even Catholic or Muslim doesnt change that.
The position of the DUP only becomes pivotal if the arithmetic stacks up in just the right fashion to give them the balance of power between the Tories and the Labour-led bloc. If it does then things get very interesting, but the chances of that happening again are rather slender.
https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1200081786690244608
But I'm not sure what to do about it either. It does seem odd that a genuinely non-partisan paper doesn't do well - the public seem at some level to like mud-slinging, so long as they think the target is right.
Get with it, party leaders.
For us who are genuinely terrified of a Corbyn government any less than 320 or more is a terrifying prospect.
This point is being borne out by the discussion I am watching (in between playing scrabble). Sian Berry is not a great speaker but she has a grasp of detail that is giving her a definite edge in this debate.
Now people know. It's not about specific events, or is about the backgrounds radiation level of discourse. Before the background radiation was that corbyn is useless (not about any specific thing, just that he was useless). Now the background radiation is that old Bojo us running scared.
It does change that. All countries let their nationals vote in their national elections. It is what citizenship means. Why not abolish citizenship as a concept if you're just going to let anyone vote?
I am quite surprised at how long it took one of the country's leading experts on 1930s Germany to realise that "I want more steps towards a federal Europe and the objections of the Jews will not stop me" was, to put it mildly, a bad look.
If people feel the field is slanted against them like that, it will be a dark day.
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/1200137324153192448?s=20
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/11/open-letter-sir-richard-evans-labour-s-anti-semitism-cannot-be-disregarded
Word soup from Price of PC, and the others aren't any better.
“This anti-Semitism concerns us all, Jews and non-Jews. A party that cannot be trusted in relation to Jews cannot be trusted at all. No party of reform and justice can be trusted if it makes exceptions of a minority community. British Jews have heard for some weeks now the argument that the anti-Semitism is all very unfortunate; it is limited (to the leader, to a small fraction in the party enabled by him); there are bigger issues (Brexit, austerity, etc). There is even an implication that it is a little parochial – perhaps even, selfish – of Jews to insist on their own special suffering, their own local fears, in these times of national crisis. So what if the party is contaminated by Jew hatred if it is also the party that will save the country?”
We’ve even had some of that on here. Sadly.