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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The money’s now going on the meaningful vote being carried tom

SystemSystem Posts: 12,605
edited October 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The money’s now going on the meaningful vote being carried tomorrow

Betfair have a market up on their exchange tomorrow’s big vote in the Commons and the Betdata.io chart above shows the movement since 1430 this afternoon. As can be seen the betting consensus is moving to the motion getting through.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,144
    First. Like Johnson.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,144
    I suggested earlier that folks tuck in when the 'deal passing' was 2.3.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    Turd. Like Letwin.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,144
    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=19

    It's the Corbyn deal bounce
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,631
    dyedwoolie said:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=19

    It's the Corbyn deal bounce

    So we're at 1-1 with the polls. Although the fieldwork on this one is a day earlier.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    dyedwoolie said:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=19

    It's the Corbyn deal bounce

    JCICIPM.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    justin124 said:

    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?

    Why does Letwin's amendment delay the WAIB in any way?
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    justin124 said:

    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?

    Dec 5th still possible if we leave 31st October, or the legislation all through by then
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,293
    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,210
    If the United Front Against Bozo's Deal thought they'd win the vote tomorrow then why bother with the Letwin Amendment?

    Bercow should reject the amendment so we can just have a proper vote.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,748
    Genuine question, is there anything stopping the government from amending the MV motion to say something like “the house accepts the deal and the government really won’t try and force a no deal Brexit”? Does that satisfy the Benn Act? I only ask because that could be one way to lessen the risk of Letwin passing, though I don’t know if it would have any force?
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    RobD said:

    dyedwoolie said:

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=19

    It's the Corbyn deal bounce

    So we're at 1-1 with the polls. Although the fieldwork on this one is a day earlier.
    Think it's best to wait at least a few days until we start taking the polls too seriously
  • NorthstarNorthstar Posts: 141
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Letwin might kill Remain.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,144
    edited October 2019
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    SandyRentool said:

    If the United Front Against Bozo's Deal thought they'd win the vote tomorrow then why bother with the Letwin Amendment?

    Letwin is voting for the deal. The point of it is to make sure that we don't crash out without a deal if the WAIB takes longer than anticipated to pass.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    Again, why on earth pull it? It achieves precisely nothing, but robs the government of an "indicative" vote that would signify whether the House approves the deal.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Letwin's basically knobbled this hasn't he... what a let down!
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    So if Letwin passes, the government has to bring forward new legislation to nullify the Benn Act?

    Sorry I'm so confused about this.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,631
    nunuone said:

    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    So if Letwin passes, the government has to bring forward new legislation to nullify the Benn Act?

    Sorry I'm so confused about this.
    No, if it passes and the actual vote passes tomorrow, they will still have to ask for an extension anyway. MPs really don't want to make a decision, do they?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,293
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Letwin's basically knobbled this hasn't he... what a let down!

    Not sure.

    I think the EU are going to be furious and their action will be critical to how this plays out
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 67,144
    Chris said:

    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    Again, why on earth pull it? It achieves precisely nothing, but robs the government of an "indicative" vote that would signify whether the House approves the deal.
    Twitter saying it can't be pulled if amended.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    Government pulls the vote and then we move descend head long to No Deal?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited October 2019
    Chris said:

    justin124 said:

    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?

    Why does Letwin's amendment delay the WAIB in any way?
    I am not suggesting that it does! The WAIB only arises as a result of a Deal being approved - which is not likely until the end of October.By that date no election could take place before mid- December. Moreover, if the Government proceeds with a Budget on 6th November any vote to approve Dissolution would have to come later still. Quite a few days would be taken up with debating the Budget , which takes us pretty well to mid-November.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,895
    I don't see why the Gov't pulls the vote even if Letwin passes.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,748
    The only other thing is if the government can satisfy Letwin enough that it removes the need for his amendment. Is there anything in their arsenal that they can use to try and get him to withdraw? In normal times reassurances would be enough but now that won’t cut it.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Letwin's basically knobbled this hasn't he... what a let down!

    Not sure.

    I think the EU are going to be furious and their action will be critical to how this plays out
    I've been out so relying on St Dan who doesn't seem impressed...

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1185241053818961925?s=20
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 25,429
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1185250882121879553

    Pretty sure Letwin will pass, so a major factor in this bet is whether Cummings pulls the whole thing straight afterwards. Although it looks like it would result in a void - so money back.

    Perhaps it would be nice if you told us which way you think it will go? Genuine question.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    justin124 said:

    Chris said:

    justin124 said:

    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?

    Why does Letwin's amendment delay the WAIB in any way?
    I am not suggesting that it does! The WAIB only arises as a result of a Deal being approved - which is not likely until the end of October.By that date no election could take place before mid- December. Moreover, if the Government proceeds with a Budget on 6th November and any vote to approve Dissolution would have to come later still. Quite a few days would be taken up with debating the Budget , which takes us pretty well to mid-November.
    I'm baffled by what you're saying.

    You wrote "Assuming it [Letwin's amendment] passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December."

    Surely it's the motion passing (amended or unamended) that necessitates the WAIB, not Letwin's amendment?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,293
    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    Good to be on the same page and I do not get any joy out of this either

    I only want the deal as I really do believe the referendum should be respected but in truth the best deal is being in the EU though that is my head ruling my heart
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,823
    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,631
    Wouldn't they have already drafted the actual withdrawal bill? No reason that can't pass in the next few sitting days.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    RobD said:

    Wouldn't they have already drafted the actual withdrawal bill? No reason that can't pass in the next few sitting days.

    More time for the DUP to pick away at the spartan support, and Labour to threaten their leavers.
  • isamisam Posts: 42,282
    edited October 2019
    So Letwin passing would render a vote tomorrow on the deal not "Meaningful"? Meaning the market in the thread header (Deal passing, 1.92 now) would be a loser?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,293
    RobD said:

    Wouldn't they have already drafted the actual withdrawal bill? No reason that can't pass in the next few sitting days.

    I would expect it to be put forward first thing next week and any extension request deferred by the EU as unnecessary
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    Good to be on the same page and I do not get any joy out of this either

    I only want the deal as I really do believe the referendum should be respected but in truth the best deal is being in the EU though that is my head ruling my heart
    I think the whole thing is a tragedy . I was very emotional watching , Tusk , Barnier and Varadkar in their news conference.

    After all the hate and right wing crap thrown at them and how they spoke in warm terms about the door always being open to the UK if it wanted to return one day .

    But what’s done is done . At least with a deal good relations can be preserved . No deal would have been an absolute catastrophe.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    Andrew said:

    RobD said:

    Wouldn't they have already drafted the actual withdrawal bill? No reason that can't pass in the next few sitting days.

    More time for the DUP to pick away at the spartan support, and Labour to threaten their leavers.
    It's no more time than they would have had anyway. To pass the WAIB Johnson will need to keep a majority behind the deal throughout the process.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peston on ITV News predicting Letwin will pass and next week we're into complete chaos.

    *%^"$£*^ Letwin!!! :D

    Why is it complete chaos? If the Letwin amendment passes, and then the amended motion passes, that will be understood as deferred approval of the deal.
    Grieve, a signatory, is backing something which is deferred approval of a deal? Colour me skeptical.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't see why the Gov't pulls the vote even if Letwin passes.

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1185215479448821760
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    Is there any chance that Bercow might not accept the Letwin amendment on the grounds that it effectively negates the MV (making it literally unmeaningful) and is therefore incompatible with the main motion?

    I know - I'm looking for straws to grasp here....
  • isamisam Posts: 42,282
    To Leave by or on 31 Oct is 7/4 now...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,823
    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    Good to be on the same page and I do not get any joy out of this either

    I only want the deal as I really do believe the referendum should be respected but in truth the best deal is being in the EU though that is my head ruling my heart
    I think the whole thing is a tragedy . I was very emotional watching , Tusk , Barnier and Varadkar in their news conference.

    After all the hate and right wing crap thrown at them and how they spoke in warm terms about the door always being open to the UK if it wanted to return one day .

    But what’s done is done . At least with a deal good relations can be preserved . No deal would have been an absolute catastrophe.
    However you said it. You're upset because people that are not qualified lose out.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Pulpstar said:

    I don't see why the Gov't pulls the vote even if Letwin passes.

    War of escalation. At least one Labour MP is reportedly prepating to back Letwin so they can put off an actual decision to approve or not, so the goverment pulls it, and follows through on its threats to see this play out in the courts by refusing to ask for an extension.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Chris said:

    justin124 said:

    Chris said:

    justin124 said:

    Is tomorrow shaping up to be an anti-climax as a result of Letwin's amendment? Assuming it passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December, which would be far too close to Christmas. It still makes it unclear that the Queens Speech will be approved. Ditto the Budget on November 6th. Will the DUP be in any mood to support the Government in either of those votes?

    Why does Letwin's amendment delay the WAIB in any way?
    I am not suggesting that it does! The WAIB only arises as a result of a Deal being approved - which is not likely until the end of October.By that date no election could take place before mid- December. Moreover, if the Government proceeds with a Budget on 6th November and any vote to approve Dissolution would have to come later still. Quite a few days would be taken up with debating the Budget , which takes us pretty well to mid-November.
    I'm baffled by what you're saying.

    You wrote "Assuming it [Letwin's amendment] passes, it must make a 2019 election much less likely - in that by the time the Withdrawal Bill is enacted no election could be held before mid- December."

    Surely it's the motion passing (amended or unamended) that necessitates the WAIB, not Letwin's amendment?
    Fair enough - my wording was a bit clumsy there. I do suspect that the Letwin amendment makes the main motion more palatable to a few Labour Leavers.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peston on ITV News predicting Letwin will pass and next week we're into complete chaos.

    *%^"$£*^ Letwin!!! :D

    Why is it complete chaos? If the Letwin amendment passes, and then the amended motion passes, that will be understood as deferred approval of the deal.
    Grieve, a signatory, is backing something which is deferred approval of a deal? Colour me skeptical.
    You're confusing the amendment with the motion.

    The motion is to express backing for the deal. If it's amended, it's meant to be understood as still expressing backing for the deal, but deferred so that it doesn't count as a meaningful motion for the purposes of the Benn Act.

    The amendment is an insurance policy against accidentally crashing out if there are problems with the process over the next couple of weeks. Obviously voting for the amendment isn't expressing backing for the deal.

    As far as I know, Grieve is backing the amendment, but not the motion, whether amended or not.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    TudorRose said:

    Is there any chance that Bercow might not accept the Letwin amendment on the grounds that it effectively negates the MV (making it literally unmeaningful) and is therefore incompatible with the main motion?

    I know - I'm looking for straws to grasp here....

    You never know . But some of the Tory rebels won’t vote for the deal without that insurance policy .
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    OGH asked about six hours ago what benefits he could now expect given that we are now leaving. I missed the hundreds of responses that he received can anyone summaries them for me without talking about sovereignty please
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,416
    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    I’m incredibly sad, too. My wife and I are stuck with British passports too; that’s not to say we’re not patriotic, but we like travelling while we still can, with as little hassle as possible. And we want our grandchildren to have the same opportunities our children had; European universities, Erasmus, easy international travel etc.
    But this has gone on long enough; I’ve a lot of sympathy with business who need some sort of ability to plan, and my former colleagues who need to have secure means of R&D co-operation.
    Time to make Johnson accept responsibility for the mess he has, and is, creating.
    Although Brexit is going to do a LOT of damage to the United Kingdom in all sorts of ways.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Chris said:

    Andrew said:

    RobD said:

    Wouldn't they have already drafted the actual withdrawal bill? No reason that can't pass in the next few sitting days.

    More time for the DUP to pick away at the spartan support, and Labour to threaten their leavers.
    It's no more time than they would have had anyway. To pass the WAIB Johnson will need to keep a majority behind the deal throughout the process.
    Yes, but once the deal is definitely approved, and the EU informed of such, it becomes much easier to pass a bill since a psycological rubicon has been crossed. There's no clearer proof of that than that the amendment's purpose means remainers can still hope, and waverers can continue to waver, the UK not being committeed to leaving yet, and additional prooff is how that deferral is being spun as the deal somehow passing despite the wording explicitly not passing it.

    Personally I'd prefer they just pass the second referendum amendment than one of two possibilities:

    1 the amendment really does approve the deal subject to legislation, in which case why not just approve, since parliament has the numbers to force the legislation if Boris plays silly buggers, or

    2 the amendment does what it says and witholds support, meaning the whole debate is just pushed into next week.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    TudorRose said:

    Is there any chance that Bercow might not accept the Letwin amendment on the grounds that it effectively negates the MV

    What do you think? ;)
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    Good to be on the same page and I do not get any joy out of this either

    I only want the deal as I really do believe the referendum should be respected but in truth the best deal is being in the EU though that is my head ruling my heart
    I think the whole thing is a tragedy . I was very emotional watching , Tusk , Barnier and Varadkar in their news conference.

    After all the hate and right wing crap thrown at them and how they spoke in warm terms about the door always being open to the UK if it wanted to return one day .

    But what’s done is done . At least with a deal good relations can be preserved . No deal would have been an absolute catastrophe.
    However you said it. You're upset because people that are not qualified lose out.

    No I didn’t mean it that way . I want all younger people to have those freedoms . I hope Johnson will agree to some policy to give younger people a bit more flexibility in terms of freedom of movement.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    I seriously doubt that the public is very tuned in to the detail of parliamentary procedure in that way. The effect may be to puncture any mood of relief or euphoria which may have been developing.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,823
    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    I find myself unable to comment in a civil fashion.

  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    nichomar said:

    OGH asked about six hours ago what benefits he could now expect given that we are now leaving. I missed the hundreds of responses that he received can anyone summaries them for me without talking about sovereignty please

    Benefits are personal. This is best illustrated by the trade deals with other countries, pro-EU people believe that the size of the market gets a better deal, leavers believe that negotiating with our own team focussing only on what matters to the UK gets a better deal.

    Nothing will change that, you just have to live with it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Letwin's basically knobbled this hasn't he... what a let down!

    Yes, it's very clever.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    nichomar said:

    OGH asked about six hours ago what benefits he could now expect given that we are now leaving. I missed the hundreds of responses that he received can anyone summaries them for me without talking about sovereignty please

    They mostly revolved around laughing at Nigel Farage being unemployed......
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    .
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,488
    Chris said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peston on ITV News predicting Letwin will pass and next week we're into complete chaos.

    *%^"$£*^ Letwin!!! :D

    Why is it complete chaos? If the Letwin amendment passes, and then the amended motion passes, that will be understood as deferred approval of the deal.
    Grieve, a signatory, is backing something which is deferred approval of a deal? Colour me skeptical.
    You're confusing the amendment with the motion.

    The motion is to express backing for the deal. If it's amended, it's meant to be understood as still expressing backing for the deal, but deferred so that it doesn't count as a meaningful motion for the purposes of the Benn Act.

    The amendment is an insurance policy against accidentally crashing out if there are problems with the process over the next couple of weeks. Obviously voting for the amendment isn't expressing backing for the deal.

    As far as I know, Grieve is backing the amendment, but not the motion, whether amended or not.
    Surely that is a nonsensical position to take. The only way the amendment can stand is if the motion passes. Without the motion there is no amendment.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 15,000
    Evening all :)

    My downbeat mood of this morning has been improved by the coming of the Letwin Amendment and we must all hope it passes and the WA can be properly taken through the legislative process with appropriate scrutiny.

    I'm quite certain the EU will take all us in their stride and offer a technical extension to allow proper scrutiny of the WA to take place.

    I cannot believe people were prepared to buy into any old snake oil put up by Johnson just as an excuse to "get Brexit over with". Anyone with half a brain will realise this is, to paraphrase Churchill, not the end or even the beginning of the end. We have the PD to resolve and I'm not entirely convinced for all his weasel words Johnson wouldn't take us out without an FTA on 31/12/20 if he could and especially if he is backed by a GE majority.

    The early polls are contradictory but I expect to see YoiGov showing the Conservatives at 40% on Sunday evening.
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683
    GIN1138 said:

    TudorRose said:

    Is there any chance that Bercow might not accept the Letwin amendment on the grounds that it effectively negates the MV

    What do you think? ;)
    Fair point! I suppose the real question is; is Bercow a Letwinite or is Letwin a Bercowite?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    justin124 said:

    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    I seriously doubt that the public is very tuned in to the detail of parliamentary procedure in that way. The effect may be to puncture any mood of relief or euphoria which may have been developing.
    They are very good at picking up on when MPs are being twats......
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,974
    nichomar said:

    OGH asked about six hours ago what benefits he could now expect given that we are now leaving. I missed the hundreds of responses that he received can anyone summaries them for me without talking about sovereignty please

    Blue passports! Yay!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    The Letwin amendment makes the deal vastly more likely to pass. Gives massive cover to vote for it.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 12,087
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Chris said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peston on ITV News predicting Letwin will pass and next week we're into complete chaos.

    *%^"$£*^ Letwin!!! :D

    Why is it complete chaos? If the Letwin amendment passes, and then the amended motion passes, that will be understood as deferred approval of the deal.
    Grieve, a signatory, is backing something which is deferred approval of a deal? Colour me skeptical.
    You're confusing the amendment with the motion.

    The motion is to express backing for the deal. If it's amended, it's meant to be understood as still expressing backing for the deal, but deferred so that it doesn't count as a meaningful motion for the purposes of the Benn Act.

    The amendment is an insurance policy against accidentally crashing out if there are problems with the process over the next couple of weeks. Obviously voting for the amendment isn't expressing backing for the deal.

    As far as I know, Grieve is backing the amendment, but not the motion, whether amended or not.
    Surely that is a nonsensical position to take. The only way the amendment can stand is if the motion passes. Without the motion there is no amendment.
    Of course you can support an amendment and still oppose the motion as amended. It's perfectly logical, if you think the motion is dangerous, but that the amendment lessens the danger.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    Spell out what freedoms that younger generation are losing, please.

    Use both sides of the paper.

    If you can.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited October 2019
    MarqueeMark said:

    nichomar said:

    OGH asked about six hours ago what benefits he could now expect given that we are now leaving. I missed the hundreds of responses that he received can anyone summaries them for me without talking about sovereignty please

    They mostly revolved around laughing at Nigel Farage being unemployed......
    Well I could sign up to that, but I do have a serious, question did Johnson manage to take out the requirement for the UK to adopt EU law during the transition phase? If they did then farage might as well pack up and go home because he loses his backers?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,210
    Chris said:

    SandyRentool said:

    If the United Front Against Bozo's Deal thought they'd win the vote tomorrow then why bother with the Letwin Amendment?

    Letwin is voting for the deal. The point of it is to make sure that we don't crash out without a deal if the WAIB takes longer than anticipated to pass.
    But 300-odd of those voting for Letwin will vote against the deal. It's a mess.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,239
    edited October 2019
    Remain at all cost MPs ought to be ashamed of themselves.

    First Grieve wants a meaningful vote, and so passes an amendment to secure it. Then Letwin decides it shouldn’t in fact be meaningful at all.

    Make your mind up, Remainers, do you want to be meaningful or not?

    This is going to go down like a bucket of cold sick on the doorsteps.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    Chris said:

    kle4 said:

    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Peston on ITV News predicting Letwin will pass and next week we're into complete chaos.

    *%^"$£*^ Letwin!!! :D

    Why is it complete chaos? If the Letwin amendment passes, and then the amended motion passes, that will be understood as deferred approval of the deal.
    Grieve, a signatory, is backing something which is deferred approval of a deal? Colour me skeptical.
    You're confusing the amendment with the motion.

    The motion is to express backing for the deal. If it's amended, it's meant to be understood as still expressing backing for the deal, but deferred so that it doesn't count as a meaningful motion for the purposes of the Benn Act.

    The amendment is an insurance policy against accidentally crashing out if there are problems with the process over the next couple of weeks. Obviously voting for the amendment isn't expressing backing for the deal.

    As far as I know, Grieve is backing the amendment, but not the motion, whether amended or not.
    Surely that is a nonsensical position to take. The only way the amendment can stand is if the motion passes. Without the motion there is no amendment.
    If one wants to be very generous one could suppose that he wants to ensure the process is better even if he will not back that process all the way through himself. That witholding support means there is another opportunity to reject things makes that seem a bit doubtful. Why are Labour backing it, while still voting no at the end(?), and no doubt intending to vote down the WAIB, if approving the amended motion is showing approval for the deal?

    And Grieve is also a supporter of ramming legislation through in a day if needs be, so he doesn't care about proper scrutiny in all situations.

    But if Alistair is right
    Alistair said:

    The Letwin amendment makes the deal vastly more likely to pass. Gives massive cover to vote for it.

    then Grieve is now a facilitator for leaving.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    MarqueeMark said:

    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    Spell out what freedoms that younger generation are losing, please.

    Use both sides of the paper.

    If you can.
    Oh purleeze....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    edited October 2019
    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    You better hope then that Bercow was looking for a tasty sinecure in Brussels. In which case, to keep that on track he will rule Letwin invalid as being a wrecking amendment....
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    The Letwin Amendment means there’s no approval for the deal . It’s basically saying we’ve declined to say yes or no .

    Some amendments add to a motion this replaces most of the motion .

    It might be he pulls this in the morning if the government finds a way to alleviate concerns .
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    justin124 said:

    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    I seriously doubt that the public is very tuned in to the detail of parliamentary procedure in that way. The effect may be to puncture any mood of relief or euphoria which may have been developing.
    Or, indeed, terror at the prospect of it possibly passing. Politics this week has built up to a 'this is it' moment, which now won't happen, even if the delay is not long. Vast annoyance will abound, I am sure, but little change in support for any option.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 55,538
    Streeter said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    Spell out what freedoms that younger generation are losing, please.

    Use both sides of the paper.

    If you can.
    Oh purleeze....
    Or you can answer on his behalf. Purleeze....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,797
    SandyRentool said:

    Chris said:

    SandyRentool said:

    If the United Front Against Bozo's Deal thought they'd win the vote tomorrow then why bother with the Letwin Amendment?

    Letwin is voting for the deal. The point of it is to make sure that we don't crash out without a deal if the WAIB takes longer than anticipated to pass.
    But 300-odd of those voting for Letwin will vote against the deal. It's a mess.
    When was it not ?

    There is zero trust on either side. The Letwin amendment is necessary.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    edited October 2019
    SandyRentool said:

    Chris said:

    SandyRentool said:

    If the United Front Against Bozo's Deal thought they'd win the vote tomorrow then why bother with the Letwin Amendment?

    Letwin is voting for the deal. The point of it is to make sure that we don't crash out without a deal if the WAIB takes longer than anticipated to pass.
    But 300-odd of those voting for Letwin will vote against the deal. It's a mess.
    Precisely. The 31st October deadline is a political one and total nonsense, and absolutely legislation needs to be properly considered and go through proper processes to be passed, but most of those voting for the Letwin amendment don't want the deal to pass at all, so is it actually about helping it pass? Letwin may think so, he's no remain fanatic, but the hundreds who back have the same motivation?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,416
    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    nico67 said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    rottenborough said:

    BF says:


    For clarity if the House of Commons vote to amend the motion then this market will be settled on the vote on the Government Motion AS AMENDED

    Maybe a little bit of thought

    If Letwin is the only successful amendment the deal passes subject to the Withdrawal Bill passing next week

    If so the mps have surely lost their chance to show the EU there is a majority in the HOC for a GE or especially a referendum so any extension which is requested would be short and only for technical reasons thereby making the deal certain, as no deal is the only other option

    Good point . It’s unlikely the EU would offer any further extensions at that point . I’m a Remainer for a deal now so as long as the deal goes through I’m fine.

    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    However I can’t see a second vote happening so it’s pointless dragging this out for much longer , a few extra weeks to get everything through and then that’s it.
    Good to be on the same page and I do not get any joy out of this either

    I only want the deal as I really do believe the referendum should be respected but in truth the best deal is being in the EU though that is my head ruling my heart
    I think the whole thing is a tragedy . I was very emotional watching , Tusk , Barnier and Varadkar in their news conference.

    After all the hate and right wing crap thrown at them and how they spoke in warm terms about the door always being open to the UK if it wanted to return one day .

    But what’s done is done . At least with a deal good relations can be preserved . No deal would have been an absolute catastrophe.
    However you said it. You're upset because people that are not qualified lose out.

    No I didn’t mean it that way . I want all younger people to have those freedoms . I hope Johnson will agree to some policy to give younger people a bit more flexibility in terms of freedom of movement.
    Quite right.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,082
    "Sheffield constituents offer absent MP a lift to parliament for Johnson deal vote"
    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/will-jared-o-mara-vote-for-boris-johnson-deal-1-6330856
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,239
    nico67 said:

    The Letwin Amendment means there’s no approval for the deal . It’s basically saying we’ve declined to say yes or no .

    Some amendments add to a motion this replaces most of the motion .

    It might be he pulls this in the morning if the government finds a way to alleviate concerns .

    The petty mindedness of those MPs who can’t accept they’ve lost absolutely infuriates me.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 79,797
    MarqueeMark said:

    Streeter said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    Spell out what freedoms that younger generation are losing, please.

    Use both sides of the paper.

    If you can.
    Oh purleeze....
    Or you can answer on his behalf. Purleeze....
    Good to know we have a thread monitor.
    Work it out for yourself.
  • humbuggerhumbugger Posts: 377
    MarqueeMark said:

    humbugger said:

    Good evening all. I expect a successful Letwin amendment to be very badly received indeed by the public and also the EU. It is a desperate attempt by Remainer fanatics to delay and thwart Brexit. The public have had enough of these parliamentary tactics and MPs should realise that and defeat Letwin.

    You better hope then that Bercow was looking for a tasty sinecure in Brussels. In which case, to keep that on track he will rule Letwin invalid as being a wrecking amendment....
    Letwin is clearly a wrecking amendment. And as for the argument that it's designed to enable the Deal to be properly scrutinised, I'm afraid that's drivel. Letwin, Grieve and Benn are quite happy to ram a Bill through Parliament in a day, when it suits them. The public will not be amused by these games, nor will the EU.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684
    MarqueeMark said:

    Streeter said:

    MarqueeMark said:

    nico67 said:

    Omnium said:

    nico67 said:


    I’m incredibly sad about Brexit , not so much for myself as I can qualify for an EU passport through my parents but for the younger generation .

    Quite who are you sad for?

    For the younger generation who won’t have the same freedoms that many of my age have enjoyed .

    Spell out what freedoms that younger generation are losing, please.

    Use both sides of the paper.

    If you can.
    Oh purleeze....
    Or you can answer on his behalf. Purleeze....
    Can’t be arsed. You’d argue black was white if the EU said there was a total absence of electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,322
    If the deal goes through, and Bercow has to cast his vote to push it through, it would make my day.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    Mortimer said:

    nico67 said:

    The Letwin Amendment means there’s no approval for the deal . It’s basically saying we’ve declined to say yes or no .

    Some amendments add to a motion this replaces most of the motion .

    It might be he pulls this in the morning if the government finds a way to alleviate concerns .

    The petty mindedness of those MPs who can’t accept they’ve lost absolutely infuriates me.

    They haven't lost yet. The battle goes on. I'd rather it be settled tomorrow, hopefully with a referendum (though that looks unlikely), but I guess the winds aren't right and we'll defer until next week.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,942
    Mortimer said:

    nico67 said:

    The Letwin Amendment means there’s no approval for the deal . It’s basically saying we’ve declined to say yes or no .

    Some amendments add to a motion this replaces most of the motion .

    It might be he pulls this in the morning if the government finds a way to alleviate concerns .

    The petty mindedness of those MPs who can’t accept they’ve lost absolutely infuriates me.

    Given the replies here you aren't the only one ;)


    https://twitter.com/oletwinofficial/status/1185238071735996416
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,232
    logical_song said:

    "Sheffield constituents offer absent MP a lift to parliament for Johnson deal vote"
    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/will-jared-o-mara-vote-for-boris-johnson-deal-1-6330856

    I was wondering what might be up with him. Notwithstanding any legitimate health issues he may have, surely someone will ensure he is dragged to the Commons to vote somehow? His vote, or absence, could well decide the destiny of this country! (or could have, if Letwin were not likely to pass, putting off that moment).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,895
    Letwin tweet has 40 likes, 392 replies.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    This has outlier written all over it ...
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=21
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    kle4 said:

    logical_song said:

    "Sheffield constituents offer absent MP a lift to parliament for Johnson deal vote"
    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/will-jared-o-mara-vote-for-boris-johnson-deal-1-6330856

    I was wondering what might be up with him. Notwithstanding any legitimate health issues he may have, surely someone will ensure he is dragged to the Commons to vote somehow? His vote, or absence, could well decide the destiny of this country! (or could have, if Letwin were not likely to pass, putting off that moment).
    Any Extinction Rebellion protests planned for tomorrow? It'd be hilarious if one or more MPs is unable to get to the Commons because of them.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    dr_spyn said:

    If the deal goes through, and Bercow has to cast his vote to push it through, it would make my day.

    He shouldn’t by convention, casting votes should go with the status quo
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Worrying development:

    "Hong Kong protesters in UK say they face pro-Beijing intimidation
    Police have had to intervene and separate groups at events in university cities"

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/18/hong-kong-protesters-uk-pro-beijing-intimidation
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,416
    How will rail pass or the equivalent work after Brexit?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 5,714
    GIN1138 said:

    Mortimer said:

    nico67 said:

    The Letwin Amendment means there’s no approval for the deal . It’s basically saying we’ve declined to say yes or no .

    Some amendments add to a motion this replaces most of the motion .

    It might be he pulls this in the morning if the government finds a way to alleviate concerns .

    The petty mindedness of those MPs who can’t accept they’ve lost absolutely infuriates me.

    Given the replies here you aren't the only one ;)


    https://twitter.com/oletwinofficial/status/1185238071735996416
    I’m not one to argue with a trained lawyer but that’s not the case . The amendment takes out any approval . Once amended the government motion is not a MV4 .

    I urge fellow posters to look at the amendment, it clearly removes that approval .
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,965
    SouthamObserver said:

    This has outlier written all over it ...
    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1185255941509451777?s=21

    Why everybody else has your Tory Swinson party on 17% or less
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,631
    OldKingCole said:

    How will rail pass or the equivalent work after Brexit?

    They said the interrail scheme would continue.
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    Humbugger appears on here two weeks ago and attacks all-things-remain. Hmmmm .....

    Anyway, if I were a Leaver and I was peeling back the foil from the champagne bottles, I'd be furious too.

    But stop a moment. This is a really vital piece of legislation that will affect this country for generations. Taking an extra fortnight or two in order properly to scrutinise it is absolutely right and proper.
This discussion has been closed.

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