This is a fundamental difference of philosophy. There are lots of laws I don't like but I don't advocate breaking them. If we as a country don't like particular laws and regulations the answer is not to just pretend they don't exist but to get them repealed or modified.
Life is too short to wait around for things to become legal. For someone who wants to be free you don't seem to want to be very free.
I suppose if you are someone who doesn't care about the law or democracy then it doesn't really matter whether it is EU or UK law you are ignoring.
No what it is saying is that the level at which laws and regulations are decided should always be the lowest practicable. There should be a huge increase in the amount of decision making done at the local level. Those things that are not suitable for that level should be promoted to national level. There absolutely no reason under such a scheme for a Governmental entity above national level interfering in laws and regulations that should properly be decided much further down the chain.
There is an argument made that there are some things hat are better dealt with at supranational level but that does not require governance at that level - just the sorts of bilateral and multilateral agreements that have existed for decades. There is certainly no need for a supranational law making body like the EU.
It is hard to achieve the level of economic integration that the EU has achieved in its single market without a supranational mechanism for deciding and enforcing a common rule book. The kind of deals you are talking about support a far lower level of integration. I honestly can't think of a single EU rule that has negatively affected my life. All the important decisions about things that matter are made at the UK level or by devolved governments. I would like to see far more devolution by the way, would be great if London could stop subsidising the rest of the country. We need a new tube line where I live and it's crazy we're being asked to pay for stuff in Wales or Hartlepool or wherever instead. Anyway, it's stupid to keep rehearsing the argument over Brexit. You Leavers have won, congratulations. You'd better start demonstrating how your great project is going to make our lives better. Because if control over our chicken feed laws is the best you can come up with I think you're going to be in trouble.
Its all part of the ongoing struggle. Brexit is not the end, just one important step on the way.
To what? Some kind of anarcho-poulty utopia? Seriously, what is all this for in your mind?
Democracy.
I think that Brexit is going to be a big disappointment for you.
Farage will be very upset - he's enjoyed for years the effect of having 20 or so MPs in parliament without the hassle of having to actually corral them, and now they are going rogue on him.
Interesting to see the report that Aaron Banks backs the Deal as well. Farage is rapidly losing his last few remaining allies.
There was a young man named Farage Who one day got locked in his garage He campaigned so hard But let down his guard And fell to an electoral barrage.
I'd have expected better scanning from you, Sunil. Clunky.
No what it is saying is that the level at which laws and regulations are decided should always be the lowest practicable. There should be a huge increase in the amount of decision making done at the local level. Those things that are not suitable for that level should be promoted to national level. There absolutely no reason under such a scheme for a Governmental entity above national level interfering in laws and regulations that should properly be decided much further down the chain.
There is an argument made that there are some things hat are better dealt with at supranational level but that does not require governance at that level - just the sorts of bilateral and multilateral agreements that have existed for decades. There is certainly no need for a supranational law making body like the EU.
It is hard to achieve the level of economic integration that the EU has achieved in its single market without a supranational mechanism for deciding and enforcing a common rule book. The kind of deals you are talking about support a far lower level of integration. I honestly can't think of a single EU rule that has negatively affected my life. All the important decisions about things that matter are made at the UK level or by devolved governments. I would like to see far more devolution by the way, would be great if London could stop subsidising the rest of the country. We need a new tube line where I live and it's crazy we're being asked to pay for stuff in Wales or Hartlepool or wherever instead. Anyway, it's stupid to keep rehearsing the argument over Brexit. You Leavers have won, congratulations. You'd better start demonstrating how your great project is going to make our lives better. Because if control over our chicken feed laws is the best you can come up with I think you're going to be in trouble.
Its all part of the ongoing struggle. Brexit is not the end, just one important step on the way.
To what? Some kind of anarcho-poulty utopia? Seriously, what is all this for in your mind?
Democracy.
I think that Brexit is going to be a big disappointment for you.
Nope. It is just one step along the way. If we don't take that step we are giving up on any meaningful improvements in our democratic systems.
The replies to Flint vowing "Never to vote Labour again" based on her actions are as odd as people vowing to never vote Tory again because of Grieve ! Basing your actions off of MPs that represent a couple of % at most of the entire parliamentary party...
This is a fundamental difference of philosophy. There are lots of laws I don't like but I don't advocate breaking them. If we as a country don't like particular laws and regulations the answer is not to just pretend they don't exist but to get them repealed or modified.
Life is too short to wait around for things to become legal. For someone who wants to be free you don't seem to want to be very free.
I suppose if you are someone who doesn't care about the law or democracy then it doesn't really matter whether it is EU or UK law you are ignoring.
Sorry if I have offended your sense of decency. I have to attend a drinks reception now. Enjoy your evening of legal activities.
Why everybody else has your Tory Swinson party on 17% or less
Bullying of a female party leader is not a good look. You should drop it.
BJO is a fool but why is criticising Swinson bullying? I thought grown ups believed in equality these days. Get a grip.
Nah BJO goes on at and about her because he is a coward.
Fool AND Coward!! Jackpot.
I take pathetic slurs like that as a good reason to keep banging on about the shite Tory Swinson party.
Dick.
When did you last win an argument with silly name calling?
When you were 5?
Have a nice sleep
Yours
The fool, coward and dick..
See you tomorrow for more Tory Swinson analysis.
It has to be said your withering verbiage is definitely persuading me to switch back to Labour from the LDs. There’s nothing more sure to get my vote than a good insult.
The Telegraph have slowly been upping the number of MPs supporting the deal through the day. Anyone know where they are getting their numbers and if anyone else is confirming them. They currently have it 320:312 in favour.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
Remain has lost but entirely due to itself. It was arguing about who should be the PM of a caretaker government rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Why everybody else has your Tory Swinson party on 17% or less
Bullying of a female party leader is not a good look. You should drop it.
BJO is a fool but why is criticising Swinson bullying? I thought grown ups believed in equality these days. Get a grip.
Nah BJO goes on at and about her because he is a coward.
You are really being quite stupid to expect a female politician to be treated dofferently to any other. His politics are lousy but he is passionate and his criticism of Swinson is perfectly logical. Stop being her proxy snowflake.
Don't be a c**t. He is emboldened because she is female. Such vituperation is classic bully coward MO. He persists against her because he perceives himself as safe from reprisal.
But knock yourself out keep on defending him.
Viteruperation sorry don't know that one.
Have you not noticed the posters defending me aren't usually allies.
I like that idea. But I would also try and reduce the power of the parties. Introduce a power of recall tied to compulsory MPs personal manifestos
I will/won't vote for X. If they act counter to the promises then their constituents can start the recall process.
As I have said before I would also reduce the power of the whips.
Thank you for the kind word.
I'm just struggling to see how what you want could or would work under FPTP. Parties are broad churches and while some manifesto pledges are quite specific, others are much more general.
MPs are not just representatives of East Ham, Ilford South, Maidenhead or wherever - there is a wider remit under which they represent all of us through the decision making process and therefore speak for all of us.
Housing is a good example - we need more houses but MPs representing areas with an active anti-development community have to accept they may pay a political price for promoting something clearly in the national benefit.
The problem is MPs want to keep their jobs and be popular so they tend to speak to what's considered popular by polls and focus groups rather than what's right. That challenges the fundamental view as people understand democracy that if a majority chooses something that's the route we go.
It's not that I'm losing faith in democracy per se but I see its inadequacies all too clearly. Despite what's happened I think there's a role for more referenda at local level - I don't regard the fact that Newham is a one party state with 60 Labour Councillors as inherently desirable and I think PR at local level is hard to argue against.
Nationally it's tougher - to what extent are my interests as a Londoner similar to someone living in Devon or Durham? Yes we're all English but that doesn't make us all the same and governing us all in the same way seems misguided.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
Remain has lost but entirely due to itself. It was arguing about who should be the PM of a caretaker government rather than looking at the bigger picture.
While the new WA has not passed yet, and is not guaranteed to, that failure is looking far more problematic now - it seems they too believed that Boris was not serious about getting a deal, or that the EU would not do one with him, even with the Benn Act in play, and so there was no need to remove him and prevent even the possibility of him negotiating something new which might pass.
If a deal does pass it is hard to see how that argument between the opposition parties was anything other than destructive, since if they had agreed upon anybody it would definitely have prevented this exit. Who would get the most blame?
Hillary seeing Russians behind everything again. Projection at its finest. How much did Bill make speaking in Russia after that cooky Uranium deal again?
Tulsi Gabbard is a Putin loving Assad apologist.
Putin / Russian tentacles can be found in many countries. Many have been sleepers for many years. Many not. Le Pen, Salvini, Orban . There is a noticeable slant. Most have populist right wing slant. Trump. But, as I said, they have sleepers too. Putin's tactics are sophisticated. He will have sleepers on both sides of the political divide. Hillary is not the first to talk about Tulsi. She is close to Modi.
I like that idea. But I would also try and reduce the power of the parties. Introduce a power of recall tied to compulsory MPs personal manifestos
I will/won't vote for X. If they act counter to the promises then their constituents can start the recall process.
As I have said before I would also reduce the power of the whips.
Thank you for the kind word.
I'm just struggling to see how what you want could or would work under FPTP. Parties are broad churches and while some manifesto pledges are quite specific, others are much more general.
MPs are not just representatives of East Ham, Ilford South, Maidenhead or wherever - there is a wider remit under which they represent all of us through the decision making process and therefore speak for all of us.
Housing is a good example - we need more houses but MPs representing areas with an active anti-development community have to accept they may pay a political price for promoting something clearly in the national benefit.
The problem is MPs want to keep their jobs and be popular so they tend to speak to what's considered popular by polls and focus groups rather than what's right. That challenges the fundamental view as people understand democracy that if a majority chooses something that's the route we go.
It's not that I'm losing faith in democracy per se but I see its inadequacies all too clearly. Despite what's happened I think there's a role for more referenda at local level - I don't regard the fact that Newham is a one party state with 60 Labour Councillors as inherently desirable and I think PR at local level is hard to argue against.
Nationally it's tougher - to what extent are my interests as a Londoner similar to someone living in Devon or Durham? Yes we're all English but that doesn't make us all the same and governing us all in the same way seems misguided.
To answer your very first point. I don't think FPTP is the problem although I would agree it probably needs to be changed for another voting system. But the important point is that it is not how the MPs are currently elected that is the problem, it is the fact that the Parties are subsequently able to threaten or bribe those MPs to maintain party discipline even when it means voting against the interests of their own constituents.
I would suggest we ned to separate the Executive from Parliament and prevent ministerial positions being used as bargaining chips to secure loyalty. Votes in Parliament should be won on the strength of the argument not the bribing or blackmailing of MPs.
The Telegraph have slowly been upping the number of MPs supporting the deal through the day. Anyone know where they are getting their numbers and if anyone else is confirming them. They currently have it 320:312 in favour.
Reading tea leaves (ie twitter) and educated guesswork I suspect, same as the FT or BBC. FT have upped their estimate of Lab votes from 7 to 10 to get to 319 in favour. Plausibility is hard to say, but the guesses on most ERGers being on board looks to be sound, and supposedly most of the ex-con are making positive noises.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
Remain has lost but entirely due to itself. It was arguing about who should be the PM of a caretaker government rather than looking at the bigger picture.
While the new WA has not passed yet, and is not guaranteed to, that failure is looking far more problematic now - it seems they too believed that Boris was not serious about getting a deal, or that the EU would not do one with him, even with the Benn Act in play, and so there was no need to remove him and prevent even the possibility of him negotiating something new which might pass.
If a deal does pass it is hard to see how that argument between the opposition parties was anything other than destructive, since if they had agreed upon anybody it would definitely have prevented this exit. Who would get the most blame?
The Airhead has to take a lot of the blame. The second largest party , the SNP, was ready for Corbyn to be caretaker PM. What could Corbyn do by himself ? He only has 250 MPs. But the Airhead thought because she got the higher Remain vote in a meaningless election, she could somehow dictate terms. Remember, UKIP also "won" a Euro election. Fat good it did them in the following GE. The Greens once got 15% of the votes. We know what happened to them.
My problem is with those who believe "national" Government should be the repository of all power and accountability. There are issues (climate change) which require a regional if not a global approach but I also despair at Westminster controlling local authorities.
I don't see the EU as relevant to climate change.
Climate change needs global solutions implemented locally. EU isn't relevant for global or local.
Whether agreements on CFCs or agreements like Kyoto the EU is basically a bystander.
Unfortunately, your anti-EU tunnel vision means you've picked the word "regional" and assumed I meant the EU which I never said.
Agreeing a policy with the rest of Europe isn't a bad thing - we don't have to be different or divergent with them just for the hell of it.
Your attitude to the EU isn't mine - as far as I'm concerned we leave in sorrow more than anger but if you prefer to be angry fine. There are other things in this world to be angry about and once we've left the EU you and the others who have spent years railing against Brussels can find something useful to be angry about.
How about modern slavery or the destruction of wildlife or pollution or levels of poverty or bad housing?
If, outside the EU, we can be a leading force fighting those battles both at home and abroad then leaving will have been fully justified.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
Remain has lost but entirely due to itself. It was arguing about who should be the PM of a caretaker government rather than looking at the bigger picture.
Making this about win/ lose is precisely why we're 3 years in and talking about not giving up the fight. It's shite. Grow up.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
They've been knocked down twice in the 7th and are getting battered from pillar to post by the blonde Bomber. Their corner really should chuck in the towel but in they go for another round.
If they delay brexit now the public will batter them at the next election.
I'm starting to get worried about what might happen if we get another stalemate situation tomorrow in parliament. People are fed up with this debate going nowhere.
The Telegraph have slowly been upping the number of MPs supporting the deal through the day. Anyone know where they are getting their numbers and if anyone else is confirming them. They currently have it 320:312 in favour.
Reading tea leaves (ie twitter) and educated guesswork I suspect, same as the FT or BBC. FT have upped their estimate of Lab votes from 7 to 10 to get to 319 in favour. Plausibility is hard to say, but the guesses on most ERGers being on board looks to be sound, and supposedly most of the ex-con are making positive noises.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
Remain has lost but entirely due to itself. It was arguing about who should be the PM of a caretaker government rather than looking at the bigger picture.
While the new WA has not passed yet, and is not guaranteed to, that failure is looking far more problematic now - it seems they too believed that Boris was not serious about getting a deal, or that the EU would not do one with him, even with the Benn Act in play, and so there was no need to remove him and prevent even the possibility of him negotiating something new which might pass.
If a deal does pass it is hard to see how that argument between the opposition parties was anything other than destructive, since if they had agreed upon anybody it would definitely have prevented this exit. Who would get the most blame?
The Airhead has to take a lot of the blame. The second largest party , the SNP, was ready for Corbyn to be caretaker PM. What could Corbyn do by himself ? He only has 250 MPs. But the Airhead thought because she got the higher Remain vote in a meaningless election, she could somehow dictate terms. Remember, UKIP also "won" a Euro election. Fat good it did them in the following GE. The Greens once got 15% of the votes. We know what happened to them.
The Telegraph have slowly been upping the number of MPs supporting the deal through the day. Anyone know where they are getting their numbers and if anyone else is confirming them. They currently have it 320:312 in favour.
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
The Lib Dems hard to say , although I can understand many might think they’re screwed but there are a lot of angry Remainers out there.
There will be plenty of angry Remainers who think "fuck the lot of them if they couldn't stop Brexit" - and sit on their arses on polling day.
No. Though we on the Remain side have lost, we don't feel any anger or disappointment towards the Remainer politicians who have kept on fighting for our interests. If anything respect for Remainer politicians from Remain voters has grown. We won't be staying at home or, in any other way, punishing Remainer politicians for trying their best against the odds.
Remain hasn't lost yet.
They've been knocked down twice in the 7th and are getting battered from pillar to post by the blonde Bomber. Their corner really should chuck in the towel but in they go for another round.
If they delay brexit now the public will batter them at the next election.
I'm starting to get worried about what might happen if we get another stalemate situation tomorrow in parliament. People are fed up with this debate going nowhere.
No they aren't. They think they are, but that's not the same. Leave vs Remain strength does not seem do have dimmed much in polling, no side's supporters have been worn out and given up yet. I believe Mr Meeks has raised the point that until one side believes victory is impossible, that won't shift.
Tomorrow could have signalled victory was impossible for one side (or very difficult for the leave side if a referendum were tacked on), but we're not quite there. It does feel like the last stand of the Remainers this week, or like a Boxing match where leave is finishing stronger as we get into the final round, the knockout blow is almost there, but they are going to lose on points if they don't end it before the bell.
Farage will be very upset - he's enjoyed for years the effect of having 20 or so MPs in parliament without the hassle of having to actually corral them, and now they are going rogue on him.
Interesting to see the report that Aaron Banks backs the Deal as well. Farage is rapidly losing his last few remaining allies.
There was a young man named Farage Who one day got locked in his garage He campaigned so hard But let down his guard And fell to an electoral barrage.
I'd have expected better scanning from you, Sunil. Clunky.
What else rhymes with Farage? Gastric lavage?
Not much, but large, barge, corsage, sparge etc. are more likely candidates than garage.
I'm starting to get worried about what might happen if we get another stalemate situation tomorrow in parliament. People are fed up with this debate going nowhere.
Far more young people will be annoyed if we do Brexit. After all, we are the majority now.
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
John, much as I support your freedom to post as you have, I think Remain obsessives are not exclusively female.
Well no there are loads in my own party the majority of whom are male and who I strongly disagree with.
It just so happens LD/PC/CHUK/Green all currently are led by females. Which is totally irrelevant except a poster accuses me of bullying cowardice and being a "dick" for posting my views on one of them stating i am only doing it because she is female.
When we look back, has Brexit benefitted anything other than the career of Boris Johnson? I mean, please, correct me on this!
We haven't BREXITed yet so how the fuck can you judge the consequences? Stand corrected.
Calm down. By ‘Brexit’ I meant the political, social and economic environment brought about by the Leave vote. I thought that was an obvious and well understood shorthand. But my question still stands: other than Boris Johnson, who’s actually benefitted from all this?
This will be termed Project Fear. Mike, the game is lost ! You and I will disagree about who were the main culprits. They all were. It is the degree which is in dispute. Remember, this is a Parliament which still has a Remain majority. But Johnson blew them out of the park.
My problem is with those who believe "national" Government should be the repository of all power and accountability. There are issues (climate change) which require a regional if not a global approach but I also despair at Westminster controlling local authorities.
I don't see the EU as relevant to climate change.
Climate change needs global solutions implemented locally. EU isn't relevant for global or local.
Whether agreements on CFCs or agreements like Kyoto the EU is basically a bystander.
Unfortunately, your anti-EU tunnel vision means you've picked the word "regional" and assumed I meant the EU which I never said.
Agreeing a policy with the rest of Europe isn't a bad thing - we don't have to be different or divergent with them just for the hell of it....
Indeed, and climate change is an excellent example.
An electric grid run on renewables is likely to work far better at the regional level - we have an embryonic form of it with the current inter-country interconnects. And the ‘regions’ can be pretty large; for example, there are commercial plans in the offing for a marine cable to supply Singapore with solar power from Australia.
As far as the EU itself is concerned, how a major trading block which sets policies regulations ‘isn’t relevant’ seems... curious.
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Thanks. I concur with your views and will continue to post about the hypocrisy and uselessness of Tory Swinson Not because she is a woman but because she is a hypocrite with a terrible voting record who is neither Liberal or a Democrat.
This will be termed Project Fear. Mike, the game is lost ! You and I will disagree about who were the main culprits. They all were. It is the degree which is in dispute. Remember, this is a Parliament which still has a Remain majority. But Johnson blew them out of the park.
I expect the deal to go through, but to claim it won’t cost the country is absurd. The government’s own estimates say as much.
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Thanks. I concur with your views and will continue to post about the hypocrisy and uselessness of Tory Swinson Not because she is a woman but because she is a hypocrite with a terrible voting record who is neither Liberal or a Democrat.
I agree with this strongly...
But just to clarify from earlier the leader of PC is an entirely forgettable man, not a woman...
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Thanks. I concur with your views and will continue to post about the hypocrisy and uselessness of Tory Swinson Not because she is a woman but because she is a hypocrite with a terrible voting record who is neither Liberal or a Democrat.
I agree with this strongly...
But just to clarify from earlier the leader of PC is an entirely forgettable man, not a woman...
This will be termed Project Fear. Mike, the game is lost ! You and I will disagree about who were the main culprits. They all were. It is the degree which is in dispute. Remember, this is a Parliament which still has a Remain majority. But Johnson blew them out of the park.
I expect the deal to go through, but to claim it won’t cost the country is absurd. The government’s own estimates say as much.
Of course, it will. But Brexiteers are as if in a trance. For them, however, the difficulties or hardships, everything is worth it because of the glorious independence. Just wait for a June 23rd bank holiday !
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Thanks. I concur with your views and will continue to post about the hypocrisy and uselessness of Tory Swinson Not because she is a woman but because she is a hypocrite with a terrible voting record who is neither Liberal or a Democrat.
I agree with this strongly...
But just to clarify from earlier the leader of PC is an entirely forgettable man, not a woman...
The leader of PC in the HoC is an [English ] woman. Just to clarify, nothing wrong with that. She can speak Welsh.
My heart belongs to Bernie but Tulsi is pulling on my heart strings with that passion and fire directed towards American foreign policy!
Yes, yes, but what does your wallet say. Some of us made a lot of money on the last presidential election from this site (thanks Mike, I was a lurker and I did then donate a chunk). We need thoughts to chew over.
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
He thinks any Labour MP backing the deal "lacks moral fibre" and presumably should be turfed out of the Party.
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
Also, when Kirsty Wark introduced him as an activist, he bellowed 'JOURNALIST' at her.
What. A. Prick.
He is another one obsessed with Remain
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
Paul Mason barely knows what day it is.
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Thanks. I concur with your views and will continue to post about the hypocrisy and uselessness of Tory Swinson Not because she is a woman but because she is a hypocrite with a terrible voting record who is neither Liberal or a Democrat.
I agree with this strongly...
But just to clarify from earlier the leader of PC is an entirely forgettable man, not a woman...
The leader of PC in the HoC is an [English ] woman. Just to clarify, nothing wrong with that. She can speak Welsh.
We have Englishness partially in common but living in South Wales I'm not sure about this whole foreign language thing...
As BJO said 4 Female leaders I assumed he meant party leaders which is why it would be Sturgeon and PC man (Adam Price I think) instead of the HoC leaders.
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Without doubt one of the most absurd sentences ever uttered on PB but if you want to play that game I would also say to any Tory MP thinking of voting with Corbyn and his anti Semitic henchmen against the Brexit Deal tomorrow to think again
My heart belongs to Bernie but Tulsi is pulling on my heart strings with that passion and fire directed towards American foreign policy!
Yes, yes, but what does your wallet say. Some of us made a lot of money on the last presidential election from this site (thanks Mike, I was a lurker and I did then donate a chunk). We need thoughts to chew over.
My wallet says gambling is a tax on the poor and despite a massive interest in football you were terrible at fantasy football and had a mixed record on prediction competitions so an area you know a bit less about such as politics is something you really should not gamble on.
My head says Tulsi is already out though this will help attract attention, it could help Bernie maybe if she does go out soon or I guess hurt him if this helps her hang in. It is probably good for those such as Bernie which criticise American foreign policy, if the issue gets particularly highlighted then him and Tulsi share a position with a lot more Democrat voters than the rest of the field, although haven't heard much on the others foreign policy I assume it is more of the same pretty much.
I probably wouldn't have Bernie as the favourite though, been convinced it is a Warren-Biden-Sanders fight for a while so he has as good a shot or close to as the other 2 front runners.
Labour are poo pooing the idea its legally binding and Flint was already on board since MV2. But it is looking promising for BoJo, depending how the Letwin issue is handled.
I would far rather take Trimble's support for the Boris Deal over Paisley's opposition.
It was David Trimble who did most of the hard work for the Good Friday Agreement while being trashed by Paisley Snr and the DUP for treachery before Paisley jumped into bed with McGuinness as soon as his party had overtaken Trimble's UUP and got a smell of power.
If the Brexit Party now want to jump into bed with the DUP they are welcome to
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Without doubt one of the most absurd sentences ever uttered on PB
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Without doubt one of the most absurd sentences ever uttered on PB
Worried about the competition?
(But yes it is absurd)
I have dibs on 'A jew in the Reichstag' for most painfully inappropriate phrase by a labourite about another labourite
I’m not one to argue with a trained lawyer but that’s not the case . The amendment takes out any approval . Once amended the government motion is not a MV4 .
I urge fellow posters to look at the amendment, it clearly removes that approval .
Indeed. That's why people on Twitter are saying Letwin isn't being truthful.
No doubt tommorow we will discover if BJ gets parliamentry approval for his deal, that, it was a vote of confidence in him all along! How will Labour MPs feel if they have sided not just with the Tories but a proven liar? I would not touch this deal with a barge poll...
These Labour MPs that are going to vote for the deal are probably going to save Labour seats at next GE. Far from being condemned they should be hailed as heroes!
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Without doubt one of the most absurd sentences ever uttered on PB but if you want to play that game I would also say to any Tory MP thinking of voting with Corbyn and his anti Semitic henchmen against the Brexit Deal tomorrow to think again
I don't much like Justin's constant ramping of Lab versus the LibDems, and shake my head in mute disbelief at his vote in the referendum. I despise Corbyn, Milne and Murray. I agree that perhaps this analogy was spectacularly badly judged.
But I know exactly what he means. And he's not wrong.
These Labour MPs that are going to vote for the deal are probably going to save Labour seats at next GE. Far from being condemned they should be hailed as heroes!
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Gawd. Why does everything have to be about Jews and Hitler with you lot?
Those Labour MPs voting for Johnson's Deal need to be told that what they propose to do is the equivalent to a Jew in the Reichstag voting for Hitler's Enabling Act in March 1933.
Gawd. Why does everything have to be about Jews and Hitler with you lot?
Comments
National Labour lead by the formidible Caroline Flint here we come?
When you were 5?
Have a nice sleep
Yours
The fool, coward and dick..
See you tomorrow for more Tory Swinson analysis.
Basing your actions off of MPs that represent a couple of % at most of the entire parliamentary party...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcF37brV0cQ
Have you not noticed the posters defending me aren't usually allies.
Perhaps you should ask why!
I'm just struggling to see how what you want could or would work under FPTP. Parties are broad churches and while some manifesto pledges are quite specific, others are much more general.
MPs are not just representatives of East Ham, Ilford South, Maidenhead or wherever - there is a wider remit under which they represent all of us through the decision making process and therefore speak for all of us.
Housing is a good example - we need more houses but MPs representing areas with an active anti-development community have to accept they may pay a political price for promoting something clearly in the national benefit.
The problem is MPs want to keep their jobs and be popular so they tend to speak to what's considered popular by polls and focus groups rather than what's right. That challenges the fundamental view as people understand democracy that if a majority chooses something that's the route we go.
It's not that I'm losing faith in democracy per se but I see its inadequacies all too clearly. Despite what's happened I think there's a role for more referenda at local level - I don't regard the fact that Newham is a one party state with 60 Labour Councillors as inherently desirable and I think PR at local level is hard to argue against.
Nationally it's tougher - to what extent are my interests as a Londoner similar to someone living in Devon or Durham? Yes we're all English but that doesn't make us all the same and governing us all in the same way seems misguided.
What. A. Prick.
If a deal does pass it is hard to see how that argument between the opposition parties was anything other than destructive, since if they had agreed upon anybody it would definitely have prevented this exit. Who would get the most blame?
I would suggest we ned to separate the Executive from Parliament and prevent ministerial positions being used as bargaining chips to secure loyalty. Votes in Parliament should be won on the strength of the argument not the bribing or blackmailing of MPs.
Reminds me of one of the Party leaders well actually about 4 of them
All females!!
So presumably I am not allowed to post about them.
https://www.ft.com/content/8518dfe6-f1be-11e9-ad1e-4367d8281195
Agreeing a policy with the rest of Europe isn't a bad thing - we don't have to be different or divergent with them just for the hell of it.
Your attitude to the EU isn't mine - as far as I'm concerned we leave in sorrow more than anger but if you prefer to be angry fine. There are other things in this world to be angry about and once we've left the EU you and the others who have spent years railing against Brussels can find something useful to be angry about.
How about modern slavery or the destruction of wildlife or pollution or levels of poverty or bad housing?
If, outside the EU, we can be a leading force fighting those battles both at home and abroad then leaving will have been fully justified.
Seriously, take a break
I'm a woman and I agree with you - Swinson is useless. I live in Scotland and have seen rather more of her 'abilities' over the years - she's fairly dim and barges headlong into unsustainable positions with no thought.
P.S. I also voted Remain
Tomorrow could have signalled victory was impossible for one side (or very difficult for the leave side if a referendum were tacked on), but we're not quite there. It does feel like the last stand of the Remainers this week, or like a Boxing match where leave is finishing stronger as we get into the final round, the knockout blow is almost there, but they are going to lose on points if they don't end it before the bell.
Pleasant dreams.
It just so happens LD/PC/CHUK/Green all currently are led by females. Which is totally irrelevant except a poster accuses me of bullying cowardice and being a "dick" for posting my views on one of them stating i am only doing it because she is female.
He is incorrect.
Remember, this is a Parliament which still has a Remain majority. But Johnson blew them out of the park.
https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1185267521647198208?s=21
An electric grid run on renewables is likely to work far better at the regional level - we have an embryonic form of it with the current inter-country interconnects.
And the ‘regions’ can be pretty large; for example, there are commercial plans in the offing for a marine cable to supply Singapore with solar power from Australia.
As far as the EU itself is concerned, how a major trading block which sets policies regulations ‘isn’t relevant’ seems... curious.
The government’s own estimates say as much.
I am a fool a bully and a Dick.
Your comments about KB were a complete disgrace, what were they again!!!
But just to clarify from earlier the leader of PC is an entirely forgettable man, not a woman...
#NeverTrustATory
As BJO said 4 Female leaders I assumed he meant party leaders which is why it would be Sturgeon and PC man (Adam Price I think) instead of the HoC leaders.
This might not even end up close
My head says Tulsi is already out though this will help attract attention, it could help Bernie maybe if she does go out soon or I guess hurt him if this helps her hang in. It is probably good for those such as Bernie which criticise American foreign policy, if the issue gets particularly highlighted then him and Tulsi share a position with a lot more Democrat voters than the rest of the field, although haven't heard much on the others foreign policy I assume it is more of the same pretty much.
I probably wouldn't have Bernie as the favourite though, been convinced it is a Warren-Biden-Sanders fight for a while so he has as good a shot or close to as the other 2 front runners.
It was David Trimble who did most of the hard work for the Good Friday Agreement while being trashed by Paisley Snr and the DUP for treachery before Paisley jumped into bed with McGuinness as soon as his party had overtaken Trimble's UUP and got a smell of power.
If the Brexit Party now want to jump into bed with the DUP they are welcome to
(But yes it is absurd)
Anyway goodnight all
Even I could vote for that.
But I know exactly what he means. And he's not wrong.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1185332233156124674?s=20
1) Letwin amendment
2) A series of indicative votes