Only skimmed the other thread as busy. But a crystal clear rubicon has been crossed IMO.
Johnson was judged to have mislead the Queen and unlawfully given advice which lead to the improper proroguing of parliament. Yes, he had legal opinion that he was ok to do so. But the superior court judged it the other way.
Jo Swinson made a short, calm and prescient point. Even her 5 year old son knows to say sorry when he's done wrong. Why doesn't the PM know to do this?
Later that afternoon she receives a DEATH THREAT against a 5 YEAR OLD CHILD. And still there are people finding a way to rationalise and argue that such behaviour is not the fault of the impotent inadequate idiotic man (because it almost certainly was) who did this. As isam said on the last thread on the subject of people objecting to this: "bollocks"
Something is very very broken in this country. The PM is openly stoking this fire so that more impotent angry cretins feel emboldened and indeed entitled to threaten a 5 year old child. That said cretins have already murdered one MP and would have murdered another had the police not stopped them doesn't seem to phase isam or Cleverly or any of these people happy to have the lives of women and children directly threatend because what they want hasn't happened.
David Starkey yesterday on LBC pointed out that in the past "People" vs "Parliament" led to war. We feel on the edge of that right now, where infants are apparently fair game. These "men" - and I rightly put it in quote marks because men do not threaten children and murder women because of politics - should be ashamed. But aren't, and won't be, because of political tactics by the Prime Minister.
I have a low opinion of Corbyn. But my resentment of Corbyn is nothing compared to my resentment of Johnson. And Cummings. And Banks. And Farage. And Dacre. How we restore basic human decency I do not know. Because isam and friends refuse to recognise that they are indecent.
If we'd Hard Brexited on 29th March, would this country be in a worse state now that it is? Not, at least, in a political sense.
Obviously you will think that, if you don't think leaving without a deal will have disastrous economic consequences.
But surely you're at least aware that other people think differently, and that's why they want to avoid leaving without a deal?
The basic problem is that however bad Johnson's ratings are, Corbyn's are worse.
Yup and no matter how appalling Boris is it is difficult to see that changing. Not indeed should it quite frankly. Even from Spain - where things are far from rosy right now des[ite what the self-obsessed British think - I am horrified at the idea of the UK being led by him and his ilk. Fortunately in my Lewisham East constituency a LD vote makes a lot of sense this time.
In my Stockton South constituency a LD vote makes not a lot of sense. Despite that and my very good personal relationship with the MP, I am still mulling over my joining the LibDems. I remain pretty clear that the Labour Party I joined is now a fringe group being quickly pushed away by the Stalinists who took control. I remain pretty clear that in hindsight my own political instincts had shifted a few years ago only to be suppressed to fit in. And I sense that a significant shift in attitudes is already underway and this is before we see the bigger ructions.
But why is it to "lance the boil" we capitulate to the Hard Brexit side? Hard Brexit / No Deal Brexit will be it's own disaster AND it won't be "the end" of Brexit. Indeed, No Deal Brexit is just a continuation of these talks, just from a position already outside the EU but considerably more fucked. The status quo is Remain. We could do that and leavers could try to craft a leave that is actually possible, and then we have a referendum on that.
Will it be a disaster? Is that a fact, or your opinion? The latter. And the argument starts again.
The status quo has gone. It went on the 23rd June 2016.
I mean, it is a fact we will need some deal with the EU. It is a fact, stated by the EU, that to get such a deal we would need to discuss Ireland, EU citizens rights and money to be paid into EU budget for prior commitments. It is a fact that leaving will change the nature of how goods, including food, come in and out of this country.
It is my conclusion, based on the evidence of this governments planning documents and the discussions on these issues by specialists (including my housemate who works at a medical site using radioactive material for cancer treatment) that in the case of No Deal, we are fucked.
The same planning documents that were a worst case scenario written to ensure plans are put in place to prevent any eventuality, with Brexit readiness significantly upped during the course of this year? The roll-on, roll-off points on both sides of the Channel are ready and the government will waive tariffs on 87% of imports, with transitory controls at customs alleviating paperwork and allowing extra time for it. There will be disruption, no doubt, but to say we would be 'fucked' feels like a bit of an exaggeration to me.
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
So if Tory conference doesn't get a recess, will the Opposition benches refuse to partner up and just try and take over the time table again, passing some pretty serious bills?
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
May I apologise to everyone for the language I used on the previous thread.
It's clear that my buttons are too easily pressed atm, so I'm going to cool my heels for a few days. I'll sip some wine and try to watch dispassionately as politics continues to implode.
Have fun, everyone.
And mods, as far as I'm concerned you can unban iSam. I'll just try not to have much to do with him in the future - as long as he doesn't criticise HS2 or say that pineapple doesn't belong on pizza.
Oh, and in a parting shot: not having a recess for the Conservative Party Conference is really poor form. I understand why people voted against it, but it looks awful. Besides, as I said earlier, the conference might not have played out quite to the Conservative's advantage ...
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
There are PB Tories not on PB?
Yes.
isam.
isam was in the Labour Party. Not sure what path he took since then but don't think he ever went Cons.
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
There are PB Tories not on PB?
Yes.
isam.
isam was in the Labour Party. Not sure what path he took since then but don't think he ever went Cons.
The basic problem is that however bad Johnson's ratings are, Corbyn's are worse.
Yup and no matter how appalling Boris is it is difficult to see that changing. Not indeed should it quite frankly. Even from Spain - where things are far from rosy right now des[ite what the self-obsessed British think - I am horrified at the idea of the UK being led by him and his ilk. Fortunately in my Lewisham East constituency a LD vote makes a lot of sense this time.
In my Stockton South constituency a LD vote makes not a lot of sense. Despite that and my very good personal relationship with the MP, I am still mulling over my joining the LibDems. I remain pretty clear that the Labour Party I joined is now a fringe group being quickly pushed away by the Stalinists who took control. I remain pretty clear that in hindsight my own political instincts had shifted a few years ago only to be suppressed to fit in. And I sense that a significant shift in attitudes is already underway and this is before we see the bigger ructions.
The LDs would benefit from having more people like you involved.
Thanks and well done, to all those who have made the difficult decisions to leave the Tory and Labour parties the last couple of years, it is a terrible national shame what has happened to them.
I don't quite get the geography of this. The Yes/NO lobbies are well separated and they wouldn't be in the same one. The entry doors to each lobby are open for the first 8 minutes of the vote (after which the Speaker says "Lock the doors!"), so I suppose Johnson could have been standing in the gap between the lobbies gesturing angrily into the lobby where Phillips was?
So if Tory conference doesn't get a recess, will the Opposition benches refuse to partner up and just try and take over the time table again, passing some pretty serious bills?
Or will they use it to just troll the Tories?
The latter. Come the second week in October I guarantee that we’ll be in the same situation we were in at the start of the prorogation fiasco.
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Yes, there is now a bigger swing from Labour to the Tories in London than the North if Yougov is correct since 2017 suggesting Kensington, Enfield Southgate, Croydon Central, Dagenham and Rainham, Eltham, even Ilford North and Brentford and Isleworth etc could all go blue
You are the only person I have come across who can type as he dreams. When you wake up you will realise it was all a wonderful fantasy, then it's back to reality!
Again, ignore the polling if you wish. But the evidence suggests it is you who is asleep.....
I very much believe the polling that at present suggests Johnson is on for a hatful of Labour seats and a very comfortable majority. I am somewhat sceptical of unlikely scenarios corroborated with sub-samples or selectively ignoring unhelpful polls to reach a particular conclusion.
May I apologise to everyone for the language I used on the previous thread.
It's clear that my buttons are too easily pressed atm, so I'm going to cool my heels for a few days. I'll sip some wine and try to watch dispassionately as politics continues to implode.
Have fun, everyone.
Best wishes. It's very easy to get caught up in arguments on the internet, and I've personally found it helpful to take some time away sometimes.
Seems a petty decision which will deprive the Manchester hospitality industry of a few quid.
Also opens the door for revenge next year.
Poor fare again from MPs.
Yes very petty especially considering the conference will still go ahead anyway.
It's just denying hotels and bars in Manchester extra revenue from reduced hospitality...
After unlawfully proroguing Parliament and following that up with yesterday's divisive and nasty performance what was the government expecting?
INot that I think that you are genuinely concerned at all about the lost revenue to Manchester hotels but I doubt it will be that great. The bulk of those intending to attend will continue to do so.
So if Tory conference doesn't get a recess, will the Opposition benches refuse to partner up and just try and take over the time table again, passing some pretty serious bills?
Or will they use it to just troll the Tories?
Why not just prorogue the Tory conference until after Brexit?
Knowing Johnson's luck he'd probably end up in court!
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
There are PB Tories not on PB?
Yes.
isam.
isam was in the Labour Party. Not sure what path he took since then but don't think he ever went Cons.
Blimey. That does surprise me.
His was a voice of WWC Labour concerned about immigration as I understood it but I won't speak on his behalf further.
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
There are PB Tories not on PB?
Yes.
isam.
isam was in the Labour Party. Not sure what path he took since then but don't think he ever went Cons.
I thought he was pretty clear on that, Kipperbang and 'Whither Nige goest, I will go', plus lashings of Enoch. He seems to have drunk deeply of the Borisaid, mind, though whether that counts as going Con nowadays..
Second like the Lib-Dems at the general election. Possibly.
GIN, you are off your rocker, bottom of the pile for those roasters
I'm not sure Malc.
I think Labour is in big, big trouble and they know it which explains for example Sheermans extraordinary outburst yesterday and why Jezza is so desperate not to have an election.
Con Lib-Dem Lab
Could be the finishing order in terms of vote shares though, probably not seats...
If it begins to look obvious that the Lib Dems will finish above Labour in vote share, then I think that will make it easier for moderate Conservatives to also vote Lib Dem, as they will not have to fear Corbyn.
I would suggest this would make it much more likely that the Lib Dems will finish first in vote share, rather than second.
I think that's optimistic for the Lib-Dems especially as Con will squeeze BXP down to single digits.
Labour third in vote share and possibly seats is looking possible now.
But why is it to "lance the boil" we capitulate to the Hard Brexit side? Hard Brexit / No Deal Brexit will be it's own disaster AND it won't be "the end" of Brexit. Indeed, No Deal Brexit is just a continuation of these talks, just from a position already outside the EU but considerably more fucked. The status quo is Remain. We could do that and leavers could try to craft a leave that is actually possible, and then we have a referendum on that.
Will it be a disaster? Is that a fact, or your opinion? The latter. And the argument starts again.
The status quo has gone. It went on the 23rd June 2016.
I mean, it is a fact we will need some deal with the EU. It is a fact, stated by the EU, that to get such a deal we would need to discuss Ireland, EU citizens rights and money to be paid into EU budget for prior commitments. It is a fact that leaving will change the nature of how goods, including food, come in and out of this country.
It is my conclusion, based on the evidence of this governments planning documents and the discussions on these issues by specialists (including my housemate who works at a medical site using radioactive material for cancer treatment) that in the case of No Deal, we are fucked.
The same planning documents that were a worst case scenario written to ensure plans are put in place to prevent any eventuality, with Brexit readiness significantly upped during the course of this year? The roll-on, roll-off points on both sides of the Channel are ready and the government will waive tariffs on 87% of imports, with transitory controls at customs alleviating paperwork and allowing extra time for it. There will be disruption, no doubt, but to say we would be 'fucked' feels like a bit of an exaggeration to me.
As I've said before, if only there were a way of the people who think it "feels like a bit of an exaggeration" of putting their money where their mouths are, and indemnifying the rest of us in the event they are wrong!
I don't quite get the geography of this. The Yes/NO lobbies are well separated and they wouldn't be in the same one. The entry doors to each lobby are open for the first 8 minutes of the vote (after which the Speaker says "Lock the doors!"), so I suppose Johnson could have been standing in the gap between the lobbies gesturing angrily into the lobby where Phillips was?
I presume Johnson and Phillips were outside the lobbies, and the group watching were in the lobby voting against the recess.
So if Tory conference doesn't get a recess, will the Opposition benches refuse to partner up and just try and take over the time table again, passing some pretty serious bills?
Or will they use it to just troll the Tories?
Why not just prorogue the Tory conference until after Brexit?
Knowing Johnson's luck he'd probably end up in court!
Why would the court object to a short prorogation?
May I apologise to everyone for the language I used on the previous thread.
It's clear that my buttons are too easily pressed atm, so I'm going to cool my heels for a few days. I'll sip some wine and try to watch dispassionately as politics continues to implode.
Have fun, everyone.
And mods, as far as I'm concerned you can unban iSam. I'll just try not to have much to do with him in the future - as long as he doesn't criticise HS2 or say that pineapple doesn't belong on pizza.
Oh, and in a parting shot: not having a recess for the Conservative Party Conference is really poor form. I understand why people voted against it, but it looks awful. Besides, as I said earlier, the conference might not have played out quite to the Conservative's advantage ...
OK - but we didn't even nearly finish on the utter utter scandal (!) of private schools. So TBC.
Voting down the Tory Conference recess is regretable but proportionate in the circumstances. The erosion of norms leaves us all poorer in the long run but a stand needs to be taken after yesterday's awful rhetoric and the progation fissco. Of course violating norms to protest the violtion of norms can becoming cyclical but we are where we are.
I don't quite get the geography of this. The Yes/NO lobbies are well separated and they wouldn't be in the same one. The entry doors to each lobby are open for the first 8 minutes of the vote (after which the Speaker says "Lock the doors!"), so I suppose Johnson could have been standing in the gap between the lobbies gesturing angrily into the lobby where Phillips was?
It's surely a bad thing for MPs to be 'personally challenging' other MPs. Thats why we have the house of commons, and suitable exchanges. We're not some rabble at the school gates.
I get tempers are high, but no ones helping the matter either way, and some people need to cool off.
Also David Gauke is proving to be a star. I met him briefly in 2010 when he was a junior in the Treasury, and I thought then he might go far. What a tragedy that the modern Conservative Party is no longer interested in sensible people like him.
Jess' speech is good ... but on the use of inflammatory language, can you remind me who said she wanted to "knife Corbyn in the front" ?
Virtually everyone - here and especially in parliament, has taken sides. There is not a hint of compromise anywhere. That is certainly a betrayal both of the majority in the referendum but also the minority. 52/48 requires a compromise version of Brexit - nothing more and nothing less. For those of us in the middle, in my case preferring remain but accepting the result it's all rather awful.
I like to put the boot into Leavers where possible because I think Brexit is the biggest numskull idea since Baldrick had a cunning plan, and I particularly dislike Bozo, so it is fun to rag his chief PB fan-boy HYUFD. However, like you, I would happily have a soft Brexit compromise. If the fan-boys and headbangers want something more full fat they ought to argue for another referendum to prove they have a mandate for it
I think that depends on if he is able to make the case that it is Parliament who are blocking things.
The populist narrative - "I want to Brexit but Remainer Quislings will not let me. Back me my People!" - might be tacky and reckless but it is powerful.
It tickles the ivories of millions who are only too prepared to have their ivories tickled. We even see it on here and this is a relatively enlightened and thoughtful place. Well it is. Relatively.
If Johnson gets his election soon after 31 Oct under an extension agreed either by him but clearly under duress, or by someone else, and if the anti-Tory and anti-Leave vote remains so badly split, I find it hard to envisage anything but a Conservative working majority, possibly quite a large one.
The tactical LAB/LD voting would need to be on a massive scale, and would need to operate seat by seat incredibly effectively, in order to prevent this. It's a big ask.
I agree, the 22-22 split reported by YouGov is both incredibly promising (as in combination it's yonks ahead of the Tories, and the Brexit Party vote seems disinclined to splinter) and incredibly dangerous (if distributed evenly it would deliver a huge Tory majority). There is lots of evidence that between a third and a half of the LD and Lab vote is willing to lend support to the other. What is needed is some really strong third party recommendations on who is best placed as an alternative to the Tories in each seat, taking account of polling movements, and a degree of informal restraint, with the third-party candidate not muddying the waters by claiming to be really the closer rival.
It's that last part that's difficult - few candidates can resist, and in many constituencies it will be genuinely unclear. Take Finchley & Golders Green - the Labour candidate can very reasonably say they're close behind the Tories and just one more heave, Berger can very reasonably say she's got a big head of steam from national publicity and demographic sympathy. Is it realistic to expect either of them to refrain from "Only we can stop the Tories" stuff?
And yet...people do tend to work these things out. I'd be nervous if I were the Tories counting on an evenly split opposition vote.
Tories have a 10% lead in the Midlands and a 14% lead in the South and are just 1% behind Labour in London and the North on this poll too and it also has the SNP on 35% and the Tories on 22% in Scotland too
What was the finishing Con/Lab margin in the Midlands in the 2017 GE?
EDIT and that Labour number suggests they are shedding votes in London to the LibDems.
Yougov today has the Labour vote collapsing in London from 54% in 2017 to just 29% now with the LD vote surging from just 8% in 2017 to 28% now.
The Tory vote is down but only fractionally from 33% to 28%
The Tories within 1% of Labour in London? That's surprising.
Some people are determined to analyse meaningless polling subsamples to an inch of their lives when they say things they like, then ignore entire polls like ComRes when they say things they don't like.
Only from the PB Tories.
Only on PB.
There are PB Tories not on PB?
Yes.
isam.
isam was in the Labour Party. Not sure what path he took since then but don't think he ever went Cons.
I thought he was pretty clear on that, Kipperbang and 'Whither Nige goest, I will go', plus lashings of Enoch. He seems to have drunk deeply of the Borisaid, mind, though whether that counts as going Con nowadays..
Boris's party is known as CINO, or the Brexit Party Lite
Lucy Powell votes against Tory recess :! Bryant, Hillier and Harman do too. Strange way to boost the Manc economy and get the speaker job.
The Manc economy will be just fine. As I've said, not many MPs attend these things unless they're speaking (and if they are, they just come for their slots and then push off).
I think that depends on if he is able to make the case that it is Parliament who are blocking things.
The populist narrative - "I want to Brexit but Remainer Quislings will not let me. Back me my People!" - might be tacky and reckless but it is powerful.
It tickles the ivories of millions who are only too prepared to have their ivories tickled. We even see it on here and this is a relatively enlightened and thoughtful place. Well it is. Relatively.
If Johnson gets his election soon after 31 Oct under an extension agreed either by him but clearly under duress, or by someone else, and if the anti-Tory and anti-Leave vote remains so badly split, I find it hard to envisage anything but a Conservative working majority, possibly quite a large one.
The tactical LAB/LD voting would need to be on a massive scale, and would need to operate seat by seat incredibly effectively, in order to prevent this. It's a big ask.
I agree, the 22-22 split reported by YouGov is both incredibly promising (as in combination it's yonks ahead of the Tories, and the Brexit Party vote seems disinclined to splinter) and incredibly dangerous (if distributed evenly it would deliver a huge Tory majority). There is lots of evidence that between a third and a half of the LD and Lab vote is willing to lend support to the other. What is needed is some really strong third party recommendations on who is best placed as an alternative to the Tories in each seat, taking account of polling movements, and a degree of informal restraint, with the third-party candidate not muddying the waters by claiming to be really the closer rival.
It's that last part that's difficult - few candidates can resist, and in many constituencies it will be genuinely unclear. Take Finchley & Golders Green - the Labour candidate can very reasonably say they're close behind the Tories and just one more heave, Berger can very reasonably say she's got a big head of steam from national publicity and demographic sympathy. Is it realistic to expect either of them to refrain from "Only we can stop the Tories" stuff?
And yet...people do tend to work these things out. I'd be nervous if I were the Tories counting on an evenly split opposition vote.
If the polls are right the muddying will come from second place Labour candidates who have no chance of winning, and are instead heading for third place, trying to use their second place against the LibDems who might have a chance of pulling off a win in the seat. There are plenty of Home Counties seats in this position.
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
Their " Registered Supporter " scheme ( which I sign up for 6 weeks ago ) is a useful taster. It precludes you from being a member of another party and confers no voting rights. But equally the responsibilities you sign up for don't exclude voting for or donating to other parties.
Congratulations and I am sure you will get a good welcome. If you are brave, put something on Twitter and/or LDV and I am sure some LibDems in your patch will make you welcome.
Most Labour people who join us say that it’s like arriving at the PB Forum after lifetime in the comments section of ConHome. Well, they don’t say that exactly, but something analogous.
Seems a petty decision which will deprive the Manchester hospitality industry of a few quid.
Also opens the door for revenge next year.
Poor fare again from MPs.
Perhaps the Tories should have considered this before closing down Parliament unilaterally for their own ends.
Up to a point Lady Copper - it was a chance for one side to be magnanimous on a supremely irrelevant issue, also a chance for the '21' to show their colours. We are where we are.
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
There " Registered Supporter " scheme ( which I sign up for 6 weeks ago ) is a useful taster. It precludes you from being a member of another party and confers no voting rights. But equally the responsibilities you sign up for don't exclude voting for or donating to other parties.
But it will duplicate your posts.
Is that tactical posting to make sure they are read?
Bercow confirmed a few minutes ago that the earliest an election can be held is 5th November.
This is the point I was making on here last night. Johnson has been saying he wants to leave with a deal on 31 Oct but also calling for an election in the meantime. It's literally impossible to have both.
‘I do think it was particularly tasteless for those grieving a mother, MP and friend to say the best way to honour her memory is to deliver the thing she and her family campaigned against. I think it was a very tasteless way of referring to the memory of a murdered MP, murdered by someone who said “Britain first”, of the far right tendency which you could argue is being whipped up by this sort of language.’
I disagree
Honouring someone doesn’t meaning doing what they wanted.
In this case it means creating a unified country and working towards a more level-set political environment
That means either Brexit or Revoke. Either will be cathartic and then the healing can begin
It’s the “extend and pretend” folks who are dishonouring Jo Cox’s memory
You don't get to say what does or does not honour or dishonour Jo Cox's memory.
Brendan Cox dealt with it in a dignified way. You should try it.
Also David Gauke is proving to be a star. I met him briefly in 2010 when he was a junior in the Treasury, and I thought then he might go far. What a tragedy that the modern Conservative Party is no longer interested in sensible people like him.
Jess' speech is good ... but on the use of inflammatory language, can you remind me who said she wanted to "knife Corbyn in the front" ?
Virtually everyone - here and especially in parliament, has taken sides. There is not a hint of compromise anywhere. That is certainly a betrayal both of the majority in the referendum but also the minority. 52/48 requires a compromise version of Brexit - nothing more and nothing less. For those of us in the middle, in my case preferring remain but accepting the result it's all rather awful.
I think that is somewhat unfair to.some posters on both sides on here. There are a number of committed Leavers who said from the start they thought a soft Brexit was necessary and fair. There are also plenty of Remainers on here who have said they would accept leaving with a deal both as a way to end the impass and as a point of principle. For all that I fight with him all the time, Topping is one of those who has argued for a soft Brexit as a matter of principle as well as pragmatism.
The Survation Scotland split is a perfect storm for the SNP:
- all four Unionist parties (Bxp, SCon, SLab and SLD) clustered in the teens
- the SNP above 40%
Even genius-level Unionist tactical voting is going to be worthless if that pattern holds until polling day. As the BritNats are more at caveman-level, things are looking bleak for Union Jack underpant wearers.
To be fair, I'm not surprised MPs are angry that Boris Johnson breathed out. The swine.
[This sort of thing annoys me. There's a bucketload of legitimate reasons to castigate the incompetent clown. Exhalation upon confrontation is not one of them].
May I apologise to everyone for the language I used on the previous thread.
It's clear that my buttons are too easily pressed atm, so I'm going to cool my heels for a few days. I'll sip some wine and try to watch dispassionately as politics continues to implode.
Have fun, everyone.
And mods, as far as I'm concerned you can unban iSam. I'll just try not to have much to do with him in the future - as long as he doesn't criticise HS2 or say that pineapple doesn't belong on pizza.
Oh, and in a parting shot: not having a recess for the Conservative Party Conference is really poor form. I understand why people voted against it, but it looks awful. Besides, as I said earlier, the conference might not have played out quite to the Conservative's advantage ...
I was critical of Boris Trump last night, but there was nothing wrong with that quote i.e he was willing to die in a ditch for Brexit. The fact that some nutter twisted in his note to Philips isn't his fault.
If we are going to go for this sort of stuff, Newsnight was talking of pulling the trigger on things....if that now verboten?
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
Become a registered supporter, it's a half-way house. That's what I did but I think I will be following RP shortly and become a member. If nothing else my conscience will be clear that I didn't lift a finger to enable a Corbyn or Johnson government.
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
Their " Registered Supporter " scheme ( which I sign up for 6 weeks ago ) is a useful taster. It precludes you from being a member of another party and confers no voting rights. But equally the responsibilities you sign up for don't exclude voting for or donating to other parties.
I considered that. And most of my political friends remain (extremely unhappy) members of the Labour Party. To quit didn't feel that bad - that I should go hit me like an epiphany in the middle of a CLP meeting having just given my report as the new CLP Treasurer.
To now join the LibDems feels odd. A bit like coming out. Had to happen eventually (and I nearly did in 2003). But still very new.
I was critical of Boris Trump last night, but there was nothing wrong with that quote i.e he was willing to die in a ditch for Brexit. The fact that some nutter twisted in his note to Philips isn't his fault.
If we are going to go for this sort of stuff, Newsnight was talking of pulling the trigger on things....if that now verboten?
In isolation there is nothing particularly wrong with it. A summer full of war memes, traitors, surrender, enemies of the people changes the context.
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
Their " Registered Supporter " scheme ( which I sign up for 6 weeks ago ) is a useful taster. It precludes you from being a member of another party and confers no voting rights. But equally the responsibilities you sign up for don't exclude voting for or donating to other parties.
I considered that. And most of my political friends remain (extremely unhappy) members of the Labour Party. To quit didn't feel that bad - that I should go hit me like an epiphany in the middle of a CLP meeting having just given my report as the new CLP Treasurer.
To now join the LibDems feels odd. A bit like coming out. Had to happen eventually (and I nearly did in 2003). But still very new.
We’re a friendly bunch, with none of the rancour and hatred you’ll have found within Labour. I hope you’ll be made welcome.
I see More United have launched their General Election Crowdfunder but on a massively increased scale from 2017. This time are hoping to endorse 200 candidates ( up from about 56 IIRC ) and have asked for £500k. It will be interesting to see how wide they csst their net. In 2017 they only endorsed one Tory Anna Soubry and no Nationalist candidates as they were pro Union. S8nce then they added a couple of Scottish Tory MPs and som.e Nats to their " MP network " so we'll see.
I won't link to the donation page but they are using Crowdfunder.
Also David Gauke is proving to be a star. I met him briefly in 2010 when he was a junior in the Treasury, and I thought then he might go far. What a tragedy that the modern Conservative Party is no longer interested in sensible people like him.
Jess' speech is good ... but on the use of inflammatory language, can you remind me who said she wanted to "knife Corbyn in the front" ?
Virtually everyone - here and especially in parliament, has taken sides. There is not a hint of compromise anywhere. That is certainly a betrayal both of the majority in the referendum but also the minority. 52/48 requires a compromise version of Brexit - nothing more and nothing less. For those of us in the middle, in my case preferring remain but accepting the result it's all rather awful.
I think that is somewhat unfair to.some posters on both sides on here. There are a number of committed Leavers who said from the start they thought a soft Brexit was necessary and fair. There are also plenty of Remainers on here who have said they would accept leaving with a deal both as a way to end the impass and as a point of principle. For all that I fight with him all the time, Topping is one of those who has argued for a soft Brexit as a matter of principle as well as pragmatism.
That is true. I think we both know where we stand on this and I hope there is some degree of respect. You f&&ker.
Well done. I am teetering, but I still have good friends in the Conservative Party so I think it might need to be a closet membership
Become a registered supporter, it's a half-way house. That's what I did but I think I will be following RP shortly and become a member. If nothing else my conscience will be clear that I didn't lift a finger to enable a Corbyn or Johnson government.
Also David Gauke is proving to be a star. I met him briefly in 2010 when he was a junior in the Treasury, and I thought then he might go far. What a tragedy that the modern Conservative Party is no longer interested in sensible people like him.
Jess' speech is good ... but on the use of inflammatory language, can you remind me who said she wanted to "knife Corbyn in the front" ?
Virtually everyone - here and especially in parliament, has taken sides. There is not a hint of compromise anywhere. That is certainly a betrayal both of the majority in the referendum but also the minority. 52/48 requires a compromise version of Brexit - nothing more and nothing less. For those of us in the middle, in my case preferring remain but accepting the result it's all rather awful.
I think that is somewhat unfair to.some posters on both sides on here. There are a number of committed Leavers who said from the start they thought a soft Brexit was necessary and fair. There are also plenty of Remainers on here who have said they would accept leaving with a deal both as a way to end the impass and as a point of principle. For all that I fight with him all the time, Topping is one of those who has argued for a soft Brexit as a matter of principle as well as pragmatism.
That is true. I think we both know where we stand on this and I hope there is some degree of respect. You f&&ker.
The problem here is the implication that the approach was aggressive by use of the word 'confronted'
If you 'confront' someone you won't always get the answer you want.
I am a huge fan of Jess Phillips and wish she was my MP, and hope one day she will be PM; and I 100% support MPs and others who get death threats from extremists of every sort; but actually I think she is wrong here. You cannot hold every politician accountable for the use of every hackneyed metaphor ' 'pulling the trigger', 'dead in a ditch' etc.
Comments
But surely you're at least aware that other people think differently, and that's why they want to avoid leaving without a deal?
Con 33%
Lab 22%
LD 22%
BRX 14%
Grn 6%
SNP 3%
isam.
Or will they use it to just troll the Tories?
It's clear that my buttons are too easily pressed atm, so I'm going to cool my heels for a few days. I'll sip some wine and try to watch dispassionately as politics continues to implode.
Have fun, everyone.
And mods, as far as I'm concerned you can unban iSam. I'll just try not to have much to do with him in the future - as long as he doesn't criticise HS2 or say that pineapple doesn't belong on pizza.
Oh, and in a parting shot: not having a recess for the Conservative Party Conference is really poor form. I understand why people voted against it, but it looks awful. Besides, as I said earlier, the conference might not have played out quite to the Conservative's advantage ...
DIVISION RESULT
Adjournment Motion (Conference Recess)
AYES 289
NOES 306
The NOES have it.
NOES Majority of 17.
Govt. loses another vote.
Thanks and well done, to all those who have made the difficult decisions to leave the Tory and Labour parties the last couple of years, it is a terrible national shame what has happened to them.
We need many more to follow your leads.
INot that I think that you are genuinely concerned at all about the lost revenue to Manchester hotels but I doubt it will be that great. The bulk of those intending to attend will continue to do so.
Knowing Johnson's luck he'd probably end up in court!
If Con can get 5% on BXP and Lib-Dems get 3% off Greens with SNP taking 1% off Con and Lab a result like this could be possible:
Con 37%
Lib-Dem 25%
Lab 21%
BXP 9%
Green 3%
SNP 5%
Would explain Labour being so desperate to avoid an election
I get tempers are high, but no ones helping the matter either way, and some people need to cool off.
Bryant, Hillier and Harman do too.
Strange way to boost the Manc economy and get the speaker job.
It's that last part that's difficult - few candidates can resist, and in many constituencies it will be genuinely unclear. Take Finchley & Golders Green - the Labour candidate can very reasonably say they're close behind the Tories and just one more heave, Berger can very reasonably say she's got a big head of steam from national publicity and demographic sympathy. Is it realistic to expect either of them to refrain from "Only we can stop the Tories" stuff?
And yet...people do tend to work these things out. I'd be nervous if I were the Tories counting on an evenly split opposition vote.
He declined.
If you 'confront' someone you won't always get the answer you want.
Congratulations and I am sure you will get a good welcome. If you are brave, put something on Twitter and/or LDV and I am sure some LibDems in your patch will make you welcome.
Most Labour people who join us say that it’s like arriving at the PB Forum after lifetime in the comments section of ConHome. Well, they don’t say that exactly, but something analogous.
Is that tactical posting to make sure they are read?
9 of the former 21 rebel Tories voted against the [recess]…
Guto Bebb
Nick Boles
Ken Clarke
David Gauke
Justine Greening
Dominic Grieve
Anne Milton
Amber Rudd
Antoinette Sandbach
Perhaps they would prefer to stay in the House rather than spend a few days in Manchester mingling with their own activists?
- all four Unionist parties (Bxp, SCon, SLab and SLD) clustered in the teens
- the SNP above 40%
Even genius-level Unionist tactical voting is going to be worthless if that pattern holds until polling day. As the BritNats are more at caveman-level, things are looking bleak for Union Jack underpant wearers.
[This sort of thing annoys me. There's a bucketload of legitimate reasons to castigate the incompetent clown. Exhalation upon confrontation is not one of them].
Now Rochdale has joined LDs surely its 22.01% LD 21.99% Lab!!
If we are going to go for this sort of stuff, Newsnight was talking of pulling the trigger on things....if that now verboten?
To now join the LibDems feels odd. A bit like coming out. Had to happen eventually (and I nearly did in 2003). But still very new.
Get on with sorting Brexit or call a GE if you have nothing to offer.
Missing a few drunken Tory MPs for a couple of days is going to make sod all difference to the Manchester economy. No Deal Brexit on the other hand...
Meanwhile, I have to go drive to Kentucky.
I won't link to the donation page but they are using Crowdfunder.
The shadow chancellor calling for a tory minister to be lynched, on the other hand...