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Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead0 -
Separation of powers exists in the UK as well, parliament makes laws and before making laws they check the impact of laws with other lawyers, it is the most unremarkable thing to get worked up about.dyedwoolie said:
Separation of powers is different in the States. But they wont be negotiating with Pelosii they will be discussing their respective positions, Pelosi has no authority to conclude a trade dealnoneoftheabove said:
What do you think the UK govt will be doing with Pelosi? They will be saying can we get x, y and z through congress in a trade deal.dyedwoolie said:
Well that's the point, its discussion on unofficial levels which are irrelevant versus negotiation and agreed actions. If the EU just want to know what the rebels position is thats fine, but they can't agree they will offer x y and z in return for the rebels ensuring the Benn Bill passes, for example.noneoftheabove said:
The EU have been discussing Brexit with all the parties since 2016. This is nothing new.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary
I would expect UK officials have regular discussions with Nancy Pelosi. It does not make Pelosi a traitor or the UK trying to collude against the US govt.0 -
And if they aren’t then they will be replaced at the next election.Gallowgate said:
The Commons are legislating pretty damn effectively in my opinion.Philip_Thompson said:
The Commons should do its job, or the executive should do its to bring this to a conclusion.Gallowgate said:
Well fine. The Commons has also voted convincingly to rule ‘No Deal’ illegal. What is your point?Philip_Thompson said:
The Commons had their chance to support it. The Commons rule it out and every other deal out.Gallowgate said:
Tell me how that shows the Commons would not support it now?Philip_Thompson said:
LMFAO! EEA/EFTA was called Common Market 2.0noneoftheabove said:
No it was not a free vote for payroll MPs.Philip_Thompson said:
Didn't May give a free vote? Who whipped against EEA/EFTA in the Commons and why didn't MPs break the whip if they cared so much?Gallowgate said:
Because the indicative votes where a sham. They were whipped.Philip_Thompson said:
How can you say that when EEA/EFTA was voted down in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:
EEA/EFTA would get through the Commons and be acceptable to a majority in the country.nunuone said:
There is no other deal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, so we need another deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, and yet MPs standing for parties opposed to no deal refused to support a deal on multiple occasions.
As you well know. Parliament voted agai8 the only deal 3 times, so now the only option left is no deal.
Brexit is tough. No Deal is no solution.
Labour MPs were whipped to support Common Market 2.0
Conservatives were given a free vote [except cabinet abstaining] on Common Market 2.0
Considering the opposition whipped to support it and the government gave a free vote, tell me again how the Commons supports it?0 -
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.0 -
Who.did he get itbfrom? The Fonz?Gallowgate said:The mother of all legal battles?
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1170328214612447234?s=210 -
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead0 -
A guarantee tonight . The Daily Telegraph will make sure it’s managed to bring out a poll showing the public love Bozo .0
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You’re comparing procedural shenanigans in Parliament (which are clearly supported by Parliament) to not giving royal assent to a bill that has passed both houses of Parliament with clear majorities?Gabs2 said:
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.0 -
'Victorious leave vote' - you do amuse so many on hereHYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
Oh, and what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority
Why not be honest and at least admit he has had a bad week0 -
I'm really tired of hearing this idiotic statement. The role of the Speaker is to represent the interests of Parliament and its members. He can conform to precedent or move forward as he interprets the will of the House.Gabs2 said:
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.0 -
Yes.Gallowgate said:
You’re comparing procedural shenanigans in Parliament (which are clearly supported by Parliament) to not giving royal assent to a bill that has passed both houses of Parliament with clear majorities?Gabs2 said:
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.0 -
@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
Loopy.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.Gallowgate said:
You’re comparing procedural shenanigans in Parliament (which are clearly supported by Parliament) to not giving royal assent to a bill that has passed both houses of Parliament with clear majorities?Gabs2 said:
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.0 -
But two can play at that game.Fenman said:
I'm really tired of hearing this idiotic statement. The role of the Speaker is to represent the interests of Parliament and its members. He can conform to precedent or move forward as he interprets the will of the House.Gabs2 said:
Sadly, we are well past this argument, after Bercow overturned several centuries of precedent in how standing orders are treated.prh47bridge said:
It has been a formality for three centuries. For over a century the monarchy has kept itself out of politics. If you really think our current Queen will change that I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.Philip_Thompson said:
That's not true. It was denied in 1707.prh47bridge said:
He can't. Royal assent is a formality. It is never denied. If Boris tried to drag the Queen into politics by asking her to refuse or delay assent to this bill he will, I am quite certain, be told where to go.Philip_Thompson said:Boris should deny royal assent to the bill since the opposition have refused an election or VONC.
Let the opposition VONC him if they want assent given.
Everything is a formality until it isn't.
The role of the speaker is to represent the interests of Parliament and its members.
The role of the monarch is to act on the advice of her ministers, as chosen and given confidence by Parliament.
If her ministers advise to refuse consent then why should the Queen not follow her minister's advise?0 -
The Queen can also change the PM if they refuse to obey Parliament.Philip_Thompson said:
Parliament can change the PM if its not happy with the veto.RobD said:Refusing royal assent would be outrageous. The Parliament has passed a law, you can't just ignore it because it is inconvenient.
I expect Boris would resign before extending and become Leader of the Opposition but the Queen could ask Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman to form a Government and dismiss Boris if it is clear he has lost the confidence of the Commons and refuses to leave office and implement extension and in such circumstances she may have no choice but to do so.0 -
Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=210 -
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
Dominic Cummings: the college years
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/dominic-cummings-loner-friend-now-running-country/
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The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
Yeah the rebel tories and libdems are not voting for Corbyn as PM, the only alternativeanothernick said:
VONC him and install a PM who will ask for the extension.nunuone said:Let's be honest here, if Boris refuses to ask for an extension under dubious interpertation of the no deal law, what exactly can Parliament do about it?
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Panelbase 31con 28lab 19ld 15bxp0
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I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
Given everything that's happened it would be ironic if we leave with No Deal after the courts grant permissionGallowgate said:The mother of all legal battles?
https://twitter.com/samcoatessky/status/1170328214612447234?s=210 -
Evening all
While we await the polls and the inevitable Conservative ratings of 40% or higher (apparently), where might we be going?
1) Boris Johnson seems in a trap to this observer. He cannot ask for another extension (I have a ditch if he needs one) from the EU as that will finish him politically. Yet he doesn't have the numbers for a GE so it seems he must either jump or be pushed via a VoNC.
2) Could an alternative Government with a limited mandate be formed? Perhaps but as none of the other parties can afford to be seen to empower Corbyn, the leader of that caretaker Government will be the one who has to ask the EU for an extension because the EU deals with the Government, not the Commons.
If Johnson cannot accept the will of Parliament, he has to step aside if someone else can command a majority.
3) The problem for the alternative Government is once extension has been achieved, what then? There may be a temptation to make it work - it would be fascinating to see such a n arrangement last until 2022. All those involved would have the common objectives of keeping out both Corbyn and Johnson (both of whom will have their own problems) and a pragmatic technocratic Government might not be the most unsuccessful or unpopular Government ever.
4) By 2022, 2016 will look a long way off and arguing the point will seem like fighting old battles especially if the new Government is somehow able to achieve a period of relative stability.
5) The truth though is once extension is achieved, it seems likely Labour will want an election but the Conservatives will still be angry and it's not easy to fight anger so it may be Johnson will be back after an election but will he stick to the agreed extension or simply walk out the week after he is elected?
All this because some people thought a referendum was an election and MPs were delegates rather than representatives.0 -
We’re all citizens of that ‘foreign power’.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
That is some turn roundGallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=210 -
So, close to 100 MPs did not vote, while others clearly preferred other options back then. I do not believe it would be tough to add another 60-70 votes to the Common Market 2.0 column given where we are now.Philip_Thompson said:
LMFAO! EEA/EFTA was called Common Market 2.0noneoftheabove said:
No it was not a free vote for payroll MPs.Philip_Thompson said:
Didn't May give a free vote? Who whipped against EEA/EFTA in the Commons and why didn't MPs break the whip if they cared so much?Gallowgate said:
Because the indicative votes where a sham. They were whipped.Philip_Thompson said:
How can you say that when EEA/EFTA was voted down in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:
EEA/EFTA would get through the Commons and be acceptable to a majority in the country.nunuone said:
There is no other deal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, so we need another deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, and yet MPs standing for parties opposed to no deal refused to support a deal on multiple occasions.
As you well know. Parliament voted agai8 the only deal 3 times, so now the only option left is no deal.
Brexit is tough. No Deal is no solution.
Labour MPs were whipped to support Common Market 2.0
Conservatives were given a free vote [except cabinet abstaining] on Common Market 2.0
Considering the opposition whipped to support it and the government gave a free vote, tell me again how the Commons supports it?
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Tories up 10% on May, Labour down 3%, LDs up 6%, Brexit Party down 4%.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=21
3% Tory lead as opposed to a 10% Labour lead in the last poll0 -
Con +10Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=21
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Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
They really aren't. They are good at saying what shouldn't be done, but have no clue as to what should be done.Gallowgate said:
The Commons are legislating pretty damn effectively in my opinion.Philip_Thompson said:
The Commons should do its job, or the executive should do its to bring this to a conclusion.Gallowgate said:
Well fine. The Commons has also voted convincingly to rule ‘No Deal’ illegal. What is your point?Philip_Thompson said:
The Commons had their chance to support it. The Commons rule it out and every other deal out.Gallowgate said:
Tell me how that shows the Commons would not support it now?Philip_Thompson said:
LMFAO! EEA/EFTA was called Common Market 2.0noneoftheabove said:
No it was not a free vote for payroll MPs.Philip_Thompson said:
Didn't May give a free vote? Who whipped against EEA/EFTA in the Commons and why didn't MPs break the whip if they cared so much?Gallowgate said:
Because the indicative votes where a sham. They were whipped.Philip_Thompson said:
How can you say that when EEA/EFTA was voted down in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:
EEA/EFTA would get through the Commons and be acceptable to a majority in the country.nunuone said:
There is no other deal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, so we need another deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, and yet MPs standing for parties opposed to no deal refused to support a deal on multiple occasions.
As you well know. Parliament voted agai8 the only deal 3 times, so now the only option left is no deal.
Brexit is tough. No Deal is no solution.
Labour MPs were whipped to support Common Market 2.0
Conservatives were given a free vote [except cabinet abstaining] on Common Market 2.0
Considering the opposition whipped to support it and the government gave a free vote, tell me again how the Commons supports it?0 -
Food for thought for Con Remainers - Boris adds 10 points..0
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The opposition is refusing to have an election because they're panicking that Boris would get a majority on Oct 15.Big_G_NorthWales said:
'Victorious leave vote' - you do amuse so many on hereHYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
Oh, and what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority
Why not be honest and at least admit he has had a bad week0 -
You going to take Battersea on those figures?HYUFD said:
Tories up 10% on May, Labour down 3%, LDs up 6%, Brexit Party down 4%Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=21
Con majority?0 -
Not by choice. Many of us consider their position little different to that of an occupying power.Gallowgate said:
We’re all citizens of that ‘foreign power’.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?0 -
Not sure what relevance that has.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not by choice. Many of us consider their position little different to that of an occupying power.Gallowgate said:
We’re all citizens of that ‘foreign power’.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.0 -
Which of the 27 foreign powers are we citizens of? France? Germany? Ireland? Belgium?Gallowgate said:
We’re all citizens of that ‘foreign power’.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
The anti-No Deal/pro-No Deal split in the same band as the other pollsters.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=21
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The EU.Philip_Thompson said:
Which of the 27 foreign powers are we citizens of? France? Germany? Ireland? Belgium?Gallowgate said:
We’re all citizens of that ‘foreign power’.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU is a foreign power for these purposes, the EU's constitution makes this clear. We are not a part of the 27.Fenman said:
The EU is not a foreign power. We are members.Stark_Dawning said:
Weren't they just checking that the EU would indeed grant an extension if one was requested? If anything they were being helpful to Boris - no point losing him his majority if No Deal was nailed on anyway. Boris and Cummings should be thanking them for injecting a bit of clarity and thoroughness.dyedwoolie said:
Tbf if there were secret talks between the EU and the rebels and action agreed to subvert the UK government's position then it is collusion with a foreign power. The government are the only people that can negotiate with the EU.Stark_Dawning said:
Yes, Rory's right. They're starting to sound scary.Scott_P said:
The language is of course deliberately provocative and not necessary0 -
Proving that the Tories' refusal to engage in exploring compromise options is why we are where we arePhilip_Thompson said:
LMFAO! EEA/EFTA was called Common Market 2.0noneoftheabove said:
No it was not a free vote for payroll MPs.Philip_Thompson said:
Didn't May give a free vote? Who whipped against EEA/EFTA in the Commons and why didn't MPs break the whip if they cared so much?Gallowgate said:
Because the indicative votes where a sham. They were whipped.Philip_Thompson said:
How can you say that when EEA/EFTA was voted down in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:
EEA/EFTA would get through the Commons and be acceptable to a majority in the country.nunuone said:
There is no other deal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, so we need another deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, and yet MPs standing for parties opposed to no deal refused to support a deal on multiple occasions.
As you well know. Parliament voted agai8 the only deal 3 times, so now the only option left is no deal.
Brexit is tough. No Deal is no solution.
Labour MPs were whipped to support Common Market 2.0
Conservatives were given a free vote [except cabinet abstaining] on Common Market 2.0
Considering the opposition whipped to support it and the government gave a free vote, tell me again how the Commons supports it?0 -
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it0 -
I agree entirely and have said so on many occassions.Philip_Thompson said:
The opposition is refusing to have an election because they're panicking that Boris would get a majority on Oct 15.Big_G_NorthWales said:
'Victorious leave vote' - you do amuse so many on hereHYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
Oh, and what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority
Why not be honest and at least admit he has had a bad week
But it does not change my comments to be fair0 -
How does the Palace get to Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman? Jeremy Corbyn is leader of the Opposition; if Boris falls under a bus, there will be whichever minister takes over from him. It will not be a random backbencher (or the bus driver: old joke).HYUFD said:
The Queen can also change the PM if they refuse to obey Parliament.Philip_Thompson said:
Parliament can change the PM if its not happy with the veto.RobD said:Refusing royal assent would be outrageous. The Parliament has passed a law, you can't just ignore it because it is inconvenient.
I expect Boris would resign before extending and become Leader of the Opposition but the Queen could ask Ken Clarke or Harriet Harman to form a Government and dismiss Boris if it is clear he has lost the confidence of the Commons and refuses to leave office and implement extension and in such circumstances she may have no choice but to do so.0 -
There is some significant churn there. Where is the +10 coming from? Some Labour and Brexit Party I guess but where else?SouthamObserver said:
The anti-No Deal/pro-No Deal split in the same band as the other pollsters.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=210 -
I'm saying the EU have no reason to compromise if they think the UK will give them what they want if they don't.Gallowgate said:
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.
Its like working for a bad employer who keeps you on minimum wage despite you being one of the biggest contributers for the employer - so you say "I think you should give me a pay rise but if you say no I 100% definitely won't quit".0 -
Ok so it was cabinet rather than payroll, but the point still applies, it wasnt a free vote and the indicative votes had mass abstentions. Ken Clarkes Custom Union failed by 3 votes, the May cabinet would have been in favour if allowed to vote.Philip_Thompson said:
LMFAO! EEA/EFTA was called Common Market 2.0noneoftheabove said:
No it was not a free vote for payroll MPs.Philip_Thompson said:
Didn't May give a free vote? Who whipped against EEA/EFTA in the Commons and why didn't MPs break the whip if they cared so much?Gallowgate said:
Because the indicative votes where a sham. They were whipped.Philip_Thompson said:
How can you say that when EEA/EFTA was voted down in the indicative votes?SouthamObserver said:
EEA/EFTA would get through the Commons and be acceptable to a majority in the country.nunuone said:
There is no other deal.SouthamObserver said:
Yep, so we need another deal.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Observer, and yet MPs standing for parties opposed to no deal refused to support a deal on multiple occasions.
As you well know. Parliament voted agai8 the only deal 3 times, so now the only option left is no deal.
Brexit is tough. No Deal is no solution.
Labour MPs were whipped to support Common Market 2.0
Conservatives were given a free vote [except cabinet abstaining] on Common Market 2.0
Considering the opposition whipped to support it and the government gave a free vote, tell me again how the Commons supports it?0 -
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it0 -
A disappointing opening for the pro-Johnson brigade suggesting the week's events have had no real impact. Con+BP 46% Lab+LD+Green 49%.GIN1138 said:
Con +10
It's also worth noting the Con and LD rises at 16% don't quite match the Lab/BP/Green declines at 10% so where were the other 6% and where have they come from?
https://opinionbee.uk/poll/4073/panelbase-sunday-times-14-21-may-2019-westminster-voting-intention
The previous Panelbase numbers from May so it seems probable both CUK and UKIP have disappeared into oblivion as their combined 7% vote share has collapsed to just 1%.
0 -
Sure it does. You said "what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority" - nothing has happened, the opposition are running scared of the election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I agree entirely and have said so on many occassions.Philip_Thompson said:
The opposition is refusing to have an election because they're panicking that Boris would get a majority on Oct 15.Big_G_NorthWales said:
'Victorious leave vote' - you do amuse so many on hereHYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
Oh, and what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority
Why not be honest and at least admit he has had a bad week
But it does not change my comments to be fair
I don't see how Boris has had a bad week. I think the opposition have walked into his trap.0 -
So you quit and suddenly you can’t pay your mortgage however the employer continues just as they did before with a little inconvenience.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying the EU have no reason to compromise if they think the UK will give them what they want if they don't.Gallowgate said:
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.
Its like working for a bad employer who keeps you on minimum wage despite you being one of the biggest contributers for the employer - so you say "I think you should give me a pay rise but if you say no I 100% definitely won't quit".0 -
That occured to meGallowgate said:
There is some significant churn there. Where is the +10 coming from? Some Labour and Brexit Party I guess but where else?SouthamObserver said:
The anti-No Deal/pro-No Deal split in the same band as the other pollsters.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=210 -
Thank you for making my point. This is why Boris can't negotiate with the EU.Gallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it0 -
No. All this because MPs forgot they were delegated to represent their constituents and not their own personal wishes and desires.stodge said:Evening all
While we await the polls and the inevitable Conservative ratings of 40% or higher (apparently), where might we be going?
1) Boris Johnson seems in a trap to this observer. He cannot ask for another extension (I have a ditch if he needs one) from the EU as that will finish him politically. Yet he doesn't have the numbers for a GE so it seems he must either jump or be pushed via a VoNC.
2) Could an alternative Government with a limited mandate be formed? Perhaps but as none of the other parties can afford to be seen to empower Corbyn, the leader of that caretaker Government will be the one who has to ask the EU for an extension because the EU deals with the Government, not the Commons.
If Johnson cannot accept the will of Parliament, he has to step aside if someone else can command a majority.
3) The problem for the alternative Government is once extension has been achieved, what then? There may be a temptation to make it work - it would be fascinating to see such a n arrangement last until 2022. All those involved would have the common objectives of keeping out both Corbyn and Johnson (both of whom will have their own problems) and a pragmatic technocratic Government might not be the most unsuccessful or unpopular Government ever.
4) By 2022, 2016 will look a long way off and arguing the point will seem like fighting old battles especially if the new Government is somehow able to achieve a period of relative stability.
5) The truth though is once extension is achieved, it seems likely Labour will want an election but the Conservatives will still be angry and it's not easy to fight anger so it may be Johnson will be back after an election but will he stick to the agreed extension or simply walk out the week after he is elected?
All this because some people thought a referendum was an election and MPs were delegates rather than representatives.
I know you all love to quote Burke on this as if he is some sort of prophet but it is worth remembering that Burke's actions based on his own philosophy ruined the businesses and lives of many of those he represented and led to him being thrown out of office 2 years later.
In the end you can make all these claims about 'delegates' rather than 'representatives' but most of the time it is just a smoke screen for MPs doing what they want and sod their constituents.0 -
If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.0
-
So be it.Gallowgate said:
So you quit and suddenly you can’t pay your mortgage however the employer continues just as they did before with a little inconvenience.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying the EU have no reason to compromise if they think the UK will give them what they want if they don't.Gallowgate said:
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.
Its like working for a bad employer who keeps you on minimum wage despite you being one of the biggest contributers for the employer - so you say "I think you should give me a pay rise but if you say no I 100% definitely won't quit".
And if you work hard, you will find a new employer [or could even start your own business] - whereas a bad employer who loses all their good employees won't be competitive for long.0 -
Are the changes wrt to May (the month) or May (the PM)?SouthamObserver said:
The anti-No Deal/pro-No Deal split in the same band as the other pollsters.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=210 -
You do realise negotiations can still happen without the ultimate leverage?Philip_Thompson said:
Thank you for making my point. This is why Boris can't negotiate with the EU.Gallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it
Going back to your employment analogy, you would never threaten to leave an employer if you want a good outcome. They would just tell you to f*ck off.
You would propose a pay increase and give reasons why and they might offer something slightly less than you proposed.
You must lead a very sad life if you think every negotiation must be done with a gun to the head.0 -
Be amusing if Corbyn reads these polls and thinks "I'd like a vote now afterall".SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
0 -
Not giving into blackmail does not a bad employer make.Philip_Thompson said:
So be it.Gallowgate said:
So you quit and suddenly you can’t pay your mortgage however the employer continues just as they did before with a little inconvenience.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying the EU have no reason to compromise if they think the UK will give them what they want if they don't.Gallowgate said:
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.
Its like working for a bad employer who keeps you on minimum wage despite you being one of the biggest contributers for the employer - so you say "I think you should give me a pay rise but if you say no I 100% definitely won't quit".
And if you work hard, you will find a new employer [or could even start your own business] - whereas a bad employer who loses all their good employees won't be competitive for long.0 -
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example yet even Panelbase has Labour losing 8 seats more than the Tories.
It is Corbyn in more trouble than Boris albeit Swinson has most to cheer for now.
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=200 -
0
-
The nation is going down the rabbit hole. And 31% is no basis for going to the country confidently.0
-
If the EU ignores a Commons majority for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop then Boris rightly goes into Opposition on a No Deal platform until they change their mindGallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it0 -
What is going to happen to that majority if a few of the heroic 21 retain their seats?HYUFD said:
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=200 -
Actually as both an employee and as an employer I've had discussions escalate to the point where a threat to leave was made. As an employee when I threatened to the first time I got what I wanted, when I did the second time I was told "OK thanks for all your help".Gallowgate said:You do realise negotiations can still happen without the ultimate leverage?
Going back to your employment analogy, you would never threaten to leave an employer if you want a good outcome. They would just tell you to f*ck off.
You would propose a pay increase and give reasons why and they might offer something slightly less than you proposed.
You must lead a very sad life if you think every negotiation must be done with a gun to the head.
As an employer I've done the same thing. I've had people threaten to leave and I've felt no choice but to give them what they wanted, I've also had people threaten to leave and I've said 'goodbye'. It happens.
I don't feel every negotiation has to have a gun to the head but I have always felt that you should never metaphorically put a gun to the head if you're not prepared to pull the trigger. To do so and not pull the trigger leaves you impotent.0 -
SNP +1? Nope. Doubt that.HYUFD said:
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=200 -
It is all bollox so they can control the plebs, rotten to the core.RobD said:
I dunno about you, but I quite like conventions, it's part of what being a Tory is all about.GIN1138 said:
It would be... But we've long gone past the point where Parliamentary conventions actually count for anything.RobD said:Refusing royal assent would be outrageous. The Parliament has passed a law, you can't just ignore it because it is inconvenient.
0 -
They have already rejected the WA minus the backstop.HYUFD said:
If the EU ignores a Commons majority for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop then Boris rightly goes into Opposition on a No Deal platform until they change their mindGallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it
This is like smashing your head against the wall repeatedly and expecting it to not hurt the 3rd time.0 -
The analogy started with "Its like working for a bad employer ..."Gallowgate said:
Not giving into blackmail does not a bad employer make.Philip_Thompson said:
So be it.Gallowgate said:
So you quit and suddenly you can’t pay your mortgage however the employer continues just as they did before with a little inconvenience.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm saying the EU have no reason to compromise if they think the UK will give them what they want if they don't.Gallowgate said:
You’re saying that the EU *wont* compromise unless they think the UK will so Boris cant even be bothered to try.Philip_Thompson said:
As far as the EU are concerned, not as far as Britain is concerned.Gallowgate said:
Clearly you don’t. All I’m hearing is “can’t” and “wont”Philip_Thompson said:
I do believe in Britain. I want our MPs to believe in Britain too.Gallowgate said:
You should believe in Britain instead of talking us down.Philip_Thompson said:
Because the EU won't compromise if they think the UK will.Gallowgate said:@HYUFD why isn’t BoZo *already* trying to get the EU to agree to a technical solution for the Irish border instead of parading around the country pretending he’s on an election campaign?
Maybe he should do his job instead of lecturing MPs about doing theres?
He should do his job the lazy good for nothing.
Its like working for a bad employer who keeps you on minimum wage despite you being one of the biggest contributers for the employer - so you say "I think you should give me a pay rise but if you say no I 100% definitely won't quit".
And if you work hard, you will find a new employer [or could even start your own business] - whereas a bad employer who loses all their good employees won't be competitive for long.0 -
Thank you for proving my point.Philip_Thompson said:
Actually as both an employee and as an employer I've had discussions escalate to the point where a threat to leave was made. As an employee when I threatened to the first time I got what I wanted, when I did the second time I was told "OK thanks for all your help".Gallowgate said:You do realise negotiations can still happen without the ultimate leverage?
Going back to your employment analogy, you would never threaten to leave an employer if you want a good outcome. They would just tell you to f*ck off.
You would propose a pay increase and give reasons why and they might offer something slightly less than you proposed.
You must lead a very sad life if you think every negotiation must be done with a gun to the head.
As an employer I've done the same thing. I've had people threaten to leave and I've felt no choice but to give them what they wanted, I've also had people threaten to leave and I've said 'goodbye'. It happens.
I don't feel every negotiation has to have a gun to the head but I have always felt that you should never metaphorically put a gun to the head if you're not prepared to pull the trigger. To do so and not pull the trigger leaves you impotent.0 -
One net gain for the SNP strongly suggests Electoral Calculus is predicting Tory gains in Scotland. Hmmm.HYUFD said:
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=20
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Smith is in ridiculous form. Reminds me of Gooch in the 1990s.0
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What point?Gallowgate said:
Thank you for proving my point.Philip_Thompson said:
Actually as both an employee and as an employer I've had discussions escalate to the point where a threat to leave was made. As an employee when I threatened to the first time I got what I wanted, when I did the second time I was told "OK thanks for all your help".Gallowgate said:You do realise negotiations can still happen without the ultimate leverage?
Going back to your employment analogy, you would never threaten to leave an employer if you want a good outcome. They would just tell you to f*ck off.
You would propose a pay increase and give reasons why and they might offer something slightly less than you proposed.
You must lead a very sad life if you think every negotiation must be done with a gun to the head.
As an employer I've done the same thing. I've had people threaten to leave and I've felt no choice but to give them what they wanted, I've also had people threaten to leave and I've said 'goodbye'. It happens.
I don't feel every negotiation has to have a gun to the head but I have always felt that you should never metaphorically put a gun to the head if you're not prepared to pull the trigger. To do so and not pull the trigger leaves you impotent.
Making the threat to leave [and meaning it] changes things. Taking that off the table leaves you relatively impotent.0 -
Yeah ignore the Scottish results it's got con gain Lanark and Hamilton.SouthamObserver said:
One net gain for the SNP strongly suggests Electoral Calculus is predicting Tory gains in Scotland. Hmmm.HYUFD said:
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=20
Take 10 off the blue seat total0 -
Quick question....what if PM resigns at the very last minute when the letter is due to be signed/delivered and there’s no time to find anyone else to sign/deliver?0
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That is the problem when you become too tribal. Boris has had a dreadful week with the ill thought out rambling speech in front of the police and his brother walking out on him. He does not inspire confidence and is in a big messPhilip_Thompson said:
Sure it does. You said "what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority" - nothing has happened, the opposition are running scared of the election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I agree entirely and have said so on many occassions.Philip_Thompson said:
The opposition is refusing to have an election because they're panicking that Boris would get a majority on Oct 15.Big_G_NorthWales said:
'Victorious leave vote' - you do amuse so many on hereHYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
Oh, and what happened to Boris 'nailed on' majority
Why not be honest and at least admit he has had a bad week
But it does not change my comments to be fair
I don't see how Boris has had a bad week. I think the opposition have walked into his trap.
Now, whether this is bad for him, and many on here attack him from their own tribal standpoint, time will tell. I do think the only way he can dig himself out of this is by some agreement with Farage to fight the remainers together, as brexit is seriously threatened
He does run the risk of losing more moderate conservatives like me but what must be remembered, as bad as Boris is, I would never vote to enable a Corbyn government0 -
The month. PanelBase don’t do many UK-wide polls, I don’t think.Jonathan said:
Are the changes wrt to May (the month) or May (the PM)?SouthamObserver said:
The anti-No Deal/pro-No Deal split in the same band as the other pollsters.Gallowgate said:Changes with May.
Only a 3 point lead over Labour. Oosh.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1170373770487500800?s=21
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They rejected it when rejecting it means we remain with an extension.Gallowgate said:
They have already rejected the WA minus the backstop.HYUFD said:
If the EU ignores a Commons majority for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop then Boris rightly goes into Opposition on a No Deal platform until they change their mindGallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it
This is like smashing your head against the wall repeatedly and expecting it to not hurt the 3rd time.
They never rejected it when rejecting it means we leave and they have an immediate hard border.0 -
Not if he is going to lose at least 21 Labour seats as Panelbase predictsPhilip_Thompson said:
Be amusing if Corbyn reads these polls and thinks "I'd like a vote now afterall".SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
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Problem with seat calculators are they assume the Brexit party will stand in every seats - that’s far from a given.0
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Opinium is out..0
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The Tories and Brexit Party ought to make a pact since they're on about 46% combined. But they probably won't since Cummings apparently can't stand Farage.0
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It also ignores the Labour losses in Scotland to the SNP too thoughSouthamObserver said:
One net gain for the SNP strongly suggests Electoral Calculus is predicting Tory gains in Scotland. Hmmm.HYUFD said:
No he isn't, Tories plus DUP have a majority with Survation and even with Panelbase the Tories would still comfortably be largest party.SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
However both pollsters tend to have higher Labour voteshare and lower LD voteshares than Yougov or Ipsos Mori for example
https://twitter.com/Adam_IoM/status/1170374866056417280?s=200 -
Lol its hilariousArtist said:Opinium is out..
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Boris needs that Brwxiy Party share to be below 12ish %SouthamObserver said:If other weekend polls are similar to the Panelbase and Survation ones, Johnson is in deep, deep trouble. Big if, though.
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And the Commons has already rejected the WA with the backstop 3 timesGallowgate said:
They have already rejected the WA minus the backstop.HYUFD said:
If the EU ignores a Commons majority for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop then Boris rightly goes into Opposition on a No Deal platform until they change their mindGallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it
This is like smashing your head against the wall repeatedly and expecting it to not hurt the 3rd time.0 -
10% Tory lead in Opinium0
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The one dreadful element you mentioned I agree with was his brother walking out. He made a foolish mistake offering his brother a job given his brother was an extreme remainer, one of the few to leave May's cabinet on the remain side of the fence. Silly mistake that came back to bite him.Big_G_NorthWales said:That is the problem when you become too tribal. Boris has had a dreadful week with the ill thought out rambling speech in front of the police and his brother walking out on him. He does not inspire confidence and is in a big mess
Now, whether this is bad for him, and many on here attack him from their own tribal standpoint, time will tell. I do think the only way he can dig himself out of this is by some agreement with Farage to fight the remainers together, as brexit is seriously threatened
He does run the risk of losing more moderate conservatives like me but what must be remembered, as bad as Boris is, I would never vote to enable a Corbyn government0 -
FWIW I think the LDs might be persuaded to swallow their objections to Corbyn in return for a commitment that a GONU will legislate for a second referendum. We are not there yet but things could move very fast if Johnson threatens not to obey the law. A week ago nobody would have expected the opposition parties to have shown the unity and coherence that have enabled them take control of the parliamentary agenda as they have done.nunuone said:
Yeah the rebel tories and libdems are not voting for Corbyn as PM, the only alternativeanothernick said:
VONC him and install a PM who will ask for the extension.nunuone said:Let's be honest here, if Boris refuses to ask for an extension under dubious interpertation of the no deal law, what exactly can Parliament do about it?
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and?HYUFD said:
And the Commons has already rejected the WA with the backstop 3 timesGallowgate said:
They have already rejected the WA minus the backstop.HYUFD said:
If the EU ignores a Commons majority for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop then Boris rightly goes into Opposition on a No Deal platform until they change their mindGallowgate said:
No he can’t because “leave it” has been made illegal. The EU will quite rightly simply ignore him.HYUFD said:
The Commons could vote for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstopGallowgate said:
How’s that going to work when the bill says that the extension must be requested by the 19th October unless Parliament votes for no deal or a new Brexit deal?HYUFD said:Given the current Parliament clearly has no interest in respecting the victorious Leave vote of 2016 I can certainly understand Boris in his determination to stand his ground and refuse to extend even if defying an Act of Parliament to do so.
However assuming the anti No Deal Bill gets Royal Assent next week rather than disobey the law Boris should shift course to try and get the EU to agree a technical solution for the Irish border as an alternative to the backstop in the EU Council of October 17th and then get an amended Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons (which the Brady amendment suggested it would).
If the EU does not agree to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement then Boris should resign as PM by October 31st and take the Tories into opposition on a No Deal platform until the backstop is removed and let the Commons elect someone else as PM to extend. If they have not done so by the 31st as Lord Sumption, a Supreme Court judge said today a civil servant can sign the extension on behalf of the Government instead
a day or two before and Boris can tell the EU to either take it and his technical solution for the Irish border or leave it
This is like smashing your head against the wall repeatedly and expecting it to not hurt the 3rd time.0 -
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/07/tories-extend-lead-over-labour-to-10-despite-chaotic-week
This will please the Cummings...0 -
SMITH OUT!0
