politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A closer look at one of tonight’s local council by elections

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

Jesmondo in Downing St then?

No, Boris will stay in No 10 unless he loses a VONC and Swinson would of course veto a Corbyn premiership

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

Beibheirli_C said:

My other half just signed up as a Lib Dem member!

A few minutes ago I donated the national Liberal Democrats for the first time in 7 + years. I
think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

If he had 17m voters behind him he would be doing significantly better in those polls you so love

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

There are 68 million people in this country not 17 million. The Tories appear to have forgotten that.

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

Jesus...

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

Well, that would be him out of office

Government of National Unity back on?

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

Well, that would be him out of office

It would not unless he loses a VONC

Is it possible Boris has a bet that Corbyn will be PM, however temporarily? He just wants to ensure the man takes over as a caretaker before he then returns to No.10 after an election.

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

Of course not, although many people do present it as a moral issue, of delivering on promises and keeping their word, not merely a political fundamental.

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

HYUFD said:

nico67 said:

Mexicanpete said:

DougSeal said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly

If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?

Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.

Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.

Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .

ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his

What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?

No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays

Er, he’d be breaking the law.

Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.

He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

If it might be immoral....yes that says it all the man is demented

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers? Comparing this to an obviously morally wrong scenario is absurd.

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I am a ooffice

If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative

Indeed,

+1

-1

True .

them.

The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.

I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.

.

N

Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.

I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.

But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.

Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.

That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.

Nigelb said:

Carnyx said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1169653831401136128

Did you see who replied to that tweet?

Indeed. Our very own HYUFD says "He is the UK PM and as they are state employees ultimately their boss..."

...and therefore fair game as party political props.

He's wrong. Their ultimate boss is the Queen. Other than that it's the Home Secretary. PM is not the President.

How does anyone reckon the conversation goes in Johnson’s weekly meetings with the Queen?

El_Capitano said:

Gabs2 said:

HYUFD said:

TGOHF said:

https://twitter.com/10downingstreet/status/1169654291616980992?s=21

Bibi no doubt offering him advice on how he keeps winning elections despite being loathed by the liberal left

I just realised that TGOHF and HYUFD are different people.

One stands for The Ghost Of Harry Flashman, the other for Have You Used Fallacious Data.

TGOHF is an earnestly right wing fellow.
HYUFD is an unstable form of matter that sublimes between turbulent jackbootery and outrageous and genuinely funny self parody without ever being seen in any intermediate state.

HYUFD is the more interesting of the two, in that he could easily be two quite different people posting on the same account.

TGOFH, in common with a majority of us, tends to provide more heat than light, but HYUFD is in another league, making the room darker, like some dismal, unfillable pit. Or a black hole sucking life from the firmament.

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

kle4 said:

Beibheirli_C said:

My other half just signed up as a Lib Dem member!

Between them Brexit and Corbyn have done wonders for the party memberships of all the big 3 UK parties, they should be very grateful. Granted it is low compared to the glory days, but its definitely an uptick for them compared to recent trends.

It does indeed

alex. said:

How does anyone reckon the conversation goes in Johnson’s weekly meetings with the Queen?

Her Majesty tells him ‘I miss that nice Mr Cameron’

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1169681044573962240?s=21

alex. said:

How does anyone reckon the conversation goes in Johnson’s weekly meetings with the Queen?

Brenda - "I see you have some family problems"

Boris - "I see you have some family problems"

Brenda - "See you next Tuesday"

Boris - "If I don't make it send for Jezza .... only kidding ....

Ishmael_Z said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

alex. said:

How does anyone reckon the conversation goes in Johnson’s weekly meetings with the Queen?

Her Majesty tells him ‘I miss that nice Mr Cameron’

Does she purr this?

Yes.

Actually to be fair to Boris the Queen does thank Boris on a regular basis.

‘Dear Prime Minister, thank you for keeping my nonce befriending son off the front pages’

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1169681044573962240?s=21

He looks ill.

HYUFD said:

viewcode said:

Nigelb said:

Carnyx said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/lizziedearden/status/1169653831401136128

Did you see who replied to that tweet?

Indeed. Our very own HYUFD says "He is the UK PM and as they are state employees ultimately their boss..."

...and therefore fair game as party political props.

He's wrong. Their ultimate boss is the Queen. Other than that it's the Home Secretary. PM is not the President.

The Home Secretary answers to the PM and the Queen acts on her PM's advice

Your grasp of the law, in particular the legal responsibilities of the office of a constable, is shaky.

kle4 said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member

I doubt that very much.

HYUFD said:

Jonathan said:

AlastairMeeks said:

dyedwoolie said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

.

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

https://twitter.com/DannyShawBBC/status/1169655415191330823?s=20

The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.

Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.

Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.

There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis

Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.

Boris treated May poorly, plotted, undermined her and killed her premiership.

This is karma.

No, that was Corbyn and diehard Remainers mainly, Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.

What actually is happening is Boris is building a Tory lead May lost ready to finally deliver the Leave vote the diehard Remainers in Parliament have refused to respect

Absolutely laughable interpretation of history - even you can genuinely be keeping a straight face whilst writing it. Johnson voted for the WA when everyone knew it was effectively dead and after May's leadership was destroyed. After he had done as much as anyone to destroy it and make it impossible for opposition parties to back it. Resigning from the Cabinet over it, speaking implacably against it in the House of Commons, and writing non stop about how terrible it was on a weekly basis in the Daily Telegraph. He was as responsible as anyone for the extension in March, and the subsequently polling collapse.

If anything the fact that he did finally vote for it only makes his actions worse - in demonstrating that he did everything out of personal ambition and not personal conviction

Is it sustainable to argue that “voters should decide what happens next” without ending up with a second referendum?

Gallowgate said:

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.

AlastairMeeks said:

Gallowgate said:

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.

Nothing personal Alastair!

**Incoming**

Well, this is, erm, courageous in the current climate (and all the more commendable for it).

If anyone’s looking after JRM, they’d be well-advised to staple his gob on this for a few days.

https://twitter.com/CMO_England/status/1169673321522388995?s=20

AlastairMeeks said:

Gallowgate said:

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.

Just wait for a Corbyn premiership, we might experience it firsthand with all private property taken over by the State!

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?

FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?

No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.

What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.

What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law

Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.

Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I am a ooffice

If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative

Indeed,

+1

-1

True .

them.

The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.

I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.

.

N

Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.

I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.

But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.

Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.

That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.

There was no hissy fit. That’s in your mind.

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.

@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.

I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?

I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member and campaign for the opposition to get my property restored at the next GE

Have you ever heard of the concept of inalienable rights? Those are the rights that the American colonists felt the British Government has breached in imposing taxes without consent, in a manner that was probably legislatively in order. The rights that the Jews in Germany had taken away from them by the actions of the then government from 1933 onwards? At what point would you feel that an elected government had gone too far and you had the right to rebel, even if the majority opposed you?

Ok, it's approaching midnight on Oct 19, Boris is still PM but he has not requested the extension as the Benn bill requires.

What _exactly_ happens?

alex. said:

Since when was UK democracy defined by politicians having majority support?

I guess it doesn’t matter that Blair lied about Iraq cos 54%.

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?

FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?

No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.

What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.

What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law

Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.

Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law

Really? So you feel the Nuremberg Trials were not legitimate? That the American Colonists had no right to revolt? That the Tienamen Square protestors had it coming?

HYUFD said:

A few minutes ago I donated the national Liberal Democrats for the first time in 7 + years. I
think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.

Perhaps those WW1 analogies are correct after all.

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.

@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.

I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)

He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.

No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive and the majority of voters against the legislature

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.

@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.

I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)

He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.

No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive against the legislature

I think you need to bring your passionately Brexiter hot-air balloon a little closer back down to earth, Mr HYUFD.

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

DougSeal said:

HYUFD said:

Beibheirli_C said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes

So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?

FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?

No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.

What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.

What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law

Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.

Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law

Really? So you feel the Nuremberg Trials were not legitimate? That the American Colonists had no right to revolt? That the Tienamen Square protestors had it coming?

Under the laws of the lands at the time those were illegal acts yes but of course certainly in the latter 2 cases it was authoritarian regimes defying the people much as the current Parliament is defying the will of the people as expressed in 2016

HYUFD said:

Anabobazina said:

HYUFD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

kle4 said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

RobD said:

Gallowgate said:

Genuine question: where is the line?

If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?

Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.

I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.

The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.

However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.

Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?

Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.

I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.

@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.

I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)

He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.

No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive and the majority of voters against the legislature

Prozac?

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

kle4 said:

Casino_Royale said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

PClipp said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

I am a ooffice

If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative

Indeed,

+1

-1

True .

them.

The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.

I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.

.

N

Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.

I'm sure that makes it eaome to your home of straw.

But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.

Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.

That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.

There was no hissy fit. That’s in your mind.

Whatever you say. I'm sure your refusal to answer the point as it was '[un]worthy of a response' (a response which, incidentally, would have clarified matters) was not at all rooted in petulance. I often find that refusing to clarify the point as a matter of protest is totally not an emotional reaction. You're welcome to choose whatever words you like to describe it, and my own response.