The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
Jesmondo in Downing St then?
No, Boris will stay in No 10 unless he loses a VONC and Swinson would of course veto a Corbyn premiership
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
A few minutes ago I donated the national Liberal Democrats for the first time in 7 + years. I think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.
If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative
Indeed,
+1
-1
True Conservatives will stay in the party’s outer orbit and fight to maintain it as a broad church, anchored to the principles of conservatism and realism it has always espoused.
them.
The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.
I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.
In your opinion it has not fundamays be wrong because they have left.
How long should they attempt such a fight? How long is long enough in the outer orbit? It seems mightily reminiscent of all those Labour MPs who loved to moan about Jeremy Corbyn but still happy to attempt to put him in power, making their words seem awfully hollow.
Nope. You’re fighting a straw man.
Ken Clarke, Philip Hammond, Nicholas Soames and Dominic Grieve (lifelong Conservatives) have chosen to stay and fight rather than defect to a party - the Liberal Democrats - that holds very different principles. They are in different category to Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston, who’ve never been convincing Conservatives.
And it’s not clear Boris is all that popular either, so the fight is very far from forlorn.
Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.
I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
If he had 17m voters behind him he would be doing significantly better in those polls you so love
Between them Brexit and Corbyn have done wonders for the party memberships of all the big 3 UK parties, they should be very grateful. Granted it is low compared to the glory days, but its definitely an uptick for them compared to recent trends.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
I love the 17m who voted leave line, because I assume the omission of the 0.4 others is to acknowledge not every one of those who voted leave now back the PM, but that it does not matter because the number who have changed their mind is small.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
A few minutes ago I donated the national Liberal Democrats for the first time in 7 + years. I think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.
Have just given Yeovil lib dems and bracknell lib dems, both constituencies I have been associated, more money than ever before I may even phone bank canvass from out in Spain.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terrible there is no incentive to go for an election. That was the same for a government before the FTPA and is equally true of the opposition now. If HY is right it is much less likely there will be an election so current polling matters not a bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reported today Boris will refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension even if the Commons votes for it and the Queen has to give it royal assent, Boris will ensure only the hands of Corbyn and diehard Remainers are on the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
Is it possible Boris has a bet that Corbyn will be PM, however temporarily? He just wants to ensure the man takes over as a caretaker before he then returns to No.10 after an election.
If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative
Indeed,
+1
-1
True .
them.
The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.
I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.
.
N
Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.
I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.
I am defending lifelong core Conservatives - who aren’t even from my side of the party; I’m a right winger - from a leader who’s acting like an entryist and hasn’t even bothered trying to reach out to wings of the party that didn’t personally vote for him.
I don’t agree with them defecting to the Lib Dem’s. I want them to stay and fight and, to their credit, they are.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to move and ask Brussels for an extension and he cannot be forced out unless he loses a VONC leading to a general election unless an alternative PM is agreed in 14 days
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
Of course not, although many people do present it as a moral issue, of delivering on promises and keeping their word, not merely a political fundamental.
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
If it might be immoral....yes that says it all the man is demented
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of pilinseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
As the weekend polls will show Boris won't need any, Corbyn might though and I will have no sympathy for him certainly
If the polls are good for him why will Labour give him an election?
Quite. If the polls are terriba bit.
Not if SNP give Boris his mid Oct election.
Not happening . The opposition will agree an election but not till an extension has been agreed .
ITV news has reportedon the betrayal of the will of the people, not his
What’s he going to do? Resign and let Jezza into no.10?
No, stay in No 10 and refuse to moays
Er, he’d be breaking the law.
Boris can do what he likes as PM which he will stay as unless he loses a VONC.
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
Genuine question: where is the line?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers? Comparing this to an obviously morally wrong scenario is absurd.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative
Indeed,
+1
-1
True .
them.
The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.
I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.
.
N
Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.
I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.
That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers? Comparing this to an obviously morally wrong scenario is absurd.
Can you really not see the difference between twisting parliamentary procedures and simply ignoring the rule of law?
Bibi no doubt offering him advice on how he keeps winning elections despite being loathed by the liberal left
I just realised that TGOHF and HYUFD are different people.
One stands for The Ghost Of Harry Flashman, the other for Have You Used Fallacious Data.
TGOHF is an earnestly right wing fellow. HYUFD is an unstable form of matter that sublimes between turbulent jackbootery and outrageous and genuinely funny self parody without ever being seen in any intermediate state.
HYUFD is the more interesting of the two, in that he could easily be two quite different people posting on the same account.
TGOFH, in common with a majority of us, tends to provide more heat than light, but HYUFD is in another league, making the room darker, like some dismal, unfillable pit. Or a black hole sucking life from the firmament.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
Brexit "not a moral issue"? Of course it's a moral bloody issue, it hugely affects the individual rights of millions of people. Do you believe that "One death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic"?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
Between them Brexit and Corbyn have done wonders for the party memberships of all the big 3 UK parties, they should be very grateful. Granted it is low compared to the glory days, but its definitely an uptick for them compared to recent trends.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become to government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal
You don’t understand.
You are a remainer but you are supporting Leave now because of democracy right?
So where is the line?
Would you support anything the people voted for? If not, why not?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal
But they shouldn’t base their decision on an opinion poll,which you seem to believe gives moral authority to do anything
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become to government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal
You don’t understand.
You are a remainer but you are supporting Leave now because of democracy right?
So where is the line?
Would you support anything the people voted for? If not, why not?
I would not vote for anything no but in a democracy if a governing party wins with a manifesto commitment, as the Tories did in 2017 to take Britain out of the EU as did the DUP that must become the law
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal
Read up on this and the Abandonment of reality section.
Then I suggest you try some historical reading. Start with the Nuremberg Trials.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal
Read up on this and the Abandonment of reality section.
Then I suggest you try some historical reading. Start with the Nuremberg Trials.
The Nuremberg Trials happened as the Allies won and used international law against German law at the time the Nazis were in power, had the Nazis won the war the Nuremberg Trials would never have happened
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member and campaign for the opposition to get my property restored at the next GE
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
Boris treated May poorly, plotted, undermined her and killed her premiership.
This is karma.
No, that was Corbyn and diehard Remainers mainly, Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.
What actually is happening is Boris is building a Tory lead May lost ready to finally deliver the Leave vote the diehard Remainers in Parliament have refused to respect
Absolutely laughable interpretation of history - even you can genuinely be keeping a straight face whilst writing it. Johnson voted for the WA when everyone knew it was effectively dead and after May's leadership was destroyed. After he had done as much as anyone to destroy it and make it impossible for opposition parties to back it. Resigning from the Cabinet over it, speaking implacably against it in the House of Commons, and writing non stop about how terrible it was on a weekly basis in the Daily Telegraph. He was as responsible as anyone for the extension in March, and the subsequently polling collapse.
If anything the fact that he did finally vote for it only makes his actions worse - in demonstrating that he did everything out of personal ambition and not personal conviction
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member and campaign for the opposition to get my property restored at the next GE
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I’m feeling personally attacked by this line of questioning.
Just wait for a Corbyn premiership, we might experience it firsthand with all private property taken over by the State!
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.
Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law
If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative
Indeed,
+1
-1
True .
them.
The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.
I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.
.
N
Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.
I'm sure that makes it easier for you, but your position as I interpreted it, and which you haven't actually disputed, is very strawlike. I don't see what is hard about a hypothetical, about whether there are any circumstances under which it is 'ok' to leave the party. If it is, then ok, you have a different threshold than someone else but it is still reasonable. If it is not, then welcome to your home of straw.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.
That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
This is not freedom of movement. It means we may be able to visit for "short stays" (how short?) without a visa. We will be able to go to France for days rather than weeks. When I was younger I worked in France for a ski season. I couldn't do that now. This is such small beer.
Usually “short stay” is 90 days vacation or business trip. Working as a chalet girl wouldn’t qualify Doug 😉
@HYUFD if there was a GE and a party was elected with 50% of the vote with a policy to strip all the residents of Essex of their property, I assume you wouldn’t protest?
I would protest but if it was a manifesto commitment I would accept it would be implemented and go and live with another family member and campaign for the opposition to get my property restored at the next GE
Have you ever heard of the concept of inalienable rights? Those are the rights that the American colonists felt the British Government has breached in imposing taxes without consent, in a manner that was probably legislatively in order. The rights that the Jews in Germany had taken away from them by the actions of the then government from 1933 onwards? At what point would you feel that an elected government had gone too far and you had the right to rebel, even if the majority opposed you?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
Is it sustainable to argue that “voters should decide what happens next” without ending up with a second referendum?
I think it is, though in practice if the pro-EU parties win a combined majority in a GE then they will probably want to hold a second referendum as cover.
I won't bore on too much about my personal opinion on referendums within a representative democracy, other than to reiterate the view that they are not a terribly good idea.
Beyond that, if it does come to a second vote then I'm changing sides. I would now back Remain. I've also decided that I can be arsed to vote in the next election (even though I still think my vote is most unlikely to count for anything, because of the system,) and I shall be backing the Liberal Democrats. This is not primarily because they favour Remain, but rather because they are the only available party that doesn't terrify me.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.
Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law
Really? So you feel the Nuremberg Trials were not legitimate? That the American Colonists had no right to revolt? That the Tienamen Square protestors had it coming?
A few minutes ago I donated the national Liberal Democrats for the first time in 7 + years. I think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.
Perhaps those WW1 analogies are correct after all.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
@AlastairMeeks@Cyclefree are you able to educate us on this? What are the possible consequences legally?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive and the majority of voters against the legislature
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive against the legislature
Would you really want to set a precedent that the PM is above the law?
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive against the legislature
I think you need to bring your passionately Brexiter hot-air balloon a little closer back down to earth, Mr HYUFD.
Sure, although I think her statement that the public look to their leaders for calmness and civility at such times is mistaken. Quite the opposite, the public loves it when their chap (or chapette) attacks the other lot. Whether the public should expect such calmness and civility from its leaders, and whether they need it are another matter.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
It might be immoral but technically in a democracy with an unwritten constitution as we have whatever a majority of the voters want will ultimately become the law yes
So - by your standard, the nazis were not doing anything wrong?
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
No, I did not say that and it is an outrageous distortion of what I said.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
Read a book on jurisprudence - or maybe just skip to the chapter on Natural Law.
Natural law is based on morality, that does not mean it always constitutes actual law
Really? So you feel the Nuremberg Trials were not legitimate? That the American Colonists had no right to revolt? That the Tienamen Square protestors had it coming?
Under the laws of the lands at the time those were illegal acts yes but of course certainly in the latter 2 cases it was authoritarian regimes defying the people much as the current Parliament is defying the will of the people as expressed in 2016
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
Good lord. How the two are even remotely equivalent is beyond me.
I didn’t say they were equivalent. I asked where the line was.
The current argument is about political maneuverings to deliver Brexit, against the wishes of a Commons that would rather remain. It's not a moral issue, or about whether people should be killed or not.
However a PM ignoring the law because he has ‘17m people behind him’ is.
Remainers have bent the constitution to get their way, why not leavers?
Have remainers broken the law? Bent not broken implies they have not in your eyes, even if they have behaved poorly. So breaking the law in response would seem an escalation.
I was more thinking about scenarios to block the passage of the bill. Not that I want such a think to happen, it' my view that if it's passed by the commons, the queen must sign.
@HYUFD specifically said that Boris would ignore the law even if given royal assent and justified that because ‘17m’.
I said Boris would refuse to go to Brussels to ask for an extension as reported today, he cannot be forced to do so unless another PM replaces him after a VONC (though a VONC could also lead to a general election at last)
He will have to ask for an extension under the law of the land. Do you understand Benn? It would be a criminal act not to do so. Unless he resigns.
No he will not, what are they going to do? Arrest Boris for refusing to ask for an extension most voters don't want. If they do watch the Tory voteshare rise yet further as we enter the final stages of all out civil war of the executive and the majority of voters against the legislature
The outrage over this is pretty obviously a partisan level one. A Conservative would defend it, and a Labour person condemn it, and if Corbyn were to give a speech in front of police officers Labour would defend it and a Conservative person condemn it.
Meh, I'm a Tory and I condemn it. Photoshoots with a couple of officers, fine... but having them all lined up behind you while you drone on about something unrelated to policing? There's something decidedly un-British about that.
Outliers in all things. Cannot say I like it either, but the level of outrage seems attached to people's dislike of Boris, it is all out of proportion.
There is a weird kind of piling on going on this week, it's very bizarre. I think it will go too far at some point and a sympathy response kick in. It's a feeding frenzy right now which is unseemly in a time of crisis
Pity is the emotion that politicians fear most. Not that Boris Johnson deserves any.
Boris treated May poorly, plotted, undermined her and killed her premiership.
This is karma.
No, that was Corbyn and diehard Remainers mainly, Boris voted for the Withdrawal Agreement at MV3.
What actually is happening is Boris is building a Tory lead May lost ready to finally deliver the Leave vote the diehard Remainers in Parliament have refused to respect
Absolutely laughable interpretation of history - even you can genuinely be keeping a straight face whilst writing it. Johnson voted for the WA when everyone knew it was effectively dead and after May's leadership was destroyed. After he had done as much as anyone to destroy it and make it impossible for opposition parties to back it. Resigning from the Cabinet over it, speaking implacably against it in the House of Commons, and writing non stop about how terrible it was on a weekly basis in the Daily Telegraph. He was as responsible as anyone for the extension in March, and the subsequently polling collapse.
If anything the fact that he did finally vote for it only makes his actions worse - in demonstrating that he did everything out of personal ambition and not personal conviction
Laughable interpretation? Sorry, but this evening's posting from HYUFD have convinced me that he has taken leave of his senses.
If you refuse to respect the Brexit vote and Leave Deal or No Deal then sadly BigG you are now a LD, not a conservative
Indeed,
+1
-1
True .
them.
The party hasn’t fundamentally changed. Yet. It’s in the process of a hostile takeover by entryists. And it’s very far from clear if that will succeed.
I’m arguing to stay and fight, and not cut and run.
.
N
Your final sentence is a massive non sequitur, which isn’t worthy of a response.
I'm sure that makes it eaome to your home of straw.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
Try reading what I wrote again. I’m not arguing there aren’t any circumstances under which you should leave a party. That’s the straw man. If you want to debate hypotheticals, that’s fine, but that wasn’t what I was disagreeing with.
That was the only question I was curious on, and instead of being clear about it you whinged about non-sequiturs because I didn't glean that from your words. I took your words as arguing any leaving was wrong, and you moaned about straw men rather than actually dispute the point. I'm glad to see you are not so unreasonable as to think that and are not made of straw, but I don't see why you threw a hissy fit about it because I cannot read your mind.
There was no hissy fit. That’s in your mind.
Whatever you say. I'm sure your refusal to answer the point as it was '[un]worthy of a response' (a response which, incidentally, would have clarified matters) was not at all rooted in petulance. I often find that refusing to clarify the point as a matter of protest is totally not an emotional reaction. You're welcome to choose whatever words you like to describe it, and my own response.
Comments
He has 17 million Leave voters behind him in doing so and taking on the diehard Remainers in Parliament who refuse to respect the will of the people
think the country is locked in a mobilisation/counter-mobilisation cycle.
But I appreciate party members hate it when they realise they all act the same way, regardless of what party they belong to - it is not a non-sequitur, the Tories are acting increasingly like Corbyn fans, sorry if that upsets you but the Tories do not have a magical immunity to such behaviours.
If 17m voted to make it legal to kill gay people, would that be okay?
I am defending lifelong core Conservatives - who aren’t even from my side of the party; I’m a right winger - from a leader who’s acting like an entryist and hasn’t even bothered trying to reach out to wings of the party that didn’t personally vote for him.
I don’t agree with them defecting to the Lib Dem’s. I want them to stay and fight and, to their credit, they are.
FFS! Can you not see that you are getting away past the standards of normal behaviour?
I would join myself if it was not such a betrayal of my self-imposed vow never to sully myself by joining any political party.
HYUFD is an unstable form of matter that sublimes between turbulent jackbootery and outrageous and genuinely funny self parody without ever being seen in any intermediate state.
HYUFD is the more interesting of the two, in that he could easily be two quite different people posting on the same account.
TGOFH, in common with a majority of us, tends to provide more heat than light, but HYUFD is in another league, making the room darker, like some dismal, unfillable pit. Or a black hole sucking life from the firmament.
What I said was if a majority of voters vote for something or for a political party to become the government to implement it it will become the law, no matter how immoral, unless a written constitution blocks it and is not repealed or amended to facilitate it.
What the Nazis did was obviously immoral and evil but as they were the governing party in Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s it was not illegal under German law
You are a remainer but you are supporting Leave now because of democracy right?
So where is the line?
Would you support anything the people voted for? If not, why not?
Then I suggest you try some historical reading. Start with the Nuremberg Trials.
Boris - "I see you have some family problems"
Brenda - "See you next Tuesday"
Boris - "If I don't make it send for Jezza .... only kidding ....
Actually to be fair to Boris the Queen does thank Boris on a regular basis.
‘Dear Prime Minister, thank you for keeping my nonce befriending son off the front pages’
(Boris is very poorly advised. Sometimes it’s better to say nothing)
If anything the fact that he did finally vote for it only makes his actions worse - in demonstrating that he did everything out of personal ambition and not personal conviction
Karma police, arrest this man...
Well, this is, erm, courageous in the current climate (and all the more commendable for it).
If anyone’s looking after JRM, they’d be well-advised to staple his gob on this for a few days.
https://twitter.com/CMO_England/status/1169673321522388995?s=20
If the voters want a referendum let them vote for it.
What _exactly_ happens?
I won't bore on too much about my personal opinion on referendums within a representative democracy, other than to reiterate the view that they are not a terribly good idea.
Beyond that, if it does come to a second vote then I'm changing sides. I would now back Remain. I've also decided that I can be arsed to vote in the next election (even though I still think my vote is most unlikely to count for anything, because of the system,) and I shall be backing the Liberal Democrats. This is not primarily because they favour Remain, but rather because they are the only available party that doesn't terrify me.
I guess it doesn’t matter that Blair lied about Iraq cos 54%.