politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Just because TMay found it easy getting MPs to the vote for GE
Options
Comments
-
Well said sir!Big_G_NorthWales said:
You need to chill out. You are getting too shrill to be honestHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
It was an advisory vote. Its context therefore sets its mandate. You can’t argue both that the vote must be implemented but its context ignored. That’s having your cake and eating it.Charles said:
There was a voteAlastairMeeks said:
A deal was agreed. No one wanted it.Big_G_NorthWales said:My concern in all of this is that with the exception of Corbyn each leader wants to stop brexit completely, not just no deal
Anyone acting as a defacto leader needs to prevent no deal, but must also prevent no brexit by agreeing a deal with the EU. Anything else is just wrong for democracy
We have to start from where we are, which is a bad place. There is no mandate for no deal Brexit or for revoke. No one seriously wants to try for a different deal. So a fresh mandate is needed. It’s not good but all the other options are worse.
The choice was “leave” or “remain”
A mandate was given to leave
Just because people who disagree with that have tried to do everything in their power to stop it (except the thing that is actually in their power) doesn’t weaken the mandate0 -
An ambitious 30-something political hack who is a slave to opinion polls bs someone who...isn’t...?kle4 said:
You're certain of that, HYUFD is certain he will if he has to: who to believe?Charles said:
He’s not going to prorogueHYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
I think Boris would do anything if he thinks it will give him more time as PM, and as his time is dependent on securing or being seen to try to secure no deal, he would consider any action to do so. That his adoring supporters are fully committed to justifying anything including prorogation means it cannot be ruled out.
Not ruling out prorogation is because it’s a stupid question. It’s a made up thing by the media - of course the government doesn’t - it shouldn’t - opine on every hypothetical otherwise they’d get nothing done
If - and I don’t believe it will - becomes a real thing then the government will propose it and we’ll have the debate then.0 -
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.0 -
I'm sure that will help them sleep at night if we remain as a result of their refusal to get us out earlier this year.HYUFD said:
They have still voted for Brexit and to deliver the will of the people to Leave the EUkle4 said:
But it is totally ok to do what the no dealers who also refused to vote for the WA want of course.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Intention can be very important indeed, but the practical consequences of their actions may be that we do not leave the EU at all. I know you think we still will, and that might be so, but they have permitted the risk that we dso not. Now some few of them may think that acceptable, better no Brexit than a bad Brexit, but will all of them? I doubt it, and they will whinge to high heaven to avoid facing the truth that their votes against the WA may contribute to us not leaving, just as much as any die hard remainer.0 -
So after 3 years we haven't identified a solution yet Boris (a PM even less technically literate than any of our last 5 PMs) is going to find one the EU will accept within the next 25 days...HYUFD said:
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is founderistdoof said:
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicornHYUFD said:
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming foreek said:
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.HYUFD said:
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes provedwilliamglenn said:
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?dixiedean said:
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.rcs1000 said:
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.williamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.0 -
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
“if necessary” doing a lot of work thereHYUFD said:
He will if necessary from who I know in camp BorisCharles said:
He’s not going to prorogueHYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Which explicitly ruled out No Deal.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.0 -
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules0 -
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
It also wasn’t “do you wish to leave at any cost” either. The electorate did not sign a blank cheque for any mad plan.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Do you wish to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.1 -
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.0 -
Geekgasm alert.
0 -
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Jo as Captain MarvelTheScreamingEagles said:
0 -
You may be correct regarding parliament.kle4 said:
Granted it is so convoluted and many thanks not necessarily easy or legal are being suggested, but I still think Parliament will manage to get an extension or a GE before then somehow. Bercow will be as accomodating as he needs to be to permit it, and if there's a GE before no deal Brexit then BXP will stand.Yorkcity said:
I agree with HYFUD that Johnson will not extend past the 311019.kle4 said:
The idea that Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down seems to me to rely on the premise that he would not pursue a course of action which is self destructive to his stated aims, and I don't know that that can be relied upon. "Sorry lads, I know we said we'd all stand if we were not out by now, but Boris really will take us out and needs us to step down to do it, we have to trust him".Yorkcity said:
I agree, Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
So no deal it is , therefore Farage and the Brexit Party, have achieved their aim.
So no requirement in a GE to stand against the Conservative party.
And even if it happens afterwards and BXP do not stand, what point is there in voting for the Tories once Brexit has been acheived? They no longer care about the Union (not enough at any rate, they would happily sacrifice it for Brexit) nor do they have any way to distinguishing themselves from Labour in the splashing cash around stakes.
All the opposition groups today coming to an agreement shows some intent.
However I just do not see it happening.
If Johnson wants a no deal, it is hard to see parliament stopping him.
As I do not think there are the numbers.
When MPs such as Morgan and Rudd, join his cabinet , it gives a sense of direction.0 -
This place is turning into a malfunctioning Eliza bot this evening.
"Eliza simulated conversation by using a 'pattern matching' and substitution methodology that gave users an illusion of understanding on the part of the program, but had no built in framework for contextualizing events"0 -
Under the terms of the FTPA any Parliament elected this Autumn will be dissolved at the end of March 2024 for a GE to be held in the first week of May that year - it would be a four and a half year Parliament rather than five years.rpjs said:
I don't think anyone "steps forward" to be PM. They are summoned by the monarch and asked to form a government, and they can decline that commission. Who the monarch summons is usually advised to the monarch by the outgoing PM. However, it seems that when Eden resigned after Suez, the queen sought advice from "grandees" of the Tory party. It's unclear to me whether Eden offered advice on his successor or not, but it does seem that in theory the monarch can take advice as they see fit.tlg86 said:
Her Maj could be put in an interesting position if no one steps forward to be PM. How long could the queen leave it before dissolving parliament? I guess long enough to allow Bercow to do what he has to do.AlastairMeeks said:
He can resign. He doesn’t get to choose his replacement by himself, especially if there is no indication that person wants to be Prime Minister. Parliament can choose who speaks for it on a given subject. That may or may not be the same as the person it wishes to lead the government.tlg86 said:
What’s to stop Boris going to the palace and saying “send for Bercow”?AlastairMeeks said:
The advantage of my route is that you get none of that chest-puffing that comes with a vote of no confidence. And it leaves Boris Johnson stranded in office, which suits absolutely everyone else.TheScreamingEagles said:
In that case they should go the whole hog and make Bercow PM.AlastairMeeks said:
If I were drafting it, I would empower a new person, possibly the Speaker, to negotiate on behalf of Britain on the question of whether to extend the Article 50 period and to act on Britain’s behalf. Boris Johnson would have nothing to do.eek said:They can be voting through an Act of Parliament that doesn't allow for a No Deal Brexit.
That also appears to be the initial plan for next week onwards.
And declaring himself LotO.
The queen no longer has any power to dissolve Parliament. Parliament can only be dissolved under one of the three ways specified by the FPTA: automatically after five years, on the vote of 2/3 of MPs for an early election, or fourteen days after a VONC with no subsequent VOC having been passed. Actually, strictly speaking those three ways trigger the process of setting a date for a new general election, and Parliament is dissolved twenty-five working days before that date.0 -
Whislt I would agree there is a lot of nonsense gameplaying going on to avoid using the most obvious and even logical avenues of approach for the actions that they want to take, using minor or obscure rules to frustrate or developing new precedent is not, I think, unpermissable even if it is a bad idea.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules0 -
No deal was NOT mentioned in the Referendum question.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes tookle4 said:
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Prince Andrew coming under fire on Sky news conference from the US0
-
No, a referendum put forward by the Government to let the people decide our futureAlastairMeeks said:
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.0 -
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.HYUFD said:
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is founderistdoof said:
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicornHYUFD said:
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming foreek said:
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.HYUFD said:
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes provedwilliamglenn said:
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?dixiedean said:
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.rcs1000 said:
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.williamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.0 -
To deliver Brexit on October 31st Deal or No DealCharles said:
“if necessary” doing a lot of work thereHYUFD said:
He will if necessary from who I know in camp BorisCharles said:
He’s not going to prorogueHYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Why did you vote REMAIN, HYUFD?HYUFD said:diehard Remainers
0 -
Yes, advisory. This is a matter of fact. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts. You are repeatedly descending into fantasy to back up your extreme ideas.HYUFD said:
No, a referendum put forward by the Government to let the people decide our futureAlastairMeeks said:
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
I was more referring to the fact you have a religious devotion to the will of those who voted leave, while deriding anyone who did vote leave who has dared to change their mind because they do not wish to pay any price to see it happen.HYUFD said:
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes tookle4 said:
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
As we had opt outs etc, without I would have voted Leave.Sunil_Prasannan said:
However Leave won and that vote must be delivered, otherwise if Corbyn wins the next general election (with a majority or minority Government) I and other Tories will refuse to accept him as a legitimate PM, as I expect would Brexit Party voters0 -
Why not? Your only argument seems to be that you don’t like the idea.Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules0 -
Why did you think voting LEAVE was wrong back in 2016?HYUFD said:
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes tookle4 said:
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
There's a sort of feel like what you'd get if you were a downed fighter pilot who's been interrogated under the spotlight for 72 hours straight without sleep.El_Capitano said:This place is turning into a malfunctioning Eliza bot this evening.
"Eliza simulated conversation by using a 'pattern matching' and substitution methodology that gave users an illusion of understanding on the part of the program, but had no built in framework for contextualizing events"
1 -
Both Brexit and a deal have denocratic mandates. The first from the referendum and the GE. The second from a GE. MPs are trying to get over their determination to not fulfil the deal mandate by not fulfilling the Brexit mandate.0
-
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.HYUFD said:
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a DealAlastairMeeks said:
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)0 -
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:0 -
Fine then Boris goes to No Deal having looked reasonable and wins the PR warkle4 said:
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.HYUFD said:
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is founderistdoof said:
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicornHYUFD said:
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming foreek said:
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.HYUFD said:
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes provedwilliamglenn said:
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?dixiedean said:
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.rcs1000 said:
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.williamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.0 -
Has Larry the Cat defected to the opposition?TheScreamingEagles said:Geekgasm alert.
0 -
So we can't stay in the Single Market/Customs Union because Remain said we'd leave those if we voted Leave, but we *can* leave without a deal even though Leave said we would definitely leave with a deal.
Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttttt0 -
I'm interested to understand why you feel that's such a bad thing @Charles?Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules0 -
Far from it, there will only be no such thing as a Tory safe seat if the Tories do not deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by the next general electionBenpointer said:Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)0 -
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
Your comments are becoming surrealHYUFD said:
As we had opt outs etc, without I would have voted Leave.Sunil_Prasannan said:
However Leave won and that vote must be delivered, otherwise if Corbyn wins the next general election (with a majority or minority Government) I and other Tories will refuse to accept him as a legitimate PM, as I expect would Brexit Party voters0 -
Rock-catkle4 said:
Has Larry the Cat defected to the opposition?TheScreamingEagles said:Geekgasm alert.
0 -
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
Cos Cammo told him to.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why did you vote REMAIN, HYUFD?HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Then Tezzie told him to back her deal, so he did.
Now Bozo wants him to cheerlead for No Deal and amazingly enough that is now HY's position.0 -
EFTA would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. If we had had a decent opposition, it would probably have been in place by now.OllyT said:
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.HYUFD said:
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a DealAlastairMeeks said:
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Indeed. I accept that by implication those of us who voted leave did risk that (once Parliament triggered based on the vote at any rate) and I cannot pretend that a worst case scenario was not a risk in voting Leave, but you simply cannot add up everyone who voted leave as being behind any leave option, and dismiss those who have, whilst holding the will of those who cast that vote to be sacrosanct and immutable. Those are mutually exclusive views.Jonathan said:
It also wasn’t “do you wish to leave at any cost” either. The electorate did not sign a blank cheque for any mad plan.HYUFD said:
Wrong the question was 'Do you wish to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'MikeSmithson said:
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandateHYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.0 -
The Stupid Squad have assembled...kle4 said:
Has Larry the Cat defected to the opposition?TheScreamingEagles said:Geekgasm alert.
Larry the Cat....
Stupid squad...
Larry the Cat "jeez"
0 -
Or an election/vote.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
In the sense that it would stop us ending free movement from the EU and doing our own trade deals as the Leave campaign promised, in 10 years time one EU migration is under control the single market may be an option again but not nowOllyT said:
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.HYUFD said:
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a DealAlastairMeeks said:
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
The Leave campaign promised we would leave with a deal!!!HYUFD said:
In the sense that it would stop us ending free movement from the EU and doing our own trade deals as the Leave campaign promised, in 10 years time one EU migration is under control the single market may be an option again but not now
0 -
Spare him, Sunil. He's had his psych evaluation this month.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Why did you think voting LEAVE was wrong back in 2016?HYUFD said:
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes tookle4 said:
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Only if an election/vote results in Brexit and a deal. If an election results in either No Deal or overturning a referendum before it is implemented, that will only be governing for half the country and the country will plunge further into division.Jonathan said:
Or an election/vote.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
4 people in Chez BJOkle4 said:
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.SandyRentool said:
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
All voted Leave
None of us accept No Deal
There is no Leaver Mandate for No Deal that would require 96% of Leavers to be up for that.
No chance0 -
Which realistically means there is no such thing as a safe Tory seat - as I've stated for a long time Brexit will destroy the Tory party. The only question is how it dies.HYUFD said:
Far from it, there will only be no such thing as a Tory safe seat if the Tories do not deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by the next general electionBenpointer said:Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)0 -
If he genuinely has a good idea on the border, he might. If it is not a good idea, then his reasonableness will not be so obvious - as with the Labour MPs who constantly flirted with the idea of backing the WA but never did so, attempting to appear reasonable (in the sense of considering an option, not saying that backing the WA is inherently reasonable) when not genuine about doing so can also backfire.HYUFD said:
Fine then Boris goes to No Deal having looked reasonable and wins the PR warkle4 said:
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.HYUFD said:
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is founderistdoof said:
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicornHYUFD said:
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming foreek said:
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.HYUFD said:
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes provedwilliamglenn said:
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?dixiedean said:
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.rcs1000 said:
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.williamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.0 -
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
Until parliament voted for Article 50 it could legally have been ignored. Politically it would have been unwise.AlastairMeeks said:
It was an advisory vote. Its context therefore sets its mandate. You can’t argue both that the vote must be implemented but its context ignored. That’s having your cake and eating it.Charles said:
There was a voteAlastairMeeks said:
A deal was agreed. No one wanted it.Big_G_NorthWales said:My concern in all of this is that with the exception of Corbyn each leader wants to stop brexit completely, not just no deal
Anyone acting as a defacto leader needs to prevent no deal, but must also prevent no brexit by agreeing a deal with the EU. Anything else is just wrong for democracy
We have to start from where we are, which is a bad place. There is no mandate for no deal Brexit or for revoke. No one seriously wants to try for a different deal. So a fresh mandate is needed. It’s not good but all the other options are worse.
The choice was “leave” or “remain”
A mandate was given to leave
Just because people who disagree with that have tried to do everything in their power to stop it (except the thing that is actually in their power) doesn’t weaken the mandate
Fundamentally parliament’s authority is delegated from the voters*. Parliament chose to refer a fundamental question back to the electorate. The electorate gave an instruction (“leave”) and it is up to the executive and parliament to implement that in the way it sees fit.
Unfortunately because my neighbour screwed up and drafted a really crap process we have now run out of time. Parliament either need to vote for a deal, revoke (and pay the political price) or accept we are leaving with no deal
* don’t go all Burkean on me. I am not saying individual MPs are delegates0 -
You've lost me.Omnium said:
The Stupid Squad have assembled...kle4 said:
Has Larry the Cat defected to the opposition?TheScreamingEagles said:Geekgasm alert.
Larry the Cat....
Stupid squad...
Larry the Cat "jeez"0 -
Or maybe allowing the people to decide between Deal, No Deal and Remain.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.Gabs2 said:
Only if an election/vote results in Brexit and a deal. If an election results in either No Deal or overturning a referendum before it is implemented, that will only be governing for half the country and the country will plunge further into division.Jonathan said:
Or an election/vote.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to eMikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
0 -
Boris may well be playing a three way game of Bluff- Trying to bluff the EU on the backstop, trying to bluff a deal through the HoC and/or trying to bluff a VoNC/early general election if a no deal is all he can pull off.
Problem starts when he gets nothing back from the EU and can not get an early GE. Also just maybe the voters are bluffing him: If he ended up with another hung Parliament, he would be out in 10 minutes, since the chance of winning an election outright is literally the only reason why the Conservatives are not formally splitting right now. Meanwhile his game of bluff on the GE is not under his control and his political opponents are talking and they have plans of their own to nail no deal and with it the Johnson premiership.
No deal, no "no deal", no GE- back to where we were 6 months ago and Johnson is the 7th successive Tory leader crucified by his own side.0 -
That would still be a rerun of the referendum before it was implemented. I support being in the EU but us Remainers can't reasonably demand a second bite at the cherry when we would never have given it the other way.Benpointer said:
Or maybe allowing the people to decide between Deal, No Deal and Remain.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
But only with a deal. You cannot conflate trying to block No Deal with trying to block Brexit simply because it suits you to do so, Leavers cannot railroad the country into a No Deal Brexit having won the campaign based on only leaving with a deal. There is no mandate for No Deal however much you try to pretend there is. The Co-Chair of the Leave Campaign has said as much.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.0 -
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.0 -
Amusing, in that sense, that the very act of voting in the Commons is through a division.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.Gabs2 said:
to division.Jonathan said:
Or an election/vote.Gabs2 said:
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.Jonathan said:
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
Frit.HYUFD said:Gallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to eMikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.0 -
Rubbish, not delivering Brexit would have destroyed the Tory Party, now the Tories are committed to Brexit Deal or No Deal they are losing fewer voters to the Brexit Party while Brexit is actually destroying Corbyn Labour now as it trails the Tories under Boris in the polls and is still losing Remainers to the LDseek said:
Which realistically means there is no such thing as a safe Tory seat - as I've stated for a long time Brexit will destroy the Tory party. The only question is how it dies.HYUFD said:
Far from it, there will only be no such thing as a Tory safe seat if the Tories do not deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by the next general electionBenpointer said:Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)0 -
Sure. But it’s not, as Alastair was trying to present it, Parliament acting within its normal rights. It’s MPs scrabbling around for an alternative to doing what they can do by right (because they don’t have the numbers)kle4 said:
Whislt I would agree there is a lot of nonsense gameplaying going on to avoid using the most obvious and even logical avenues of approach for the actions that they want to take, using minor or obscure rules to frustrate or developing new precedent is not, I think, unpermissable even if it is a bad idea.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules0 -
Just trust me on this ok. It isn’t going to happen.HYUFD said:
To deliver Brexit on October 31st Deal or No DealCharles said:
“if necessary” doing a lot of work thereHYUFD said:
He will if necessary from who I know in camp BorisCharles said:
He’s not going to prorogueHYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
It's too late for that. If it was going to happen it would have been MV3 and prior to the extension. That extension fundamentally changed and hyper charged what was already a horribly divisive process. Although it did not feel like it some MPs were compromising at that point, Boris for one at MV3, but now the only compromising going on is those formerly in the middle choosing between extremes to follow.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins".It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nationJonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
There is not the slightest indication that there is any hope of coming back together over this. The very pitches of both sides to that effect are insulting. "We need to unite as a country. By defeating those evil remainers/Leavers!".0 -
Yes! Exactly! It takes two to tango and the hardliners on both sides are all guilty as hell for this mess. People need to swallow their pride and vote for a deal. And the EU could do their bit by compromising a bit to get a more swallowable deal for parliament.kle4 said:
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
Because it is the executive’s role to propose legislationAlastairMeeks said:
Why not? Your only argument seems to be that you don’t like the idea.Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
I believe in the separation of powers0 -
You're right.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
However, 'advisory' wasn't what anyone campaigned on. Nor is it fathomable that you'd ask the British people to go to the voting stations for such a thing. I think this point can be dismissed - agree?
Then what was the Referendum?
Personally I feel that if the mechanism breaks and if we have recourse to things outside of it then gainsaying those things is simply the road to ruin.
I'm pretty sure that in part you agree. I'm certain that you have concluded otherwise though.
Leave won, leave wins.
0 -
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.0 -
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
MPs have always been able to propose legislation. Next!Charles said:
Because it is the executive’s role to propose legislationAlastairMeeks said:
Why not? Your only argument seems to be that you don’t like the idea.Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
I believe in the separation of powers0 -
Just trust me on this, it is, there is no way Boris or Cummings will not deliver Brexit and allow further extension past October 31stCharles said:
Just trust me on this ok. It isn’t going to happen.HYUFD said:
To deliver Brexit on October 31st Deal or No DealCharles said:
“if necessary” doing a lot of work thereHYUFD said:
He will if necessary from who I know in camp BorisCharles said:
He’s not going to prorogueHYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
Like every government does before a new session of parliament which is already overdue.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
0 -
Not quite... since the most vociferous Leavers tend to be older, 20 or 30 years should sort a lot of it.kle4 said:There is not the slightest indication that there is any hope of coming back together over this. The very pitches of both sides to that effect are insulting. "We need to unite as a country. By defeating those evil remainers/Leavers!".
I know people do not like that being mentioned, but it is what it is.0 -
So the EU pull the rug out from underneath the Collective of Treacherous Fuckers on the day they have their inaugural gathering.
Heart of stone etc.....0 -
Well it doesn't necessarily avoid either, but it leaves open a slight chance to avoid that binary choice, and definitely delays it.Jonathan said:
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
The EU has its own politics to consider. They don't want to lose, and will happily pay a price they know we will be blamed for, just as our politicians are.Gabs2 said:
Yes! Exactly! It takes two to tango and the hardliners on both sides are all guilty as hell for this mess. People need to swallow their pride and vote for a deal. And the EU could do their bit by compromising a bit to get a more swallowable deal for parliament.kle4 said:
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.Jonathan said:
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.0 -
Because you need to have an executive with the freedom to act (within its remit) as it sees fit and to be judged accordingly by the electorate.Benpointer said:
I'm interested to understand why you feel that's such a bad thing @Charles?Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
The role of Parliament is represent the electorate in (I) approving or rejecting legislation; (ii) granting supply and authorising taxes; and (iii) generally holding the Executive to account.
Instructing the Executive to follow a specific course of action is something it was not designed to do and is outwith its powers.0 -
Even an arch-Remainer like me would accept EFTA/EEA. Even now.Gabs2 said:
EFTA would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. If we had had a decent opposition, it would probably have been in place by now.OllyT said:
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.HYUFD said:
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a DealAlastairMeeks said:
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered0 -
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.0 -
The backstop was a fatal flaw. A ‘calculated risk’ people were not confident enough to take. Oh well.Gabs2 said:
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.Jonathan said:
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.0 -
Your argument doesn’t followAlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
What you have said is that a case can be made to set aside the referendum
It doesn’t imply that “there is no mandate”: it implies that a politician who was brave enough should ignore the result and justify his/her decision to the voters0 -
I dare say social media does not help, but I doubt it has had that much impact - plenty of the MPs who are so infantile probably do not use any social media. Fundamentally the problem is that not enough leavers were willing to accept a non perfect Brexit, and a great many remainers would not accept any Brexit at all, with the end result that only a 'perfect' Brexit or no Brexit will end up occurring.Gabs2 said:
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.Jonathan said:
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
The one benefit of the current situation is that more of them are being honest, or closer to honest, about only being willing to entertain their perfect options. Theyr'e not quite their yet, there's still plenty of people who would theoretically vote for a deal, except in practice, or claim to not want no deal, but only support unicorns to avoid it, but they are closer.0 -
I wish all PBers well and hope that wisdom and courtesy prevails. And with that ttfn as the plane taxied to the runway.0
-
That’s simply untrue as a matter of history. The well was poisoned by Leavers such as the Prime Minister. Remain-supporting MPs had no reason to support a deal that Leavers transparently hated.Gabs2 said:
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
By the time of the third meaningful vote, MPs outside the Conservative party had no motive given to support a manifestly-detested deal, a detestation whipped up by the likes of Boris Johnson.0 -
I have never had more contempt for MPs of all stripes than I do now. Cromwell may have been an evil genocidal murderer, but maybe he was right about one or two things!kle4 said:
I dare say social media does not help, but I doubt it has had that much impact - plenty of the MPs who are so infantile probably do not use any social media. Fundamentally the problem is that not enough leavers were willing to accept a non perfect Brexit, and a great many remainers would not accept any Brexit at all, with the end result that only a 'perfect' Brexit or no Brexit will end up occurring.Gabs2 said:
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.Jonathan said:
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.Gabs2 said:
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.Jonathan said:
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
The one benefit of the current situation is that more of them are being honest, or closer to honest, about only being willing to entertain their perfect options. Theyr'e not quite their yet, there's still plenty of people who would theoretically vote for a deal, except in practice, or claim to not want no deal, but only support unicorns to avoid it, but they are closer.0 -
Given the public has been consulted once, if events have moved on it should be consulted again.Charles said:
Your argument doesn’t followAlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
What you have said is that a case can be made to set aside the referendum
It doesn’t imply that “there is no mandate”: it implies that a politician who was brave enough should ignore the result and justify his/her decision to the voters0 -
Bollocks. Any Leaver who claims that 17 million wanted to crash out with no deal on the back of Cummings and Banks and BoJo, is going to get a very nasty surprise..HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.0 -
It is absolutely true. Had Boris Johnson been glowing in praise for the deal, Remainer MPs would have seen the light and voted for compromise? That's codswallop. They were determined to do everything they could to vote down any deal May came up with.AlastairMeeks said:
That’s simply untrue as a matter of history. The well was poisoned by Leavers such as the Prime Minister. Remain-supporting MPs had no reason to support a deal that Leavers transparently hated.Gabs2 said:
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.AlastairMeeks said:
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.Gabs2 said:
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.AlastairMeeks said:
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.Omnium said:
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.AlastairMeeks said:
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
By the time of the third meaningful vote, MPs outside the Conservative party had no motive given to support a manifestly-detested deal, a detestation whipped up by the likes of Boris Johnson.0 -
The public elects a Parliament (well HoC), not an Executive... Parliament chooses the Executive. Parliament is sovereign and if Parliament chooses to pass a law instructing the Executive to a course of action, so be it.Charles said:
Because you need to have an executive with the freedom to act (within its remit) as it sees fit and to be judged accordingly by the electorate.Benpointer said:
I'm interested to understand why you feel that's such a bad thing @Charles?Charles said:
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of themAlastairMeeks said:
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.Charles said:
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitutionAlastairMeeks said:It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
The role of Parliament is represent the electorate in (I) approving or rejecting legislation; (ii) granting supply and authorising taxes; and (iii) generally holding the Executive to account.
Instructing the Executive to follow a specific course of action is something it was not designed to do and is outwith its powers.
I cannot see the problem with that but if you could give me an example where it would be a 'bad thing' I'd be prepared to change my view.0 -
A
Anyone can test their popularity in a vote.Cicero said:
Bollocks. Any Leaver who claims that 17 million wanted to crash out with no deal on the back of Cummings and Banks and BoJo, is going to get a very nasty surprise..HYUFD said:
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted LeaveGallowgate said:
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.HYUFD said:
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17Gallowgate said:
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.HYUFD said:
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No DealGallowgate said:
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?HYUFD said:
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine rightSunil_Prasannan said:
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?HYUFD said:
He will ate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.MikeSmithson said:
He might not have that powerHYUFD said:
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PMYorkcity said:
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down.HYUFD said:
And he would still refuse to extendwilliamglenn said:
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.HYUFD said:Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
F*ck me.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.0
This discussion has been closed.