Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
You need to chill out. You are getting too shrill to be honest
My concern in all of this is that with the exception of Corbyn each leader wants to stop brexit completely, not just no deal
Anyone acting as a defacto leader needs to prevent no deal, but must also prevent no brexit by agreeing a deal with the EU. Anything else is just wrong for democracy
A deal was agreed. No one wanted it.
We have to start from where we are, which is a bad place. There is no mandate for no deal Brexit or for revoke. No one seriously wants to try for a different deal. So a fresh mandate is needed. It’s not good but all the other options are worse.
There was a vote
The choice was “leave” or “remain”
A mandate was given to leave
Just because people who disagree with that have tried to do everything in their power to stop it (except the thing that is actually in their power) doesn’t weaken the mandate
It was an advisory vote. Its context therefore sets its mandate. You can’t argue both that the vote must be implemented but its context ignored. That’s having your cake and eating it.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
He’s not going to prorogue
You're certain of that, HYUFD is certain he will if he has to: who to believe?
I think Boris would do anything if he thinks it will give him more time as PM, and as his time is dependent on securing or being seen to try to secure no deal, he would consider any action to do so. That his adoring supporters are fully committed to justifying anything including prorogation means it cannot be ruled out.
An ambitious 30-something political hack who is a slave to opinion polls bs someone who...isn’t...?
Not ruling out prorogation is because it’s a stupid question. It’s a made up thing by the media - of course the government doesn’t - it shouldn’t - opine on every hypothetical otherwise they’d get nothing done
If - and I don’t believe it will - becomes a real thing then the government will propose it and we’ll have the debate then.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But it is totally ok to do what the no dealers who also refused to vote for the WA want of course.
They have still voted for Brexit and to deliver the will of the people to Leave the EU
I'm sure that will help them sleep at night if we remain as a result of their refusal to get us out earlier this year.
Intention can be very important indeed, but the practical consequences of their actions may be that we do not leave the EU at all. I know you think we still will, and that might be so, but they have permitted the risk that we dso not. Now some few of them may think that acceptable, better no Brexit than a bad Brexit, but will all of them? I doubt it, and they will whinge to high heaven to avoid facing the truth that their votes against the WA may contribute to us not leaving, just as much as any die hard remainer.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes proved
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming for
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicorn
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is found
So after 3 years we haven't identified a solution yet Boris (a PM even less technically literate than any of our last 5 PMs) is going to find one the EU will accept within the next 25 days...
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
He’s not going to prorogue
He will if necessary from who I know in camp Boris
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Do you wish to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
It also wasn’t “do you wish to leave at any cost” either. The electorate did not sign a blank cheque for any mad plan.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree, Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
The idea that Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down seems to me to rely on the premise that he would not pursue a course of action which is self destructive to his stated aims, and I don't know that that can be relied upon. "Sorry lads, I know we said we'd all stand if we were not out by now, but Boris really will take us out and needs us to step down to do it, we have to trust him".
I agree with HYFUD that Johnson will not extend past the 311019. So no deal it is , therefore Farage and the Brexit Party, have achieved their aim. So no requirement in a GE to stand against the Conservative party.
Granted it is so convoluted and many thanks not necessarily easy or legal are being suggested, but I still think Parliament will manage to get an extension or a GE before then somehow. Bercow will be as accomodating as he needs to be to permit it, and if there's a GE before no deal Brexit then BXP will stand.
And even if it happens afterwards and BXP do not stand, what point is there in voting for the Tories once Brexit has been acheived? They no longer care about the Union (not enough at any rate, they would happily sacrifice it for Brexit) nor do they have any way to distinguishing themselves from Labour in the splashing cash around stakes.
You may be correct regarding parliament. All the opposition groups today coming to an agreement shows some intent. However I just do not see it happening. If Johnson wants a no deal, it is hard to see parliament stopping him. As I do not think there are the numbers. When MPs such as Morgan and Rudd, join his cabinet , it gives a sense of direction.
This place is turning into a malfunctioning Eliza bot this evening.
"Eliza simulated conversation by using a 'pattern matching' and substitution methodology that gave users an illusion of understanding on the part of the program, but had no built in framework for contextualizing events"
They can be voting through an Act of Parliament that doesn't allow for a No Deal Brexit.
That also appears to be the initial plan for next week onwards.
If I were drafting it, I would empower a new person, possibly the Speaker, to negotiate on behalf of Britain on the question of whether to extend the Article 50 period and to act on Britain’s behalf. Boris Johnson would have nothing to do.
In that case they should go the whole hog and make Bercow PM.
The advantage of my route is that you get none of that chest-puffing that comes with a vote of no confidence. And it leaves Boris Johnson stranded in office, which suits absolutely everyone else.
What’s to stop Boris going to the palace and saying “send for Bercow”?
And declaring himself LotO.
He can resign. He doesn’t get to choose his replacement by himself, especially if there is no indication that person wants to be Prime Minister. Parliament can choose who speaks for it on a given subject. That may or may not be the same as the person it wishes to lead the government.
Her Maj could be put in an interesting position if no one steps forward to be PM. How long could the queen leave it before dissolving parliament? I guess long enough to allow Bercow to do what he has to do.
I don't think anyone "steps forward" to be PM. They are summoned by the monarch and asked to form a government, and they can decline that commission. Who the monarch summons is usually advised to the monarch by the outgoing PM. However, it seems that when Eden resigned after Suez, the queen sought advice from "grandees" of the Tory party. It's unclear to me whether Eden offered advice on his successor or not, but it does seem that in theory the monarch can take advice as they see fit.
The queen no longer has any power to dissolve Parliament. Parliament can only be dissolved under one of the three ways specified by the FPTA: automatically after five years, on the vote of 2/3 of MPs for an early election, or fourteen days after a VONC with no subsequent VOC having been passed. Actually, strictly speaking those three ways trigger the process of setting a date for a new general election, and Parliament is dissolved twenty-five working days before that date.
Under the terms of the FTPA any Parliament elected this Autumn will be dissolved at the end of March 2024 for a GE to be held in the first week of May that year - it would be a four and a half year Parliament rather than five years.
It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitution
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
Whislt I would agree there is a lot of nonsense gameplaying going on to avoid using the most obvious and even logical avenues of approach for the actions that they want to take, using minor or obscure rules to frustrate or developing new precedent is not, I think, unpermissable even if it is a bad idea.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
No deal was NOT mentioned in the Referendum question.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes too
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.
No, a referendum put forward by the Government to let the people decide our future
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes proved
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming for
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicorn
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is found
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
He’s not going to prorogue
He will if necessary from who I know in camp Boris
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Should the UK remain a member of the EU or leave the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
It was an advisory referendum. On your logic it can therefore be ignored.
No, a referendum put forward by the Government to let the people decide our future
Yes, advisory. This is a matter of fact. You can have your own opinions but not your own facts. You are repeatedly descending into fantasy to back up your extreme ideas.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes too
I was more referring to the fact you have a religious devotion to the will of those who voted leave, while deriding anyone who did vote leave who has dared to change their mind because they do not wish to pay any price to see it happen.
As we had opt outs etc, without I would have voted Leave.
However Leave won and that vote must be delivered, otherwise if Corbyn wins the next general election (with a majority or minority Government) I and other Tories will refuse to accept him as a legitimate PM, as I expect would Brexit Party voters
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes too
Why did you think voting LEAVE was wrong back in 2016?
This place is turning into a malfunctioning Eliza bot this evening.
"Eliza simulated conversation by using a 'pattern matching' and substitution methodology that gave users an illusion of understanding on the part of the program, but had no built in framework for contextualizing events"
There's a sort of feel like what you'd get if you were a downed fighter pilot who's been interrogated under the spotlight for 72 hours straight without sleep.
Both Brexit and a deal have denocratic mandates. The first from the referendum and the GE. The second from a GE. MPs are trying to get over their determination to not fulfil the deal mandate by not fulfilling the Brexit mandate.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a Deal
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes proved
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming for
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicorn
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is found
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.
Fine then Boris goes to No Deal having looked reasonable and wins the PR war
So we can't stay in the Single Market/Customs Union because Remain said we'd leave those if we voted Leave, but we *can* leave without a deal even though Leave said we would definitely leave with a deal.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
As we had opt outs etc, without I would have voted Leave.
However Leave won and that vote must be delivered, otherwise if Corbyn wins the next general election (with a majority or minority Government) I and other Tories will refuse to accept him as a legitimate PM, as I expect would Brexit Party voters
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
Why did you vote REMAIN, HYUFD?
Cos Cammo told him to.
Then Tezzie told him to back her deal, so he did.
Now Bozo wants him to cheerlead for No Deal and amazingly enough that is now HY's position.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a Deal
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.
EFTA would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. If we had had a decent opposition, it would probably have been in place by now.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
But the leave vote was NOT for no deal. Therefore there is no mandate
Wrong the question was 'Do you wish to Leave the EU or Remain in the EU?' Not 'Do you want to Leave the EU but not with No Deal?'
It also wasn’t “do you wish to leave at any cost” either. The electorate did not sign a blank cheque for any mad plan.
Indeed. I accept that by implication those of us who voted leave did risk that (once Parliament triggered based on the vote at any rate) and I cannot pretend that a worst case scenario was not a risk in voting Leave, but you simply cannot add up everyone who voted leave as being behind any leave option, and dismiss those who have, whilst holding the will of those who cast that vote to be sacrosanct and immutable. Those are mutually exclusive views.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a Deal
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.
In the sense that it would stop us ending free movement from the EU and doing our own trade deals as the Leave campaign promised, in 10 years time one EU migration is under control the single market may be an option again but not now
In the sense that it would stop us ending free movement from the EU and doing our own trade deals as the Leave campaign promised, in 10 years time one EU migration is under control the single market may be an option again but not now
The Leave campaign promised we would leave with a deal!!!
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
I respect democracy and believe votes must be delivered otherwise democracy is meaningless and if one vote is ignored voters will start to refuse to accept other votes too
Why did you think voting LEAVE was wrong back in 2016?
Spare him, Sunil. He's had his psych evaluation this month.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Or an election/vote.
Only if an election/vote results in Brexit and a deal. If an election results in either No Deal or overturning a referendum before it is implemented, that will only be governing for half the country and the country will plunge further into division.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
When I voted Leave I wasn't voting for fascism.
HYUFD does not like former leavers not backing leave in all circumstances. Which is most peculiar for a former remainer now not backing remain under any circumstances.
4 people in Chez BJO
All voted Leave
None of us accept No Deal
There is no Leaver Mandate for No Deal that would require 96% of Leavers to be up for that.
Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)
Far from it, there will only be no such thing as a Tory safe seat if the Tories do not deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by the next general election
Which realistically means there is no such thing as a safe Tory seat - as I've stated for a long time Brexit will destroy the Tory party. The only question is how it dies.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
The sneaky thing to do would be to VoNC, immediately give confidence to Ken Clarke, ask for an extension, VoNC Clarke, and the give Boris Johnson confidence again.
All in an afternoon.
Fortunately, MPs aren't that smart.
The really sneaky thing would be for Clarke to Revoke. Give Boris the full 2 years to display his extensive negotiating prowess.
Revocation followed by a General Election could be tougher for the Conservatives than extension followed by a GE. What would their Brexit policy be?
There is no majority in the Commons for Revoke as the indicative votes proved
That was while the alternative option was May's deal. Views may have changed now the other option is No Deal.
The only thing the Commons has voted for is the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop, exactly as Boris is aiming for
"the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop" is a unicorn
Not if a technical solution for the Irish border is found
I will happily praise Boris if he can find such a thing in the weeks we have left. Unfortunately I don't think the EU are interested in a solution even if one is found, when they are committed to us capitulating by either accepting the WA or remaining. High risk, but they are not immune to nonsense.
Fine then Boris goes to No Deal having looked reasonable and wins the PR war
If he genuinely has a good idea on the border, he might. If it is not a good idea, then his reasonableness will not be so obvious - as with the Labour MPs who constantly flirted with the idea of backing the WA but never did so, attempting to appear reasonable (in the sense of considering an option, not saying that backing the WA is inherently reasonable) when not genuine about doing so can also backfire.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
My concern in all of this is that with the exception of Corbyn each leader wants to stop brexit completely, not just no deal
Anyone acting as a defacto leader needs to prevent no deal, but must also prevent no brexit by agreeing a deal with the EU. Anything else is just wrong for democracy
A deal was agreed. No one wanted it.
We have to start from where we are, which is a bad place. There is no mandate for no deal Brexit or for revoke. No one seriously wants to try for a different deal. So a fresh mandate is needed. It’s not good but all the other options are worse.
There was a vote
The choice was “leave” or “remain”
A mandate was given to leave
Just because people who disagree with that have tried to do everything in their power to stop it (except the thing that is actually in their power) doesn’t weaken the mandate
It was an advisory vote. Its context therefore sets its mandate. You can’t argue both that the vote must be implemented but its context ignored. That’s having your cake and eating it.
Until parliament voted for Article 50 it could legally have been ignored. Politically it would have been unwise.
Fundamentally parliament’s authority is delegated from the voters*. Parliament chose to refer a fundamental question back to the electorate. The electorate gave an instruction (“leave”) and it is up to the executive and parliament to implement that in the way it sees fit.
Unfortunately because my neighbour screwed up and drafted a really crap process we have now run out of time. Parliament either need to vote for a deal, revoke (and pay the political price) or accept we are leaving with no deal
* don’t go all Burkean on me. I am not saying individual MPs are delegates
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Or maybe allowing the people to decide between Deal, No Deal and Remain.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to e
3 years Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Or an election/vote.
Only if an election/vote results in Brexit and a deal. If an election results in either No Deal or overturning a referendum before it is implemented, that will only be governing for half the country and the country will plunge further into division.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
Boris may well be playing a three way game of Bluff- Trying to bluff the EU on the backstop, trying to bluff a deal through the HoC and/or trying to bluff a VoNC/early general election if a no deal is all he can pull off.
Problem starts when he gets nothing back from the EU and can not get an early GE. Also just maybe the voters are bluffing him: If he ended up with another hung Parliament, he would be out in 10 minutes, since the chance of winning an election outright is literally the only reason why the Conservatives are not formally splitting right now. Meanwhile his game of bluff on the GE is not under his control and his political opponents are talking and they have plans of their own to nail no deal and with it the Johnson premiership.
No deal, no "no deal", no GE- back to where we were 6 months ago and Johnson is the 7th successive Tory leader crucified by his own side.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Or maybe allowing the people to decide between Deal, No Deal and Remain.
That would still be a rerun of the referendum before it was implemented. I support being in the EU but us Remainers can't reasonably demand a second bite at the cherry when we would never have given it the other way.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
But only with a deal. You cannot conflate trying to block No Deal with trying to block Brexit simply because it suits you to do so, Leavers cannot railroad the country into a No Deal Brexit having won the campaign based on only leaving with a deal. There is no mandate for No Deal however much you try to pretend there is. The Co-Chair of the Leave Campaign has said as much.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to e
3 years Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Dial it down. The government governs for all of us not the 17m.
That can be said both ways. Blocking Brexit is clearly ruling for the 16m not all of us.
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
Or an election/vote.
to division.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
Amusing, in that sense, that the very act of voting in the Commons is through a division.
Bloody hell, I hope the Tories are at least going to reward @HYUFD with a safe seat* for his unflinching support of their bonkers plans.
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)
Far from it, there will only be no such thing as a Tory safe seat if the Tories do not deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal by the next general election
Which realistically means there is no such thing as a safe Tory seat - as I've stated for a long time Brexit will destroy the Tory party. The only question is how it dies.
Rubbish, not delivering Brexit would have destroyed the Tory Party, now the Tories are committed to Brexit Deal or No Deal they are losing fewer voters to the Brexit Party while Brexit is actually destroying Corbyn Labour now as it trails the Tories under Boris in the polls and is still losing Remainers to the LDs
It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitution
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
Whislt I would agree there is a lot of nonsense gameplaying going on to avoid using the most obvious and even logical avenues of approach for the actions that they want to take, using minor or obscure rules to frustrate or developing new precedent is not, I think, unpermissable even if it is a bad idea.
Sure. But it’s not, as Alastair was trying to present it, Parliament acting within its normal rights. It’s MPs scrabbling around for an alternative to doing what they can do by right (because they don’t have the numbers)
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
He’s not going to prorogue
He will if necessary from who I know in camp Boris
“if necessary” doing a lot of work there
To deliver Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal
Just trust me on this ok. It isn’t going to happen.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins".It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation
It's too late for that. If it was going to happen it would have been MV3 and prior to the extension. That extension fundamentally changed and hyper charged what was already a horribly divisive process. Although it did not feel like it some MPs were compromising at that point, Boris for one at MV3, but now the only compromising going on is those formerly in the middle choosing between extremes to follow.
There is not the slightest indication that there is any hope of coming back together over this. The very pitches of both sides to that effect are insulting. "We need to unite as a country. By defeating those evil remainers/Leavers!".
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.
Yes! Exactly! It takes two to tango and the hardliners on both sides are all guilty as hell for this mess. People need to swallow their pride and vote for a deal. And the EU could do their bit by compromising a bit to get a more swallowable deal for parliament.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
You're right.
However, 'advisory' wasn't what anyone campaigned on. Nor is it fathomable that you'd ask the British people to go to the voting stations for such a thing. I think this point can be dismissed - agree?
Then what was the Referendum?
Personally I feel that if the mechanism breaks and if we have recourse to things outside of it then gainsaying those things is simply the road to ruin.
I'm pretty sure that in part you agree. I'm certain that you have concluded otherwise though.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
He’s not going to prorogue
He will if necessary from who I know in camp Boris
“if necessary” doing a lot of work there
To deliver Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal
Just trust me on this ok. It isn’t going to happen.
Just trust me on this, it is, there is no way Boris or Cummings will not deliver Brexit and allow further extension past October 31st
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
Like every government does before a new session of parliament which is already overdue.
There is not the slightest indication that there is any hope of coming back together over this. The very pitches of both sides to that effect are insulting. "We need to unite as a country. By defeating those evil remainers/Leavers!".
Not quite... since the most vociferous Leavers tend to be older, 20 or 30 years should sort a lot of it.
I know people do not like that being mentioned, but it is what it is.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
Well it doesn't necessarily avoid either, but it leaves open a slight chance to avoid that binary choice, and definitely delays it.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
That's unfortunate, but we are where we are, and a whole bunch of leavers could have gotten it so much closer at the MVs and take away the opportunity for those voting it down so they can block Brexit. It takes two to tango. Yes, die hard remainers have delayed and frustrated, that's politics, but disunity and incompetence among leavers have given them opportunity, and still is.
Yes! Exactly! It takes two to tango and the hardliners on both sides are all guilty as hell for this mess. People need to swallow their pride and vote for a deal. And the EU could do their bit by compromising a bit to get a more swallowable deal for parliament.
The EU has its own politics to consider. They don't want to lose, and will happily pay a price they know we will be blamed for, just as our politicians are.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.
It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitution
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of them
I'm interested to understand why you feel that's such a bad thing @Charles?
Because you need to have an executive with the freedom to act (within its remit) as it sees fit and to be judged accordingly by the electorate.
The role of Parliament is represent the electorate in (I) approving or rejecting legislation; (ii) granting supply and authorising taxes; and (iii) generally holding the Executive to account.
Instructing the Executive to follow a specific course of action is something it was not designed to do and is outwith its powers.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
You must have better divination of the chicken entrails than me if you get no deal Brexit on 31 October 2019 as part of referendum vote in 2016. To anyone not completely one-eyed, it looks like a coup by an unelected Prime Minister without a Parliamentary majority for a prospectus no one voted for.
The only prospectus voted for was to Leave the EU, there was no question about Leaving but only with a Deal
Except most of the leavers told us that joining EFTA was a "betrayal" of the referendum. You can't have it both ways.
EFTA would have been a perfectly acceptable answer. If we had had a decent opposition, it would probably have been in place by now.
Even an arch-Remainer like me would accept EFTA/EEA. Even now.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.
The backstop was a fatal flaw. A ‘calculated risk’ people were not confident enough to take. Oh well.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
Your argument doesn’t follow
What you have said is that a case can be made to set aside the referendum
It doesn’t imply that “there is no mandate”: it implies that a politician who was brave enough should ignore the result and justify his/her decision to the voters
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.
I dare say social media does not help, but I doubt it has had that much impact - plenty of the MPs who are so infantile probably do not use any social media. Fundamentally the problem is that not enough leavers were willing to accept a non perfect Brexit, and a great many remainers would not accept any Brexit at all, with the end result that only a 'perfect' Brexit or no Brexit will end up occurring.
The one benefit of the current situation is that more of them are being honest, or closer to honest, about only being willing to entertain their perfect options. Theyr'e not quite their yet, there's still plenty of people who would theoretically vote for a deal, except in practice, or claim to not want no deal, but only support unicorns to avoid it, but they are closer.
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
That’s simply untrue as a matter of history. The well was poisoned by Leavers such as the Prime Minister. Remain-supporting MPs had no reason to support a deal that Leavers transparently hated.
By the time of the third meaningful vote, MPs outside the Conservative party had no motive given to support a manifestly-detested deal, a detestation whipped up by the likes of Boris Johnson.
Division is now inevitable either way. A vote is the least divisive route.
This is the thinking that both sides are engaged in. "It is now acceptable to have permanent division as long as my side wins". No, we need to compromise all round and come back together as a nation.
The only thing that united the country was May’s deal, but not in the way she hoped. Poor thing.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
As long as that vote doesn't end with the extremes of no deal or revoke. The only reason people could not unite around May's deal is because we have all become posturing children, polarised and infanticised by social media, unwilling to ever reach out to the other side.
I dare say social media does not help, but I doubt it has had that much impact - plenty of the MPs who are so infantile probably do not use any social media. Fundamentally the problem is that not enough leavers were willing to accept a non perfect Brexit, and a great many remainers would not accept any Brexit at all, with the end result that only a 'perfect' Brexit or no Brexit will end up occurring.
The one benefit of the current situation is that more of them are being honest, or closer to honest, about only being willing to entertain their perfect options. Theyr'e not quite their yet, there's still plenty of people who would theoretically vote for a deal, except in practice, or claim to not want no deal, but only support unicorns to avoid it, but they are closer.
I have never had more contempt for MPs of all stripes than I do now. Cromwell may have been an evil genocidal murderer, but maybe he was right about one or two things!
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
Your argument doesn’t follow
What you have said is that a case can be made to set aside the referendum
It doesn’t imply that “there is no mandate”: it implies that a politician who was brave enough should ignore the result and justify his/her decision to the voters
Given the public has been consulted once, if events have moved on it should be consulted again.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will not legislate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Bollocks. Any Leaver who claims that 17 million wanted to crash out with no deal on the back of Cummings and Banks and BoJo, is going to get a very nasty surprise..
The sort of advice that it's unwise to ignore though.
You miss the essential point. If it was advisory, and it was, it is envisaged that in some circumstances that advice should be set aside.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
That is based on the idea that "no deal" came about through unexpected external events, rather than a big chunk of parliament deliberately voting down a deal to come to a "no deal" situation they can then oppose to block Brexit.
Leavers had their chance to support the deal and pass it. Leavers in Parliament, including the current Prime Minister, deliberately sabotaged the deal on offer. In doing so, they abandoned their mandate.
The vast majority of Leavers in parliament voted for the deal, including the current Prime Minister. It was mainly voted down by Remainers trying to engineer a No Deal situation they could use as an excuse for overturning the referendum.
That’s simply untrue as a matter of history. The well was poisoned by Leavers such as the Prime Minister. Remain-supporting MPs had no reason to support a deal that Leavers transparently hated.
By the time of the third meaningful vote, MPs outside the Conservative party had no motive given to support a manifestly-detested deal, a detestation whipped up by the likes of Boris Johnson.
It is absolutely true. Had Boris Johnson been glowing in praise for the deal, Remainer MPs would have seen the light and voted for compromise? That's codswallop. They were determined to do everything they could to vote down any deal May came up with.
It feels like a very long time ago now that Leavers kept quacking on about Parliamentary sovereignty.
Parliamentary sovereign is not about parliament trying to unbalance the constitution
These things have evolved in a way that broadly works.
There is a very simple process available to Parliament if they don’t like the executive’s policy: a VONC.
Everything else is bullshit because they don’t want to follow the rules
The Fixed Term Parliaments Act gives them options. They’re taking them.
Passing a law to instruct the executive to act in a certain way is not one of them
I'm interested to understand why you feel that's such a bad thing @Charles?
Because you need to have an executive with the freedom to act (within its remit) as it sees fit and to be judged accordingly by the electorate.
The role of Parliament is represent the electorate in (I) approving or rejecting legislation; (ii) granting supply and authorising taxes; and (iii) generally holding the Executive to account.
Instructing the Executive to follow a specific course of action is something it was not designed to do and is outwith its powers.
The public elects a Parliament (well HoC), not an Executive... Parliament chooses the Executive. Parliament is sovereign and if Parliament chooses to pass a law instructing the Executive to a course of action, so be it.
I cannot see the problem with that but if you could give me an example where it would be a 'bad thing' I'd be prepared to change my view.
Unless the opposition parties are able to VONC Boris successfully they cannot stop him refusing to extend again on October 31st as Head of the Executive branch, if the Opposition parties do manage to VONC Boris successfully a general election is inevitable unless an alternative PM.can be found in 14 days
They could VONC him and then put him back in the hot seat without an election.
And he would still refuse to extend
I agree , Johnson needs a no deal, so Farage will stand his Brexit candidates down. Whatever you think of the Conservative party , they know how to stay in power.
Yes, Boris will refuse to extend again over No Deal as long as he is PM
He might not have that power
He will ate in October and will prorogue Parliament if necessary to November to ensure no further extension can be passed.
3 years after Leave won the referendum Brexit will be delivered
Proroguing Parliament? Like Charles I?
A Parliament which refuses to respect the will of the people yes, not a Parliament preventing rule by divine right
Do you not realise how ridiculous that sentence sounds? Really?
F*ck me.
Diehard Remainers would rather push us towards near civil war than respect the Leave vote, hence they refused to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement and now refuse to vote for No Deal
MPs were elected in 2017 on fresh mandates. If your football team believes that these 'diehard remainers' are somehow not representing their constituents then we should have an election.
Trying to force Brexit through before an election means you aren't really confident it is the will of the people anyway.
Frit.
Even Corbyn promised to deliver Brexit in GE17
Yes, but not at any cost. Your partisanship is blinding you from reality. It really is.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
No diehard Remainers are frit of democracy and the 17 million who voted Leave
Bollocks. Any Leaver who claims that 17 million wanted to crash out with no deal on the back of Cummings and Banks and BoJo, is going to get a very nasty surprise..
Comments
Not ruling out prorogation is because it’s a stupid question. It’s a made up thing by the media - of course the government doesn’t - it shouldn’t - opine on every hypothetical otherwise they’d get nothing done
If - and I don’t believe it will - becomes a real thing then the government will propose it and we’ll have the debate then.
Boris is frit. Your party is frit. You are frit.
Intention can be very important indeed, but the practical consequences of their actions may be that we do not leave the EU at all. I know you think we still will, and that might be so, but they have permitted the risk that we dso not. Now some few of them may think that acceptable, better no Brexit than a bad Brexit, but will all of them? I doubt it, and they will whinge to high heaven to avoid facing the truth that their votes against the WA may contribute to us not leaving, just as much as any die hard remainer.
All the opposition groups today coming to an agreement shows some intent.
However I just do not see it happening.
If Johnson wants a no deal, it is hard to see parliament stopping him.
As I do not think there are the numbers.
When MPs such as Morgan and Rudd, join his cabinet , it gives a sense of direction.
"Eliza simulated conversation by using a 'pattern matching' and substitution methodology that gave users an illusion of understanding on the part of the program, but had no built in framework for contextualizing events"
However Leave won and that vote must be delivered, otherwise if Corbyn wins the next general election (with a majority or minority Government) I and other Tories will refuse to accept him as a legitimate PM, as I expect would Brexit Party voters
(*Though maybe someone should tell him if they persue their bonkers plans there will be no such thing as a safe Tory seat.)
Riiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhhttttttt
The only way this issue is solved is by having Brexit and a deal.
What are those circumstances? Surely it is when events have moved so differently from prior expectations that it is very doubtful that advice would have been given.
We are in exactly that position. Few seriously argue that a Leave campaign based around no deal would have won.
So there is no mandate.
Then Tezzie told him to back her deal, so he did.
Now Bozo wants him to cheerlead for No Deal and amazingly enough that is now HY's position.
Larry the Cat....
Stupid squad...
Larry the Cat "jeez"
All voted Leave
None of us accept No Deal
There is no Leaver Mandate for No Deal that would require 96% of Leavers to be up for that.
No chance
Fundamentally parliament’s authority is delegated from the voters*. Parliament chose to refer a fundamental question back to the electorate. The electorate gave an instruction (“leave”) and it is up to the executive and parliament to implement that in the way it sees fit.
Unfortunately because my neighbour screwed up and drafted a really crap process we have now run out of time. Parliament either need to vote for a deal, revoke (and pay the political price) or accept we are leaving with no deal
* don’t go all Burkean on me. I am not saying individual MPs are delegates
Problem starts when he gets nothing back from the EU and can not get an early GE. Also just maybe the voters are bluffing him: If he ended up with another hung Parliament, he would be out in 10 minutes, since the chance of winning an election outright is literally the only reason why the Conservatives are not formally splitting right now. Meanwhile his game of bluff on the GE is not under his control and his political opponents are talking and they have plans of their own to nail no deal and with it the Johnson premiership.
No deal, no "no deal", no GE- back to where we were 6 months ago and Johnson is the 7th successive Tory leader crucified by his own side.
There is not the slightest indication that there is any hope of coming back together over this. The very pitches of both sides to that effect are insulting. "We need to unite as a country. By defeating those evil remainers/Leavers!".
I believe in the separation of powers
However, 'advisory' wasn't what anyone campaigned on. Nor is it fathomable that you'd ask the British people to go to the voting stations for such a thing. I think this point can be dismissed - agree?
Then what was the Referendum?
Personally I feel that if the mechanism breaks and if we have recourse to things outside of it then gainsaying those things is simply the road to ruin.
I'm pretty sure that in part you agree. I'm certain that you have concluded otherwise though.
Leave won, leave wins.
The only route now that avoids the extremes of no deal or flat revoke is a vote.
I know people do not like that being mentioned, but it is what it is.
Heart of stone etc.....
The role of Parliament is represent the electorate in (I) approving or rejecting legislation; (ii) granting supply and authorising taxes; and (iii) generally holding the Executive to account.
Instructing the Executive to follow a specific course of action is something it was not designed to do and is outwith its powers.
What you have said is that a case can be made to set aside the referendum
It doesn’t imply that “there is no mandate”: it implies that a politician who was brave enough should ignore the result and justify his/her decision to the voters
The one benefit of the current situation is that more of them are being honest, or closer to honest, about only being willing to entertain their perfect options. Theyr'e not quite their yet, there's still plenty of people who would theoretically vote for a deal, except in practice, or claim to not want no deal, but only support unicorns to avoid it, but they are closer.
By the time of the third meaningful vote, MPs outside the Conservative party had no motive given to support a manifestly-detested deal, a detestation whipped up by the likes of Boris Johnson.
I cannot see the problem with that but if you could give me an example where it would be a 'bad thing' I'd be prepared to change my view.