politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How special is special? The US-UK relationship

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The people driving Brexit are those around Johnson and Farage who have strong links with the people around Trump. If money talks, it's in significant part US money talking.

Nigelb said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

tlg86 said:

I heard Jo Swinson on Sky News this morning. I reckon she’s trying to hide her Scottish accent.

You would be hard pushed to know she was born in Scotland, desperate to show how English she really is just like the anti Scottish English immigrants on here, Carlotta, TGOHF.

Uni in London, then worked in Yorkshire, plus her husband is English. Does things to accents, even the strongest.

Only if you want it to, I spent many years in England and other countries around the world and have not changed my accent one bit.

Why are we not surprised ?

Would you refuse to speak French if in France ?
The principle is exactly the same.

I would try to speak French but it would not be with a French accent unless a miracle happened.
Changing your accent is for losers, insecure people who have to meld into the surroundings and crawlers who will do anything to try and be something.
PS: However my wife born in same town as myself speaks the Queens English and has a very soft accent. As you already guessed mine is broad and loud.

Mr. Catman, I only learned French up to GCSE. Wasn't too fond of it, although mostly the teachers weren't bad. Preferred German (and liked the teacher more).

FF43 said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The people driving Brexit are those around Johnson and Farage who have strong links with the people around Trump. If money talks, it's in significant part US money talking.

Im losing track of which conspiracy theory is now current. Give it a month and the green lizards will be taking over.

malcolmg said:

Nigelb said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

tlg86 said:

I heard Jo Swinson on Sky News this morning. I reckon she’s trying to hide her Scottish accent.

You would be hard pushed to know she was born in Scotland, desperate to show how English she really is just like the anti Scottish English immigrants on here, Carlotta, TGOHF.

Uni in London, then worked in Yorkshire, plus her husband is English. Does things to accents, even the strongest.

Only if you want it to, I spent many years in England and other countries around the world and have not changed my accent one bit.

Why are we not surprised ?

Would you refuse to speak French if in France ?
The principle is exactly the same.

I would try to speak French but it would not be with a French accent unless a miracle happened.
Changing your accent is for losers, insecure people who have to meld into the surroundings and crawlers who will do anything to try and be something.

In my experience, while there is an element of melding into the surroundings, it's unintentional. Just happens.

King Cole, it's interesting that it happens faster or more slowly for differing people, though. The plasticity of accent seems highly variable.

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

tlg86 said:

I heard Jo Swinson on Sky News this morning. I reckon she’s trying to hide her Scottish accent.

You would be hard pushed to know she was born in Scotland, desperate to show how English she really is just like the anti Scottish English immigrants on here, Carlotta, TGOHF.

Uni in London, then worked in Yorkshire, plus her husband is English. Does things to accents, even the strongest.

Only if you want it to, I spent many years in England and other countries around the world and have not changed my accent one bit.

Is your wife Scots? If so, you possibly refreshed your accent at home. My wife's accent is much more noticeable after we've spent a few days with her brother and his family.

Her accent is much softer than mine, and as other post she was born in same town as me , our first encounter was when I pulled her pigtails whilst in local hall at first local showing of Dr No. She did go live in Nottingham for some years. But destiny brought her back.

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

Nigelb said:

malcolmg said:

OldKingCole said:

malcolmg said:

tlg86 said:

I heard Jo Swinson on Sky News this morning. I reckon she’s trying to hide her Scottish accent.

You would be hard pushed to know she was born in Scotland, desperate to show how English she really is just like the anti Scottish English immigrants on here, Carlotta, TGOHF.

Uni in London, then worked in Yorkshire, plus her husband is English. Does things to accents, even the strongest.

Only if you want it to, I spent many years in England and other countries around the world and have not changed my accent one bit.

Why are we not surprised ?

Would you refuse to speak French if in France ?
The principle is exactly the same.

I would try to speak French but it would not be with a French accent unless a miracle happened.
Changing your accent is for losers, insecure people who have to meld into the surroundings and crawlers who will do anything to try and be something.

In my experience, while there is an element of melding into the surroundings, it's unintentional. Just happens.

Lots of people are scared to stand out so take easy option and meld in as you say.

Norman Lamb to stand down for the Lib Dems. I get the impression that he's got fed up with Brexit dominating everything and his passions of mental health and social care not getting a look in.

I'm sure the Cons will pile into North Norfolk but It seems to me the Lib Dems are properly bedded in there and I'd expect the right LD candidate to hold comfortably.

DavidL said:

Our relationship with the US is important to this country but I agree that it is unwise to be sentimental or emotional about it. We still work very closely with the US on intelligence matters and with GCHQ have a major role to play. NATO is a lot less important now than it has been for most of the post war period and is of little interest to US Presidents going forward. Our trade with the US is huge and the UK remains the largest source of private sector investment in the US as they are here. The US international finance houses are a very important part of London's dominance.

Generally speaking we see the world in a similar way but that does not mean that we agree about everything. With this particular President things are more difficult whether it is recognising Jerusalem as Israel's capital, the withdrawal from the Iran deal or his frankly bizarre tariffs policy but things were pretty cool under Obama too who was always more focused on the Pacific than the Atlantic and who did a lot to wind down NATO and the US commitment to it.

As I have said before going forward Europe is going to become an increasingly irrelevant backwater to world affairs and any US President's attention is going to be elsewhere. We really should not angst about this. Backwaters can be very pleasant places to live and are generally a lot more peaceful.

Certainly people spend far too much time getting misty eyed or moaning about the special relationship, about us punching above our weight or being so called irrelevant.

My rule of thumb is to ignore both those who are overly nostalgic and WW2 obsessed, and those who are super pessimistic and obsessed with how we are supposedly irrelevant now because we arent bestriding the earth like a colossus.

The two need each other and most people dont fit that pattern- in my experience you're more likely to hear someone mosn about the WW2 nostalgic fantasists than hear a fantasist, and more likely to hear someone modem about those think we are nothing then encounter someone who thinks that.

They do exist, we see both on here, but its just silly. That we are not super powerful does not mean we are nothing and we dont need to angst about it or overly bemoan that.

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

https://twitter.com/polhomeeditor/status/1166247528892981248?s=21

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Cameron was as “bad” as Obama.
He was fascinatingly uncurious about the world outside the Chipping Norton - Westminster corridor, save perhaps North Cornwall.

StuartDickson said:

Next Scottish FIrst Minister
- to succeed Nicola Sturgeon, either as FM, or Head of Government in independent state

Ruth Davidson 5/1
Richard Leonard 6/1
Derek Mackay 10/1
Keith Brown 12/1
Kate Forbes 12/1
Humza Yousaf 12/1
Mhairi Black 16/1
Angus Robertson 16/1
Shona Robison 16/1
John Swinney 16/1
Stewart Hosie 20/1
Michael Matheson 20/1
Shirley-Anne Somerville 20/1
many other names listed, both SNP and others, at longer prices

(Coral; Ladbrokes)

Some of the names on here are just daft at such short prices, not least prime turkey Ruthie.

This is going to be between Mackay and A.N.Other. Who Mr or Mrs Other might be is a bit of a mystery. Leonard is not even going to be SLab leader at the next Scottish GE, and I’d be surprised if Ruthie is still around either. The most tempting Unionist prices are:

Anas Sarwar (SLab) at 100/1
Neil Findlay (SLab) at 100/1
Willie Rennie (SLD) at 100/1

All of those have got to be worth a speculative price of a pint, surely?

I’d stick a tenner on Mackay if I thought Sturgeon was on the brink of retirement. However, she isn’t.

Why are Ruth’s odds any different to the Tories getting a majority at Holyrood (saving weight of money / risk management etc)?

The government and HS2 knew that the new high speed railway was over budget and was probably behind schedule years ago, documents seen by the BBC show.

Crucially, the documents were written in 2016, before MPs had signed-off the first phase of the project.

It is evidence that both the public and Parliament were not given the full picture about the true cost.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49450297

tpfkar said:

Norman Lamb to stand down for the Lib Dems. I get the impression that he's got fed up with Brexit dominating everything and his passions of mental health and social care not getting a look in.

I'm sure the Cons will pile into North Norfolk but It seems to me the Lib Dems are properly bedded in there and I'd expect the right LD candidate to hold comfortably.

I'd assumed any place that held on in 2015 would be safe as houses but of course several of those were lost in 2017. Wouldn't bet against the LDs there now though.

On the LDs if there is a snap election will they let Lloyd stand under their banner does anyone know?

HYUFD said:

No gratitude in the article either for the US loans and supplies which helped keep us going in WW2 and the servicemen who died alongside ours liberating Europe from the Nazis and Fascism not for the vast US military presence in western Europe which kept the threat of the Soviet Union at bay or indeed still helps deter Putin

Britain paid - handsomely - for those loans. The US drove a hard bargain. They were not a gift. Britain benefited from the Marshall Plan of course, a remarkable act by the US but again one done because the US had a far-sighted view of its long-term interests. Ditto re its defence commitments. None of this was done because of some particular love for Britain.

tpfkar said:

Norman Lamb to stand down for the Lib Dems. I get the impression that he's got fed up with Brexit dominating everything and his passions of mental health and social care not getting a look in.

I'm sure the Cons will pile into North Norfolk but It seems to me the Lib Dems are properly bedded in there and I'd expect the right LD candidate to hold comfortably.

That's a shame. When you say "the right LD candidate", do you mean one that isn't necessarily opposed to Brexit?

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

How is that different from a normal vote?

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The Russians through Trump....

kle4 said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

How is that different from a normal vote?

Normal vote: assess issues from competing candidates, choose candidate whose policies most closely aligns with your own views.
Playground vote: don't like the colour of the shirt of one candidate, vote for other candidate.

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

Charles said:

StuartDickson said:

Next Scottish FIrst Minister
- to succeed Nicola Sturgeon, either as FM, or Head of Government in independent state

Ruth Davidson 5/1
Richard Leonard 6/1
Derek Mackay 10/1
Keith Brown 12/1
Kate Forbes 12/1
Humza Yousaf 12/1
Mhairi Black 16/1
Angus Robertson 16/1
Shona Robison 16/1
John Swinney 16/1
Stewart Hosie 20/1
Michael Matheson 20/1
Shirley-Anne Somerville 20/1
many other names listed, both SNP and others, at longer prices

(Coral; Ladbrokes)

Some of the names on here are just daft at such short prices, not least prime turkey Ruthie.

This is going to be between Mackay and A.N.Other. Who Mr or Mrs Other might be is a bit of a mystery. Leonard is not even going to be SLab leader at the next Scottish GE, and I’d be surprised if Ruthie is still around either. The most tempting Unionist prices are:

Anas Sarwar (SLab) at 100/1
Neil Findlay (SLab) at 100/1
Willie Rennie (SLD) at 100/1

All of those have got to be worth a speculative price of a pint, surely?

I’d stick a tenner on Mackay if I thought Sturgeon was on the brink of retirement. However, she isn’t.

Why are Ruth’s odds any different to the Tories getting a majority at Holyrood (saving weight of money / risk management etc)?

No Alex Salmond odds?

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

Gardenwalker said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Cameron was as “bad” as Obama.
He was fascinatingly uncurious about the world outside the Chipping Norton - Westminster corridor, save perhaps North Cornwall.

Perhaps so.

But that didn't stop his desire to meddle in the Middle East or his eagerness to borrow billions more each year to give to other countries.

Cyclefree said:

HYUFD said:

No gratitude in the article either for the US loans and supplies which helped keep us going in WW2 and the servicemen who died alongside ours liberating Europe from the Nazis and Fascism not for the vast US military presence in western Europe which kept the threat of the Soviet Union at bay or indeed still helps deter Putin

Britain paid - handsomely - for those loans. The US drove a hard bargain. They were not a gift. Britain benefited from the Marshall Plan of course, a remarkable act by the US but again one done because the US had a far-sighted view of its long-term interests. Ditto re its defence commitments. None of this was done because of some particular love for Britain.

The Morgenthau plan was discussed in a Michael Portillo programme on Radio 4 - Britain failed to get Roosevelt or Truman to set it aside and it was only the internal American critics of the de-industrialisation of Germany out of fear they would become communists that led to the Marshall plan - Churchill failed to influence America in this regard - The US is and always will be the last best hope for liberal democracy but the UK political class has totally failed to find a way of relating to the USA that isn't tied up with some sort of psychological neediness rather than good cold rational self-interest. We should treat the US like we do France.

CarlottaVance said:

Lovely story over the Grenada invasion.

Buckingham Palace phones Downing St “The Queen will see Mrs Thatcher” “We’re very sorry, but Mrs Thatcher’s diary is full today” “You don’t understand. The Queen WILL see Mrs Thatcher”

Thatcher drops everything and goes haring over to the palace.

Shown into the presence, the Queen does not sit down, so neither can Thatcher. The Queen is used to standing for long stretches.

The Queen would like to understand how a country of which she is head of state has been invaded by Thatcher’s best mate and the Queen finds out about it from Radio 4.

A severely chastened and absolutely mortified Thatcher returns to Downing St and has Reagan- who is in California woken up. “Yes Margaret” “But Margaret” is about all he’s able to say. After she hangs up on him he shakes his head and says “What a woman!”.

A completely unverifiable story of course. My favourite bit of that episode was the front cover of Punch portraying Reagan as Rett Butler telling a glum looking Margaret Thatcher - "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

Alanbrooke said:

OldKingCole said:

Alanbrooke said:

NickPalmer said:

rcs1000 said:

I don't think the article says that at all.

I think the article merely points out the US will do what the US thinks is best for the US. And that we - or the South Koreans or Mexicans or Canadians - are deluded if we think they will put our interests first.

I agree, it's a good healthy article. Also, in dealing with Trump it's very obvious that what he likes is tough negotiators - Putin, Kim, Xi - whom he can alternately shout at and flatter until they reach a deal: he really does think that "The Art of the Deal" can be transferred to global politics.

If Britain had a clear agenda of what we wanted from the US and put it flatly and unambiguously - these are our demands, these are what we can give you - I think he'd respect that and be up for it. If we just fawn on him he'll like it but he'll take us to the cleaners.

Its the same approach with the EU, nobody fights the UK corner nd we instead of kidding ourselves about a "special relationship" we kid ourselves about "influence". We just need so mean nasty bastards who put our own voters first and who frankly will earn more respect for the UK.

You should stop reading the Express and listen to people who've been to the meetings. Britains voice was welcomed and appreciated, until now.

I should listen to people with a vested interest in saying how good they are ?

I think if theres one thing weve seen in the last 3 years its just hoiw dire the UK has been at protecting its interests.over the years.

It’s managed to kick the can despite a vote to damage the UK’s interests. We may look back on this as the British state’s finest hour.

OldKingCole said:

MarqueeMark said:

Bad news, Remoaners. In an inversion of the accepted notion, you're all doomed to die before optimistic Leavers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49447685

No, no, we're hopeful that sense will eventually prevail and we won't actually Leave. Or if we do, that we'll Return.

Exactly. In fact that's the most exasperating aspect of the whole thing. Whatever happens we are going to end up in the EU. It's just a question of how much treasure we squander in the process.

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

You felt it was important to humiliate Cameron, and you seem to think the EU was going a good enough job of that.

MarqueeMark said:

Bad news, Remoaners. In an inversion of the accepted notion, you're all doomed to die before optimistic Leavers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49447685

I think it's undeniably true that Leave voters were more likely to die sooner than Remain voters on average.

Labour overall majority is currently at 18 on Betfair. It may be odds against but it's not a 17/1 shot and I've just taken some of that.

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

Ah, I am still waiting to hear anyone articulate how leaving the EU is in anyone's interests beyond emotional claptrap. I remember asking you several times to do so, and you never attempted . Please explain your rationale .

Mr. G, when I spoke German (or French) I deliberately tried to make my voice fit as much as possible. That might be considered an accent, but when speaking German I can't see the problem with attempting to sound German...

Recidivist said:

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Bad news, Remoaners. In an inversion of the accepted notion, you're all doomed to die before optimistic Leavers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49447685

I think it's undeniably true that Leave voters were more likely to die sooner than Remain voters on average.

It's best not to mention it though. It's a really salient fact of course - leavers are not only losing the argument but even the ones that stick to their guns are not going to be around for long. But to bring it up is just upsetting for them, so let's not do that.

Personally, and at my age experiencing the death of family and friends, it disrespects life itself by trying to make political points out of the death of anyone

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

You had a consequence-free vote. Such luxury!

sipping my margherita on the verandah as I spend the profits of my blood diamonds :-)

you should give it a go. :-)

Alanbrooke said:

SouthamObserver said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

You had a consequence-free vote. Such luxury!

sipping my margherita on the verandah as I spend the profits of my blood diamonds :-)

you should give it a go. :-)

If only, but I can't get the passports for me or my family.

Benpointer said:

MarqueeMark said:

Bad news, Remoaners. In an inversion of the accepted notion, you're all doomed to die before optimistic Leavers:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-49447685

I think it's undeniably true that Leave voters were more likely to die sooner than Remain voters on average.

Yes, obviously age is the major factor, but lower social class, lower education and obesity are all independently associated with both Leave voting and mortality.

I dont find Leavers very optomistic either, more fearful and pessimistic about the outside world.

Mr. Meeks, depressingly, I agree with you.

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The people driving Brexit are those around Johnson and Farage who have strong links with the people around Trump. If money talks, it's in significant part US money talking.

Im losing track of which conspiracy theory is now current. Give it a month and the green lizards will be taking over.

It's easy to be flippant I doubt anyone believes that there is any sinister hand pulling the strings on Brexit. Nobody really believes that Putin or Trump are "driving" Brexit. It's a straw man argument.

It would be equally naive not to recognise that both Putin and Trump are both actively backing Brexit for their own political purposes. There is nothing that says that Trump and Putin can't both want the same outcome for Brexit albeit for different reasons.

Nigelb said:

StuartDickson said:

tlg86 said:

I heard Jo Swinson on Sky News this morning. I reckon she’s trying to hide her Scottish accent.

There is certainly something very strange going on there. Luckily for the Dim Libs, BoZo and the Cold Warrior are even weirder.

A side effect of Thatcher style voice coaching, perhaps ?

I don't think she is trying to hide her Scottish accent, one which is generally regarded positively in England, so much as trying to soften her speaking style. There is a certain sexism about womens accents, being seen as shrewish or strident rather than forceful.

eek said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Labour overall majority is currently at 18 on Betfair. It may be odds against but it's not a 17/1 shot and I've just taken some of that.

I don't think it's possible for Labour to win a majority now they've lost Scotland.

The SNP surge is one reason why we are in the mess we are in.

The SNP surge was down to the mess Labour was in as well, Scottish Labour regional team are even more crap than HQ.

OllyT said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The people driving Brexit are those around Johnson and Farage who have strong links with the people around Trump. If money talks, it's in significant part US money talking.

Im losing track of which conspiracy theory is now current. Give it a month and the green lizards will be taking over.

It's easy to be flippant I doubt anyone believes that there is any sinister hand pulling the strings on Brexit. Nobody really believes that Putin or Trump are "driving" Brexit. It's a straw man argument.

It would be equally naive not to recognise that both Putin and Trump are both actively backing Brexit for their own political purposes. There is nothing that says that Trump and Putin can't both want the same outcome for Brexit albeit for different reasons.

I can quite happily recognise that Trump and Putin have their own interests in Brexit, But so do Merkel and Macron and Tusk. At the end of the day I dont care which country thinks what, this is an issue for us to sort out ourselves.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alanbrooke said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

Ah, I am still waiting to hear anyone articulate how leaving the EU is in anyone's interests beyond emotional claptrap. I remember asking you several times to do so, and you never attempted . Please explain your rationale .

I did so several times, youre just not a good listener.

Nope, you didn't, please try harder, or just admit what we all know, that it is emotional, irrational nonsense, built on lies that will benefit no-one beyond a small cabal of politicians, journalist/polemicists and hedge fund owners. Ordinary people will only suffer, but you probably don't care, because your own personal circumstances indicate to you that you will not.

Is this that crap english education thing coming through ?

OllyT said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

Alanbrooke said:

FF43 said:

There's a US special relationship for Brexit, which is the main point of interest right now. Brexit at its core is an ideological project to move the UK away from European social democracy and international multilateralism into an irredentist US-led Conservative sphere. There is a lot of US money going into this project, which is also backed by those close to Trump. The US FTA is important to this project for its symbolism and because the incompatibility of US rules with EU ones makes it harder for a future government to switch back to an EU sphere.

It isn't a vision that much shared outside Johnson's coterie. Voters like their social protections, lifestyles and jobs too much.

It's the americans now ?

I thought it was the Russians driving Brexit.

The people driving Brexit are those around Johnson and Farage who have strong links with the people around Trump. If money talks, it's in significant part US money talking.

Im losing track of which conspiracy theory is now current. Give it a month and the green lizards will be taking over.

It's easy to be flippant I doubt anyone believes that there is any sinister hand pulling the strings on Brexit. Nobody really believes that Putin or Trump are "driving" Brexit. It's a straw man argument.

It would be equally naive not to recognise that both Putin and Trump are both actively backing Brexit for their own political purposes. There is nothing that says that Trump and Putin can't both want the same outcome for Brexit albeit for different reasons.

Putin and Trump are backing different sectors of the Leave vote. Putin rather supports the protectionist nationalists, Trump the atlantacist, open market bootlickers.

In time the clash between these two Leave tribes is going to emerge. At ppresent each thinks itself in the driving seat.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

Ah, I am still waiting to hear anyone articulate how leaving the EU is in anyone's interests beyond emotional claptrap. I remember asking you several times to do so, and you never attempted . Please explain your rationale .

There is no sense in Brexit other than respecting the referendum result

I wish we were not in this position and were it easy I would accept revoke

But we are where we are and we do need to leave

no-deal does not "respect" anything. I am not sure that a small majority on a referendum based on immoral emotionally bankrupt arguments, which was influenced by a hostile foreign power and led and manipulated by liars and racists should be respected anyone than if 52% voted in favour of eating their first born.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

TOPPING said:

You'd have to be pretty thick not to understand that when we spoke to the US it was helpful to have the close ear of and some influence over the EU and when we spoke to the EU it was helpful to have the close ear of and perhaps some influence over the US.

Now sadly about to be no more.

nostalgia - that rather went out the door with Iraq and then Obama.

Well for better or for worse Dave did get Obama to give him a hand with EUref.

I think that was what decided me to definitively vote Leave.

I'm sure you weren't alone. The EU ref was an occasion for people to ignore rational thinking and vote based upon gut instincts and whim. A playground vote.

It was a vote where quite clearly the PM had lost touch with a large slice of the electorate.

As for rational thinking if both the EU and US are saying we should stay in a system that suits them, shouldnt we ask why ? And whats in it for us ?

Thats the argument Remain proved incapable of making to any convincing level.

In this, and your other posts, you are painting a compelling picture of why the UK should be like North Korea.

I don't buy it, however.

well now youre veering off to sillydom.

I would simple say what I have said numerous times. People voted for what they judged as in their own best interests.

If I was in your shoes in 2016 I would have voted Remain, but the issues I see impact my family and community are different to yours so I voted to Leave.

Nothing I saw in the campaign suggested staying in the EU would address the things which I felt were important.

Ah, I am still waiting to hear anyone articulate how leaving the EU is in anyone's interests beyond emotional claptrap. I remember asking you several times to do so, and you never attempted . Please explain your rationale .

There is no sense in Brexit other than respecting the referendum result

I wish we were not in this position and were it easy I would accept revoke

But we are where we are and we do need to leave

no-deal does not "respect" anything. I am not sure that a small majority on a referendum based on immoral emotionally bankrupt arguments, which was influenced by a hostile foreign power and led and manipulated by liars and racists should be respected anyone than if 52% voted in favour of eating their first born.

anymore, not anyone!