politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Red Letter Day. Jeremy Corbyn’s chances of being next Prime Mi
Comments
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No.williamglenn said:
For the record, if the EU say, "This could be a solution, but we'll need to work on the details during the transition period," would you support ratifying the WA with the backstop?HYUFD said:
I am fully behind the Brexit policy of trying to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with a technical solutionTOPPING said:
Surely the Tories have lost your vote given you vehemently disagree with their flagship Brexit policy?HYUFD said:
A 9% Tory lead with Yougov and a 42% Tory voteshare with Kantar this week suggests otherwiseGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
As long as the backstop is legally-binding I oppose it. But I suspect it could be enough for Parliament to ratify it and I could lose my bets in that scenario.0 -
I always supported the WA but there is only a majority in Parliament for the Withdrawal Agreement minus the backstop as the Brady amendment showed, so unless a technical solution for the Irish border as Boris proposes replaces the backstop the Withdrawal Agreement will not pass the Commons in its current form having already failed to do so 3 timeswilliamglenn said:
For the record, if the EU say, "This could be a solution, but we'll need to work on the details during the transition period," would you support ratifying the WA with the backstop?HYUFD said:
I am fully behind the Brexit policy of trying to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with a technical solutionTOPPING said:
Surely the Tories have lost your vote given you vehemently disagree with their flagship Brexit policy?HYUFD said:
A 9% Tory lead with Yougov and a 42% Tory voteshare with Kantar this week suggests otherwiseGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
Positive signs from Macron and Merkel this weekTOPPING said:
That is a reasonable position to hold. I am hopeful but sceptical about such a technical solution but we shall see. It's that or the backstop.HYUFD said:
I am fully behind the Brexit policy of trying to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with a technical solutionTOPPING said:
Surely the Tories have lost your vote given you vehemently disagree with their flagship Brexit policy?HYUFD said:
A 9% Tory lead with Yougov and a 42% Tory voteshare with Kantar this week suggests otherwiseGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
So deluded.HYUFD said:
Positive signs from Macron and Merkel this weekTOPPING said:
That is a reasonable position to hold. I am hopeful but sceptical about such a technical solution but we shall see. It's that or the backstop.HYUFD said:
I am fully behind the Brexit policy of trying to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with a technical solutionTOPPING said:
Surely the Tories have lost your vote given you vehemently disagree with their flagship Brexit policy?HYUFD said:
A 9% Tory lead with Yougov and a 42% Tory voteshare with Kantar this week suggests otherwiseGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
Yes, it looks like Boris could sell ice to an eskimo while sadly May could not sell water to a nomad in the desertPulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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Could someone please outline the details of the "technical solution" Boris is supposedly proposing?0
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I salute your indefatiguabilityPhilip_Thompson said:
Couldn't find a Tweet to say that?Scott_P said:
ROFLPhilip_Thompson said:Back before the EU clarified what they meant by the backstop and how unacceptable that was to Britain.
Careful. Spin any harder you're going to hurt yourself
Things are going exactly as I said they would for the past 12 months. I should rename myself The Oracle
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But, of course, Boris was instrumental in poisoning the MPs' minds against it, so we can never really compare those two in isolation.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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Boris could've blamed it on the dog.williamglenn said:
Marking his territory? If he literally pissed in the corner you'd probably say it was a diplomatic triumph.HYUFD said:
Just Boris marking his territory and Macron does not look too fussedwilliamglenn said:
https://youtu.be/ANjhZTQQASM0 -
Brexit is still completely abstract in people’s minds. There is no saying what will happen to the polls if it ever happens.
We know the Brexit Party will crucify any deal, backstop or no backstop.
The current polling therefore tells us no useful information about any future election.0 -
I think someone on here commented recently that May couldn't sell fresh water in the Sahara. Cruel but true. Boris may not succeed but at least he is having a proper go.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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Stop being so negative. We can do it!dixiedean said:Could someone please outline the details of the "technical solution" Boris is supposedly proposing?
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And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
That has always been the position.Philip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
What has he actually done?DavidL said:
I think someone on here commented recently that May couldn't sell fresh water in the Sahara. Cruel but true. Boris may not succeed but at least he is having a proper go.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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It's up 1.3c against the dollar today. It's quite a big move and I think it must be politically driven since there has been very little of substance economically other than some pretty poor borrowing figures.noneoftheabove said:
What rate was it when he took over? How is it doing against the dollar? Or even what rate was it before his signature policy of Brexit became likely???DavidL said:It would appear that the markets rather like whatever Boris is doing. Sterling up more than 1% today, back to over E1.10 again.
Of course there will be days when it moves in opposite directions to the trend.0 -
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.0 -
They don't exist. What's more, even if they did exist, it'd need a year minimum of extensions to agree them - no chance.dixiedean said:Could someone please outline the details of the "technical solution" Boris is supposedly proposing?
This whole process is a charade, both from Johnson and Macron/Merkel.0 -
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.0 -
Other than look positive, god knows.Gallowgate said:
What has he actually done?DavidL said:
I think someone on here commented recently that May couldn't sell fresh water in the Sahara. Cruel but true. Boris may not succeed but at least he is having a proper go.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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I have gone through a journey with HYUFD's posts. Originally I wondered how anyone could be so infatuated with any political leader, let alone one so monumentally unsuited to any leadership, then I started to find them insulting to the intelligence of other PB followers, then I started to find it funny, and now I just feel sorry for him.Gallowgate said:
So deluded.HYUFD said:
Positive signs from Macron and Merkel this weekTOPPING said:
That is a reasonable position to hold. I am hopeful but sceptical about such a technical solution but we shall see. It's that or the backstop.HYUFD said:
I am fully behind the Brexit policy of trying to remove the backstop from the Withdrawal Agreement and replace it with a technical solutionTOPPING said:
Surely the Tories have lost your vote given you vehemently disagree with their flagship Brexit policy?HYUFD said:
A 9% Tory lead with Yougov and a 42% Tory voteshare with Kantar this week suggests otherwiseGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.1 -
In which case Boris is trying to sell plots of land on the moon to the Dragons of Dragon's Den. He's giving it a good spin, but everyone knows he has nothing of value on offer.DavidL said:
I think someone on here commented recently that May couldn't sell fresh water in the Sahara. Cruel but true. Boris may not succeed but at least he is having a proper go.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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They are written on the back of a fag packet, and therefore unavailable.dixiedean said:Could someone please outline the details of the "technical solution" Boris is supposedly proposing?
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Andrew said:
They don't exist. What's more, even if they did exist, it'd need a year minimum of extensions to agree them - no chance.dixiedean said:Could someone please outline the details of the "technical solution" Boris is supposedly proposing?
This whole process is a charade, both from Johnson and Macron/Merkel.
Drop the backstop, agree a transition and outline of solution with details to be confirmed during transition. Problem solved.
Best case, this is all resolved during transition.
Worst case, back to no deal scenario at end of transition rather than in under 10 weeks time.
Win/win.0 -
Merkel’s position is to change the PD to have workable and agreed plans in place immediately so that the backstop is no longer ever needed.Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
They haven’t said anything about removing it from the WA.0 -
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.0 -
Depends on how much the other side also doesn't want no deal. Both sides want to find a way here. Its the solution that's tricky. How do you have unsupervised and untrammeled access to the SM without regulatory alignment? I really don't know. Maybe, given that we start off with perfect alignment undertakings that any changes will be discussed with the option of ending SM/EU access if they are unacceptable?eristdoof said:
In which case Boris is trying to sell plots of land on the moon to the Dragons of Dragon's Den. He's giving it a good spin, but everyone knows he has nothing of value on offer.DavidL said:
I think someone on here commented recently that May couldn't sell fresh water in the Sahara. Cruel but true. Boris may not succeed but at least he is having a proper go.Pulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.2 -
There are many beautiful places up here in the North East, I recommend you stay longer.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.
0 -
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-494270070 -
Philip_Thompson said:
Drop the backstop, agree a transition …..
They're not going to drop the backstop without a fully-detailed and agreed alternative.
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We'll see ...Andrew said:Philip_Thompson said:
Drop the backstop, agree a transition …..
They're not going to drop the backstop without a fully-detailed and agreed alternative.
A face-saving backstopless agreement is better than a backstopless no deal.1 -
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-494270070 -
Durham cathedral is one of the finest buildings in the country. It would comfortably be in my top ten.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.0 -
Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?0 -
We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.logical_song said:
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427007
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner.0 -
No, the Irish Sea Border wouldn't require a backstop, so that problem vanishes. Now all Boris needs to do is convince the very reasonable DUP Mps who are providing his tiny majority.RobD said:0 -
Like 2016. Blame Gove.....Philip_Thompson said:
We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.logical_song said:
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427007
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner.0 -
DelusionalPhilip_Thompson said:
We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.logical_song said:
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427007
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner.0 -
I wonder if any Remainer would be happy with progress towards Brexit?DougSeal said:
DelusionalPhilip_Thompson said:
We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.logical_song said:
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427007
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner. 0 -
Can we have an exact quote please?Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-494270070 -
Nothing has changed, and EU leaders made exactly the same kind of encouraging noises when May was there. Were you hibernating while this was going on?Philip_Thompson said:
We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.logical_song said:
Or could equal the same but with weasel words added to save Boris's face.Philip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427007
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/8350657/brexit-eu-angela-merkel-theresa-may-pm/
ANGELA Merkel today boosted Theresa May's chances of a new Brexit deal - insisting the hated Irish backstop CAN be replaced.
The German leader defied sneering Brussels Eurocrats as she called on the EU to take Mrs May's demands seriously.0 -
Weren't the proposing similar technological solutions to the Irish Sea border?logical_song said:
No, the Irish Sea Border wouldn't require a backstop, so that problem vanishes. Now all Boris needs to do is convince the very reasonable DUP Mps who are providing his tiny majority.RobD said:0 -
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
We totally agree. In fact, this afternoon we climbed up the tower. Definitely one of the better cathedrals.AlastairMeeks said:
Durham cathedral is one of the finest buildings in the country. It would comfortably be in my top ten.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.
One of the great things about our random holidays is we get to see places we've never been before, and ordinarily wouldn't get to go to.0 -
OT, or maybe on it, but where and when did "sneering" become the word of choice for any statement I don't agree with?
It is curious indeed.0 -
I opposed May in 2016.MarqueeMark said:
Like 2016. Blame Gove.....Philip_Thompson said:We'll see. I think its Varadkar's face that needs saving, but either way after a dire wasted year nearly of "nothing has changed" now things are changing.
This is why Boris was the right man to be PM. Shame it didn't happen sooner.
Would have preferred Gove then, but MPs thought otherwise. MPs screwed up, a sign of things to come.0 -
Not very different = better than May achievedPhilip_Thompson said:
Is the BBC the Borisgraph?Stark_Dawning said:
Could you provide a quotation as an example of someone saying something different over the last 48 hours? I'm genuinely interested in what you're picking up here? (Obviously this has to be something from one of the major players on the EU side - not spin from the Borisgraph or UK government flunkies.)Philip_Thompson said:
No they haven't. They were saying that no legally-binding changes could be made to the withdrawal agreement and the only changes they'd countenance was to the PD.malcolmg said:
They have been saying that for 3 yearsPhilip_Thompson said:
And they have agreed to remove the backstop, if a replacement is found. Mission accomplished. This is progressGallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
Now they're saying something different. Something has changed.
But the expectation that he'd refuse point-blank to renegotiate the Brexit deal didn't materialise.
Instead, he simply warned that any withdrawal agreement that the two sides might reach in the next month wouldn't be very different from the existing one
Not very different != not different.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-494270070 -
0
-
I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 70 days.
What am I missing?
1 -
Indeed. Angry Remainers here are in denial today. Sensible ones are hedging their bets, even Topping referred to himself earlier today as being "hopeful but skeptical" about replacing the backstop with a technical solution, something previously described as impossible. But the angry ones are insisting nothing has changed and howling against the moon. They want failure, because they want Brexit to fail. They're going to be disappointed.RobD said:I wonder if any Remainer would be happy with progress towards Brexit?
0 -
The EU being willing to engage.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 79 days.
What am I missing?
An agreement can only be reached if both sides are talking. They were refusing to talk about replacements, that's no longer the case. That is what you are missing.0 -
Vacuous nonsense.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Angry Remainers here are in denial today. Sensible ones are hedging their bets, even Topping referred to himself earlier today as being "hopeful but skeptical" about replacing the backstop with a technical solution, something previously described as impossible. But the angry ones are insisting nothing has changed and howling against the moon. They want failure, because they want Brexit to fail. They're going to be disappointed.RobD said:I wonder if any Remainer would be happy with progress towards Brexit?
0 -
Case in point. Keep howling.Gallowgate said:
Vacuous nonsense.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Angry Remainers here are in denial today. Sensible ones are hedging their bets, even Topping referred to himself earlier today as being "hopeful but skeptical" about replacing the backstop with a technical solution, something previously described as impossible. But the angry ones are insisting nothing has changed and howling against the moon. They want failure, because they want Brexit to fail. They're going to be disappointed.RobD said:I wonder if any Remainer would be happy with progress towards Brexit?
0 -
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
Happy anniversary, Mr. and Mrs. Jessop.1
-
Just goes to show how easy it is to get a photo at an apparently embarrassing moment, that can be taken completely out of context.Tissue_Price said:1 -
Me too. That is exactly what I am trying to ascertain.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 70 days.
What am I missing?0 -
Sounds like another extension to me. This may not be a bad ploy. Get an indefinite A50 extension but re-brand it the 'long-term transition and re-negotiation phase' or some such. We won't then need to worry about the backstop because we'll still be in the EU. Could be a goer.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
That's a stupid position since you can't remove it without talking about it!dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
But how have they engaged differently? They have said nothing new. If Boris or May could have come up with a solution to the backstop months ago it would have all been over then. That has always been on the table.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU being willing to engage.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 79 days.
What am I missing?
An agreement can only be reached if both sides are talking. They were refusing to talk about replacements, that's no longer the case. That is what you are missing.
0 -
You could become a twitcher - that would take you to (literally) every corner of Britain.JosiasJessop said:
We totally agree. In fact, this afternoon we climbed up the tower. Definitely one of the better cathedrals.AlastairMeeks said:
Durham cathedral is one of the finest buildings in the country. It would comfortably be in my top ten.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.
One of the great things about our random holidays is we get to see places we've never been before, and ordinarily wouldn't get to go to.
Durham is indeed a wonderful place. Spent three years there.0 -
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.0 -
-
No it wasn't on the table. They were refusing to engage in finding replacements, it takes two to tango. Only when they're willing to compromise is a replacement possible.kjh said:
But how have they engaged differently? They have said nothing new. If Boris or May could have come up with a solution to the backstop months ago it would have all been over then. That has always been on the table.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU being willing to engage.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 79 days.
What am I missing?
An agreement can only be reached if both sides are talking. They were refusing to talk about replacements, that's no longer the case. That is what you are missing.
You don't understand the concept of compromise do you? It isn't possible with just one party, that is called surrender. Both parties need to engage to have a compromise - the door was opened to that now.0 -
But you can't talk about it without an alternative...RobD said:
That's a stupid position since you can't remove it without talking about it!dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
What, exactly, are these proposals which have been made?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.0 -
Ed Miliband sympathises, I'm sure. But the clickbait engines must be fuelled...RobD said:
Just goes to show how easy it is to get a photo at an apparently embarrassing moment, that can be taken completely out of context.Tissue_Price said:1 -
How is the current position different to what Merkel said back in February?Philip_Thompson said:
No it wasn't on the table. They were refusing to engage in finding replacements, it takes two to tango. Only when they're willing to compromise is a replacement possible.kjh said:
But how have they engaged differently? They have said nothing new. If Boris or May could have come up with a solution to the backstop months ago it would have all been over then. That has always been on the table.Philip_Thompson said:
The EU being willing to engage.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 79 days.
What am I missing?
An agreement can only be reached if both sides are talking. They were refusing to talk about replacements, that's no longer the case. That is what you are missing.
You don't understand the concept of compromise do you? It isn't possible with just one party, that is called surrender. Both parties need to engage to have a compromise - the door was opened to that now.0 -
Some pointed out at the time that Macron was smiling which made it clear there was more to the photo than met the idea.RobD said:
Just goes to show how easy it is to get a photo at an apparently embarrassing moment, that can be taken completely out of context.Tissue_Price said:0 -
Grieve...busy washing his hair...AlastairMeeks said:1 -
Not for Boris. The postman at the 1922 will be busy.Stark_Dawning said:
Sounds like another extension to me. This may not be a bad ploy. Get an indefinite A50 extension but re-brand it the 'long-term transition and re-negotiation phase' or some such. We won't then need to worry about the backstop because we'll still be in the EU. Could be a goer.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.0 -
He’s a clever guy, that Macron.RobD said:
Just goes to show how easy it is to get a photo at an apparently embarrassing moment, that can be taken completely out of context.Tissue_Price said:0 -
Proposals haven't been made yet, that is for the upcoming talks now they've agreed to them.dixiedean said:
What, exactly, are these proposals which have been made?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.
You have your sequencing backwards for some reason. You engage in talks, then you come up with proposals that both sides can agree to. How do you think otherwise is possible?0 -
They are just following the EU dogma. Deciding the nature of the border before discussing the future relationship.Philip_Thompson said:
Proposals haven't been made yet, that is for the upcoming talks now they've agreed to them.dixiedean said:
What, exactly, are these proposals which have been made?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.
You have your sequencing backwards for some reason. You engage in talks, then you come up with proposals that both sides can agree to. How do you think otherwise is possible? 0 -
Well we’ve got 30 days to come up with something we’ve been unable to do in 3 years.Philip_Thompson said:
Proposals haven't been made yet, that is for the upcoming talks now they've agreed to them.dixiedean said:
What, exactly, are these proposals which have been made?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.
You have your sequencing backwards for some reason. You engage in talks, then you come up with proposals that both sides can agree to. How do you think otherwise is possible?
I’m not hopeful.0 -
Graham Brady on PM now. Maybe he can enlighten me.0
-
Did he also assure us that we were leaving in March ?Gallowgate said:
That can’t be true. @HYUFD has assured me we’re leaving on the 31st October regardless.algarkirk said:
Interesting but irrelevant. The news agenda is written on water by a rapidly moving finger. It's like the 31st October promise. If Boris gets some sort of agreement by the end of that month but it is needing more time (highly likely) the broken promise is quickly forgotten.AlastairMeeks said:
Damn. I meant to include that in my piece last night and I forgot.Gallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
As May told us hundreds of times we were.0 -
Yes. Darn us collaborators.RobD said:
They are just following the EU dogma. Deciding the nature of the border before discussing the future relationship.Philip_Thompson said:
Proposals haven't been made yet, that is for the upcoming talks now they've agreed to them.dixiedean said:
What, exactly, are these proposals which have been made?Philip_Thompson said:
The EU were refusing to talk about replacing the backstop.dixiedean said:
I thought Boris was refusing to talk unless the backstop was removed? There has been no solution proposed. None. Over 3 years. You can't negotiate a non-proposal.Philip_Thompson said:
An acceptable alternative can only come about via negotiations with the EU and Ireland especially. They were refusing to engage, therefore one couldn't come about.dixiedean said:Lot of circular argument here. Backstop will go if there is an acceptable alternative. There is, as yet, no alternative, let alone an acceptable one.
What, exactly has changed?
Now they've agreed to engage. That's a change.
For as long as nobody actually wants no deal a face-saving change that permits a transition and the details to be finessed during transition without the threat of an immediate no deal, a risk to peace or the backstop existing works for everyone.
Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, a transition and talking in the future is good enough for now, even if it isn't as perfect for the EU as the backstop was.
A deal will be reached. Because nobody actually wants no deal.
So Boris said he wouldn't talk until they were willing to drop the backstop.
Now they've met and said they're willing to drop the backstop if we can agree an alternative. That's different.
There are lots of proposals that have been made, but it can't be a firm proposal until the two sides talk. The three years are meaningless since May wasted those and Eurofudge always comes about at the last minute.
The solution is obvious: Drop the backstop, agree a transition, start talking about the future in the transition, deal with the future then. Now we just need a face-saving way for the EU to agree to that. We have 30 days to save face for them.
You have your sequencing backwards for some reason. You engage in talks, then you come up with proposals that both sides can agree to. How do you think otherwise is possible?0 -
Boris: How much is that car?
EU: £1000
Boris: I'll give you a fiver
EU: No
Long pause
Boris: I want to buy the car for £5
EU: If you can find another £995 you can buy the car?
Boris fans: Progress, they are negotiating.
Well unless you are talking nothing can be gained, so from that point of view it is positive, but it is the only positive. Boris still has the same problem he had originally in that he has to find £995 or get them to concede something that they appear to have no intention of conceding, because the consequences to them of conceding are too high.
It is up to Boris to find £995 or a solution to the backstop.
There are 2 possibilities: He manages it or the EU fold. Neither seem plausible.
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And what happened when May extended?Yorkcity said:
Did he also assure us that we were leaving in March ?Gallowgate said:
That can’t be true. @HYUFD has assured me we’re leaving on the 31st October regardless.algarkirk said:
Interesting but irrelevant. The news agenda is written on water by a rapidly moving finger. It's like the 31st October promise. If Boris gets some sort of agreement by the end of that month but it is needing more time (highly likely) the broken promise is quickly forgotten.AlastairMeeks said:
Damn. I meant to include that in my piece last night and I forgot.Gallowgate said:
Boris himself said he wouldn’t meet any EU leaders until they had agreed to remove the backstop.RobD said:
He had to go crawling? There may have been negotiation, but what has he conceded?Gallowgate said:The fact Boris has had to go crawling to Berlin and Paris is pretty humiliating.
Quite funny how the no deal cult are celebrating the humiliation.
I wonder what mark Boris will get in his homework for Ms Merkel and Mr Macron.
I’m guessing an E.
He’s just making himself look even more of a fool than he already is.
As May told us hundreds of times we were.
The Tories collapsed to 3rd in the polls behind Labour and the Brexit Party, in the local elections in May they lost over 1000 seats and in the European Parliament elections got just 9% of the vote, the lowest Tory voteshare in history in a national election0 -
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There's a fair bit of slipperiness from the Borisites here. 1) The backstop as an enacted part of the agreement could always be removed once a feasible alternative was discovered - that was the point of it after all, and is what our EU friends have been restating over the last 48 hours. 2) Boris, on the other hand, said he wanted the obligation to impose the backstop removed from the WA. Boris's spinners are now conflating the two - saying that the truism of 1 somehow implies the achievement of 2. They're both about 'removing the backstop' after all, so why don't they amount to the same thing?dixiedean said:
Me too. That is exactly what I am trying to ascertain.kjh said:I'm obviously being very thick here, but this is my understanding:
There was going to be a backstop until we worked out how we could get rid of it.
Boris wants the backstop removed, or it is no deal on 31/10. The EU has agreed, if we can work out how we get rid of it in the next 30 days, then that is ok.
It seems to me that it is the same problem we had before except we only have 30 days now and not approx 70 days.
What am I missing?0 -
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If there was a technical solution why was it not brought forward in last 3 years. It has been wittered on about many times but is just vapourware. What can possibly make you think anything has changed other than you are desperate to believe in it.Gallowgate said:
Vacuous nonsense.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Angry Remainers here are in denial today. Sensible ones are hedging their bets, even Topping referred to himself earlier today as being "hopeful but skeptical" about replacing the backstop with a technical solution, something previously described as impossible. But the angry ones are insisting nothing has changed and howling against the moon. They want failure, because they want Brexit to fail. They're going to be disappointed.RobD said:I wonder if any Remainer would be happy with progress towards Brexit?
PS: I was referring to Phillip there , not your goodself Gallowgate0 -
Salesmanship counts. Our society runs on people buying stuff they don't want with money they haven't got. Boris is relying on getting the WA through the HoC with a translucent fig leaf. He's a salesman.HYUFD said:
Yes, it looks like Boris could sell ice to an eskimo while sadly May could not sell water to a nomad in the desertPulpstar said:I think if Johnson had negotiated the precise same deal as May, it'd be through the Commons by now. For all his faults he's clearly a better salesman than May ever was.
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That's nothing. President Macron listened and responded to Boris Johnson talking gibberish about the backstop while keeping a straight face. So impressive.HYUFD said:2 -
When May was leader the Brexit Party were polling 20 to 25% and the Tories were third, now the Brexit Party are polling only 10 to 15% and the Tories are polling 30%+.williamglenn said:Theresa May 2.0.
https://twitter.com/brexitparty_uk/status/1164566786098040834
The reason is Boris will now deliver Brexit Deal or No Deal, whereas May would only deliver Brexit with a Deal or else extend.
The No Deal, anti immigration diehards will vote Brexit Party regardless but Boris is now in a position to win a Tory majority anyway whereas May was not0 -
Mr. D, in 69 AD a critical and hard fought battle between the armies of Vitellius and Vespasian was won by the latter because the eastern armies of Vespasian turned to salute the sun, as was their custom, and the forces of Vitellius thought they were saluting reinforcements.0
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Man who grew up in and worked in Brussels understands French. Impressive.HYUFD said:0 -
Bill Bryson wrote that, on stepping into it, "I unhesitatingly gave Durham Cathedral my vote for the best cathedral on planet Earth", and he's right.JosiasJessop said:Off-topic:
Our wild and meandering drive around the country has brought us to Durham, a place neither of us have been before. It seems quite a beautiful place, and we're about to go down to have a meal to celebrate ten happy years of marriage.
So, in a good mood and spirit, I hope everyone has a great bank holiday weekend! Enjoy yourselves, wherever you find yourselves in this beautiful country and world of ours.0
