politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A man of principles. Boris Johnson and the EU
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Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really should not rely too heavily on the accuracy of BBC coverage.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
She did not state that an alternative could indeed be found within 30 days, she merely said there were 30 days left to attempt to deliver what could not be achieved over the last couple of years.
There's a difference.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.0 -
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.0 -
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.0 -
I expect Boris will cancel HS2 for the simple reason it’ll be popular with his base and will aid in BXP defections.
In the short term it will also allow a bit more to be sprayed around on other politically more rewarding initiatives.0 -
A small village near where I live has already been evacuated to make way for HS2.Casino_Royale said:I expect Boris will cancel HS2 for the simple reason it’ll be popular with his base and will aid in BXP defections.
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Whatever plan it is, regardless of viability, will be rejected.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch0 -
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
Alanbrooke said:
well look on the bright sidekjh said:
Ireland sounds like fun!Alanbrooke said:
Just say youre moving smokes for the RAkjh said:
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..Alanbrooke said:
youre bribing the wrong people :-)kjh said:
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage thatAlanbrooke said:
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.kjh said:
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.HYUFD said:
nobody will bother you
Pre CU/Single Market I spent hours on several occasions arguing at customs over a carnet and that was just me in a car. I dread what is going to happen when that all come back. God knows what happens when trailers full of a rock group stuff or F1 trailers comes back. I was arguing over trivia. Some of the questions were impossible to answer. I did sus out at one point that they didn't actually necessarily want the correct answer, just an answer. Weight of stuff was a good one. Shrug of shoulders was no good, but a completely made up number did the trick.
youre moving the Stones, you could have that sanctimonious prick Bono droning on in the back about morality in between calls to his tax accountant. :-)
I should make clear this was between UK and France. I suspect the Irish border might be different in equally funny ways (although it was never fun at the time).
Sadly I never moved anything like s rock group or cars; just computers and demo stuff.0 -
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.0 -
Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.0 -
Think what happens when a train stops: the doors open, a number of people get off, some get on, and then the doors close and the train sets off. In the case of Thameslink, dwell time was meant to be about a minute to do all of that (*) - at quiet stations it can be only thirty seconds.ydoethur said:
I saw your post. I'm not altogether sure I agree, but in any case the point is moot. (Snip)JosiasJessop said:I wrote something about this on the previous thread: actually, the place you don't want to use double-decker trains is on commuter lines with many stops, as they take so long to load and unload passengers from them that it delays other services, reducing the available paths. Longer trains are much better.
Everyone who wants to get off is probably not standing ready by a door when the train stops, so passengers need to collect their bags, squeeze down the aisle and then to the door. Likewise, passengers getting on might no be adjacent to a door, and therefore need to get their belongings along the platform to the door. This all takes precious seconds.
Now think about a double-decker. A passenger on the top deck needs to get from his seat in the middle of the train to the nearest stairwell (and the top deck probably has a lower ceiling as well), descend the stairs, merge with passengers getting off from the lower deck, and then get out onto the platform. That's on top of the fact that a carriage with more passenger capacity will naturally take longer to empty and fill.
(*) AIUI this was one of the sources of Thameslink's timetabling woes last year: the timetables dwell time was too short. As passengers could not get on and off within the scheduled dwell time, the train was delayed, and all the following trains were as well.0 -
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.0 -
Mostly, until you need them.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.0 -
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumptionFoxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.0 -
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.1 -
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.Casino_Royale said:Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.0 -
They consist of making NI a special case within both the UK and the EU, which indeed what the WA was originally driving at.Foxy said:
The backstop only kicks in if alternative arrangements do not work, hence the alternative arrangements fit into the PD rather than the WA.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Indeed it is fundamental to the backstop that alternative arrangements exist, though realistically these consist of permenant CU and SM alignment.
That might constrain the UK in some areas, and the EU in others. For the rest they may reasonably reinterpret or diverge.0 -
lol, and watch Putin march all over the Baltics?Foxy said:
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.Casino_Royale said:Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.0 -
I think foxy is drunk. I know the signs.0
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Huh? Tier 3 was never implemented so I’m not sure what you are on about. I’m asking whether it will be? Is there a policy document I can look at?HYUFD said:
It will end Labour's preference for EU workers at Tier 3 providing a level playing fieldDougSeal said:
Thanks. What about Tier 3?HYUFD said:
To some extent yes, except Labour is refusing to commit to extending it to EEA migrants to replace free movementDougSeal said:@HYUFD - this is the points based system that Labour introduced for non EEA migrants. Is your party’s proposal to extend it to EEA migrants?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7269790.stm0 -
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.Foxy said:
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
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True, he has no intention imo of even trying to come up with a plan.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
All his efforts will be no deal and winning a GE.
Which will not be difficult against Corbyn.0 -
I really do not see how phase one can be stopped now. Given that building has already begun, notably in he most expensive bits in London and central Birmingham, it would almost certainly cost as much to cancel as to proceed.AndyJS said:
A small village near where I live has already been evacuated to make way for HS2.Casino_Royale said:I expect Boris will cancel HS2 for the simple reason it’ll be popular with his base and will aid in BXP defections.
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I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?0
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Family members are, or have been involved with this. It required a great deal of preparation and planning for eventualities. I understand that there is some consideration being given to shifting part at any rate of the F1 operation, especially where 'things' are involved, to France.kjh said:
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..Alanbrooke said:
youre bribing the wrong people :-)kjh said:
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage thatAlanbrooke said:
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.kjh said:
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.HYUFD said:0 -
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.1 -
Ditto with a No Deal Brexit that leaves the UK entirely dependent on the goodwill of others.Alanbrooke said:
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumptionFoxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
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Nigel Farage will froth whatever happens, because that's the sort of person he is. He's a slightly more articulate version of Corbyn, always looking for something to blow his top,over even if he doesn't have the least understanding of what to do about it.Stark_Dawning said:I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?
The reason Johnson will not extend is because his own supporters would round on him.1 -
There are proportionally at least as many votes in Ireland for f*ck the English as there are in France, whatever the cost.SouthamObserver said:
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.Foxy said:
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.0 -
nonsenseFoxy said:
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.Casino_Royale said:Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
since were the only ones with a functioning army its time to invade Germany and annex Mercedes.0 -
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
I believe George Osborne and the U.K. was instrumental in getting those approvednichomar said:
What about the EU financial transparency regulations which come in to force in 2020? Are you lobbying your contacts to adopt them regardless of wether we leave the EU?HYUFD said:
So says the facts which a leftwinger like you cannot refute so has to change the subject and yes living in a converted shipping container provides you with a roof over your head and bed and 4 walls so you are not homeless and sleeping on the streets and as I have repeatedly said it was the working class and lower middle class who voted Leave, most upper middle class voters voted Remainnichomar said:
So says the man who thinks living in a shipping container means your not homeless whilst supporting disaster capitalists and off shore tax avoiders in their attempt to destroy the UKHYUFD said:84% of Tory voters and 88% of Brexit Party voters support Boris Johnson's Brexit approach but only 10% of LD voters and 43% of Labour voters support Corbyn's Brexit approach in another blow for the Labour leader and boost for the PM
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/21/boris-can-win-only-going-after-brexit-party-voters0 -
Why?Foxy said:
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.Casino_Royale said:Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
I presume you realise that’d lead to us becoming less safe and geostrategic bullying from other major powers, leading to greater regional instability, trade disruption and fewer rights and freedoms for us?0 -
Judging by the quality of posts on military matters, several posters appear to have been on a Benzer.Alanbrooke said:
nonsenseFoxy said:
Time to disband NATO and further reduce our other forces.Casino_Royale said:Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
Our defence is now provided at someone else’s expense.
2% of GDP is a really modest amount of military spending and the minimum for a credible defensive alliance.
Which is why NATO set the target at that level.
since were the only ones with a functioning army its time to invade Germany and annex Mercedes.0 -
Careful, your trollery is showing.Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
Evening all
For all the optimism about Merkel's comments, it's no real change in direction from the EU. The onus has always been on Britain to come up with ideas and solutions to issues such as the backstop. We've wibbled around, come up with nothing and tried to change the subject.
It's possible Johnson, Cummings et al will come up with some ideas but also highly probable Merkel and the EU will reject them. Politically, an EU rejection will be helpful for the Conservatives as it will allow them to blame the EU for everything (but they were going to do that anyway).
However, the key point remains as it has ever since March 2017 - the onus is on Britain to come up with solutions which is fine - after all, we are the ones who want to leave, we are the ones who should come up with practical proposals and sensible solutions to the issues of disengaging or de-coupling the economic and political relationship between the UK and the EU and not just solutions which work for us but for the EU as well and fit with existing international treaties such as the GFA.
There's also no point raising solutions which may be technologically possible in 10 years - the EU, not surprisingly, want solutions which will be viable as soon as A50 ends and the UK formally leaves.0 -
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.Byronic said:
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.0 -
Whenever I read Trumpton’s tweets, I instinctively assume he’s outrageously pissed.
That he is a confirmed teetotaller is one of the more bizarre truths of the modern world.0 -
It's still part of Europe!Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
It’s a bit love/hate with some banterous nationalistic posturing, isn’t it?SouthamObserver said:
The most interesting thing about today is how easily Merkel played Johnson. You could almost see her stifling a yawn. I suspect the Macron meeting may be more fun. There are as many votes in France for f...big the English over as there are in England for doing the same to France. And Macron knows he holds the aces.Foxy said:
And it would only be a proposed plan, that could be incorporated into a PD, not a change to the WA.SouthamObserver said:
“Discussing” doing a heroic amount of heavy lifting here. What she actually said is that the UK has 30 days to propose a viable alternative to the backstop. She gave Johnson a deadline to come up with a plan.Philip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Angela was also clear that it was for the EU council to do the negotiating, not her.
France and the UK have done major bilateral deals on defence and migration in recent years.0 -
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
well you would say thatFoxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
but it makes much more sense to abolish the doctors pension scheme, put the money in to our forces and tell the BMA since their members have no retirement fund theyd better start working for some pension credits,
two problems solved at once.0 -
A faraway country of which we know little.Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
YouGov - “How well or badly do you think the government are doing at handling Britain's exit from the European Union?“
(net well)
North of England -62
Scotland -59
London -56
Midlands and Wales -51
Rest of Southern England -47
GB -53
(page 4)
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/g82fatejnj/TheTimes_190814_VI_Trackers_w.pdf0 -
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.OldKingCole said:
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.Byronic said:
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.0 -
More likely gives him cover to say “ I tried, I was reasonable, I made workable proposals, they threw them back in our face “. The average voter is long past comatose what the details are that may or may not be proposed or their feasibility. It will look like he tried, the EU rejected.Stark_Dawning said:I wonder if Angela’s remarks today have given Boris the cover he needed to extend A50 again. The spin writes itself: ‘The EU was adamant that the WA was not up for renegotiation, but with our steadfastness and determination we’ve seen them wobble on that. Imagine what I could get with another nine months!’ Nigel will froth but who else?
Meanwhile time goes by towards 31st October, and I just struggle to see him extending.0 -
Nope, stone cold sober.Byronic said:I think foxy is drunk. I know the signs.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.0 -
Trump being a teetotaller is one of the strongest arguments for a little alcoholic refreshment!Anabobazina said:Whenever I read Trumpton’s tweets, I instinctively assume he’s outrageously pissed.
That he is a confirmed teetotaller is one of the more bizarre truths of the modern world.0 -
that only works if we dont have an economy, most our our economy isnt trade driven.SouthamObserver said:
Ditto with a No Deal Brexit that leaves the UK entirely dependent on the goodwill of others.Alanbrooke said:
a country which cant defend itself is relying on everyone else being decent human beings. history tends to show thats a rash assumptionFoxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
0 -
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.0 -
So which policy failure do you see as greater ?matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?JosiasJessop said:
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.0 -
Indeed. Trumpton and Corbo are both teetotal I believe. Hardly an advert for sobriety.OldKingCole said:
Trump being a teetotaller is one of the strongest arguments for a little alcoholic refreshment!Anabobazina said:Whenever I read Trumpton’s tweets, I instinctively assume he’s outrageously pissed.
That he is a confirmed teetotaller is one of the more bizarre truths of the modern world.0 -
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.0 -
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.Byronic said:
Careful, your trollery is showing.Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.Byronic said:
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.OldKingCole said:
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.Byronic said:
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?0 -
Certainly a failure of UK policy post 1975. The issue is was the failure an inability to help mould a Europe which all could live with or was the failure trying to lance a boil which happened to be an artery. probably a bit of bothspudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.0 -
lol, check the calendar weve left 2003Foxy said:
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.Byronic said:
Careful, your trollery is showing.Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.0 -
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.0 -
well if someone suggested a war against Trump Im sure we could boost spending dramaticallyOldKingCole said:
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.Byronic said:
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.OldKingCole said:
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.Byronic said:
This is ridiculously corisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?0 -
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.TOPPING said:
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?JosiasJessop said:
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
https://www.themilitarytimes.co.uk/news/army-come-to-the-aid-of-whaley-bridge/
Here is another example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/101898720 -
That statement rests too much on your own assumptions about how things will play out from here. For one thing, the UK hasn't left yet.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
0 -
Major cutbacks to our military in the period 1920-22 were based on this same premise, that Europe was so sick of war and carnage it would never let it recur.Foxy said:
Not trolling at all. Enough Europeans have died in pointless wars that only damaged the continent, the current low expenditure on the military reflects the low level of military risk that we face. It is a good thing.Byronic said:
Careful, your trollery is showing.Foxy said:
Nothing to do with us, and not something that NATO has put any effort into stopping, so what difference to the Donbass if NATO didn't exist?ydoethur said:
There's still fighting in the Donbass.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
I wouldn't disband the military entirely. Some light infantry for ceremonial and disaster duties, some coastal and fisheries protection vessels and some patrol aircraft should be plenty.
Remind me how that worked out?
Si vis pacem, para bellum.0 -
No Merkel just plain fucked up. She has no feeling for sentiment outside Germanywilliamglenn said:
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
In the last 30 years: the failure to play a more stabilising role in the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the disaster in the Ukraine.Alanbrooke said:
So which policy failure do you see as greater ?matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
I would assume the 3.42% share of GDP spent on defence by the US covers much more than the NATO commitment and especially activities in the north west Pacific.
To be fair, seven NATO countries have reached 2% spend while others are close by and I'm not sure I'm too concerned about Luxembourg's 0.65%. given the size of their GDP. Increasing that to 2% might buy a few more bullets but that's all.
OTOH, there's a symbolism here as well and Trump has a point about some NATO countries traditionally not paying their way. I suppose the corollary is in a conventional war (pre 1989) it was West German, Dutch and Belgian territory which was going to be ravaged rather than American or British.0 -
The problem was that the system wasn't designed, it was achieved though many compromises designed to keep major countries on side. the CAP and CFP long outlived their usefulness by the 1980s but because of vested interests they were not properly reformed. It's happened time and again.Alanbrooke said:
Certainly a failure of UK policy post 1975. The issue is was the failure an inability to help mould a Europe which all could live with or was the failure trying to lance a boil which happened to be an artery. probably a bit of bothspudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.0 -
its a blog Billy Boy, the point is people express their views, I realise that might come as a shock when they dont agree with you.williamglenn said:
That statement rests too much on your own assumptions about how things will play out from here. For one thing, the UK hasn't left yet.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
Soldiers are trained to fight and kill people. The rest is a freebie. You can buy a Chinook for your local police force or fire brigade if the will is there.JosiasJessop said:
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.TOPPING said:
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?JosiasJessop said:
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
https://www.themilitarytimes.co.uk/news/army-come-to-the-aid-of-whaley-bridge/
Here is another example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/101898720 -
Interesting, but they still must have the issue for non EU countries anyway.OldKingCole said:
Family members are, or have been involved with this. It required a great deal of preparation and planning for eventualities. I understand that there is some consideration being given to shifting part at any rate of the F1 operation, especially where 'things' are involved, to France.kjh said:
It is a good job they don't have a Grand Prix in Ireland. The carnets for that must be interesting, particularly for stuff they bring in which is needed yesterday. Still I guess they are geared up for it, for all the non EU countries visited..Alanbrooke said:
youre bribing the wrong people :-)kjh said:
Not sure the Rolling Stones tour buses and lorries will manage thatAlanbrooke said:
Just use one of the back roads round Aughnacloy or Clones same as everyone else.kjh said:
I assume you are just posting the tweet without actually knowing how any of this works. Or do you? Do you export? Can you tell me what I do if I'm taking stuff over the border that I then bring back for instance, something I used to do and I can think of many major commercial organisations that have to do that on a grand scale. Just because someone drops words like trusted trader, mobile checks doesn't mean it will work. Nobody has actually come up with an alternative. At least nobody who actually does it for real and is not a politician who crosses his/her fingers.HYUFD said:
For me this is the one of the biggest issues. As I have mentioned here before I was involved (ran) a pre sales bid in Cyprus where we had a head to head competition for a contract. The bid alone was a 3 month build resulting in a 3 week demo. We needed a specific bit of equipment flown in and it got held up in customs. I know, because I was calling customs everyday, that our competitor had the same issue. This was pre Cyprus being in the EU and the current set up. The build was a nightmare and a key part was completed only hours before the deadline.
If we had the same issue and we were UK based and outside of the EU and our competitor in the EU we would have lost the bid because of the delay. Both bidders were very large US multi-nationals with European HO in the UK. The choice would be move to the EU or lose multi million pound contracts.
If your still on HYUFD how would you solve that issue?0 -
Things looking pretty positive for Boris and Brexit tonight?
0 -
Anecdote: I had dinner with a very smart French civil servant in Lyon, about two months before the vote. He was fascinated by Brexit and also alarmed, and asked me lots of questions. His main question was: Do you think you will vote Leave.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
I said it was most unlikely.
He shook his head, looked very sad and soulful, and said “I think you will vote Leave, and it will be a disaster for all of us”. He implied that both sides had fucked up the *renegotiation*.
A poignant moment, in retrospect.0 -
What was the fig leaf?williamglenn said:
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
Russia and China are spending considerarbly more in real terms because their economies have been growing very nicely in recent decades. The GDP comparison is deeply misleading, you should look at what they've got and what they are building.Foxy said:
Nope, stone cold sober.Byronic said:I think foxy is drunk. I know the signs.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.0 -
@Mr Meeks
Have you been consistent on the idea that Turkey could/should join the EU?
Personally I like the EU when its a sweeping tide of non-belligerence, but I don't like it when its a sweeping tide of bureaucratic socialism. Thus I like the idea of Turkey joining a community of friends, but I hate the idea of top-down smothering 'democratic' layers. The outward personality of the EU is bright and Belgian Cheeky Chocolate, the innards are dark and Luxembourg on a bad night. Turkey adds to both extremes should they join.
I've equivocated on the issue, I think it's reasonable that Boris has, and I'm fairly sure you're likely to have too.
0 -
Indeed and, without NATO, the Soviet Union would have likely brought Western Germany into its orbit, Benelux and Italy too.stodge said:I would assume the 3.42% share of GDP spent on defence by the US covers much more than the NATO commitment and especially activities in the north west Pacific.
To be fair, seven NATO countries have reached 2% spend while others are close by and I'm not sure I'm too concerned about Luxembourg's 0.65%. given the size of their GDP. Increasing that to 2% might buy a few more bullets but that's all.
OTOH, there's a symbolism here as well and Trump has a point about some NATO countries traditionally not paying their way. I suppose the corollary is in a conventional war (pre 1989) it was West German, Dutch and Belgian territory which was going to be ravaged rather than American or British.0 -
Surprisingly you misunderstand the political dynamics. Nothing would have been enough, because it would have been taken as proof that threatening to leave wins you concessions because they really do 'need us more than we need them'. Brexiteers would have said, "If they gave us x just because of the prospect of a vote, just think what they'd offer if we actually voted to leave." In many ways this logic of showing them we're serious is what still drives Boris Johnson's negotiating tactics.Byronic said:She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.0 -
They are indeed. That does not mean that is all they do.TOPPING said:
Soldiers are trained to fight and kill people. (Snip)JosiasJessop said:
I have no idea what a '300m grouping is'.TOPPING said:
What sort of 300m grouping do you think is necessary to help at Whaley Bridge?JosiasJessop said:
Whaley Bridge recently showed exactly how useful a well-funded and organised military can be in civil emergencies.Foxy said:
Nah, the reason that countries across the continent, including our own, have run down their armed forces so much is the common recognition that they are mostly a waste of money and resources.Alanbrooke said:
the period is indeed remarkable but lets not pretend thgere isnt any fighting, Basically Europe rolls over every time theres shooting, Crimea, then the Ukraine. Germany and France arent going to do anything except hide behing the US.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
But I do know that civilians don't have many Chinhook helicopters handy, nor are trained engineers to do such work immediately available. And the 40 soldiers who helped build a sandbag wall to stop a stream from filling up the reservoir can't exactly be got off the shelf.
They helped the fire brigade, police and others perform a critical task.
https://www.themilitarytimes.co.uk/news/army-come-to-the-aid-of-whaley-bridge/
Here is another example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/101898720 -
The benefits thing.welshowl said:
What was the fig leaf?williamglenn said:
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.1 -
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
1 -
Britain in particular depends upon open markets, global stability and secure sea lanes.OldKingCole said:
I didn't say that we didn't need to spend anything, just that there needed to be some serious thought on what we spend our defence money on.Byronic said:
No, dealing with ISIS, China, Putin, cyber attacks, Al Qaeda, foreign wars, piracy, migration crises, et al, requires MONEY. At least 2% of GDP, I’d say.OldKingCole said:
Dealing with ISIS and the like requires intelligence and small, highly mobile units. Not conventional armies, navies or airforces.Byronic said:
This is ridiculously complacent. The world is clearly a more dangerous and unstable place than it was fifteen or twenty years ago, before 9/11, the rise of Xi, ISIS, the migrant crisis etc.Foxy said:
Currently Russia, but no longer fighting there methinks.Alanbrooke said:
which country is the Crimea in ?Foxy said:
The demilitarisation of Europe is something to be proud of, not ashamed of. It is a product of the continent that used to be at constant war, now being at constant peace. It is a piece of progress that our ancestors would have been very envious of.HYUFD said:
The period of European peace is quite remarkable over the last quarter century, despite a few still ongoing issues in the former USSR.
Europeans underspend on defense and freeload off America. Fact.
I assume no-one's suggested we're going to go to a physical war with China!
And what other foreign wars do you think we should take part in?
Our prosperity and security can’t be delivered just at the border. We have to engage. We have to ally. We have to influence. We can’t just hole up behind the cliffs of Dover with a militia and bugger everyone else.
That’s just as ignorant as the most extreme of Brexiteer positions, but on defence it can be espiused by the Left.0 -
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 days
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
You really shouldnce.
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is still, nonetheless, stupid and myopic. She and other EU leaders should have given more to the UK, just to make sure Brexit could never happen. A fudge back then would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so.
Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.0 -
fair pointsmatthiasfromhamburg said:
In the last 30 years: the failure to play a more stabilising role in the dissolution of Yugoslavia, the disaster in the Ukraine.Alanbrooke said:
So which policy failure do you see as greater ?matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
but as has been pointed out Germany has no intention or capability to police Europe. It freeloads off the US and needs the apperance of the EU to leverage its position. It has now avoidably put itself in the position where iit will have to make major revisions to its position. Yugoslavia and Ukraine were acts forced on Germany by others, Brexit is entirely self inflicted.0 -
Absolutely right and precise.spudgfsh said:
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
And on that positive note, goodnight all from sultry Roumeli0 -
In other news: at the age of 55 I have decided there is no greater pleasure than reading a good book and drinking a cold beer as the sun sets behind the Isle of Purbeck and a cool sea breeze blows across me. It is what heaven feels like, I am sure.0
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Agreed. Dodging a referendum on Lisbon was a colossal screw up.spudgfsh said:
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.0 -
I just did the train from Larbert to Dundee via PerthByronic said:
Absolutely right and precise.spudgfsh said:
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.
And on that positive note, goodnight all from sultry Roumeli 0 -
That wasn’t a leaf it was about two cells of chlorophyll! Oh how we all laughed in despair....williamglenn said:
The benefits thing.welshowl said:
What was the fig leaf?williamglenn said:
He did get a fig leaf, and it didn't do the trick. Letting people expect that he would negotiate splitting the four freedoms was entirely on Cameron.welshowl said:
Do you think Merkel should have thrown Cameron something ( anything at all would’ve done the trick, a tiny fig leaf that’s all) on limiting freedom of movement? All this could have been avoided.matthiasfromhamburg said:
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.Alanbrooke said:
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.matthiasfromhamburg said:
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.Alanbrooke said:
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.matthiasfromhamburg said:
You really shouldnce.HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.0 -
as was rebadging the failed EU constitution and trying againwelshowl said:
Agreed. Dodging a referendum on Lisbon was a colossal screw up.spudgfsh said:
Neither did the British government. but because we had not given the population a buy-in on the project via any kind of referendum (including one that was sidestepped) they had no idea how many people didn't like the status quo.welshowl said:
Quite.Byronic said:
A good summary. Brexit is a dramatic failure by all the actors involved. So easily avoidable. It took decades of lies, evasions, cock-ups, wankery, posturing, and general political incompetence to get us to this remarkable and perilous point.spudgfsh said:
It's also one of the greatest fp failures of the uk government too.Alanbrooke said:That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
It's been a massive misunderstanding, by both sides, of the others perspective on what the EU was for. Had they, in the 1980's proposed a long term goal as to what the EU would look like (without even putting a timeframe on it) people all over europe would have had the chance to buy into it. now they are faced with brexit in the UK, hard liners in Hungary and populists in Italy. If people are not given a vision, or are not buying into it then it's not a surprise when things go wrong. The EU and it's constituent governments should have had a foreign policy which provided that vision and changed it when it wasn't working/unpopular. instead they brought in the Euro without the mechanisms to support it (both political and financial) and suffered the consequences.
History will not be kind to either “side”.
I think we’ve been talking past each other for decades. The Brits tried to convince themselves it was a trade deal with annoying political bits to put up with that could be contained, the continentals saw it as politics with additional trade. Huge generalisation I know, and doubtless some on each side did see it the other way round too, but the crunch was decades in the making.
Both sides in 2016 utterly misread the whole situation. The Brits underestimated the others desire not to row back on their project, the 27 just didn’t believe the Brits would ever really vote to leave.0 -
You would admit though, watching Boris at his press conference with Angela, he did appear gauche and unstatesmanlike?HYUFD said:
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysPhilip_Thompson said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.HYUFD said:
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-494276740 -
Yes and Merkel suggesting an alternative to the backstop could be found within 30 daysmatthiasfromhamburg said:
Elements of sanity entering the discussion.
Funny how the backstop couldn't be replaced, there were no alternatives, it was absolutely fundamentally required . . . only to then say lets spend the next 30 days discussing its replacement.
Serious grown up politics entering the discussion. Well done Boris!
And interesting that it is Merkel - not Tusk or Varadkar - that was the one to go to, in order to make progress. The sheriff is calling the shots now, BMW no doubt have been in touch
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49427674
You really shouldnce.
This morning on BBC we had 2 german journalists trailing the story that a compromise on the backstop was likely.
If the germans cant agree amongst themselves then why shouldnt we ask the same questions
Of course you can continue asking the same questions, regardless of agreement between German journalists with each other or with the German government.
What is needed now are answers to questions.
Mr. Johnson has admitted today that the ball is in fact now in the UK's court.
That's progress, however infinitesimally small.
That the UK is leaving the EU is probably the greatest failure of German foreign policy since 1945.
The manner of the departure simply accentuates the failure.
I agree to a certain extent, not sure if "failure" is entirely fair, "greatest" seems even more questionable (top ten, rather), but I certainly agree that the current development is highly undesirable and regrettable.
Do you think Merkel should have thrown oided.
To be fair to Merkel, she had idiot Dave Cameron on one side, saying “I’ll win the vote whatever you give me”, and she had Eastern Europeans on the other, saying “you cannot touch Freedom of Movement!”
So her position is understandable. It was and is stn would have saved enormous grief now.
A proposed emergency brake on migration, in extremis, would surely have been enough.
When FoM for Eastern European accession states came into force a number of Western European states implemented "immigration brakes", the UK refused to do so.
Whining about too much immigration only a few years later, and demanding impingements of the fundamental right of FoM then was simply untenable.
Whereas inviting most of the Middle East to Europe with no consultation with anyone else, then whining like fuck when they turn up and trying to dump a problem you created on your neighbours is just fine ?0 -
Everyone knew what nuclear escalation would mean for civilisation and everyone liked their lifestyles too much to want Europe as an irradiated hellhole let alone spreading the megatons of death worldwide.Casino_Royale said:
Indeed and, without NATO, the Soviet Union would have likely brought Western Germany into its orbit, Benelux and Italy too.
If you enjoy the finer things of life (as many Communist leaders and apparatchiks did) the notion of losing them was far too unpalatable to risk. I'm sure the same is true for the clique in Pyongyang too.
When the issue is religion, as in the Indian Sub Continent, such notions may not apply and I still worry the next Kashmir incident might escalate into a real shooting war.
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Sure, some parts of the world are not at the stage of social development as Europe, so may well feel a degree of military threat. In practice these tend to be autocratic countries, and the army is mostly a menace to their own people, as we see at the moment in Shenzen and the implicit threats to Hong Kong. Across most of the world this is true, As democracy has spread through Africa and Latin America, military expenditure has dropped there too.glw said:
Russia and China are spending considerarbly more in real terms because their economies have been growing very nicely in recent decades. The GDP comparison is deeply misleading, you should look at what they've got and what they are building.Foxy said:
Nope, stone cold sober.Byronic said:I think foxy is drunk. I know the signs.
Just pointing out that countries right across the continent are spending less on their military as a proportion of GDP than at any point in history, and that we are nearly entirely at peace. As a continent, Governments, including our own, rightly see the armed forces as a waste of money, which is why the forces have been cut back so much during austerity by the Tories.
A lot of Western countries, notably the USA and UK, have traditionally been suspicious of large standing armies as instruments of tyranny. We had a substantial navy that helped us avoid that European disease of militarism.0 -
Further to the PB post a few days ago, Shadsy has now published a price for John Bercow to be the next PM:
100/10 -
This discussion has been closed.