politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ComRes and the Telegraph come under fierce fire from other pol
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ComRes and the Telegraph come under fierce fire from other pollsters over the latest poll
I can't recall a national opinion poll for a leading newspaper being so criticized as tonight's one from ComRes for the Daily Telegraph.
Comments
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First.
This is something it has been doing for years and for which I’ve criticised in the past.
So this isn't anything new with ComRes. You pays your money, you takes your choice.1 -
Second!0
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It appears that @HYUFD was repeatedly polled:
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/11611753046159933443 -
'Leavers' still making up facts to suit their prejudices. That the Telegraph does it should surprise no one but how the hell did they get Com Res to collude?0
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I'm actually rather relieved. If these findings were correct, then the majority of my fellow countrymen would favour direct rule by a Tory placeman over the authority of their own democratically elected representatives. Better to see the death of ComRes's reputation than the death of a nation.0
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They aren’t known as Comedy Results without cause.0
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Does Comres methodology help or hinder Labour with the apparent low recall (ceteris paribus) ?0
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Peace in Europe *is* a major motivation for the EEC/EU, and I would hope everyone would agree a desirable one but o say the EEC/EU is that "first and foremost" is certainly an over exaggeration. The EU encompases so much more than that.Pulpstar said:
It's always been first and foremost an attempt at an eternal peace treaty between France and Germany.AlastairMeeks said:
I agree and I would go further. The idea of the EU as just a trading bloc has little currency outside the UK.FF43 said:
I would say removal of borders and free movement is at least as important part of what the EU is, as is free trade. There is neither total freedom of movement nor free trade, but both are real and much more developed than anywhere else in the world.Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach. The EU is at its pragmatic best as a trading bloc. At its worst when it goes all idealistic.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nah. Schengen is dumb. Free movement is great but Schengen itself is a massive security hole that aids crime and terrorism. That is why so many countries end up suspending it when it goes wrong.rcs1000 said:
Interesting, I think Schengen is great, and would sign up in a heartbeat. The EU? Not so much.dixiedean said:Re Labour. There is a lot of inductive reasoning going on here.
Starting position. I don't want a Labour Party. Therefore I will argue from my conclusion backwards to reach a Tory anti-EU v LD pro-EU nexus.
The fact is, even under a leader as spectacularly unimpressive as Corbyn, there is still a hardcore of c 25% who want a social democratic/socialist government, even as Brexit sucks all the oxygen out of debate.
Me? I don't much care about Brexit. NoDeal is bonkers. So would be Schengen. I would be happy with in or out, provided it had support.
But I want Corbyn gone, as a means to a Labour government. There are a lot of us about. We aren't going away soon.
[...]
Schengen transforms how people think of borders within the EU. This affects people at the individual level: how they work, how they travel, how they live. It enables regions of adjoining countries to work together, to make broken regions into a coherent unitary area.
Ironically, three years of arguing about the Northern Irish border still hasn’t persuaded the British of the merits of minimal borders.0 -
fpt
Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.HYUFD said:I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy
You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.
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I remember the days when saying such things about pollsters would have brought down the ban hammer.
It must be Brexit.
(Of course, if the pollsters are so outraged by ComRes, they will doubtless be putting out their own polling on the issue, gratis....)3 -
They already have.MarqueeMark said:I remember the days when saying such things about pollsters would have brught down the ban hammer.
It must be Brexit.
(Of course, if the pollsters are so outraged by ComRes, they will doubtless be putting out their own polling on the issue, gratis....)
https://twitter.com/chriscurtis94/status/1161018469451784192?s=21
I believe they will be polling on this again soon.0 -
It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.0
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Mike. You’ve missed the most important tweet about this poll.
It appears ComRes have broken MRS/BPC rules with this poll.0 -
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
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Rules are so 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike. You’ve missed the most important tweet about this poll.
It appears ComRes have broken MRS/BPC rules with this poll.0 -
And I see ComRis did that thing of referring to 'Mr Johnson'/'The prime minister'/'Al' as the chummier 'Boris'. Okay, I do it, but it's hardly maintaining scientific neutrality.0
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Is this another bus?Mysticrose said:It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.
IT ISN'T 54% IT'S ONLY 44%
"Only" 44% - so still quite a lot then.......?2 -
If the questions were asked in the order given above by Mike, it looks like a classic of Yes Prime Minister polling.CarlottaVance said:
Is this another bus?Mysticrose said:It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.
IT ISN'T 54% IT'S ONLY 44%
"Only" 44% - so still quite a lot then.......?0 -
Yes, you can legitimately leave out don't knows from a VI poll on the basis that when it comes to voting there is indeed an option not to take part at all, by abstaining or spoiling the ballot.
But if you are polling whether people support, oppose, or are unsure about a proposal, they really should be reporting all three categories, since you're trying to discover the balance of opinion across a whole population, and not a subset who may or may not be likely to take any particular action as a consequence.
This is quite obvious if you imagine a highly obscure and arcane issue where almost everyone doesn't know and only a tiny minority have a view.
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Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.
It reminds me very much of this wonderful 30 second sketch featuring Rowan Atkinson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4VUQTLznwU&list=PLE2BF3F639231952C
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Still it will be fun for a pollster to be expelled from the MRS/BPCGallowgate said:
Rules are so 2010.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike. You’ve missed the most important tweet about this poll.
It appears ComRes have broken MRS/BPC rules with this poll.0 -
I always assumed that the main title is duke and duchess is the wife of a Duke, so Queen Elizabeth II could be called the Duchess of Edinburgh, but she is the Duke of Lancster.ydoethur said:
I believe it's because the 'lawful sovereign' was declared in 1399 to be at the same time 'the Duke of Normandy and Duke of Lancaster.' So due to an oversight they made those titles gender-neutral.TheScreamingEagles said:
Not as mad as the Queen, she still calls herself the Duke of Normandy.kle4 said:
And I'm still mad about itChris said:
You do realise that King John lost Normandy 815 years ago?Byronic said:
I get the feeble joke, but as a matter of historic fact, England did not invade Ireland until England was ruled by French-speaking Normans, an elite who did this - very much - under the flag of a Norman/Angevin/French speaking empire. And the Normans were copying their Viking ancestors.Chris said:Finally, perhaps we have a way out of this mess.
All we have to do is convince the Irish that it was the French who started all this trouble between us, and for all those centuries they thought we were ruling over them it was actually Normans and Angevins.
Then they'll be on our side against the furriners, and everything wll be OK.
After that, yes, the English took up the habit of invading Ireland with absolute gusto, and committed hideous atrocities in doing it, but saying England or the English were the only villains in this post-Viking drama is absurd, and, factually, very wrong.
PS - Why is she the Duke of Normandy and not the Duchess of Normandy? She wouldn’t be the first Queen with gender identity issues.
But it may be as simple as because the title descends with the monarch and you cannot inherit Dukedoms through a duchess.0 -
According to YouGov, it helps Labour. However I think their reasoning is flawed, because it assumes that everyone was telling the truth about who they voted for when asked in 2017. Given Grenfell and the general polling just after the election, it's very possible some people lied. I don't see any other explanation for why Labour voters suffer this false recall so much more than Tories given that both parties have so many disillusioned voters.Pulpstar said:Does Comres methodology help or hinder Labour with the apparent low recall (ceteris paribus) ?
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This is a good point, he should be referred to as either the Prime minister, Boris Johnson or Johnson by anyone purporting to be official news media or a pollster.Stark_Dawning said:And I see ComRis did that thing of referring to 'Mr Johnson'/'The prime minister'/'Al' as the chummier 'Boris'. Okay, I do it, but it's hardly maintaining scientific neutrality.
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Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.
It reminds me very much of this wonderful 30 second sketch featuring Rowan Atkinson:
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A good point.AlastairMeeks said:
If the questions were asked in the order given above by Mike, it looks like a classic of Yes Prime Minister polling.CarlottaVance said:
Is this another bus?Mysticrose said:It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.
IT ISN'T 54% IT'S ONLY 44%
"Only" 44% - so still quite a lot then.......?
Although even taken individually the questions are worded to encourage a yes answer.0 -
One expects the Telegraph to publish baseless propaganda - it has long ceased to have any pretensions to the objective news coverage for which it was once well known.TheScreamingEagles said:Mike. You’ve missed the most important tweet about this poll.
It appears ComRes have broken MRS/BPC rules with this poll.
But it is surprising that Comres allowed itself to be used in this way.0 -
Yep, definitely no terrorism in the 70s and 80s. What an innocent time it was...Mysticrose said:
Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.0 -
Or a minority of people, as the old-fashioned of us would have it.CarlottaVance said:
Is this another bus?Mysticrose said:It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.
IT ISN'T 54% IT'S ONLY 44%
"Only" 44% - so still quite a lot then.......?
I find it worrying that as many as 44% want to suspend democracy for the purpose of enacting a particular interpretation of a democratic vote.
On the upside that's a lot of people to be taxed to pay for the costs of it all. So there is that.0 -
With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre0 -
Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."
Surely that's an innovation?0 -
Oddly I don't recall people getting upset when don't knows were ignored from previous polls.
Haven't we previously been told that people attack polls because they don't like the results ?
Whatever the situation people will spin the numbers that suits them best.
As an example take the employment / unemployment numbers.
Last month unemployment fell by 51k over the quarter but employment only rose by 28k - guess which aspect leavers focused on and which remainers chose.
This month unemployment has increased by 31k over the quarter but employment has increased by 114k.
Now which aspect will leavers focus on and which will remainers focus on ?3 -
That poll had a majority for delay even if you included DKs.Chelyabinsk said:
I wasn’t creating a majority where none existed, unlike ComRes/The Telegraph.
Next.1 -
Lords Cooper and Ashcroft were on first name terms with David Cameron (pbuh).Chris said:Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."
Surely that's an innovation?0 -
Also worth remembering that the Chinese authorities have not ruled out using force to recover Taiwan. They may use HK as a test case.CarlottaVance said:With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre
If they use lethal force in HK I expect a lot of huffing and puffing in the rest of the world but no action.0 -
So this way of presenting polling is only misleading if it straddles 50%? How does that work?TheScreamingEagles said:
That poll had a majority for delay even if you included DKs.Chelyabinsk said:
I wasn’t creating a majority where none existed, unlike ComRes/The Telegraph.
Next.2 -
Why did we accept a leasehold? We should have demanded a freehold on Hong Kong.Cyclefree said:
Also worth remembering that the Chinese authorities have not ruled out using force to recover Taiwan. They may use HK as a test case.CarlottaVance said:With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre
If they use lethal force in HK I expect a lot of huffing and puffing in the rest of the world but no action.0 -
A lot of flaws with this polling but a general rule isn’t that you shouldn’t confuse a plurality with a majority, especially if you ignore DKs.Stereotomy said:
So this way of presenting polling is only misleading if it straddles 50%? How does that work?TheScreamingEagles said:
That poll had a majority for delay even if you included DKs.Chelyabinsk said:
I wasn’t creating a majority where none existed, unlike ComRes/The Telegraph.
Next.0 -
I gather ComRes have acknowledged that their polling format can be improved.
Here's a sneak preview of their next poll:
1. I love Boris.
Agree/Don't Know
2. Ignorance is Strength.
Agree/Don't Know
3. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Agree/Don't Know
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That is jarring.Stark_Dawning said:And I see ComRis did that thing of referring to 'Mr Johnson'/'The prime minister'/'Al' as the chummier 'Boris'. Okay, I do it, but it's hardly maintaining scientific neutrality.
Next poll for the Telegraph - Who do you feel would make the better PM?
(i) Corbyn/Swinson etc
(ii) BORIS0 -
We had a freehold on Hong Kong Island and Kowloon. It was only the new territories that were leased for 99 years.TheScreamingEagles said:
Why did we accept a leasehold? We should have demanded a freehold on Hong Kong.Cyclefree said:
Also worth remembering that the Chinese authorities have not ruled out using force to recover Taiwan. They may use HK as a test case.CarlottaVance said:With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre
If they use lethal force in HK I expect a lot of huffing and puffing in the rest of the world but no action.0 -
It was the only way to make the island of Hong Kong sustainable and I doubt those that did the deal could see into the future.TheScreamingEagles said:
Why did we accept a leasehold? We should have demanded a freehold on Hong Kong.Cyclefree said:
Also worth remembering that the Chinese authorities have not ruled out using force to recover Taiwan. They may use HK as a test case.CarlottaVance said:With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre
If they use lethal force in HK I expect a lot of huffing and puffing in the rest of the world but no action.0 -
I think the plan is to have a smiley face next to the word BORIS.kinabalu said:
That is jarring.Stark_Dawning said:And I see ComRis did that thing of referring to 'Mr Johnson'/'The prime minister'/'Al' as the chummier 'Boris'. Okay, I do it, but it's hardly maintaining scientific neutrality.
Next poll for the Telegraph - Who do you feel would make the better PM?
(i) Corbyn/Swinson etc
(ii) BORIS0 -
Looks like it!AlastairMeeks said:
If the questions were asked in the order given above by Mike, it looks like a classic of Yes Prime Minister polling.CarlottaVance said:
Is this another bus?Mysticrose said:It's tempting to blame Cummings for this deceit.
IT ISN'T 54% IT'S ONLY 44%
"Only" 44% - so still quite a lot then.......?
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/The-Telegraph_August-2019-Tables.pdf
After voting intention questions the questions seem to go:
- Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
Parliament is more in tune than Boris with the British public
- Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
Parliament is out of touch with the British public
- Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
On Brexit, most MPs seem to ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas
- Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
The Queen should remain above politics and refuse to get involved in Brexit
- Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?
Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it
Then questions on N. Ire, and more on Boris. So classic priming to get people to agree with "including suspending parliament if necessary".
The Yougov survey quoted above which has Support proroguing parliament at 24% oppose 47% seems to be asked in a more neutral way:
https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/f3umz13qvw/InternalResults_190610_Brexit_W.pdf
but it is from June.0 -
That's a non sequitur. Of course there was terrorism still in the 1980's but it was also a time of considerable optimism in western economies, which spilled over into fresh political ideas. One of which was Schengen. It began in June 1985.williamglenn said:
Yep, definitely no terrorism in the 70s and 80s. What an innocent time it was...Mysticrose said:
Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.
I don't think anyone sensible would seriously deny that the international movement of people and global terrorist threat have been at an unprecedented levels since c. 2000
Schengen belongs to a different era. Fortunately, the ever-pragmatic EU have realised that and are casually making alterations or, in some cases, outright ignoring it. I think this is something British people regularly get wrong about the EU. It's not static or monolithic. It's always amending or, when it suits a country's interests, by-passing certain rules and regs. If something is 'dumb' to use Richard Tyndall's apt description, those who wish to ignore it may do so.
Britain can happily remain a member of the EU without subscribing to Schengen.0 -
I think this criticism is about right.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/11612022967489454081 -
- "With the past vote filter down, I can't even see! How am I supposed to fight?!"
- "Your opinion polls can deceive you - don't trust them!"
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This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.0 -
The ComRes questions:
Do you agree or disagree with the following statements? (Agree / Disagree / DK)
- Parliament is more in tune than Boris with the British public (25 / 40 / 35)
- Parliament is out of touch with the British public (77 / 11 / 12)
- On Brexit, most MPs seem to ignore the wishes of voters and push their own agendas (78 / 9 / 12)
- The Queen should remain above politics and refuse to get involved in Brexit (62 / 19 / 19)
- Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it (44 / 34 / 19)
- Brexit should be halted if problems over the Northern Ireland border threaten to split the Union (36 / 37 / 25)
- Boris Johnson has been a better Prime Minister so far than I expected he would be (38 / 33 / 29)
- Boris Johnson cannot unify the country as Prime Minister of the UK (45 / 26 / 29)
https://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/The-Telegraph_August-2019-Tables.pdf0 -
Ach, it’s only the Micks.eristdoof said:
Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.
It reminds me very much of this wonderful 30 second sketch featuring Rowan Atkinson:0 -
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.1 -
The furore over one opinion poll suggests a level of panic and denial about public opinion which is quite sad but entirely in line with the current state of British politics. No wonder the public take a dim view of all of it.2
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TheScreamingEagles said:
Lords Cooper and Ashcroft were on first name terms with David Cameron (pbuh).Chris said:Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."
Surely that's an innovation?
It's one of those irregular verbs again.Tissue_Price said:I think this criticism is about right.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/11612022967489454083 -
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I'm being picky and I totally knew what you meant but to be nerdily pedantic, a push poll is a poll that isn't really a poll at all, and the idea is to push the person being called. For example, "How would you vote if you heard that X was widely thought to be a pedophile?"Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
I don't think there's a snappy name for this kind of poll, but it's a poll with slanted questions.1 -
Oh sorry, on the Ireland 'point' we have the Good Friday Agreement.
The history of the troubles is so viscerally present that Ireland has to be treated with enormous sensitivity. The Good Friday Agreement is a critical part of the special situation in place. It's deeply disturbing that some on the far right appear ready to throw Ireland, and are even relishing the prospect, to the dogs. Appalling.
But that's what I mean about the EU. It can handle pragmatic solutions. Given the stupidity of Britain's decision to Brexit, it came up with the backstop, something that protects Ireland.
As has recently been pointed out, the recalcitrance is largely from the Brexiteers.0 -
Have you seen the Telegraph in the last 33 years?Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
Good on you if you haven't. ;-)0 -
The centre is not holding, it’s true.Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?0 -
I have fond memories of the Telegraph when it used to be a newspaper.Mango said:
Have you seen the Telegraph in the last 33 years?Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
Good on you if you haven't. ;-)0 -
Love that poemGardenwalker said:
The centre is not holding, it’s true.Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?0 -
Yes you are right.edmundintokyo said:
I'm being picky and I totally knew what you meant but to be nerdily pedantic, a push poll is a poll that isn't really a poll at all, and the idea is to push the person being called. For example, "How would you vote if you heard that X was widely thought to be a pedophile?"Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
I don't think there's a snappy name for this kind of poll, but it's a poll with slanted questions.
It’s slanted. It’s a “crooked poll”.0 -
Boris, obviously.Gardenwalker said:
The centre is not holding, it’s true.Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?0 -
The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.2
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More fruit from Bozo's orchard of magic money trees:
"Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said an additional £2.5 million will help pay for the installation of more than 1,000 new [EV] charging points on streets around the country"0 -
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/956980337791455232TheScreamingEagles said:
That poll had a majority for delay even if you included DKs.Chelyabinsk said:
I wasn’t creating a majority where none existed, unlike ComRes/The Telegraph.
Next.
Googling 'site:politicalbetting.com "don't knows" exclude' is eye-opening.another_richard said:Oddly I don't recall people getting upset when don't knows were ignored from previous polls.
Haven't we previously been told that people attack polls because they don't like the results ?
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Pretty much.AndyJS said:The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.
Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.
Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.
Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.
I don’t know what the solution is.1 -
You don’t understand polling or context do you.Chelyabinsk said:
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/956980337791455232TheScreamingEagles said:
That poll had a majority for delay even if you included DKs.Chelyabinsk said:
I wasn’t creating a majority where none existed, unlike ComRes/The Telegraph.
Next.
Googling 'site:politicalbetting.com "don't knows" exclude' is eye-opening.another_richard said:Oddly I don't recall people getting upset when don't knows were ignored from previous polls.
Haven't we previously been told that people attack polls because they don't like the results ?
There’s a reason why the MRS/BPC are strict on pollsters reporting DKs.0 -
As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.
Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.0 -
Of course we are recalcitrant. We want to cut cords with the EU so why would we want to remain bound to it?Mysticrose said:Oh sorry, on the Ireland 'point' we have the Good Friday Agreement.
The history of the troubles is so viscerally present that Ireland has to be treated with enormous sensitivity. The Good Friday Agreement is a critical part of the special situation in place. It's deeply disturbing that some on the far right appear ready to throw Ireland, and are even relishing the prospect, to the dogs. Appalling.
But that's what I mean about the EU. It can handle pragmatic solutions. Given the stupidity of Britain's decision to Brexit, it came up with the backstop, something that protects Ireland.
As has recently been pointed out, the recalcitrance is largely from the Brexiteers.0 -
This polling shenanigans wouldn't happen if we had an all female cabinet...0
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This one may be more apt for Brexit:Mysticrose said:
Love that poemGardenwalker said:
The centre is not holding, it’s true.Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51294/waiting-for-the-barbarians0 -
That all-female cabinet idea was frankly damaging to the Remainer cause.PeterMannion said:This polling shenanigans wouldn't happen if we had an all female cabinet...
0 -
I know. Shamefully transphobic as well.Gardenwalker said:
That all-female cabinet idea was frankly damaging to the Remainer cause.PeterMannion said:This polling shenanigans wouldn't happen if we had an all female cabinet...
0 -
(pigs - be utterly horrified)?TheScreamingEagles said:
Lords Cooper and Ashcroft were on first name terms with David Cameron (pbuh).Chris said:Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."
Surely that's an innovation?0 -
I've said it before, and I'm only half-joking, that social media is the worst invention since the atomic bomb.Gardenwalker said:
Pretty much.AndyJS said:The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.
Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.
Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.
Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.
I don’t know what the solution is.1 -
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-117842100 -
Peace be upon him.MarqueeMark said:
(pigs - be utterly horrified)?TheScreamingEagles said:
Lords Cooper and Ashcroft were on first name terms with David Cameron (pbuh).Chris said:Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."
Surely that's an innovation?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_be_upon_him0 -
More rough beasts than you can shake a stick at.Gardenwalker said:
The centre is not holding, it’s true.Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?0 -
We were offered it at the time, but it was an extra £1,000 and we wanted a new sofa from DFS. Our conveyancer told us not to worry, 99 years is a long way away.TheScreamingEagles said:
Why did we accept a leasehold? We should have demanded a freehold on Hong Kong.Cyclefree said:
Also worth remembering that the Chinese authorities have not ruled out using force to recover Taiwan. They may use HK as a test case.CarlottaVance said:With the protests in Hong Kong, its worth remembering what happened in Tiananmen:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre
If they use lethal force in HK I expect a lot of huffing and puffing in the rest of the world but no action.0 -
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.AndyJS said:"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-117842100 -
All went a bit tits up over the lack of ethnic quotas...to coin a phrase.Gardenwalker said:
That all-female cabinet idea was frankly damaging to the Remainer cause.PeterMannion said:This polling shenanigans wouldn't happen if we had an all female cabinet...
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If you think Britain (wot, no NI?) can happily remain a member of the EU, you clearly haven't been paying attention.Mysticrose said:
That's a non sequitur. Of course there was terrorism still in the 1980's but it was also a time of considerable optimism in western economies, which spilled over into fresh political ideas. One of which was Schengen. It began in June 1985.williamglenn said:
Yep, definitely no terrorism in the 70s and 80s. What an innocent time it was...Mysticrose said:
Read what Richard Tyndall put. Impossible to disagree with him.eristdoof said:
The UK and Ireland has had an arrangement which is Schengen in all but name. Do you find that the UK/Ireland border is also "dumb"?Mysticrose said:
I completely agree with you. Despite being a Remainer, Schengen is as you say 'dumb' and for the reasons you state. It's one of the EU's weakest links and a good example of political overreach.
For the millions of people who live close to a Schengen land border the Agreement is the complete opposite of "dumb".
In this day and age the laudable aim of frictionless borders between nations is baloney. Many European countries now recognise this and far more checks have come in. Places have turned their backs on Schengen.
Schengen belongs to 1980's Metropolitan elitism. Lovely idea for lovely people in a lovely cuddly era. This is the age of terrorism and trafficking.
I don't think anyone sensible would seriously deny that the international movement of people and global terrorist threat have been at an unprecedented levels since c. 2000
Schengen belongs to a different era. Fortunately, the ever-pragmatic EU have realised that and are casually making alterations or, in some cases, outright ignoring it. I think this is something British people regularly get wrong about the EU. It's not static or monolithic. It's always amending or, when it suits a country's interests, by-passing certain rules and regs. If something is 'dumb' to use Richard Tyndall's apt description, those who wish to ignore it may do so.
Britain can happily remain a member of the EU without subscribing to Schengen.0 -
Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.4 -
Trouble with all this is even if you include the 'don't knows' a clear majority (44% vs 37%) are still in favour.
I also don't recall this stream of invective about dodgy 'Peoples Vote' polls.3 -
YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.Gardenwalker said:As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.
Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.0 -
No the idea was demented at inception.felix said:
All went a bit tits up over the lack of ethnic quotas...to coin a phrase.Gardenwalker said:
That all-female cabinet idea was frankly damaging to the Remainer cause.PeterMannion said:This polling shenanigans wouldn't happen if we had an all female cabinet...
Protecting the country from a No Deal Brexit is not an opportunity to make a symbolic stand for gender equality. Moreover, it just turns off (at least) 50% of the population.1 -
Them and leavers in this countryGardenwalker said:
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.AndyJS said:"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210
0 -
More alarmist nonsense from an hysterical remain campaign. Just because Remain lost a vote does not mean "the West is lost".Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
Do you have any idea what a grim view the general public takes about this sort of nonsense?0 -
I think you need to find some better metaphors. Your current one is leading you astray.Philip_Thompson said:
Of course we are recalcitrant. We want to cut cords with the EU so why would we want to remain bound to it?Mysticrose said:Oh sorry, on the Ireland 'point' we have the Good Friday Agreement.
The history of the troubles is so viscerally present that Ireland has to be treated with enormous sensitivity. The Good Friday Agreement is a critical part of the special situation in place. It's deeply disturbing that some on the far right appear ready to throw Ireland, and are even relishing the prospect, to the dogs. Appalling.
But that's what I mean about the EU. It can handle pragmatic solutions. Given the stupidity of Britain's decision to Brexit, it came up with the backstop, something that protects Ireland.
As has recently been pointed out, the recalcitrance is largely from the Brexiteers.0 -
We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.
0 -
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.Philip_Thompson said:
Them and leavers in this countryGardenwalker said:
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.AndyJS said:"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210
Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.0 -
Why limit it in that way?Gardenwalker said:Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.
I'd offer citizenship to anyone from HK (unless they have a serious criminal conviction or are otherwise undesirable). They seem a hard-working and enterprising people. Whether they would want to come to an island governed by people who think that suspending democracy is a good idea is another matter, of course.1 -
Do you mean with or without Don't Knows?basicbridge said:
More alarmist nonsense from an hysterical remain campaign. Just because Remain lost a vote does not mean "the West is lost".Dura_Ace said:
This is the new politics. The West is lost.Gardenwalker said:This look like a push poll.
What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.
Do you have any idea what a grim view the general public takes about this sort of nonsense?0 -
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What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.basicbridge said:We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.
1 -
From Wikipedia: The Census and Statistics Department estimated Hong Kong's population at 7,482,500 in mid-2019. About half the population have some form of British nationality, a legacy of colonial rule; 3.4 million residents have British National (Overseas) status...Gardenwalker said:Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.
British National (Overseas), abbreviated BN(O), is a class of British nationality that was granted by voluntary registration to British Dependent Territories citizens who were Hong Kong residents before the transfer of sovereignty to China on 1 July 1997. Nationals of this class are subject to immigration controls when entering the United Kingdom and do not have the automatic right of abode there or in Hong Kong.
Despite petitions from Governors David Wilson and Chris Patten asking for full citizenship to be conferred on the colony's residents, Parliament ultimately refused to grant all Hongkongers right of abode in the United Kingdom, citing difficulty in absorbing a large number of new citizens and that doing so would contradict the Joint Declaration.Instead, it offered citizenship to only 50,000 qualified residents and their dependents".
Strikes me as a bit early to be tearing up the Joint Declaration but ask me again in a few weeks.0
