I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy
Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.
You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.
I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.
Why limit it in that way?
I'd offer citizenship to anyone from HK (unless they have a serious criminal conviction or are otherwise undesirable). They seem a hard-working and enterprising people. Whether they would want to come to an island governed by people who think that suspending democracy is a good idea is another matter, of course.
If we had the population density of Canada or Australia I would be in favour of giving everyone in Hong Kong the right to move to the UK. In fact I don't know why those two countries don't consider it.
Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.
From Wikipedia: The Census and Statistics Department estimated Hong Kong's population at 7,482,500 in mid-2019. About half the population have some form of British nationality, a legacy of colonial rule; 3.4 million residents have British National (Overseas) status...
British National (Overseas), abbreviated BN(O), is a class of British nationality that was granted by voluntary registration to British Dependent Territories citizens who were Hong Kong residents before the transfer of sovereignty to China on 1 July 1997. Nationals of this class are subject to immigration controls when entering the United Kingdom and do not have the automatic right of abode there or in Hong Kong.
Despite petitions from Governors David Wilson and Chris Patten asking for full citizenship to be conferred on the colony's residents, Parliament ultimately refused to grant all Hongkongers right of abode in the United Kingdom, citing difficulty in absorbing a large number of new citizens and that doing so would contradict the Joint Declaration.Instead, it offered citizenship to only 50,000 qualified residents and their dependents".
Strikes me as a bit early to be tearing up the Joint Declaration but ask me again in a few weeks.
That’s very interesting.
If I understand it correctly it says that half of the Hong Kong population has “some form of British nationality” but that this is mostly BN(O) which does not confer automatic right of abode.
Britain could also announce a streamlined route for BN(O) holders to become full citizens.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
Them and leavers in this country
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers. Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
The "proroguers" are by and large the "just bloody well get on with Brexit and stop fannying about making excuses" brigade.
Those doing the fannying about making excuses are the rogues.
We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.
Cyclefree implied no such thing and was clear about that.
Cyclefree implied that the Yugoslavia break up was what potentiually happened when countries didn't agree on a divorce. It was set out in direct counterpoint to the Velvet Divorce.
Why quote the Yugoslavia break up if it was utterly irrelevant to the argument, except to make an implication by default.
I am glad that seemingly everyone now accepts the inappropriateness of its inclusion.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
Them and leavers in this country
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers. Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
The "proroguers" are by and large the "just bloody well get on with Brexit and stop fannying about making excuses" brigade.
Those doing the fannying about making excuses are the rogues.
The “bloody well get on with Brexit” gang are so bored and fed up they are willing to sacrifice democracy and the Union.
There’s no excuse, even ignorance, for this.
Brexit was always going to be a multi-year process.
For some reason this was not explained by the Vote Leave crowd.
As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.
Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.
YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy
Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.
You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.
I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
I raise you with Boris having 'a chance of spaffing in the face of national pessimism' from Byronic yesterday.
As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.
Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.
YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
Not as bad as Amazon throwing adverts for things already bought, or other versions of things you only buy once in a blue moon like vacuums. Or Hotel.com emails for hotels in everywhere you've ever browsed that continue to arrive even after you physically arrive in a hotel actually booked with the same website.
As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.
Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.
YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
I nearly bought an Evo VII just so the videos were not wasted on me.
The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.
Pretty much.
Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.
Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.
Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.
I don’t know what the solution is.
I half agree with you, but the part "this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al." is odd. There have been quite a few authoritarian populist governments in the 20th Century which arose without social media. One of them is very well known, but I'm not allowed to mention it due to an internet law.
I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy
Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.
You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.
I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
I raise you with Boris having 'a chance of spaffing in the face of national pessimism' from Byronic yesterday.
We don't get many posters with a turn of phrase like that.
The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.
Pretty much.
Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.
Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.
Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.
I don’t know what the solution is.
I half agree with you, but the part "this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al." is odd. There have been quite a few authoritarian populist governments in the 20th Century which arose without social media. One of them is very well known, but I'm not allowed to mention it due to an internet law.
Sure, but I’m talking about today, not the 1930s.
In other populism news, I see Jair Bosonaro plans to appoint his 35 year old son as Brazilian Ambassador to the US. Bolsonaro Jnr cites his relevant experience as “working at the US fast food chain Popeyes” for some months.
Brian Shaw 20,000 calorie diet and how to run a fast 5k are currently recommended for me in my Youtube vids. Those two are... incompatible Unsurprisingly, Scott Manley is another.
The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.
The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.
We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.
Cyclefree implied no such thing and was clear about that.
Cyclefree implied that the Yugoslavia break up was what potentiually happened when countries didn't agree on a divorce. It was set out in direct counterpoint to the Velvet Divorce.
Why quote the Yugoslavia break up if it was utterly irrelevant to the argument, except to make an implication by default.
I am glad that seemingly everyone now accepts the inappropriateness of its inclusion.
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.
The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.
So - the Conservative Party have learnt lessons from the poll tax and the subsequent 13 years of Tony Blair/Gordon Brown? Colour me shocked.....
What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election?
Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
In the end it turned out FTPA means bugger all as the Opposition (and especially this particular Opposaition) will always vote for a general election in all circumstances as its the only way they can ever achieve power.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.
Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.
And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.
Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.
And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!
There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?
The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.
The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.
At the time I lived in Wandsworth and for 2/3 years we paid zero tax. My mum in the Ne benefited hugely yhere from the single person [widow] discount. The policy was flawed but the idea of everyone in a household paying a share was sound.
Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.
Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.
And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!
There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
Yes, that thought about Ozil also occurred to me.
Didn't Gerrard "steal" the girlfriend of a Mr Big in Liverpool?
And there was also that barrister who wanted to break George Best's legs for the same reason.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
Them and leavers in this country
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers. Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
You can get 70plus grand for being a MP and if you kiss the right arses you can upgrade to a Govt post for six figures. You can employ your family members as assistants and claim that on expenses. It requires no heavy lifting and the reviews are only once every five years. You can be thick as horseshit and still thrive, as several MPs have already proved. If I had no sense of shame and they would take me, I'd take the job in a New York minute.
Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.
Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.
And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!
There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
Yes, that thought about Ozil also occurred to me.
Didn't Gerrard "steal" the girlfriend of a Mr Big in Liverpool?
And there was also that barrister who wanted to break George Best's legs for the same reason.
Most of the issues around violence threatened/inflicted on footballers are down to massive gambling debts player shave built up.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
I think at least that many would seriously think about it - and that most would chicken out.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
But total only 44 EVs between them, fewer than California. Seeing states like WI, MI, PA and NC showing fairly dark brown in that map does not bode well for Trump.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
Them and leavers in this country
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers. Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
Wrong in every way. As per usual.
You’re the same. I know you comfort yourself that “true” Brexit is democratic and liberating, but you are nothing but an (angry) useful idiot.
It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.
I've got some generic Democrat bets on, including one I'd really really like to win (It's against a personal friend). Of all the likely nominees (My big 3 decent greens), Warren's H2H polling causes me the most concern.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
It’s true though. Granted, you may have a different view of “good”.
What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election?
Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....
I note that a lot of people are stating that they can't recall the last time a poll was attacked. I can think of at least two cases
1:'During one of the recent elections/referenda a poll was published in (I think) the Evening Standard. It changed its methodology that week so published two sets of figures, before change and after change. The paper ignored the new methodology and published the old, and that was criticised.
2: You may also recall the excoriation YouGov got when it started using MRP and said Canterbury would go Lab.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
It’s true though. Granted, you may have a different view of “good”.
That is the sort of certain "fact" that you rightly ridicule others for. I honestly can't believe that you even think it.
Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
You and me both.
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
You can get 70plus grand for being a MP and if you kiss the right arses you can upgrade to a Govt post for six figures. You can employ your family members as assistants and claim that on expenses. It requires no heavy lifting and the reviews are only once every five years. You can be thick as horseshit and still thrive, as several MPs have already proved. If I had no sense of shame and they would take me, I'd take the job in a New York minute.
Sheffield Hallam might be just the ticket for you then... the current MP has set a low bar
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.
Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.
Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.
I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?
It's a view I suppose...
It only needs 2 or 3, not 30 and if they are standing down at the next election anyway...
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.
Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.
Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.
I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
Them and leavers in this country
Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers. Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.
Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
Wrong in every way. As per usual.
You’re the same. I know you comfort yourself that “true” Brexit is democratic and liberating, but you are nothing but an (angry) useful idiot.
You long ago proved you are mentally incapable of understanding people, politics or just about anything really. It is one of the reasons your side lost and are now thrashing around looking for excuses. Look to yourself. The anger and failure you claim to see in others is simply a projection of your own inadequacies. The rest of us have moved on.
It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.
If Labour were serious about blockong No Deal, they would accept a temporary leader of a Remain alliance that isn't Corbyn. Anyone with a bone of decency knows that lots of MPs will not put someone who commemorates the killers of innocent Jewish athletes. Giving the authority and dignity of the Prime Ministerial office, and the ability to fight an election on his terms, to him is a gross insult to British Jews. It would make clear to us that parliament does not have solidarity with us and we do not really belong in this country.
I would have added . You will do anything to keep your red box, you silly b**** ! Totally shameless. And what did she say about Johnson in the 2016 EU ref debate ?
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.
Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.
Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.
I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
In what way don't we compete with Europe at the moment? My company has any number of European competitors, as well as many others from other parts of the world. Brexit will hand our European competition advantages over us and is likely to mean we have to open up an office in the EU27, so diverting resources, investments and job opportunities from our UK operation.
I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?
It's a view I suppose...
Many will be retiring and some, like Grieve, will have to stand as independents anyway. Maybe as a Unity Remain candidate.
"Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."
What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election?
Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....
I do think all this talk of Johnson choosing a general election date after 31 October must have made the 2/3 majority route to an election much more problematical for him. Are 2/3 of MPs going to give him that power?
So it is fine to report 46% for Scottish independence including Don't Knows from an Ashcroft poll as 'Brexit now means a majority for Scottish independence' but not fine to report 44% for suspending Parliament to achieve Brexit including Don't Knows in a Comres poll as in any way a meaningful result at all?
It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.
If Labour were serious about blockong No Deal, they would accept a temporary leader of a Remain alliance that isn't Corbyn. Anyone with a bone of decency knows that lots of MPs will not put someone who commemorates the killers of innocent Jewish athletes. Giving the authority and dignity of the Prime Ministerial office, and the ability to fight an election on his terms, to him is a gross insult to British Jews. It would make clear to us that parliament does not have solidarity with us and we do not really belong in this country.
I'm going to ignore the attempt to change the subject because I've already commented here many times how sick I am of being told that all Jews think the same way, with the implication that those of us who don't aren't really Jews.
Instead, getting back to the actual point, even if people conclude that Labour aren't serious about blocking No Deal, it's still deeply damaging to the Greens and, especially, the Lib Dems if people also conclude that they aren't serious about it either, because that's their USP.
The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.
Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.
Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.
I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.
That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.
From Wikipedia: The Census and Statistics Department estimated Hong Kong's population at 7,482,500 in mid-2019. About half the population have some form of British nationality, a legacy of colonial rule; 3.4 million residents have British National (Overseas) status...
British National (Overseas), abbreviated BN(O), is a class of British nationality that was granted by voluntary registration to British Dependent Territories citizens who were Hong Kong residents before the transfer of sovereignty to China on 1 July 1997. Nationals of this class are subject to immigration controls when entering the United Kingdom and do not have the automatic right of abode there or in Hong Kong.
Despite petitions from Governors David Wilson and Chris Patten asking for full citizenship to be conferred on the colony's residents, Parliament ultimately refused to grant all Hongkongers right of abode in the United Kingdom, citing difficulty in absorbing a large number of new citizens and that doing so would contradict the Joint Declaration.Instead, it offered citizenship to only 50,000 qualified residents and their dependents".
Strikes me as a bit early to be tearing up the Joint Declaration but ask me again in a few weeks.
That’s very interesting.
If I understand it correctly it says that half of the Hong Kong population has “some form of British nationality” but that this is mostly BN(O) which does not confer automatic right of abode.
Britain could also announce a streamlined route for BN(O) holders to become full citizens.
What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election?
Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....
I do think all this talk of Johnson choosing a general election date after 31 October must have made the 2/3 majority route to an election much more problematical for him. Are 2/3 of MPs going to give him that power?
Corbyn gets his Brexit. He can hope it comes with a large side-order of chaos. Suits him fine.....
So it is fine to report 46% for Scottish independence including Don't Knows from an Ashcroft poll as 'Brexit now means a majority for Scottish independence' but not fine to report 44% for suspending Parliament to achieve Brexit including Don't Knows in a Comres poll as in any way a meaningful result at all?
Wrong again as usual, it was 46% excluding Don't Knows, or is it the usual Tory deliberate fibbing
I never like Agree/Disagree questions, because they're leading, and leave no room for nuance.
It's interesting that actual market research and academic studies tend not to use such questions but instead ask people to rank or score propositions. Why don't political pollsters do that?
Comments
It's one dodgy poll to sell papers and get publicity. And judging by some of the hysterics, it's worked.
Your language and analogies were foolish and intemperate, a fact that by default you now seem to acknowledge.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1160962902381101056
If I understand it correctly it says that half of the Hong Kong population has “some form of British nationality” but that this is mostly BN(O) which does not confer automatic right of abode.
Britain could also announce a streamlined route for BN(O) holders to become full citizens.
Those doing the fannying about making excuses are the rogues.
Why quote the Yugoslavia break up if it was utterly irrelevant to the argument, except to make an implication by default.
I am glad that seemingly everyone now accepts the inappropriateness of its inclusion.
There’s no excuse, even ignorance, for this.
Brexit was always going to be a multi-year process.
For some reason this was not explained by the Vote Leave crowd.
She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
Matt Hancock, I mean, not you or Rottenborough. You two seem alright on the whole. Bit too anti Jez in my book but I recognise that my book is niche.
In other populism news, I see Jair Bosonaro plans to appoint his 35 year old son as Brazilian Ambassador to the US. Bolsonaro Jnr cites his relevant experience as “working at the US fast food chain Popeyes” for some months.
Trump warmly approves, apparently.
Those two are... incompatible
Unsurprisingly, Scott Manley is another.
silly buggerspolitics and make some demandsThe next election is Jezza's last chance to become Prime Minister. Time is running out for him and he knows it.
The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.
The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.
https://twitter.com/DrewLinzer/status/1155837013146427394
In the end it turned out FTPA means bugger all as the Opposition (and especially this particular Opposaition) will always vote for a general election in all circumstances as its the only way they can ever achieve power.
Jezza of course thinks his best chance is in the aftermath of a chaotic exit, so he might not
If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.
It pays badly too.
We are both well out of it.
The agree/disagree format of the question is much more likely to be problematic.
https://tinyurl.com/y3yt432f
Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.
Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.
And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
It's a view I suppose...
Didn't Gerrard "steal" the girlfriend of a Mr Big in Liverpool?
And there was also that barrister who wanted to break George Best's legs for the same reason.
"The majority of UK adults (61%) do not believe the UK Government is doing enough to prioritise climate change"
https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/christian-aid-climate-change-poll/
Then click on the pdf and you'll see it is 61% Agree, 25% Disagree, 14% Don't Know
My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.
So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/457176-the-memo-suburbs-spell-trouble-for-trump
But it doesn't need 30.
It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.
Granted, you may have a different view of “good”.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/12/24/my-christmas-eve-bet-that-tmay-will-still-be-pm-at-the-end-of-next-year/
1:'During one of the recent elections/referenda a poll was published in (I think) the Evening Standard. It changed its methodology that week so published two sets of figures, before change and after change. The paper ignored the new methodology and published the old, and that was criticised.
2: You may also recall the excoriation YouGov got when it started using MRP and said Canterbury would go Lab.
Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.
Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.
I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
Instead, getting back to the actual point, even if people conclude that Labour aren't serious about blocking No Deal, it's still deeply damaging to the Greens and, especially, the Lib Dems if people also conclude that they aren't serious about it either, because that's their USP.