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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ComRes and the Telegraph come under fierce fire from other pol

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  • PloppikinsPloppikins Posts: 126

    Dura_Ace said:

    This look like a push poll.

    What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.

    This is the new politics. The West is lost.
    More alarmist nonsense from an hysterical remain campaign. Just because Remain lost a vote does not mean "the West is lost".

    Do you have any idea what a grim view the general public takes about this sort of nonsense?
    This.

    It's one dodgy poll to sell papers and get publicity. And judging by some of the hysterics, it's worked.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    Two sides with positions so entrenched no quarters given. Utterly tedious and boring.
  • Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.

    Your language and analogies were foolish and intemperate, a fact that by default you now seem to acknowledge.
  • We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    Cyclefree implied no such thing and was clear about that.
  • Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    This look like a push poll.

    What’s alarming is that ComRes and the Telegraph are willing to distort and frame a story in the aid of an anti-democratic/authoritarian agenda.

    This is the new politics. The West is lost.
    More alarmist nonsense from an hysterical remain campaign. Just because Remain lost a vote does not mean "the West is lost".

    Do you have any idea what a grim view the general public takes about this sort of nonsense?
    Do you mean with or without Don't Knows?
    With.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    HYUFD said:

    I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy

    Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.

    You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.

    I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Farage criticises Prince Charles over climate change.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1160962902381101056
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cyclefree said:

    Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.

    That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.

    Why limit it in that way?

    I'd offer citizenship to anyone from HK (unless they have a serious criminal conviction or are otherwise undesirable). They seem a hard-working and enterprising people. Whether they would want to come to an island governed by people who think that suspending democracy is a good idea is another matter, of course.
    If we had the population density of Canada or Australia I would be in favour of giving everyone in Hong Kong the right to move to the UK. In fact I don't know why those two countries don't consider it.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    moonshine said:

    Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.

    That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.

    From Wikipedia: The Census and Statistics Department estimated Hong Kong's population at 7,482,500 in mid-2019. About half the population have some form of British nationality, a legacy of colonial rule; 3.4 million residents have British National (Overseas) status...

    British National (Overseas), abbreviated BN(O), is a class of British nationality that was granted by voluntary registration to British Dependent Territories citizens who were Hong Kong residents before the transfer of sovereignty to China on 1 July 1997. Nationals of this class are subject to immigration controls when entering the United Kingdom and do not have the automatic right of abode there or in Hong Kong.

    Despite petitions from Governors David Wilson and Chris Patten asking for full citizenship to be conferred on the colony's residents, Parliament ultimately refused to grant all Hongkongers right of abode in the United Kingdom, citing difficulty in absorbing a large number of new citizens and that doing so would contradict the Joint Declaration.Instead, it offered citizenship to only 50,000 qualified residents and their dependents".

    Strikes me as a bit early to be tearing up the Joint Declaration but ask me again in a few weeks.
    That’s very interesting.

    If I understand it correctly it says that half of the Hong Kong population has “some form of British nationality” but that this is mostly BN(O) which does not confer automatic right of abode.

    Britain could also announce a streamlined route for BN(O) holders to become full citizens.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.
    Let me guess which ones ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Them and leavers in this country ;)
    Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.
    Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.

    Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
    The "proroguers" are by and large the "just bloody well get on with Brexit and stop fannying about making excuses" brigade.

    Those doing the fannying about making excuses are the rogues.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    edited August 2019
    Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.
    Let me guess which ones ...
    Billy Troll, Bob Trollworth, Troll20678, and Sergy Trollski.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617

    Chris said:

    Surprisingly, ComRes seems to be on first name terms with the prime minister, as well - "Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means ..."

    Surely that's an innovation?

    Lords Cooper and Ashcroft were on first name terms with David Cameron (pbuh).
    (pigs - be utterly horrified)?
    Peace be upon him.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_be_upon_him
    I ain't that dense.....
  • We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    Cyclefree implied no such thing and was clear about that.
    Cyclefree implied that the Yugoslavia break up was what potentiually happened when countries didn't agree on a divorce. It was set out in direct counterpoint to the Velvet Divorce.

    Why quote the Yugoslavia break up if it was utterly irrelevant to the argument, except to make an implication by default.

    I am glad that seemingly everyone now accepts the inappropriateness of its inclusion.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Them and leavers in this country ;)
    Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.
    Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.

    Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
    The "proroguers" are by and large the "just bloody well get on with Brexit and stop fannying about making excuses" brigade.

    Those doing the fannying about making excuses are the rogues.
    The “bloody well get on with Brexit” gang are so bored and fed up they are willing to sacrifice democracy and the Union.

    There’s no excuse, even ignorance, for this.

    Brexit was always going to be a multi-year process.

    For some reason this was not explained by the Vote Leave crowd.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    It won't be exactly the same as the British people lack the slavic bloodlust. They are generally too podgy and lazy to kill each other's kids.

  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    Dura_Ace said:

    As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.

    Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.

    YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
    The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,722
    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    HYUFD said:

    I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy

    Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.

    You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.

    I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
    I raise you with Boris having 'a chance of spaffing in the face of national pessimism' from Byronic yesterday.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Part of the 'NEXT 15' global marketing group...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    edited August 2019
    eristdoof said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.

    Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.

    YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
    The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
    Not as bad as Amazon throwing adverts for things already bought, or other versions of things you only buy once in a blue moon like vacuums. Or Hotel.com emails for hotels in everywhere you've ever browsed that continue to arrive even after you physically arrive in a hotel actually booked with the same website.
  • Chris said:

    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.
    Let me guess which ones ...
    What does it matter? If its there in black and white....
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    eristdoof said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    As an aside, someone mentioned insidious YouTube algorithms last night.

    Despite the fact that I mainly use YouTube to watch old Dylan and Aretha clips etc, my recommendations constantly feature Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones and even darker stuff.

    YouTube constantly pushes 4G63 rebuild videos at me despite the fact that I don't own any cars with a 4G63 in them.
    The Algorithm must be pulling personal information from other sources. The recommendations YouTube gives me are just videos that I have already seen, which in terms of predicting what I like is not a bad strategy, but as recommendations it's rubbish.
    I nearly bought an Evo VII just so the videos were not wasted on me.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,065
    edited August 2019

    AndyJS said:

    The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.

    Pretty much.

    Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.

    Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.

    Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.

    I don’t know what the solution is.
    I half agree with you, but the part "this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al." is odd. There have been quite a few authoritarian populist governments in the 20th Century which arose without social media. One of them is very well known, but I'm not allowed to mention it due to an internet law.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,869
    geoffw said:

    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    HYUFD said:

    I voted for staying in the EU with all the opt outs just, however a majority of voters voted to Leave the EU to restore sovereignty and gain greater control of immigration through eg the points system Boris wants even with some economic risk. I respect their decision and the Leave vote must be delivered to respect democracy

    Of course. But you don't believe in it. If Jeremy Corbyn was voted in tomorrow we would all respect the decision of the electorate, etc, etc but we wouldn't join the Labour Party in order to help him push through his Tesco nationalisation programme.

    You want to stay in the EU. You want to retain single market membership and free movement. The Conservative Party doesn't. It's not your party any more, sadly for you I'm sure.

    I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.
    I raise you with Boris having 'a chance of spaffing in the face of national pessimism' from Byronic yesterday.
    We don't get many posters with a turn of phrase like that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Dura_Ace said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    It won't be exactly the same as the British people lack the slavic bloodlust. They are generally too podgy and lazy to kill each other's kids.

    Their own on the other hand..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    Roger said:

    I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.

    Ghastly man.

    Matt Hancock, I mean, not you or Rottenborough. You two seem alright on the whole. Bit too anti Jez in my book but I recognise that my book is niche.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    eristdoof said:

    AndyJS said:

    The media seems to be becoming incapable of impartial reporting.

    Pretty much.

    Social media has destroyed the economics and the structures of news-making and news-taking.

    Turns out that this was an vital pillar of democracy.

    Trump, Brexit, and this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al.

    I don’t know what the solution is.
    I half agree with you, but the part "this general turn to an authoritarian populism etc are impossible to conceive of without Facebook et al." is odd. There have been quite a few authoritarian populist governments in the 20th Century which arose without social media. One of them is very well known, but I'm not allowed to mention it due to an internet law.
    Sure, but I’m talking about today, not the 1930s.

    In other populism news, I see Jair Bosonaro plans to appoint his 35 year old son as Brazilian Ambassador to the US. Bolsonaro Jnr cites his relevant experience as “working at the US fast food chain Popeyes” for some months.

    Trump warmly approves, apparently.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,806
    Mr. Doof, Amazon sometimes sends me the recommendation that I buy my own books.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Scott_P said:
    Not one scintilla of integrity left.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    edited August 2019
    Brian Shaw 20,000 calorie diet and how to run a fast 5k are currently recommended for me in my Youtube vids.
    Those two are... incompatible :D
    Unsurprisingly, Scott Manley is another.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    kinabalu said:

    Roger said:

    I enjoyed Rottenborough's 'A lickspittle speaks' after another grovel by Matt Hancock yesterday.

    Ghastly man.

    Matt Hancock, I mean, not you or Rottenborough. You two seem alright on the whole. Bit too anti Jez in my book but I recognise that my book is niche.
    Moi? Anti-Jez? Surely not. :smile:
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited August 2019
    Not so much Fake News as Fake Polling News then? :D
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)

    Labour would need to vote for it, so they can play silly buggers politics and make some demands
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)

    Labour would need to vote for it, so they can play silly buggers politics and make some demands
    They could... But they won't.

    The next election is Jezza's last chance to become Prime Minister. Time is running out for him and he knows it.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,900
    Morning all :)

    The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.

    The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,381
    I never like Agree/Disagree questions, because they're leading, and leave no room for nuance.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
    Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    Trouble with all this is even if you include the 'don't knows' a clear majority (44% vs 37%) are still in favour.

    I also don't recall this stream of invective about dodgy 'Peoples Vote' polls.

    That's the only thing that matters really... :D
  • We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    Cyclefree implied no such thing and was clear about that.
    Cyclefree implied that the Yugoslavia break up was what potentiually happened when countries didn't agree on a divorce. It was set out in direct counterpoint to the Velvet Divorce.

    Why quote the Yugoslavia break up if it was utterly irrelevant to the argument, except to make an implication by default.

    I am glad that seemingly everyone now accepts the inappropriateness of its inclusion.
    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.

    The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.

    So - the Conservative Party have learnt lessons from the poll tax and the subsequent 13 years of Tony Blair/Gordon Brown? Colour me shocked.....
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited August 2019

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
    Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
    Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)

    In the end it turned out FTPA means bugger all as the Opposition (and especially this particular Opposaition) will always vote for a general election in all circumstances as its the only way they can ever achieve power.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    GIN1138 said:

    They could... But they won't.

    The next election is Jezza's last chance to become Prime Minister. Time is running out for him and he knows it.

    A sane Labour leader would make extending Article 50 a condition.

    Jezza of course thinks his best chance is in the aftermath of a chaotic exit, so he might not
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Nigelb said:
    The blue states there are absolubte Trump locks.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I'm not sure why this is controversial. Almost every opinion poll result in the history of time has been presented with don't know's excluded.

    The agree/disagree format of the question is much more likely to be problematic.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    I see there is a variation on the old joke about the Bosnian footballer signing for Liverpool:

    https://tinyurl.com/y3yt432f

    Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.

    Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.

    And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.
  • theakestheakes Posts: 931
    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Sean_F said:

    I never like Agree/Disagree questions, because they're leading, and leave no room for nuance.

    Agree....but there's a bit more to it than that :)
  • tlg86 said:

    I see there is a variation on the old joke about the Bosnian footballer signing for Liverpool:

    https://tinyurl.com/y3yt432f

    Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.

    Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.

    And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.

    Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!

    There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    edited August 2019
    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?

    It's a view I suppose...
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    The only thing this brings into the open is what the more thoughtful among us have suspected for a while. Polling has become an integral part of the propaganda war. Polls have long ceased to be objective examples of scientific analysis and have become weapons to be deployed.

    The second point is how polls have become the driver for policy making. There is an almost febrile desperation especially (but not exclusively) in the Conservative Party to come up with "popular" policies (not the right policies or those best for the country long term). If a poll says a view is popular that becomes party policy. That wasn't the case in Margaret Thatcher's time - she believed the Poll Tax was right and argued for it in the face of public opinion which was consistently negative.

    At the time I lived in Wandsworth and for 2/3 years we paid zero tax. My mum in the Ne benefited hugely yhere from the single person [widow] discount. The policy was flawed but the idea of everyone in a household paying a share was sound.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    edited August 2019

    tlg86 said:

    I see there is a variation on the old joke about the Bosnian footballer signing for Liverpool:

    https://tinyurl.com/y3yt432f

    Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.

    Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.

    And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.

    Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!

    There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
    Yes, that thought about Ozil also occurred to me.

    Didn't Gerrard "steal" the girlfriend of a Mr Big in Liverpool?

    And there was also that barrister who wanted to break George Best's legs for the same reason.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,193

    I'm not sure why this is controversial. Almost every opinion poll result in the history of time has been presented with don't know's excluded.

    The agree/disagree format of the question is much more likely to be problematic.

    Not actually true. Have a look at the recent Comres poll on climate change which Comres headline as

    "The majority of UK adults (61%) do not believe the UK Government is doing enough to prioritise climate change"
    https://www.comresglobal.com/polls/christian-aid-climate-change-poll/

    Then click on the pdf and you'll see it is 61% Agree, 25% Disagree, 14% Don't Know
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    I reckon you're wrong.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237

    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.

    Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.

    My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.

    So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
  • AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Them and leavers in this country ;)
    Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.
    Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.

    Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
    Wrong in every way. As per usual.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131

    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
    You can get 70plus grand for being a MP and if you kiss the right arses you can upgrade to a Govt post for six figures. You can employ your family members as assistants and claim that on expenses. It requires no heavy lifting and the reviews are only once every five years. You can be thick as horseshit and still thrive, as several MPs have already proved. If I had no sense of shame and they would take me, I'd take the job in a New York minute.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:
    The blue states there are absolubte Trump locks.
    Unless the Democrats rip themselves apart, and nominate Marianne Williamson after a contested convention, it's starting to look quite difficult for Trump to be re-elected:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/457176-the-memo-suburbs-spell-trouble-for-trump

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see there is a variation on the old joke about the Bosnian footballer signing for Liverpool:

    https://tinyurl.com/y3yt432f

    Ozil and Kolasinac are said to be deeply concerned that last month's attempted mugging has rolled into something bigger and the German star installed 24-hour security - including guard dogs - outside his house as a result.

    Ozil hasn't been since in recent days having gone into hiding.

    And Kolasinac's wife is said to have fled back to Germany in fear for her safety vowing never to return.

    Ozil gone into hiding? So he's on the pitch at the Emirates then? Boom! Boom!

    There was a story about a Liverpool gang that threatened to break Steven Gerrard's legs.
    Yes, that thought about Ozil also occurred to me.

    Didn't Gerrard "steal" the girlfriend of a Mr Big in Liverpool?

    And there was also that barrister who wanted to break George Best's legs for the same reason.
    Most of the issues around violence threatened/inflicted on footballers are down to massive gambling debts player shave built up.
  • Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
    Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,238
    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    I think at least that many would seriously think about it - and that most would chicken out.

    But it doesn't need 30.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    Names?
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:
    The blue states there are absolubte Trump locks.
    But total only 44 EVs between them, fewer than California. Seeing states like WI, MI, PA and NC showing fairly dark brown in that map does not bode well for Trump.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Them and leavers in this country ;)
    Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.
    Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.

    Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
    Wrong in every way. As per usual.
    You’re the same. I know you comfort yourself that “true” Brexit is democratic and liberating, but you are nothing but an (angry) useful idiot.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    If Caroline Lucas truly wants to stop a no-deal Brexit, she must work with Corbyn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/caroline-lucas-no-deal-brexit-corbyn-green-party-labour

    It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    Scott_P said:
    Not one scintilla of integrity left.
    "Very difficult to tell" could mean two different things. Similar to "I can't say."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,217
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:
    The blue states there are absolubte Trump locks.
    Unless the Democrats rip themselves apart, and nominate Marianne Williamson after a contested convention, it's starting to look quite difficult for Trump to be re-elected:
    https://thehill.com/homenews/the-memo/457176-the-memo-suburbs-spell-trouble-for-trump

    I've got some generic Democrat bets on, including one I'd really really like to win (It's against a personal friend). Of all the likely nominees (My big 3 decent greens), Warren's H2H polling causes me the most concern.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
    Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
    It’s true though.
    Granted, you may have a different view of “good”.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
    Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
    Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
    That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/12/24/my-christmas-eve-bet-that-tmay-will-still-be-pm-at-the-end-of-next-year/

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,131
    I note that a lot of people are stating that they can't recall the last time a poll was attacked. I can think of at least two cases

    1:'During one of the recent elections/referenda a poll was published in (I think) the Evening Standard. It changed its methodology that week so published two sets of figures, before change and after change. The paper ignored the new methodology and published the old, and that was criticised.

    2: You may also recall the excoriation YouGov got when it started using MRP and said Canterbury would go Lab.
  • Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
    Ain't you the fella who said a few days ago something along the lines of "It takes effort to find good food outside of London"? That sounds like bullshit to me.....
    It’s true though.
    Granted, you may have a different view of “good”.
    That is the sort of certain "fact" that you rightly ridicule others for. I honestly can't believe that you even think it.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Scott_P said:
    Not one scintilla of integrity left.
    I remember when she was the darling of PB Tories because she went on TV and said "magic money tree" a few times.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    viewcode said:

    Scott_P said:
    Amber Rudd is going to whatever hell former “aristocracy consultants for the film Notting Hill” are consigned too.

    She reminds me of those British sailors captured by the Iranians a few years back and paraded on TV.
    I think this is why I could never be a politician or a dedicated activist - I lack the ability to do a 180 turn on my previous positions and argue for the precise opposite of what I was against previously.

    If I believe strongly in something, it is because I have spent the time to look into it beyond the superficial...
    You and me both.

    Also, I simply lack the ability to talk bullshit for extended periods of time.

    It pays badly too.

    We are both well out of it.
    You can get 70plus grand for being a MP and if you kiss the right arses you can upgrade to a Govt post for six figures. You can employ your family members as assistants and claim that on expenses. It requires no heavy lifting and the reviews are only once every five years. You can be thick as horseshit and still thrive, as several MPs have already proved. If I had no sense of shame and they would take me, I'd take the job in a New York minute.
    Sheffield Hallam might be just the ticket for you then... the current MP has set a low bar ;)
  • kinabalu said:

    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.

    Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.

    My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.

    So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
    Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.

    Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.

    Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.

    I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    GIN1138 said:

    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?

    It's a view I suppose...
    It only needs 2 or 3, not 30 and if they are standing down at the next election anyway...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    kinabalu said:

    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.

    Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.

    My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.

    So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
    Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.

    Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.

    Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.

    I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xeAY-9XvA8
  • AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Them and leavers in this country ;)
    Leavers are now, by and large, the proroguers.
    Leaverdom is (and in fact always has been) a populist project with a strong tendency toward authoritarianism.

    Civil liberty Brexiters, one which you claim to be, don’t realise (or perhaps don’t care) that you have harnessed yourself to one of Yeats’s “rough beasts”.
    Wrong in every way. As per usual.
    You’re the same. I know you comfort yourself that “true” Brexit is democratic and liberating, but you are nothing but an (angry) useful idiot.
    You long ago proved you are mentally incapable of understanding people, politics or just about anything really. It is one of the reasons your side lost and are now thrashing around looking for excuses. Look to yourself. The anger and failure you claim to see in others is simply a projection of your own inadequacies. The rest of us have moved on.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268

    If Caroline Lucas truly wants to stop a no-deal Brexit, she must work with Corbyn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/caroline-lucas-no-deal-brexit-corbyn-green-party-labour

    It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.

    If Labour were serious about blockong No Deal, they would accept a temporary leader of a Remain alliance that isn't Corbyn. Anyone with a bone of decency knows that lots of MPs will not put someone who commemorates the killers of innocent Jewish athletes. Giving the authority and dignity of the Prime Ministerial office, and the ability to fight an election on his terms, to him is a gross insult to British Jews. It would make clear to us that parliament does not have solidarity with us and we do not really belong in this country.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    viewcode said:
    I would have added . You will do anything to keep your red box, you silly b**** ! Totally shameless. And what did she say about Johnson in the 2016 EU ref debate ?
  • kinabalu said:

    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.

    Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.

    My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.

    So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
    Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.

    Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.

    Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.

    I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.

    In what way don't we compete with Europe at the moment? My company has any number of European competitors, as well as many others from other parts of the world. Brexit will hand our European competition advantages over us and is likely to mean we have to open up an office in the EU27, so diverting resources, investments and job opportunities from our UK operation.

  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    GIN1138 said:

    theakes said:

    I reckon at least 30 Conservative MPs would fail to support Government on a No Confience motion, actual defectors and abstainers. It could be a lot more.

    You think 30+ Con MPs are willing to put themselves out of a job by voting against their own government in a VONC?

    It's a view I suppose...
    Many will be retiring and some, like Grieve, will have to stand as independents anyway. Maybe as a Unity Remain candidate.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    AndyJS said:

    "Hong Kong protests: All flights at airport cancelled for second consecutive day
    Numbers of protesters at the airport are building again, raising the prospect of another day of chaos."

    https://news.sky.com/story/hong-kong-protests-could-push-it-into-the-abyss-says-carrie-lam-11784210

    The Hong Kongers are seemingly the last group of people left willing to stand up - potentially at great cost - for democracy.
    Will not be many of them standing for much longer
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,751

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
    Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
    Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
    That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/12/24/my-christmas-eve-bet-that-tmay-will-still-be-pm-at-the-end-of-next-year/

    I do think all this talk of Johnson choosing a general election date after 31 October must have made the 2/3 majority route to an election much more problematical for him. Are 2/3 of MPs going to give him that power?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156
    edited August 2019
    So it is fine to report 46% for Scottish independence including Don't Knows from an Ashcroft poll as 'Brexit now means a majority for Scottish independence' but not fine to report 44% for suspending Parliament to achieve Brexit including Don't Knows in a Comres poll as in any way a meaningful result at all?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.

    Your language and analogies were foolish and intemperate, a fact that by default you now seem to acknowledge.
    Give it up , you are now a stalker. Go get a life stop boring the pants off us. Anyone with a few braincells knows what she meant.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Gabs2 said:

    If Caroline Lucas truly wants to stop a no-deal Brexit, she must work with Corbyn https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/13/caroline-lucas-no-deal-brexit-corbyn-green-party-labour

    It's pretty clear that any path to a second referendum leads through cooperation with Labour. If the Greens and Lib Dems refuse to work with them, voters are going to realise that those parties aren't really so commited to stopping No Deal after all. The excuse that Corbyn isn't pure enough on Remain, despite wanting to stop No Deal and despite offering a second referendum, isn't very convincing.

    If Labour were serious about blockong No Deal, they would accept a temporary leader of a Remain alliance that isn't Corbyn. Anyone with a bone of decency knows that lots of MPs will not put someone who commemorates the killers of innocent Jewish athletes. Giving the authority and dignity of the Prime Ministerial office, and the ability to fight an election on his terms, to him is a gross insult to British Jews. It would make clear to us that parliament does not have solidarity with us and we do not really belong in this country.
    I'm going to ignore the attempt to change the subject because I've already commented here many times how sick I am of being told that all Jews think the same way, with the implication that those of us who don't aren't really Jews.

    Instead, getting back to the actual point, even if people conclude that Labour aren't serious about blocking No Deal, it's still deeply damaging to the Greens and, especially, the Lib Dems if people also conclude that they aren't serious about it either, because that's their USP.
  • kinabalu said:

    The disintegration of Yugoslavia was the end of a political grouping of disparate areas without an equitable economic and devolved democratic structure. It is a potential future for the EU.

    Gloomy in the extreme but nevertheless a valid point.

    My main reason for voting Remain was not that Brexit will weaken us - although it almost certainly will - but that it will weaken the EU and make it more likely that it fractures into a collection of aggressively competing nations all determined to 'make themselves great' again. That is not an attractive proposition. Or rather it is attractive only to the unattractive.

    So there you go. This is the sort of wise and big picture type of guy I am.
    Funny I voted Leave for the same reason in reverse. I want us (and the EU) to compete. You say competition is unattractive but I say it is desirable. Conflict is bad but competition is good.

    Competition as opposed to conflict is a good thing. It makes us better ourselves. It makes us not rest on our laurels. It drives us forwards. It sparks new ideas and by different groups implementing different ideas it helps us evolve. We can learn more.

    Competition tests us. It invigorates us. It makes us be the best version of us we can be.

    I want to leave the EU so we can compete with Europe. Because the rest of the world won't stop competing with us either.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xeAY-9XvA8
    That was shot on Cleeve Hill, which overlooks Cheltenham, and where I will be walking the dog later today. :)
  • malcolmg said:

    Cyclefree said:

    We had to suffer all this rubbish yesterday with Cyclefree's implication that "no deal" = Yugoslavia break up.

    What we had to suffer yesterday was you inventing what I wrote. Or perhaps a failure of comprehension on your part. Both rubbish and tiresome.
    What you wrote was entirely clear - a fact picked up by several other posters on this site.

    Your language and analogies were foolish and intemperate, a fact that by default you now seem to acknowledge.
    Give it up , you are now a stalker. Go get a life stop boring the pants off us. Anyone with a few braincells knows what she meant.
    Malc, just to calm you down....Woodford Reserve is 25 quid at my local Tesco, dunno if that's the case in North Britain, though!
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362

    moonshine said:

    Britain should offer citizenship to any Hong Konger born before 1997.

    That would be quite a profound declaration against repression and toward a “global Britain”.

    From Wikipedia: The Census and Statistics Department estimated Hong Kong's population at 7,482,500 in mid-2019. About half the population have some form of British nationality, a legacy of colonial rule; 3.4 million residents have British National (Overseas) status...

    British National (Overseas), abbreviated BN(O), is a class of British nationality that was granted by voluntary registration to British Dependent Territories citizens who were Hong Kong residents before the transfer of sovereignty to China on 1 July 1997. Nationals of this class are subject to immigration controls when entering the United Kingdom and do not have the automatic right of abode there or in Hong Kong.

    Despite petitions from Governors David Wilson and Chris Patten asking for full citizenship to be conferred on the colony's residents, Parliament ultimately refused to grant all Hongkongers right of abode in the United Kingdom, citing difficulty in absorbing a large number of new citizens and that doing so would contradict the Joint Declaration.Instead, it offered citizenship to only 50,000 qualified residents and their dependents".

    Strikes me as a bit early to be tearing up the Joint Declaration but ask me again in a few weeks.
    That’s very interesting.

    If I understand it correctly it says that half of the Hong Kong population has “some form of British nationality” but that this is mostly BN(O) which does not confer automatic right of abode.

    Britain could also announce a streamlined route for BN(O) holders to become full citizens.
    Bollox, we are overcrowded enough.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    What if, on 2nd September, Boris pre-empts all of it and announces we're having a general election? ;)
    Except Boris cannot announce that. FTPA!
    Did you miss Theresa May doing exactly that on 18th April 2017 (after we heard a never ending stream of people claiming it couldn't/wouldn't happen)
    That would be the never ending stream of people telling us that Theresa May was nailed on to be PM until a year after her VONC victory. Or even, beyond....

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/12/24/my-christmas-eve-bet-that-tmay-will-still-be-pm-at-the-end-of-next-year/

    I do think all this talk of Johnson choosing a general election date after 31 October must have made the 2/3 majority route to an election much more problematical for him. Are 2/3 of MPs going to give him that power?
    Corbyn gets his Brexit. He can hope it comes with a large side-order of chaos. Suits him fine.....
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    So it is fine to report 46% for Scottish independence including Don't Knows from an Ashcroft poll as 'Brexit now means a majority for Scottish independence' but not fine to report 44% for suspending Parliament to achieve Brexit including Don't Knows in a Comres poll as in any way a meaningful result at all?

    Wrong again as usual, it was 46% excluding Don't Knows, or is it the usual Tory deliberate fibbing
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912
    Sean_F said:

    I never like Agree/Disagree questions, because they're leading, and leave no room for nuance.

    It's interesting that actual market research and academic studies tend not to use such questions but instead ask people to rank or score propositions. Why don't political pollsters do that?
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