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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,250
    Sean_F said:

    I don't think he is utterly reviled.

    This forum is full of people who won't forgive him for betraying David Cameron in 2016. But, that's quite a niche section of the electorate.
    It's also full of people made to look fools by saying "lay the favouritre" - whilst touting their ever-so-clever 100-1 losing bets....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Alistair Meeks said "You sneered at olive oil. And I repeat the question, since you ducked it, are inner London Remain voters subhuman? Or are things that affect the quality of their lives to be considered also."

    Given its historical and European context I think using the word subhuman is rather poor form. Your question is not deserving of a response.



    Another Leaver not prepared to face up to the implications of his own words. The predictability of their cowardly scuttling from their own saloon bar prejudices would be amusing if it were not so disgusting.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Has anyone read Travellers in the Third Reich by Julia Boyd? I’m reading it currently. It’s compelling and a bit closer to home than you’d want it to be.

    No, but I’m reading Heartland - growing up among the working poor in Kansas - which is very interesting and explains a lot
  • Sean_F said:

    I thought Keynes had established in 1925, that when we rejoined the Gold Standard, and sterling was revalued by 10% against the dollar, we did not become 10% richer. Instead, we put exporters out of business and pushed up the rate of unemployment.

    But, foreign holidays and olive oil became a bit cheaper, no doubt.

    When we ran an Empire, there was definitely a political reason to fix the price of sterling at a particular value and to defend it, as a matter of imperial prestige. Now it means the square root of nothing.
    Thank you! Glad to get someone else involved who knows what they're talking about. :smile:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096

    Generally I would expect that hotels >> rent on a per diem basis, as is eating when you're eating out when on holiday rather than cooking from cheaper ingredients. You may also be doing further travelling within the country you're visiting (car hire >> car ownership) and so on, and so forth.
    At the risk of overly revealing my personal finances, the holiday was ~ €2400 (Or €2000 or so if you exclude flights which I'll admit were £ priced though it's arguable they are fundamentally in € with Lufthansa the carrier) 1000 € hotel, the rest on train tickets, art gallery entrances, drink and good food. We don't spend £5k a month on everything here...
    These figures will skew proportionately more toward a higher proportion as you head south on the income scale would be my guess.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019

    Stoke and Mansfield are in the Midlands mate.

    Stoke and Mansfield are in the Midlands mate.

    Stoke and Mansfield are in the Midlands mate.
    I know where they are thank you. I've seen Hull City play in both places.
  • So your magical wage growth, showing the strength of the British economy, is a product of the government minimum wage.

    F*cking hell.
    So are you upset that those on minimum wage are gaining?

    Wage growth is an average for the whole country and yes the poor are gaining more, so by definition on average those not on minimum wage must be averaging something below 3.4% [or 3.6% excluding bonuses] but they're still gaining. If they weren't, the average couldn't be that high.

    And the collorary to minimum wage going up too fast is unemployment rising. That isn't happening. The fact minimum wage has gone up by 3% in real terms [4.9% nominally] while unemployment continues to fall is remarkable.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,372

    Given its historical and European context I think using the word subhuman is rather poor form. Your question is not deserving of a response.

    Another Leaver not prepared to face up to the implications of his own words. The predictability of their cowardly scuttling from their own saloon bar prejudices would be amusing if it were not so disgusting.

    Look to your own sins, for once. You really love to moralise about your political opponents.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019

    Given its historical and European context I think using the word subhuman is rather poor form. Your question is not deserving of a response.

    Another Leaver not prepared to face up to the implications of his own words. The predictability of their cowardly scuttling from their own saloon bar prejudices would be amusing if it were not so disgusting.

    You need help.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,829

    Has anyone read Travellers in the Third Reich by Julia Boyd? I’m reading it currently. It’s compelling and a bit closer to home than you’d want it to be.

    Yes, I read it last year. What horrors ahead seems clear in retrospect, but they weren't visible at the time.

    The Weimar film season on BFI player is good too. It is the Centenary of the Ill-fated Weimar Republic this year. After a rocky start it was prospering by the late Twenties and the Nazis losing votes, then the great stock market crash changed everything.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    Absolutely I completely agree, so you spend more disposable income per day abroad than you do at home. But you spend your non-disposable income each day whether home or abroad at home.

    Disposable income isn't all your income. Rents, rates, utilities etc are still payable whether home or abroad.
    A hotel didn't have to be much more expensive than your rent for it to cost you more, as a proportion of your expenditure on accommodation, than as a proportion of the days you are paying for it, even though you will still be paying for your rent on days you aren't using it. So I'm pretty confident your point is consequently wrong.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    edited August 2019


    Another Leaver not prepared to face up to the implications of his own words. The predictability of their cowardly scuttling from their own saloon bar prejudices would be amusing if it were not so disgusting.

    Thank goodness we have people like you upholding our social fabric and civic decency.

  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    The quotes system seems to be reversing the comments made by me and Meeks!
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,396

    To make examples we work with hypotheticals. You may be a mathematician but the idea of varying inflation while holding wages the same is garbage - every economist knows that when inflation changes wages change too ultimately, which can be a nasty circle and there are many warnings about that in history. Think about it, people look at inflation when negotiating wage changes.

    Minimum Wage earners not earning bonuses have seen their wage grow far faster than anyone else on average and far faster than inflation. Real wages for those on the National Minimum Wage have gone up 3% this year. That's real wages not nominal and that is real figures not made up.
    OK Philip I give up.

    By the way I accept your point re inflation/wages, but I'm not sure I challenged that point really. In the example I gave (following from your example) the inflation dropped, so there would not be a knock on increase in wages.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    Excellent day's work by Labour in Scotland:

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1159208125397897217
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,970
    Scott_P said:
    Is there no issue that doesn’t lead to trouble within Labour?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,829

    Have I missed something?

    Warren is now BF fav for Dems.

    3.9

    Her new farm policy seems to have gone down well. I think she will be the candidate.

    https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1159079290786451456?s=19

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:


    Another Leaver not prepared to face up to the implications of his own words. The predictability of their cowardly scuttling from their own saloon bar prejudices would be amusing if it were not so disgusting.

    Look to your own sins, for once. You really love to moralise about your political opponents.

    Perhaps if my "political opponents" weren't moral vacuums who enthusiastically fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies and would do it all over again, there would be no need to moralise about them.
  • kjh said:

    OK Philip I give up.

    By the way I accept your point re inflation/wages, but I'm not sure I challenged that point really. In the example I gave (following from your example) the inflation dropped, so there would not be a knock on increase in wages.

    Thank you. My point is that ultimately inflation and wage changes do in the real world tend to go up and down together. One both reacts to, and causes the other, which can lead to quite vicious feedback loops if one or both become problematic.

    When the economy is strong people negotiate real wage increases, when the economy is struggling companies offer real wage pay cuts by freezing wages below inflation. What matters is the differential, not one figure in isolation.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Sean_F said:

    I thought Keynes had established in 1925, that when we rejoined the Gold Standard, and sterling was revalued by 10% against the dollar, we did not become 10% richer. Instead, we put exporters out of business and pushed up the rate of unemployment.

    But, foreign holidays and olive oil became a bit cheaper, no doubt.

    When we ran an Empire, there was definitely a political reason to fix the price of sterling at a particular value and to defend it, as a matter of imperial prestige. Now it means the square root of nothing.
    Tell the people of Zimbabwe that it means nothing to have a currency other people don't value. Sure, we're a long way from there, but we're travelling in the wrong direction.

    Yes, it would make things worse to try and fix the currency at an artificially high level by decree, but over the long-term, and excepting the resource curse effect, you can view the value of a currency as a measure of the strength of an economy.
  • Gabs2Gabs2 Posts: 1,268
    Foxy said:

    Her new farm policy seems to have gone down well. I think she will be the candidate.

    https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1159079290786451456?s=19

    Who would be her VP? Buttigieg? Booker?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,372

    Look to your own sins, for once. You really love to moralise about your political opponents.
    Perhaps if my "political opponents" weren't moral vacuums who enthusiastically fell in behind a campaign of xenophobic lies and would do it all over again, there would be no need to moralise about them.


    You really are the just pharisee.

    You spit venom at your opponents and think you are the most moral of men.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,003

    So are you upset that those on minimum wage are gaining?

    Wage growth is an average for the whole country and yes the poor are gaining more, so by definition on average those not on minimum wage must be averaging something below 3.4% [or 3.6% excluding bonuses] but they're still gaining. If they weren't, the average couldn't be that high.

    And the collorary to minimum wage going up too fast is unemployment rising. That isn't happening. The fact minimum wage has gone up by 3% in real terms [4.9% nominally] while unemployment continues to fall is remarkable.
    Of course I’m not upset. However using it assess the impact of Brexit on the British economy is pretty pointless due to the fact it is government mandated.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Gabs2 said:

    Thank goodness we have people like you upholding our social fabric and civic decency.

    I see what you did there LOL
  • Foxy said:

    Yes, I read it last year. What horrors ahead seems clear in retrospect, but they weren't visible at the time.

    The Weimar film season on BFI player is good too. It is the Centenary of the Ill-fated Weimar Republic this year. After a rocky start it was prospering by the late Twenties and the Nazis losing votes, then the great stock market crash changed everything.

    It’s such an eye opener for me. It seems obvious when you think about it now: in 1933 Nazi Germany was not what it was in 1939. Many people thought Hitler’s rise to power was a blip, something that had to be worked through, before normality could return.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    Foxy said:

    Her new farm policy seems to have gone down well. I think she will be the candidate.

    https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1159079290786451456?s=19

    Well - and there is a chance this post won't age well - but if she is the candidate then we are looking at four more years of the Racist In Chief.

    I am green but barely.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Smart play tonight by Philip Thompson introducing olive oil prices into the brexit/currency debates. He knows how to hit Remainers where it hurts.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2019

    Tell the people of Zimbabwe that it means nothing to have a currency other people don't value. Sure, we're a long way from there, but we're travelling in the wrong direction.

    Yes, it would make things worse to try and fix the currency at an artificially high level by decree, but over the long-term, and excepting the resource curse effect, you can view the value of a currency as a measure of the strength of an economy.
    UK inflation: 1.9%
    UK target inflation: 2.0%

    Zimbabwe inflation "officially" now: 175.66%
    Record Zimbabwe inflation: 89.7 sextillion percent.

    "A long way from there" is putting it somewhat lightly.

    No over the long term you can not do that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,829
    Gabs2 said:

    Who would be her VP? Buttigieg? Booker?
    I have no idea, but it is an astute move politically to try to buy off American farmers hit by the Trump Trade War. It brings loads of the Midwest back into contention.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    You really are the just pharisee.

    You spit venom at your opponents and think you are the most moral of men.

    All of us are in the gutter, but Leave advocates continue to roll around in the gutter.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,096
    Foxy said:

    Her new farm policy seems to have gone down well. I think she will be the candidate.

    https://twitter.com/ewarren/status/1159079290786451456?s=19

    Biden should still be the favourite, but Warren has a genuine and good chance. Laying the snot out of Harris has me in decent shape right now on this market.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,886

    The quotes system seems to be reversing the comments made by me and Meeks!

    Fear not! Doubt many would be getting the two of you confused. :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,970
    Update: the North Carolina emu on the run has now made the British news. And there’s an official Wanted poster out on him:

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/07/eno-the-emu-north-carolina-wanted
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,002
    Foxy said:

    Yes, I read it last year. What horrors ahead seems clear in retrospect, but they weren't visible at the time.

    The Weimar film season on BFI player is good too. It is the Centenary of the Ill-fated Weimar Republic this year. After a rocky start it was prospering by the late Twenties and the Nazis losing votes, then the great stock market crash changed everything.
    For cricket obsessives, there is also this:

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2014/06/field-of-shadows-by-dan-waddell-review/
    ...At the darker end of this book’s territory, Dan Waddell provides good evidence that the Germans sent their best ever cricketer to his death in Auschwitz (he’d made the mistake of being Jewish). Team spirit was also a problem: one player responded to a fielder dropping a catch off his bowling by marching over and felling him with a right hook. The MCC tourists later advised their hosts that this might not be the best way forward. ‘Yes, I have heard about the incident,’ replied an official. ‘But I understand it was a very simple catch.’

    The book is too good, however, to trade in simplistic myths. We’re reminded that the Nazi flag was flown during a 1937 Davis Cup tennis match at Wimbledon. Later that summer the MCC players gave the Hitler salute in Berlin...
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2019

    Of course I’m not upset. However using it assess the impact of Brexit on the British economy is pretty pointless due to the fact it is government mandated.
    Which is why I didn't use that originally, I used average wages and the employment rate. It was you that asked for any evidence that applied to the North East and the difference between as you put it executives and plebs. Executive bonuses are below that, plebs minimum wage is above it.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    dixiedean said:

    Fear not! Doubt many would be getting the two of you confused. :)
    Fair point well made Dixie.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,003

    Smart play tonight by Philip Thompson introducing olive oil prices into the brexit/currency debates. He knows how to hit Remainers where it hurts.

    You are the one patronising Northerners by suggesting we don’t buy olive oil. It’s pathetic. You may be surprised to know that working class northerners also drive BMWs, wear designer clothes, and occasionally buy meal deals from Waitrose.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,829

    Well - and there is a chance this post won't age well - but if she is the candidate then we are looking at four more years of the Racist In Chief.

    I am green but barely.
    Probably so, so I am getting on her for candidate, not POTUS.

    She might just do it though, depending on the economy. I wonder what Raabs trade deal prospects would look like when the USA has a grain, soybean and beef mountain.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,002
    Pulpstar said:

    Biden should still be the favourite, but Warren has a genuine and good chance. Laying the snot out of Harris has me in decent shape right now on this market.
    Warren is organised; Biden isn’t, and never has been.
    Could still go either way, and neither are inevitable yet.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Floater said:

    I see what you did there LOL
    Ah, pb's pick-n-mix racist turns up right on cue.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019

    You are the one patronising Northerners by suggesting we don’t buy olive oil. It’s pathetic. You may be surprised to know that working class northerners also drive BMWs, wear designer clothes, and occasionally buy meal deals from Waitrose.
    Serious sense of humour failure here. You're not still sore about buying Billy Whitehurst from us are you.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,817

    Not sure what point you are making here. You may find it difficult to understand that many Leave voters in the North can't afford imported olive oil but I can assure you that many can't. You sneering at Greggs suggests you've little understanding of life in less well off areas.
    The Remainer olive oil versus Leaver Greggs argument is particularly ridiculous. ...

    ... but let me pitch in. You can buy a bottle of extra virgin olive oil in Lidl for less than the cost of a Greggs ham sandwich. It lasts much longer and tastes better too.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Smart play tonight by Philip Thompson introducing olive oil prices into the brexit/currency debates. He knows how to hit Remainers where it hurts.

    Olive Oil is actually quite interesting. The EU tariffs for Olives are zero, the EU tariffs for Olive oil are 30%. So what happens is the Spanish and Italian producers buy North African Olives to make oil and market it as Spanish or Italian oil, EU rules allow this as the economic input is in those countries.

    The 30% tariff stops the North African countries from selling olive oil in the EU. So if the UK set the Oilve oil tariff at 0% then we could import Olive oil from North Africa at a lower price than EU oilve oil.

    Has the added benefit of allowing the North African countries to move up the added value chain and created better paid jobs than harvesters.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 20,003

    Serious sense of humour failure here. You're not still sore about buying Billy Whitehurst from us are you.
    No, because that was 7 years before I was born.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    Foxy said:

    I have no idea, but it is an astute move politically to try to buy off American farmers hit by the Trump Trade War. It brings loads of the Midwest back into contention.
    Really? Will the good old boys in Macey's Rib Joint in PA be voting for a wonk?

    And wait till Trump tears into the Medicare For All plan.

    Us NHS users can't see the issue, but taking millions of US employee private health insurance policies away from people is going to cause independent voters to get nervous.

    Trump vs Warren at debates would be the contest of the century but I fear she will lose the GE.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,970

    It’s such an eye opener for me. It seems obvious when you think about it now: in 1933 Nazi Germany was not what it was in 1939. Many people thought Hitler’s rise to power was a blip, something that had to be worked through, before normality could return.

    In similar vein I’d recommend Klemperer’s diaries, as a Jewish man living the life of the frog in the pan. It has the advantage of being entirely contemporaneous, without the benefit of any added hindsight; the reader knows where history is heading but the writer did not. The level of denial, hoping for the best, and the story of how a normal life can be turned into a nightmare by a series of small steps, is remarkable. He was lucky and survived, originally through connections and subsequently because Dresden was bombed the night before he was due to be deported east.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    Nigelb said:

    Warren is organised; Biden isn’t, and never has been.
    Could still go either way, and neither are inevitable yet.
    Warren now at 3.85
  • nichomar said:

    So clearly the future WTO tariffs regime is either of no importance or that you are all like me completely unsure what it means. I have tried since this afternoon to raise the issue but it seems to have got lost in bull cheese.

    Evening old chap. It is something that holds a great deal of interest to me but I didn't see your messages amongst all the other postings on here today. What was the point you were raising?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,372

    It’s such an eye opener for me. It seems obvious when you think about it now: in 1933 Nazi Germany was not what it was in 1939. Many people thought Hitler’s rise to power was a blip, something that had to be worked through, before normality could return.

    The Holocaust was a long way away. The relentless violence, and the closure, or co-option, of rival political institutions was well under way.

    I don't think we face anything like that.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,002
    Foxy said:

    I have no idea, but it is an astute move politically to try to buy off American farmers hit by the Trump Trade War. It brings loads of the Midwest back into contention.
    More than that, it is actually good policy.
  • StreeterStreeter Posts: 684

    Boris will resign before the end of the year.

    Be Leave, just Be Leave. :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,002

    Warren now at 3.85
    I’m long Warren, and short Harris too.
    Time to take profits, perhaps.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    Sean_F said:

    The Holocaust was a long way away. The relentless violence, and the closure, or co-option, of rival political institutions was well under way.

    I don't think we face anything like that.
    A fundamental difference is that 1930s German had lots of people with weapons and lots of men in their 30 and 40s brutalised by WWI.

    The US of course has lots of people with weapons.

  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    New thread
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,250
    So Corbyn is just McDonnell's lackey? Who knew....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,124
    Streeter said:

    Be Leave, just Be Leave. :smile:
    What is Sunil’s current view?
    It’s not long since he was telling Remainers to suck it up, but he seems anti-Boris.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,163
    If Boris lasts beyond the autumn, I predict Cummings will be another Steve Bannon. Got rid of as soon as was convenient.

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1159214002637017090
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,250

    I know where they are thank you. I've seen Hull City play in both places.
    Wow - you really are living the dream!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,372
    To be clear, you have to be a Conservative for Corbyn to stop Brexit. That means, you end life-long friendships.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,093
    Foxy said:

    So is that sorted then? The next PB meet up is in a Welsh nudist colony in the rain, with a ban on olive oil?

    As long as there is still pineapple on the pizza, count me in...
    And Radiohead to dance to....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,002
    sarissa said:

    And Radiohead to dance to....
    The horror, the horror...
  • What is Sunil’s current view?
    It’s not long since he was telling Remainers to suck it up, but he seems anti-Boris.
    You don't have to be a Remainer to be anti-Boris.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,498

    Who do you want to dub the voice of Nicola Sturgeon?
    Su Pollard. Just for fun.
  • leslie48leslie48 Posts: 33
    Corbyn's popularity knows no depths "JCorbyn’s latest YouGov figure has a net minus of minus 50%." Is there any other Labour leader in history this low?

    As I have repeatedly said those Stalinist's at his top table and the Party's Hard Left NEC & the Praetorian Guard called Momentum running Labour are not interested in government power and the MP's of that party are now jointly complicit in this cult of political cowardice & gutless disinterest in the winning of power. We are watching a theatre of the absurd.
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