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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov finds just 28% wanting a no deal against 43% wanting to

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,678

    thank you for pointing me in the new direction....

    O/t being at Lords yesterday was like being at Wembley for Spurs in a semi-final.... almost identical emotions.. and usual outcome.

    Thank God Liverpool won the Champions League, that and Lewis Hamilton apart, this is looking to be an awful sporting year for me.
    The football thing is quite a saver! For me Andy Murray back on a tennis court is pretty cool to see too.
    That's Sir Andy Murray.

    I'm quite sad about that, he's going to retire soon.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428
    edited June 2019
    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,900
    Alistair said:
    57% of Scottish Tory members back Boris over Hunt with Yougov as they know Boris is best able to win back Scottish Brexit Party voters and beat the SNP

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/25/incredible-rise-and-fall-and-rise-boris-johnson
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191
    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,349
    HYUFD said:


    It isn't, most Leavers want to Leave the Single Market and Customs Union not stay in a potentially indefinite Customs Union

    This has always been the slight of hand: to claim the favoured policy of a subset of the 52% who voted Leave as representing the will of the people. When only 52% backed Leave of any description, the median voter must back the softest possible Brexit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 48,717

    thank you for pointing me in the new direction....

    O/t being at Lords yesterday was like being at Wembley for Spurs in a semi-final.... almost identical emotions.. and usual outcome.

    Thank God Liverpool won the Champions League, that and Lewis Hamilton apart, this is looking to be an awful sporting year for me.
    The football thing is quite a saver! For me Andy Murray back on a tennis court is pretty cool to see too.
    That's Sir Andy Murray.

    I'm quite sad about that, he's going to retire soon.
    He'll retire one knight?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    I don’t think some on here can but neither does Johnson.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    I bet you are right. But what matters is what people believe to be horrible.
    If he starts yelling Ulla, I'm out of here.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,678

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    My favourite thing is the discussion of A customs union versus The customs union.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021
    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,678

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to your fellow Leavers.

    Be Leave.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,472
    edited June 2019
    Which is about the odds against Boris being willing personally to oversee one. It isn't going to happen.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to your fellow Leavers.

    Be Leave.
    Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way they fell into our trap? Ha ha!
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,349
    algarkirk said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.

    I don't think there is going to be No Deal, so something else is going to be the deciding factor; there is a chance however slight that No Deal would happen and prove less damaging than expected - after all the expectations are such that it would do quite well if following No Deal we avoid nuclear wipe out, mass starvation, the collapse of transportation and the death of every NHS patient.

    The caravan will move on somehow, and Labour are in the tricky position that at the moment they don't have a mechanism for avoiding a continuing hard left take over. Current polling would suggest that this plus a Europe policy which is so bad and confused it doesn't even qualify as a unicorn (not least because no-one actually knows what it is) is damaging Labour even more than the Tories lamentable show is damaging them.

    Buy shares in the LibDems??

    I think No Deal is possible. This is a good take from Ivan Rodgers. I expect in that case for No Deal to be a humiliating interim phase,rather than an end state for the reasons Rodgers sets out.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1142888025548099584

    Agree with most of Ivan Rogers, except that he goes a bit light on Labour's failure to support the only deal in town in the national interest when they could, and still think that No Deal is unlikely - we will revoke if faced with a choice between the two.

    Boris's (and Hunt's) intention is to try again to get TM's deal dressed up a bit and over the line. As a supporter of 'Norway for Now' that thought keeps alive (just) the faint hope of a sane Brexit.

    Ivan Rogers knows more about Brexit than the whole of the British political class put together. Everything he writes on the topic is a must read.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,427

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Do you feel English or British, Sunil? Brexit was won by people who feel they are English.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to the Tories. Oh sure, fewer will admit that than say it, but not to get all HYUFD on this, but the polling seems pretty clear Tories by and large see it as a price worth paying, and as we've seen someone suggesting it should come first gets attacked as not believing in Brexit enough to see it happen. The clear implication being the candidate who does not want to put the Union first is the one to go for as they will deliver Brexit.

    The Tories have totally lost it. We've joked about it for some time, but May however incompetently was trying to restrain the most intense tribe within them, but they really are now nothing but the Brexit Party. Any policy announcements are clearly fluff as the Conservative and Unionist Party, by majority of its members at least, does not even care about the Union.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    algarkirk said:

    Which is about the odds against Boris being willing personally to oversee one. It isn't going to happen.
    You’re committing what I think of as the English fallacy: the belief that Leavers somehow have decisive agency in this process. The outcome is as likely to be determined in Brussels as in Boris’s head.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    My favourite thing is the discussion of A customs union versus The customs union.
    Well don’t turkey have A customs union whilst we’re in THE customs union?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,472

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    My favourite thing is the discussion of A customs union versus The customs union.
    Half the ERG couldn't tell the difference between A customs union, The customs union and the Public and Commercial Services Union.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Do you feel English or British, Sunil? Brexit was won by people who feel they are English.
    Well, my language is definitely English. I always answer back to my mum in English whenever she shouts at me in Malayalam :)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,163

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What is the 'highest penalty'? Dragged out of the European Parliament in chains and his election declared invalid?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to the Tories. Oh sure, fewer will admit that than say it, but not to get all HYUFD on this, but the polling seems pretty clear Tories by and large see it as a price worth paying, and as we've seen someone suggesting it should come first gets attacked as not believing in Brexit enough to see it happen. The clear implication being the candidate who does not want to put the Union first is the one to go for as they will deliver Brexit.

    The Tories have totally lost it. We've joked about it for some time, but May however incompetently was trying to restrain the most intense tribe within them, but they really are now nothing but the Brexit Party. Any policy announcements are clearly fluff as the Conservative and Unionist Party, by majority of its members at least, does not even care about the Union.
    OK, who am I parodying? Here goes:

    "I ask you: do you want Total Brexit? If necessary, do you want a Brexit more total and radical than anything that we can even yet imagine?"

    […]
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What is the 'highest penalty'? Dragged out of the European Parliament in chains and his election declared invalid?
    I doubt the penalty in itself is important but they have referred the case to the metropolitan Police
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What is the 'highest penalty'? Dragged out of the European Parliament in chains and his election declared invalid?
    He can only get the gravy train to Strasbourg rather than Brussels.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    "TOTAL BREXIT - SHORTEST BREXIT"
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,885

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to the Tories. Oh sure, fewer will admit that than say it, but not to get all HYUFD on this, but the polling seems pretty clear Tories by and large see it as a price worth paying, and as we've seen someone suggesting it should come first gets attacked as not believing in Brexit enough to see it happen. The clear implication being the candidate who does not want to put the Union first is the one to go for as they will deliver Brexit.

    The Tories have totally lost it. We've joked about it for some time, but May however incompetently was trying to restrain the most intense tribe within them, but they really are now nothing but the Brexit Party. Any policy announcements are clearly fluff as the Conservative and Unionist Party, by majority of its members at least, does not even care about the Union.
    OK, who am I parodying? Here goes:

    "I ask you: do you want Total Brexit? If necessary, do you want a Brexit more total and radical than anything that we can even yet imagine?"

    […]
    Dr. Goebbels?

    (Amusingly, there was an MEP called Dr. Goebbels).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2019

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,472

    algarkirk said:

    Which is about the odds against Boris being willing personally to oversee one. It isn't going to happen.
    You’re committing what I think of as the English fallacy: the belief that Leavers somehow have decisive agency in this process. The outcome is as likely to be determined in Brussels as in Boris’s head.
    Good point, but I think that if the EU placed us in the position of No Deal or Revoke, which it is absolutely entitled to do, we would revoke. FWIW I think the EU should grant us an unlimited unconditional extension and never think about it again until we nudge them, at which point it becomes difficult for UK politicians to behave in other than a grown up and rational way. You will I think accuse me of allowing hope to triumph over experience!

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,885

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?


    My view is that both are important. I see no reason to choose one over the other.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,163
    nichomar said:

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What is the 'highest penalty'? Dragged out of the European Parliament in chains and his election declared invalid?
    I doubt the penalty in itself is important but they have referred the case to the metropolitan Police
    Which will come first; Oct 31st or a charge?

    Breath should not be held!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,900

    HYUFD said:


    It isn't, most Leavers want to Leave the Single Market and Customs Union not stay in a potentially indefinite Customs Union

    This has always been the slight of hand: to claim the favoured policy of a subset of the 52% who voted Leave as representing the will of the people. When only 52% backed Leave of any description, the median voter must back the softest possible Brexit.
    The median voter backs a Canada style FTA for GB as I have shown below
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021
    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502

    Alistair said:
    There is nothing the death cult will not sacrifice to secure their idea of Brexit.
    Soon they’ll be sacrificing the first born !

    Amazing all that Global Britain guff , what a joke . Sorry to say the UK is becoming a joke nation soon to have a complete clown as PM.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 70,212

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What's going on with his chin ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,885
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    Which is about the odds against Boris being willing personally to oversee one. It isn't going to happen.
    You’re committing what I think of as the English fallacy: the belief that Leavers somehow have decisive agency in this process. The outcome is as likely to be determined in Brussels as in Boris’s head.
    Good point, but I think that if the EU placed us in the position of No Deal or Revoke, which it is absolutely entitled to do, we would revoke. FWIW I think the EU should grant us an unlimited unconditional extension and never think about it again until we nudge them, at which point it becomes difficult for UK politicians to behave in other than a grown up and rational way. You will I think accuse me of allowing hope to triumph over experience!

    No Deal is not my preferred option (if I were surveyed by Yougov I'd rank it third). But, if the choice was No Deal or Revoke, I'd opt for No Deal.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191
    Sean_F said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    Which is about the odds against Boris being willing personally to oversee one. It isn't going to happen.
    You’re committing what I think of as the English fallacy: the belief that Leavers somehow have decisive agency in this process. The outcome is as likely to be determined in Brussels as in Boris’s head.
    Good point, but I think that if the EU placed us in the position of No Deal or Revoke, which it is absolutely entitled to do, we would revoke. FWIW I think the EU should grant us an unlimited unconditional extension and never think about it again until we nudge them, at which point it becomes difficult for UK politicians to behave in other than a grown up and rational way. You will I think accuse me of allowing hope to triumph over experience!

    No Deal is not my preferred option (if I were surveyed by Yougov I'd rank it third). But, if the choice was No Deal or Revoke, I'd opt for No Deal.
    Which is a crazy position to take. Essentially spiting everyone else for not being able to achieve Brexit in a sensible manner in an arbitrary timeframe.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not to the Tories. Oh sure, fewer will admit that than say it, but not to get all HYUFD on this, but the polling seems pretty clear Tories by and large see it as a price worth paying, and as we've seen someone suggesting it should come first gets attacked as not believing in Brexit enough to see it happen. The clear implication being the candidate who does not want to put the Union first is the one to go for as they will deliver Brexit.

    The Tories have totally lost it. We've joked about it for some time, but May however incompetently was trying to restrain the most intense tribe within them, but they really are now nothing but the Brexit Party. Any policy announcements are clearly fluff as the Conservative and Unionist Party, by majority of its members at least, does not even care about the Union.
    OK, who am I parodying? Here goes:

    "I ask you: do you want Total Brexit? If necessary, do you want a Brexit more total and radical than anything that we can even yet imagine?"

    […]
    Dr. Goebbels?

    (Amusingly, there was an MEP called Dr. Goebbels).
    Yes, it was Dr. Goebbels in his Sportspalast speech of early 1943, in the aftermath of Stalingrad.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    Actually one of the funniest books I read was Splke Milligan’s Puckoon where they describe how the border was determined.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428
    Scott_P said:
    Perhaps this is a silly question, but how does blocking all government spending help the country if, god forbid, we do get no deal Brexit? This sounds like the plan that we should not spend any money on no deal preparation because no deal is bad, but that just means if it does happen we are even more screwed.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 2,785

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
    Sovereignty without control over your national borders is a bit like saying you have total control over who you to choose who you sleep with, except when you don't.

    My borders, my choice!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,741

    Alistair said:
    There is nothing the death cult will not sacrifice to secure their idea of Brexit.
    Ruth’s ‘Operation Arse’ is going swimmingly, n’est-ce pas?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,163
    nichomar said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    Actually one of the funniest books I read was Splke Milligan’s Puckoon where they describe how the border was determined.
    Until the Brexit debate I thought that such a scene was impossible.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428
    _Anazina_ said:
    Most Tories likely agree with her. What else does leave by 31 Oct 'do or die' mean if not being prepared to sacrifice anything to do it?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191
    kyf_100 said:

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
    Sovereignty without control over your national borders is a bit like saying you have total control over who you to choose who you sleep with, except when you don't.

    My borders, my choice!
    In which case, sovereighty for Newcastle upon Tyne!

    In fact, screw that, sovereignty for my parish! Without full control over the borders of our parish I don't know what we'd do. No amount of job losses is too many!
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,191
    edited June 2019
    You brexiteers cant even agree what the borders of our 'nation' even are. To some of you it's England. To some of you it's Great Britain. To some of you it's the UK. Madness.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,472

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    Each of the islands forms a natural unit given by geology, climate change about 18,000 years ago, and nature. I have a bias in favour of each being united, though long history plainly suggests that Scotland and Wales should be seen as units with a qualified right to decide the matter for themselves. Personally I would always vote for a united Ireland and (though this is sadly off the agenda probably for ever) would vote for a united two islands - the New Zealand solution.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 41,021
    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    I sometimes wish there was a filter function on here so to not have to read the same thing over and over again.

    Cue for Sunil to post the referendum result and the halo emoji....
    Leave 48%
    Remain 52%

    :innocent:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,163

    kyf_100 said:

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
    Sovereignty without control over your national borders is a bit like saying you have total control over who you to choose who you sleep with, except when you don't.

    My borders, my choice!
    In which case, sovereighty for Newcastle upon Tyne!

    In fact, screw that, sovereignty for my parish! Without full control over the borders of our parish I don't know what we'd do. No amount of job losses is too many!
    Reactivate the Northumbrian dream. A Geordie (sort of) speaking state from Middlesborough to Berwick.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,741

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    That’s Tories in a nutshell: wise after the event. In this case, 98 years after the event.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,163
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    Each of the islands forms a natural unit given by geology, climate change about 18,000 years ago, and nature. I have a bias in favour of each being united, though long history plainly suggests that Scotland and Wales should be seen as units with a qualified right to decide the matter for themselves. Personally I would always vote for a united Ireland and (though this is sadly off the agenda probably for ever) would vote for a united two islands - the New Zealand solution.

    Linguistically and genetically one could argue for a two state Wales.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,900
    edited June 2019

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    It may not be a forced choice anyway.

    Yougov has had Scots backing a Canada style FTA with the EU 43% to 24% even if Scots oppose No Deal Brexit 45% to 28%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    kyf_100 said:

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
    Sovereignty without control over your national borders is a bit like saying you have total control over who you to choose who you sleep with, except when you don't.

    My borders, my choice!
    In which case, sovereighty for Newcastle upon Tyne!

    In fact, screw that, sovereignty for my parish! Without full control over the borders of our parish I don't know what we'd do. No amount of job losses is too many!
    If Geordies, like Scots, want to go independent I'd respect that. Free will.

    Same as if we want to leave the EU. Freedom and free choice is more important than unity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,428

    You brexiteers cant even agree what the borders of our 'nation' even are. To some of you it's England. To some of you it's Great Britain. To some of you it's the UK. Madness.

    Many people in these islands have very different ideas what this nation is or should be, and that's fine. But I had kind of thought the Tories might care about the official national overall. They do not. Not anymore.
  • herehareherehereharehere Posts: 4
    edited June 2019
    Pulpstar said:

    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21

    What's going on with his chin ?
    how-to-get-ahead-in-advertising-37dcf7ed-0af3-45db-8dab-882d619096f-resize-750.png
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,427
    algarkirk said:

    Each of the islands forms a natural unit given by geology, climate change about 18,000 years ago, and nature. I have a bias in favour of each being united, though long history plainly suggests that Scotland and Wales should be seen as units with a qualified right to decide the matter for themselves. Personally I would always vote for a united Ireland and (though this is sadly off the agenda probably for ever) would vote for a united two islands - the New Zealand solution.

    If you favour a united two islands, the only realistic way it could ever come about again starts with the break up of the UK, and then at some point in the distant future, an EU-style federation might be able to be created made up of sovereign states. (In practice we've already got the EU for that.)
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,741
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    It may not be a forced choice anyway.

    Yougov has had Scots backing a Canada style FTA with the EU 43% to 25% even if Scots oppose No Deal Brexit 45% to 28%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    A Canada style FTA needs a deal. The EU have disbanded their negotiating team. How are you going to agree a new deal before Halloween?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    Not necessarily. I support leave (sane versions only). If I had a vote in the matter (I won't) I would always vote for a united Ireland. Both positions are consistent with centrist politics, NI having the, qualified, right of self determination, including the right to join the rest of Ireland if it thought fit.

    Sorry, by Union, I was thinking more of Scotland and Wales.

    Ireland, with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, should never have been partitioned.
    Each of the islands forms a natural unit given by geology, climate change about 18,000 years ago, and nature. I have a bias in favour of each being united, though long history plainly suggests that Scotland and Wales should be seen as units with a qualified right to decide the matter for themselves. Personally I would always vote for a united Ireland and (though this is sadly off the agenda probably for ever) would vote for a united two islands - the New Zealand solution.

    Linguistically and genetically one could argue for a two state Wales.
    Genetically? Are Gallophone Welsh a different race from Anglophone Welsh?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 48,717

    I bet you most people couldn’t tell you the difference between a customs union, single market and a FTA in terms of day to day effects.

    My favourite thing is the discussion of A customs union versus The customs union.
    Half the ERG couldn't tell the difference between A customs union, The customs union and the Public and Commercial Services Union.

    Their sole aim is to Disunite the Union.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,840
    Scott_P said:
    Golly, so No Deal means no NHS salaries, no pensions .....
  • RogerRoger Posts: 16,585
    edited June 2019
    I do think Labour politicians should get a grip. Williamson suggested Labour had self flagellated for so long that people thought their anti-semitism was more institutional than he thought it was. Tom Watson was the torch-bearer for his dismissal.

    .........Tom Watson who called a dying Leon Britten 'As close to evil as any human being could get'. You wouldn't need an imagination to guess how the cancer ridden Britten and his family must have felt during his final few months.

    Watson's outburst was sparked by a meeting with a fantasist whose story was so far-fetched no one but a complete idiot -or her majesty's constabulary- would have given it a second glance.

    My question to Watson would be this: If Williamson can't be forgiven for being insensitive why should you be?.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,427

    kyf_100 said:

    Why are people shocked that Brexit is more important than the Union?

    Our sovereignty is more important than the European Union so why not the United Kingdom?

    Where does your 'sovereignty' stop? Nation? Region? County? Parish? Postcode?
    Individual.

    Like a woman's right to choose, sovereignty over your body, life and actions should rest first and foremost with yourself and only taken as small a step away from you as absolutely necessary.
    Well in that case stop talking about 'our' sovereignty as I was entirely sovereign within the EU thank you.
    Sovereignty without control over your national borders is a bit like saying you have total control over who you to choose who you sleep with, except when you don't.

    My borders, my choice!
    In which case, sovereighty for Newcastle upon Tyne!

    In fact, screw that, sovereignty for my parish! Without full control over the borders of our parish I don't know what we'd do. No amount of job losses is too many!
    If Geordies, like Scots, want to go independent I'd respect that. Free will.

    Same as if we want to leave the EU. Freedom and free choice is more important than unity.
    Would you favour a partition of England so that die-hard Remainers don't disrupt the independent Republic of Brexitlandia?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,678

    NEW THREAD

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,900

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    It may not be a forced choice anyway.

    Yougov has had Scots backing a Canada style FTA with the EU 43% to 25% even if Scots oppose No Deal Brexit 45% to 28%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    A Canada style FTA needs a deal. The EU have disbanded their negotiating team. How are you going to agree a new deal before Halloween?
    By passing the Withdrawal Agreement by winning a Tory majority, removing the temporary Customs Union for GB which May imposed not Barnier and let Northern Ireland voters decide on the backstop which Barnier does require
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,636
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Perhaps this is a silly question, but how does blocking all government spending help the country if, god forbid, we do get no deal Brexit? This sounds like the plan that we should not spend any money on no deal preparation because no deal is bad, but that just means if it does happen we are even more screwed.
    I have nothing but contempt for MPs who think this is in any way a good idea.

    Crippling the country in this way is pretty much an act of treason
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,113
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Alistair said:
    That...is a remarkable tweet. I know that is now what most Tories believe, but it is still staggering to see a commentator lay it out so plainly. Brexit trumps everything, even the very nation that it is supposed to be for.

    And let's not kid ourselves, it is pretty clear that that is mainstream Tory opinion, given their 'do or die' attitude to Brexit (short of, you know, voting for it when it was offered). It is not a few extreme views, even if some are wishy washy about it. If Brexit is everything, then this kind of view is absolutely what the Tories now stand for.

    And I'm supposed to be appalled at what Corbyn would do in comparison?
    The Union is surely more important than Brexit.
    It may not be a forced choice anyway.

    Yougov has had Scots backing a Canada style FTA with the EU 43% to 24% even if Scots oppose No Deal Brexit 45% to 28%

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    And, more recently than that, good news for the Tories, leading strongly with YouGov:
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/mrfbguqp4r/SundayTimesResults_170505_VI_W.pdf

    Con 47%, Lab 28%, LD 11% and the Brexit Party nowhere to be found.

    Mind you, that's from May 2017, but that's still 9 months more recent than your poll.
    (I think things may have changed from these snapshots, by the way)
This discussion has been closed.