Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov finds just 28% wanting a no deal against 43% wanting to

124

Comments

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,190

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Yes.

    I may not like the Customs Union and it is a very, very stupid thing to do but I would absolutely accept it as it is still leaving and, at present, is the choice of the majority. I have always contended that the question in 2016 did not say what form of Leave we should have so as long as we do leave any and everything is up for debate and compromise.
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    I'm not sure about that. I think Labour and die-hard remainers would find reasons to vote against any deal. Labour sees the chaos as way to power and die hard remainers see it as a route to another referendum and/or revoke.
    Since May ruled out that compromise on taking office rather than putting Labour on the spot, that is pure speculation on your part. Given what people were saying at the time, I honestly think you are wrong. But we will never know for sure.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,685
    So over to his CLP to dump him. Do your duty Comrades.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 26,074
    DougSeal said:



    Glad to see I’m not the only one...

    Nope there are a few of you suffering from the same psychosis.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,414

    I'm not sure about that. I think Labour and die-hard remainers would find reasons to vote against any deal. Labour sees the chaos as way to power and die hard remainers see it as a route to another referendum and/or revoke.

    Yes, absolutely. There was not a snowflake's chance in hell of Labour supporting any kind of deal at all. They just want as much chaos as possible, as long as they can blame it on the Tories. Indeed, they wouldn't even vote for the Withdrawal Agreement in isolation - the agreement that would be essential for what they pretend was their preferred option. It's complete fantasy to think there might have been some kind of cross-party agreement on the form of Brexit.
    It might have been possible had May tried to find common ground from day 1 when she became PM in 2016. At that point most remainers thought the referendum result was irrevocable and the debate should move on to what Brexit would mean in practice. I attended a meeting in, I think, September 2016 at which Keir Starmer dismissed any chance of the UK remaining in the EU. But May decided to eschew consensus and make Brexit a Tory-only project thus making herself into a hostage of the ERG and killing any chance of a cross-party approach.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,840
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Charles said:

    Just to check I understand the header? Haven’t read the BTL yet

    57% want to leave the E.U., just more than half of who would prefer a deal vs no deal.

    Almost as many people (42% vs 43%) rank staying in the EU as their least preferred option

    And yet, from the way the header is written, this is presented as good news for Remain?

    59% want to stay in the CU & SM.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 10,754

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    I know some people might find it a bit rich for me to say, but calm down chaps!
    As Richard came to my aid the other day, I feel obliged to say that though he is a believer in Brexit (which I am not), I do not believe he is, unlike some Brexit supporters, a fascist/Faragist scumbag.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 26,074
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Funny, as I seem to remember it my side actually won. So yes. Loser defines you very well. Lunatic loser even better.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Yes.

    I may not like the Customs Union and it is a very, very stupid thing to do but I would absolutely accept it as it is still leaving and, at present, is the choice of the majority. I have always contended that the question in 2016 did not say what form of Leave we should have so as long as we do leave any and everything is up for debate and compromise.
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 10,754

    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.
    It gives a good indicator that almost 30% of our population are mad, gullible or uneducated. 10% each maybe.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 50,504
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,636
    Scott_P said:
    An utterly weak response - more interested in her own career than what is right.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 10,754
    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    whoah, that is pretty nasty. pack it in please.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 10,754

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
    indeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 48,600

    Scott_P said:
    An utterly weak response - more interested in her own career than what is right.
    The key thing in Corbynista land is to be left rather than right.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,190

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Funny, as I seem to remember it my side actually won. So yes. Loser defines you very well. Lunatic loser even better.
    No. My football team got relegated too this year, and my political party hasn’t won a general election since before WW1, but neither of those make me a “loser” either, and their winning would, conversely, not make me a winner. I’m not some sad individual like you who bases an individual’s worth on such identifiers.

    You, on the other hand, have my deepest sympathy on the way your life has turned out. You are, in the generally accepted sense of a person who fails frequently or is unsuccessful in life, a loser. Your sad attempts to insult your way out of that status betray you.
  • NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 584

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Yes.

    I may not like the Customs Union and it is a very, very stupid thing to do but I would absolutely accept it as it is still leaving and, at present, is the choice of the majority. I have always contended that the question in 2016 did not say what form of Leave we should have so as long as we do leave any and everything is up for debate and compromise.
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290
    I see with the Williamson news someone has helpfully provided a dead cat for the Tory leadership candidates so they don't need to produce one.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 40,414
    NeilVW said:


    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    If that had been the position at Lancaster House, possibly, but not from where we are now.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,685
    kle4 said:

    I see with the Williamson news someone has helpfully provided a dead cat for the Tory leadership candidates so they don't need to produce one.

    I thought it was the dead cat to deflect from the 'debate' over Brexit policy at the top of the Labour Party.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    AnneJGP said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    I wonder whether the way towards a 'deal' that will more-or-less satisfy more-or-less most is to have a very squishy sort of 'Remain' that includes a mandatory referendum every time there's a change from the status quo of the EU. If it doesn't pass the UK's referendum, it doesn't apply to the UK.
    AnneJGP said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    I wonder whether the way towards a 'deal' that will more-or-less satisfy more-or-less most is to have a very squishy sort of 'Remain' that includes a mandatory referendum every time there's a change from the status quo of the EU. If it doesn't pass the UK's referendum, it doesn't apply to the UK.
    AnneJGP said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    I wonder whether the way towards a 'deal' that will more-or-less satisfy more-or-less most is to have a very squishy sort of 'Remain' that includes a mandatory referendum every time there's a change from the status quo of the EU. If it doesn't pass the UK's referendum, it doesn't apply to the UK.
    Delete
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313
    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,636
    #EnoughisEnough isn't playing that well for Creasy.

    Unless she (and others) do more than tweet, they are just enabling hate to be perpetuated.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 34,705

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
    Yeah it's a tricky one isn't it. Reasonably creative insult vs charges of being mentally ill.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 48,600
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
    Yeah it's a tricky one isn't it. Reasonably creative insult vs charges of being mentally ill.
    I was assuming it was aimed at both of them.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 20,848
    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
    Yeah it's a tricky one isn't it. Reasonably creative insult vs charges of being mentally ill.
    Indeed. Also, why do these angry spats so often involve one of these two parties? (And I don't mean @DougSeal)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Yes.

    I may not like the Customs Union and it is a very, very stupid thing to do but I would absolutely accept it as it is still leaving and, at present, is the choice of the majority. I have always contended that the question in 2016 did not say what form of Leave we should have so as long as we do leave any and everything is up for debate and compromise.
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 70,193

    #EnoughisEnough isn't playing that well for Creasy.

    Unless she (and others) do more than tweet, they are just enabling hate to be perpetuated.

    Jess Philips getting called out on this one too
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Snip
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
    Have You Used Favourable Data? (HYUFD)

    Are you still supporting the immature clown with the blond hair? Or have your affections moved elsewhere since I last checked in?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,685
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Yes.

    nd compromise.
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
    Because it would have been passed by Parliament, we would have left the EU in March, May would still have a job and we wouldn't be faced with the prospect of a buffoon in Downing Street.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Because it would have been passed by Parliament, we would have left the EU in March, May would still have a job and we wouldn't be faced with the prospect of a buffoon in Downing Street.

    How would it have passed Parliament?

    It would have more divided the Tories and Corbyn would have still opposed it as a "Tory Brexit".
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,685

    Because it would have been passed by Parliament, we would have left the EU in March, May would still have a job and we wouldn't be faced with the prospect of a buffoon in Downing Street.

    How would it have passed Parliament?

    It would have more divided the Tories and Corbyn would have still opposed it as a "Tory Brexit".
    Well we'll never know now.

    We'll have to settle for the buffoon.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 18,455
    You have to award it to the M&Ms (McClusky, Milne, Murphy, Murray - the Stalinist Cabal who run Corbyn). Just when the focus was on Boris trying to answer the question of how many children he has, they decide to Take Back Control and instigate stupidity in the form of reinstating Voldemort.

    That they would proclaim him clean isn't that surprising. Nor sadly is the response from the Cancer Cult to those people horrified that he has been allowed back.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Because it would have been passed by Parliament, we would have left the EU in March, May would still have a job and we wouldn't be faced with the prospect of a buffoon in Downing Street.

    How would it have passed Parliament?

    It would have more divided the Tories and Corbyn would have still opposed it as a "Tory Brexit".
    Well we'll never know now.

    We'll have to settle for the buffoon.
    Of course we know. Corbyn would never ever have backed "a Tory Brexit" no matter what, especially when these divisions today would have been there but worse probably.

    I'm quite happy to have Boris and if we end up with a harder Brexit than May planned I rather hope nobody who rejected May's deal complains.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019

    TOPPING said:

    DougSeal said:

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    “Loser”. Coming from you that redefines irony. Then again, given you look like a Bedtime Originals Plush Toy that’s been badly reassembled after being ripped apart by a particularly zealous customs officer, your sense of perspective is bound to be skewed.
    Completely uncalled for personal abuse. Have you considered another forum might be more suitable for you?
    Yeah it's a tricky one isn't it. Reasonably creative insult vs charges of being mentally ill.
    Indeed. Also, why do these angry spats so often involve one of these two parties? (And I don't mean @DougSeal)
    I’m sure this reflects the rules of this site but I think posters should adopt the same social etiquette they would if they were not hiding behind a ‘handle’ if it is wrong to describe x as y in public face to face then it’s wrong on here. We all feel the need to let of steam occasionally but let’s try and find language which would not be acceptable down the pub.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    _Anazina_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    There's a very real chance due to the lie of the FPTP arithmetic that there is a remain majority in the country and at the next election essentially a leave majority is returned in some form or another (BXP + Con + DUP majority).
    Will remainers have parliamentary sovereignty as their utmost concern in that situation ?
    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Snip
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
    Have You Used Favourable Data? (HYUFD)

    Are you still supporting the immature clown with the blond hair? Or have your affections moved elsewhere since I last checked in?
    Of course, I back Boris to deliver the GB FTA most voters want
  • eekeek Posts: 19,210
    HYUFD said:


    Of course, I back Boris to deliver the GB FTA most voters want

    So once again, what do you mean by a FTA especially one that is a GB FTA?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019

    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
    Most voters actually want not a No Deal, May's Deal or SM and CU Brexit.

    Most voters want a FTA for GB with the EU which was not included as an option in the above poll.

    As Yougov has showed before 50% of voters think a Canada style FTA would be a good Brexit outcome, to just 35% for a Norway style soft Brexit and 30% for a No Deal hard Brexit

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,636
    Pulpstar said:

    #EnoughisEnough isn't playing that well for Creasy.

    Unless she (and others) do more than tweet, they are just enabling hate to be perpetuated.

    Jess Philips getting called out on this one too
    Yep - I am being followed by a whole new set of people as result of my comments!!

    Creasy, Streeting, Philips are just making noise. There is no evidence of them actually doing anything that has any real effect.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    HYUFD said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years to come.

    This poll is a reminder that some version of a deal is the only way to unite the country. Hard Brexit is a huge problem for 46%, Hard Remain for 42%. A pragmatic, squishy deal is never going to be loved but anything else unleashes further and deeper hell.

    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Snip
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
    Have You Used Favourable Data? (HYUFD)

    Are you still supporting the immature clown with the blond hair? Or have your affections moved elsewhere since I last checked in?
    Of course, I back Boris to deliver the GB FTA most voters want
    There is no GB FTA on the table there is the WA, leave or revoke remain where did this GB FTA come from?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:


    Of course, I back Boris to deliver the GB FTA most voters want

    So once again, what do you mean by a FTA especially one that is a GB FTA?
    GB leaves the Single Market and Customs Union but has a FTA with the EU only.

    Northern Ireland voters decide on the backstop for NI by referendum to avoid a hard border with the Republic of Ireland
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019
    nichomar said:

    HYUFD said:

    _Anazina_ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    People who get their fourth and last choice ultimately will be angry and disillusioned for many years her and deeper hell.

    Well according to the poll at the top of this page there certainly doesn't seem to be a Remain majority. Like Charles I do smile at the ability of OGH to spin this as good news for Remain when 57% have some form of Leave as their first choice.
    57% have some form of Leave as their first choice, so we should leave.
    OK, if you think that, do you also think the following:
    59% think we should stay in the single market and customs union, so we should stay in the single market and customs union?
    Snip
    That has always been the obvious compromise solution, and I for one have always been willing to accept that. But the failure to compromise has always been on the part of Leavers, including converts like May. A SM+CU Brexit would have won in the Hoc by the same margin her wretched deal lost by the first time around.
    No it wouldn't since Labour etc oppose the deal because it is Tory not because of the contents of the deal. They would have opposed anything.
    I don't think that is true. At the very least, enough Labour MPs would have rebelled to get a SM+CU deal through. And the DUP would have supported it because there would be no backstop. But we will never know because the Tories refused to compromise. Sad!
    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?
    Have You Used Favourable Data? (HYUFD)

    Are you still supporting the immature clown with the blond hair? Or have your affections moved elsewhere since I last checked in?
    Of course, I back Boris to deliver the GB FTA most voters want
    There is no GB FTA on the table there is the WA, leave or revoke remain where did this GB FTA come from?
    It was omitted on this poll but 50% backed a FTA only with the EU in a previous Yougov poll, more than the 43% for Remain, the 28% for No Deal, the 16% for SM and Customs Union and the 13% for May's Deal on the above poll

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remember, “respect” is a one way street. One must respect the referendum result and bugger everyone else. Respect is earned, not automatic.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Feels like New Zealand have allowed the crowd at Edgbaston to get to them a bit. Maybe that's unfair.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:



    It was omitted on this poll but 50% backed a FTA only with the EU in a previous Yougov poll, more than the 43% for Remain, the 28% for No Deal, the 16% for SM and Customs Union and the 13% for May's Deal on the above poll

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-

    The FTA is May's deal without the implications for the Irish border being spelled out. The fact that May's deal is so unpopular simply reflects the fact that once people understood the implications, they no longer liked this option.
    Anyway, this poll is almost three years old and a lot has changed since then. For instance, many more Leavers want to leave with no deal now. And fewer Remainers feel the need to honour the referendum result. So this FTA option is simply another unicorn that has not survived contact with reality or public opinion.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Long time Labour activist in Richmond upon Thames Barnaby Marder has announced his resignation from the Labour Party on the Vote2012 forum in response to the Chris Williamson re-admittance.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,112
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
    Most voters actually want not a No Deal, May's Deal or SM and CU Brexit.

    Most voters want a FTA for GB with the EU which was not included as an option in the above poll.

    As Yougov has showed before 50% of voters think a Canada style FTA would be a good Brexit outcome, to just 35% for a Norway style soft Brexit and 30% for a No Deal hard Brexit

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    Ah, but Mori has shown that 66% of people want to Remain, versus just 22% who want to leave (12% undecided).

    Yes, I can choose a poll from years ago as well. And, as it happens, that poll is
    far closer in time to the more-than-three-years-old poll you cite as trumping one from this week.

    Seriously, why do you do it? It just looks like pathetic scrabbling for rationalisation.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:

    Long time Labour activist in Richmond upon Thames Barnaby Marder has announced his resignation from the Labour Party on the Vote2012 forum in response to the Chris Williamson re-admittance.

    Interesting - Barnaby is very left wing.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    I sometimes wish there was a filter function on here so to not have to read the same thing over and over again.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,045
    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003
    nichomar said:

    I sometimes wish there was a filter function on here so to not have to read the same thing over and over again.

    Cue for Sunil to post the referendum result and the halo emoji....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,007

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Yes and presumably therefore yes. I dunno what he did to trigger this, but some of his tweets have certainly sailed close to wind.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003
    edited June 2019
    AndyJS said:

    Long time Labour activist in Richmond upon Thames Barnaby Marder has announced his resignation from the Labour Party on the Vote2012 forum in response to the Chris Williamson re-admittance.

    Remarkable. He is very prolific on online forums including anything to do with boundary reviews.

    Anyway, it must have been tough for him, last gay in the village and all.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,045
    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003

    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
    Wasn’t he recently banned?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,410

    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.

    I don't think there is going to be No Deal, so something else is going to be the deciding factor; there is a chance however slight that No Deal would happen and prove less damaging than expected - after all the expectations are such that it would do quite well if following No Deal we avoid nuclear wipe out, mass starvation, the collapse of transportation and the death of every NHS patient.

    The caravan will move on somehow, and Labour are in the tricky position that at the moment they don't have a mechanism for avoiding a continuing hard left take over. Current polling would suggest that this plus a Europe policy which is so bad and confused it doesn't even qualify as a unicorn (not least because no-one actually knows what it is) is damaging Labour even more than the Tories lamentable show is damaging them.

    Buy shares in the LibDems??

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,045
    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
    Wasn’t he recently banned?
    I'd missed that being reported clearly....
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 20,829
    AndyJS said:

    Feels like New Zealand have allowed the crowd at Edgbaston to get to them a bit. Maybe that's unfair.

    A little. Pakistan bowled and fielded superbly. Did what was needed with the bat. Aided by the crowd I guess. NZ really ought to be asking why they didn't pick 2 specialist spinners.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019
    IanB2 said:

    nichomar said:

    I sometimes wish there was a filter function on here so to not have to read the same thing over and over again.

    Cue for Sunil to post the referendum result and the halo emoji....
    I know I’ve got nothing better to do than pass my time here but it’s sad to see so many others in the same boat! But it is better than corrie and east Enders.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
    He seems to have picked a new name: https://twitter.com/ExStrategist
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
    Wasn’t he recently banned?
    I'd missed that being reported clearly....
    It was discussed here on PB but I can’t remember the details.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019
    Yougov has a Tory members' poll out with Boris leading Hunt 74% to 26% (though fieldwork finished on 21st June)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/25/incredible-rise-and-fall-and-rise-boris-johnson
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
    May's Deal has a temporary Customs Union for GB actually
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,596
    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.

    I don't think there is going to be No Deal, so something else is going to be the deciding factor; there is a chance however slight that No Deal would happen and prove less damaging than expected - after all the expectations are such that it would do quite well if following No Deal we avoid nuclear wipe out, mass starvation, the collapse of transportation and the death of every NHS patient.

    The caravan will move on somehow, and Labour are in the tricky position that at the moment they don't have a mechanism for avoiding a continuing hard left take over. Current polling would suggest that this plus a Europe policy which is so bad and confused it doesn't even qualify as a unicorn (not least because no-one actually knows what it is) is damaging Labour even more than the Tories lamentable show is damaging them.

    Buy shares in the LibDems??

    I think No Deal is possible. This is a good take from Ivan Rodgers. I expect in that case for No Deal to be a humiliating interim phase,rather than an end state for the reasons Rodgers sets out.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1142888025548099584
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
    Most voters actually want not a No Deal, May's Deal or SM and CU Brexit.

    Most voters want a FTA for GB with the EU which was not included as an option in the above poll.

    As Yougov has showed before 50% of voters think a Canada style FTA would be a good Brexit outcome, to just 35% for a Norway style soft Brexit and 30% for a No Deal hard Brexit

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    Ah, but Mori has shown that 66% of people want to Remain, versus just 22% who want to leave (12% undecided).

    Yes, I can choose a poll from years ago as well. And, as it happens, that poll is
    far closer in time to the more-than-three-years-old poll you cite as trumping one from this week.

    Seriously, why do you do it? It just looks like pathetic scrabbling for rationalisation.
    Show me one poll though showing voters do not want a Canada style FTA for GB?
    I can show you plenty showing most voters still want to Leave the EU
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 40,003

    DougSeal said:



    I’m not seeking to overturn the result - I’d prefer an EEA Brexit over all other options but they have been rejected by your side, and even if I were it would be with a supervening democratic event. Like a second referendum - which is not the position of a “small minority” by any means.

    When Lincolnshire’s Gauleiter Tyndall is stomping my face in with his jackboot in the service of the Faragist paradise he spent so long seeking to achieve, I shall take solace in knowing the fetching leather is worn by Britain’s wittiest man, the new Wilde.

    I had thought you were just another sad whining loser. Now I see you are actually mentally ill. You have my sympathies. Or at least those who have to take care of you do.
    Time to think about taking another break from PB.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 14,139

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    If you look at remainers/leavers in the Tory party it is the remainers who have both compromised more and been more loyal.

    If you look at the Labour party they have opposed whether leave/remain for party political benefits, not because they are remain/leave.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,646

    AndyJS said:

    Has tim been removed from twitter? Did I miss that happening?

    Do you mean OsborneGenius?
    Yup - might be being thick but I can't find it, was interested on his response to the chief wingnut being welcomed back in to the cult/party.
    He's changed his handle

    https://twitter.com/ExStrategist
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    HYUFD said:



    It was omitted on this poll but 50% backed a FTA only with the EU in a previous Yougov poll, more than the 43% for Remain, the 28% for No Deal, the 16% for SM and Customs Union and the 13% for May's Deal on the above poll

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-

    The FTA is May's deal without the implications for the Irish border being spelled out. The fact that May's deal is so unpopular simply reflects the fact that once people understood the implications, they no longer liked this option.
    Anyway, this poll is almost three years old and a lot has changed since then. For instance, many more Leavers want to leave with no deal now. And fewer Remainers feel the need to honour the referendum result. So this FTA option is simply another unicorn that has not survived contact with reality or public opinion.
    No, May's Deal requires a temporary Customs Union for GB unlike a FTA for GB.

    The Northern Ireland backstop can be decided by voters in NI by referendum
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,080
    HYUFD said:

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
    May's Deal has a temporary Customs Union for GB actually
    Ok, but you must admit that's nit-picking.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
    Most voters actually want not a No Deal, May's Deal or SM and CU Brexit.

    Most voters want a FTA for GB with the EU which was not included as an option in the above poll.

    As Yougov has showed before 50% of voters think a Canada style FTA would be a good Brexit outcome, to just 35% for a Norway style soft Brexit and 30% for a No Deal hard Brexit

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    Ah, but Mori has shown that 66% of people want to Remain, versus just 22% who want to leave (12% undecided).

    Yes, I can choose a poll from years ago as well. And, as it happens, that poll is
    far closer in time to the more-than-three-years-old poll you cite as trumping one from this week.

    Seriously, why do you do it? It just looks like pathetic scrabbling for rationalisation.
    Show me one poll though showing voters do not want a Canada style FTA for GB?
    I can show you plenty showing most voters still want to Leave the EU
    Have
    You
    Used
    Favourable
    Data

    ?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 18,182
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Why should the Tories have agreed only their voters third favourite option for Labour and LD voters second favourite option when the Tories won a majority of seats in 2017 in GB?

    That attitude is why Brexit hasn't happened and might well never happen. Which is fine with me, obvs. But don't blame Remainers.
    Most voters actually want not a No Deal, May's Deal or SM and CU Brexit.

    Most voters want a FTA for GB with the EU which was not included as an option in the above poll.

    As Yougov has showed before 50% of voters think a Canada style FTA would be a good Brexit outcome, to just 35% for a Norway style soft Brexit and 30% for a No Deal hard Brexit

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/08/18/majority-people-think-freedom-movement-fair-price-
    Ah, but Mori has shown that 66% of people want to Remain, versus just 22% who want to leave (12% undecided).

    Yes, I can choose a poll from years ago as well. And, as it happens, that poll is
    far closer in time to the more-than-three-years-old poll you cite as trumping one from this week.

    Seriously, why do you do it? It just looks like pathetic scrabbling for rationalisation.
    Show me one poll though showing voters do not want a Canada style FTA for GB?
    I can show you plenty showing most voters still want to Leave the EU
    FTA as opposed to what?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    HYUFD said:

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
    May's Deal has a temporary Customs Union for GB actually
    Ok, but you must admit that's nit-picking.
    It isn't, most Leavers want to Leave the Single Market and Customs Union not stay in a potentially indefinite Customs Union
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Alistair said:
    There is nothing the death cult will not sacrifice to secure their idea of Brexit.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,045
    thank you for pointing me in the new direction....

    O/t being at Lords yesterday was like being at Wembley for Spurs in a semi-final.... almost identical emotions.. and usual outcome.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842
    edited June 2019
    HYUFD said:

    Yougov has a Tory members' poll out with Boris leading Hunt 74% to 26% (though fieldwork finished on 21st June)

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/25/incredible-rise-and-fall-and-rise-boris-johnson

    Boris has a more narrow lead with pre 2015 Tory members, 68% to 32% for Hunt and Hunt even leads with Tory members who voted Remain by 65% to 35% for Boris but post 2017 Tory members overwhelmingly back Boris 82% to 18% as do Tory members who voted Leave who prefer Boris 87% to 13% for Hunt putting Boris over 70% overall

    https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/06/25/incredible-rise-and-fall-and-rise-boris-johnson
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The integrity of the proprietor of one of Britain’s newest start-up companies is sadly being severely impugned:

    https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1143950859677704193?s=21
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 101,646

    thank you for pointing me in the new direction....

    O/t being at Lords yesterday was like being at Wembley for Spurs in a semi-final.... almost identical emotions.. and usual outcome.

    Thank God Liverpool won the Champions League, that and Lewis Hamilton apart, this is looking to be an awful sporting year for me.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
    May's Deal has a temporary Customs Union for GB actually
    "temporary". The end state is a goods only FTA. Hard Brexit.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 5,410
    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    algarkirk said:

    28% is a very shallow pool for both the Brexit party and the Conservative party to be fishing in.

    But larger than the pool of those who understand and agree with labour's policy on Europe - which for obvious reasons is approx 0%.
    If no deal Brexit is implemented, that figure of 28% will be one to return to when looking at how polling moves.

    I don't think there is going to be No Deal, so something else is going to be the deciding factor; there is a chance however slight that No Deal would happen and prove less damaging than expected - after all the expectations are such that it would do quite well if following No Deal we avoid nuclear wipe out, mass starvation, the collapse of transportation and the death of every NHS patient.

    The caravan will move on somehow, and Labour are in the tricky position that at the moment they don't have a mechanism for avoiding a continuing hard left take over. Current polling would suggest that this plus a Europe policy which is so bad and confused it doesn't even qualify as a unicorn (not least because no-one actually knows what it is) is damaging Labour even more than the Tories lamentable show is damaging them.

    Buy shares in the LibDems??

    I think No Deal is possible. This is a good take from Ivan Rodgers. I expect in that case for No Deal to be a humiliating interim phase,rather than an end state for the reasons Rodgers sets out.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1142888025548099584

    Agree with most of Ivan Rogers, except that he goes a bit light on Labour's failure to support the only deal in town in the national interest when they could, and still think that No Deal is unlikely - we will revoke if faced with a choice between the two.

    Boris's (and Hunt's) intention is to try again to get TM's deal dressed up a bit and over the line. As a supporter of 'Norway for Now' that thought keeps alive (just) the faint hope of a sane Brexit.

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,045

    thank you for pointing me in the new direction....

    O/t being at Lords yesterday was like being at Wembley for Spurs in a semi-final.... almost identical emotions.. and usual outcome.

    Thank God Liverpool won the Champions League, that and Lewis Hamilton apart, this is looking to be an awful sporting year for me.
    The football thing is quite a saver! For me Andy Murray back on a tennis court is pretty cool to see too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 98,842

    HYUFD said:

    NeilVW said:



    Putting SM + CU in the PD would not have removed the need for the backstop in the WA.

    But it would have made its actual use unlikely and so I doubt it would have become the obstacle to an agreement that it has. Perhaps the EU would have accepted a less contentious mechanism if there was a clear UK commitment to staying in the SM and CU, who knows.
    But staying in the SM and CU would have violated the commitments made by both sides in the referendum.

    And its pretty close to the least popular option here backed by only 16% ...
    It is the most popular combining 1st and 2nd choices and so is a great compromise option. But Brexiteers can't compromise, as the Brexiteers on this thread are amply demonstrating.
    Spin.

    You can spin the stats whichever way you want. It is an unpopular option in its own right, would have violated the commitments made by both sides and it is Remain MPs in Parliament who have compromised the least.
    What opportunity have Remainers had to compromise? When have they been offered anything other than a yes/no vote on a deal which is the exact opposite of what they want? When did May reach out to consult them or offer them anything but insults?
    The fact is that in a polarised country any compromise will be unpopular in its own right. A deal which is embraced wholeheartedly by either side will be hated by the other and is by definition not a compromise. A deal that neither side like but both can live with is the best we can hope for. But if you want a fight to the death for a pure outcome fine, we can do that. I know which side will win (spoiler alert: not yours).
    Remainers have been given many an opportunity to compromise. They've been granted a BINO deal so soft that even Ken Clarke backed it.
    That is rewriting history. May's deal has no single market, no customs union and envisages a bare bones FTA for goods as the end state. It is hard Brexit. Clarke voted for it because he is a democrat who wanted to honour the referendum and loyal party member who wanted to help May.
    May's Deal has a temporary Customs Union for GB actually
    "temporary". The end state is a goods only FTA. Hard Brexit.
    We may never get there as May did not put a time limit on the GB temporary Customs Union for GB just as there is no time limit on the backstop for NI
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited June 2019
    Bloody hell cancelling the summer recess would be excessive and I don’t want parliament sitting anyway because they will get in the way (applause) you only have to listen to him he hasn’t got a clue about engineering, couldn’t even name one. How can anybody believe he is fit to work anywhere is beyond a joke.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 75,290

    #EnoughisEnough isn't playing that well for Creasy.

    Unless she (and others) do more than tweet, they are just enabling hate to be perpetuated.

    I do get the argument about fighting from within, and I get tribal loyalty to the Labour brand, but at this point can they really believe themselves when they say they care about all this? Either it is not really that big a deal, or it is and they don't care even if they say they care. I struggle to see the other alternatives.
This discussion has been closed.