politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Gove’s cocaine admission dominate just four of the front pages
Comments
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Lay him!Richard_Nabavi said:Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
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Was the film heat bad or was it the thought of appearing with Lorraine Kelly on breakfast telly the next day that brought it on?williamglenn said:0 -
Strong Q&A from Harper. Only 44 viewers on Reuters stream though.0
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And accordingly will sink without trace in the first round.Richard_Nabavi said:Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
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Yep.JackW said:
And accordingly will sink without trace in the first round.Richard_Nabavi said:Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
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What was the film? Might have had an excuse!williamglenn said:0 -
@JackW is above mere “winning”HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.0 -
What at 500-1 ?!DecrepitJohnL said:
Lay him!Richard_Nabavi said:Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
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The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.Philip_Thompson said:
No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.TOPPING said:
It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.Philip_Thompson said:
And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.nico67 said:Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .
I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .
The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .
Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.
In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.
Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.0 -
That's what I meant!DecrepitJohnL said:
Quantity anyway.Sunil_Prasannan said:10 candidates, twice the number of any recent Tory Leader contest.
Surely a case of quantity v. quality?0 -
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
Compromise.Slackbladder said:
The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.Philip_Thompson said:
No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.TOPPING said:
It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.Philip_Thompson said:
And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.nico67 said:Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .
I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .
The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .
Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.
In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.
Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.0 -
Saj has come across as an empty suit to me. I’d go with Stewart and Hunt as my top 2 and not have a thirdJonathan said:
Good list. My top three: Stewart, Hunt and Javid.JackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
The liberal vs the dullard vs the Saj
When Hancock comes on the telly I just feel sorry for him.
Gove is usually off his head and married to Lady Macbeth.
Leadsom is truly dire.
Raab, if only he was half as good as he thinks he is.
Boris cares about Boris only.
The others , meh.0 -
Um, a little later on, possibly. I'm not in the mood right now!Chris said:Brilliant idea of Andrea Leadsom's for a Volunteer Home Guard to defend Rockall against the EU.
No doubt some here will be interested in participating.
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Slightly more detail than that is requiredPhilip_Thompson said:
Compromise.Slackbladder said:
The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.Philip_Thompson said:
No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.TOPPING said:
It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.Philip_Thompson said:
And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.nico67 said:Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .
I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .
The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .
Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.
In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.
Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.0 -
You keep saying that word, I do not thing it means what you think it means...Philip_Thompson said:
Compromise.Slackbladder said:
The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.Philip_Thompson said:
No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.TOPPING said:
It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.Philip_Thompson said:
And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.nico67 said:Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .
I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .
The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .
Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.
In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.
Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.
The EU have laid our their position. What does the UK move on to secure a compromise?0 -
Good morning, everyone.
Mr. Charles, I agree, and so does my wallet.
Well, actually that'd be Hunt versus Gove. But I'd be content for Boris to fail.0 -
And the first debates are a couple of weeks away. They should see a few winners and losers.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is too early to write off Kamala Harris. She is almost bound to get a good showing in California which has the most delegates, and is earlier in the process this time round.kinabalu said:
Fessing up to bad bets is admirable and good for the soul. Never trust a punter who only talks of their winners.DecrepitJohnL said:My 200/1 Philip Hammond in a coronation to oust May is looking a bit dicey as well.
And in that spirit, I would like to disclose one, albeit not pertaining to Tory matters. I lumped on Kamala Harris at 8/1 for next POTUS. She is double that price now, and rightly so - simply not cutting through.
I wish I had done Elizabeth Warren.
And even Iowa is still eight months away. That is a long time in politics.
Warren is making waves (and I did ‘do Warren’ to borrow your slightly infelicitous phrase), but I’m not convinced by her comprehensive plans for everything. Given even a narrow Democratic majority in the Senate, their chances of comprehensive implementation are close to zero.
An incoming Democratic president will have to make some hard choices to get legislation through Congress, and what they will be able to achieve by executive order is much more limited.
And if they are really serious about starting to address climate change (I hope they are), that will consume most of the first term.0 -
You can't be real. No one real is this funny.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
Mark Francois says that you are wrong.Chris said:
You can't be real. No one real is this funny.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
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An empty suit can be of great value. In bridge.Charles said:
Saj has come across as an empty suit to me. I’d go with Stewart and Hunt as my top 2 and not have a thirdJonathan said:
Good list. My top three: Stewart, Hunt and Javid.JackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
The liberal vs the dullard vs the Saj
When Hancock comes on the telly I just feel sorry for him.
Gove is usually off his head and married to Lady Macbeth.
Leadsom is truly dire.
Raab, if only he was half as good as he thinks he is.
Boris cares about Boris only.
The others , meh.
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Naah. It'll be fine. The French will let us borrow some naval power (as the Tories have ensured we don't have enough sea power to fight a proper war) and then we'll treat Calais like we did Zanzibar.Chris said:
You can't be real. No one real is this funny.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
Rule Britannia, Brittania rules not much...0 -
So what compromise would you suggest the UK makes?Philip_Thompson said:
Compromise.Slackbladder said:
The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.Philip_Thompson said:
No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.TOPPING said:
It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.Philip_Thompson said:
And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.nico67 said:Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .
I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .
The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .
Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.
In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.
Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.0 -
I don’t know anything about the Raab caseNigelb said:
She was on R4 this morning talking about NDAs, and when asked about Raab’s use of one asserted that the claim against him in the employment tribunal case had been ‘vexatious’.nico67 said:
What did she say?Scott_P said:Has Maria Miller inadvertently committed some news?
Which rather blunted her otherwise sensible comments on the misuse of NDAs.
And raised the question of what basis she had for that assertion.
This was the agreement (which came to light when Raab sued the Mail on Sunday)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/dominic-raab-confidentiality-agreement-female-colleague
According to publicly available court documents, Raab’s confidentiality clause was agreed back in August 2007 — before he became an MP — when he was working as chief of staff to David Davis.
The documents said both Raab and Davis entered into a "compromise agreement" with a woman who also worked in Davis’s office.
The agreement brought to an end both the woman’s employment with Davis, and a claim she had made at an employment tribunal, according to a letter from Raab’s solicitor that is quoted in the court documents.
In 2011, Raab’s solicitor wrote to the woman warning that if she breached the terms of the agreement she would “be required to repay the sum [she was] paid in consideration for the confidentiality obligations”. She made clear she had no intention of breaching the agreement.
In 2012, Raab won an apology from the Mail on Sunday after it published “unfounded” allegations about his behaviour....
But a “compromise agreement” is utterly different from an NDA designed to gag and offence. It’s commonly used in redundancy situations - essentially an agreement to pay above the statutory minimum. In return the employee agrees not to badmouth the employer, keep the terms of the agreement confidential etc0 -
The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
Their position is unacceptable.Slackbladder said:
You keep saying that word, I do not thing it means what you think it means...Philip_Thompson said:
Compromise.Slackbladder said:The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.
The EU have laid our their position. What does the UK move on to secure a compromise?
The UK has already moved on what should be moved on. We have agreed a transition whereby: We pay them money, we follow their rules, we continue trading, we get no say. That is sufficient.
There is a ready-made trade agreement available to be implemented immediately, it is called the transition agreement. The backstop is not a part of the transition, it is only what happens afterwards if there is no agreement after the transition.
If the EU is prepared to risk no deal now in order to deal with what happens after then so am I. That is entirely consistent. If you want a compromise then implement the already agreed transition immediately and risk either no deal in a couple of years [rather than weeks] or have an agreement ready by then.1 -
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Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
True. Far too early to write her off. She might not be cutting through but neither has she blown up. It's more that I do not like that chunky 8/1 bet I'm sitting on. Right now, it's a rotten one.DecrepitJohnL said:It is too early to write off Kamala Harris. She is almost bound to get a good showing in California which has the most delegates, and is earlier in the process this time round.
And even Iowa is still eight months away. That is a long time in politics.
But for balance, one of my top top ones. Been laying Ref2 in 2019 consistently for months at prices from 3 to 5. Closed at 8. Smug city there. 0 -
And vice versa. Calling the original case vexatious would appear to breach that.Charles said:
I don’t know anything about the Raab caseNigelb said:
She was on R4 this morning talking about NDAs, and when asked about Raab’s use of one asserted that the claim against him in the employment tribunal case had been ‘vexatious’.nico67 said:
What did she say?Scott_P said:Has Maria Miller inadvertently committed some news?
Which rather blunted her otherwise sensible comments on the misuse of NDAs.
And raised the question of what basis she had for that assertion.
This was the agreement (which came to light when Raab sued the Mail on Sunday)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/dominic-raab-confidentiality-agreement-female-colleague
According to publicly available court documents, Raab’s confidentiality clause was agreed back in August 2007 — before he became an MP — when he was working as chief of staff to David Davis.
The documents said both Raab and Davis entered into a "compromise agreement" with a woman who also worked in Davis’s office.
The agreement brought to an end both the woman’s employment with Davis, and a claim she had made at an employment tribunal, according to a letter from Raab’s solicitor that is quoted in the court documents.
In 2011, Raab’s solicitor wrote to the woman warning that if she breached the terms of the agreement she would “be required to repay the sum [she was] paid in consideration for the confidentiality obligations”. She made clear she had no intention of breaching the agreement.
In 2012, Raab won an apology from the Mail on Sunday after it published “unfounded” allegations about his behaviour....
But a “compromise agreement” is utterly different from an NDA designed to gag and offence. It’s commonly used in redundancy situations - essentially an agreement to pay above the statutory minimum. In return the employee agrees not to badmouth the employer, keep the terms of the agreement confidential etc
Miller referred to the Raab case in the context of a wider discussion about NDAs, and the implication (like you and everyone else not involved, I don’t know the details either) was that an NDA was in place.
I’m well aware of what a compromise agreement is, and it is not unusual that it be accompanied by an NDA.0 -
Javid and Roaaaary launching this afternoon.
How can they grab the headlines ?0 -
No they are not - they are merely setting out their minimum terms...Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
I have complete contempt for most of the Tory party but care about the countries future not any particular party. The alternatives are not great. Most of the electorate are not so tribal they want parties to die, most will have voted Tory and Labour in the past, possibly most will vote both again at some point in the future. I expect I will vote for both in the future at some point.williamglenn said:
That doesn't answer the question. If you think the Tory party deserves to die because of Brexit, how can Rory persuade you that actually what the country needs is Brexit, and for the Tory party to survive?noneoftheabove said:
By listening and leading. Two things politicians in the UK have forgotten to even attempt. Much easier to listen to unicorn chasers and opinion polls.williamglenn said:
How can Rory convince people who are not partisan Tories that they should help get the Tories out of a hole by compromising with people who lied and cheated to get the country into this position? It doesn't deserve to succeed.Quincel said:(Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)
Someone who listens makes a big difference, it is an underestimated skill, particularly in a noisy place like social media and a 24 hr news cycle. Without listening and showing you listen you keep slicing and dicing your supporters until no consent exists for anything.
Someone who leads by fronting up when it is difficult, explaining why we cannot have unicorns, accepts they may drop temporarily in the polls when making a good but unpopular decision will gain respect and eventually support from the country.
We have had such bad leadership recently that we have forgotten what difference a good leader can make.0 -
I think Harper will move his support to Sajid Javid upon elimination, providing Javid has polled strongly enough.Richard_Nabavi said:
Yep.JackW said:
And accordingly will sink without trace in the first round.Richard_Nabavi said:Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
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Mr. Me, if the backstop causes to happen what it seeks to prevent then it's clearly not terribly clever.
A compromise would be a fairly long time period, say 10 years, with it, during which a permanent alternative is negotiated and agreed.
Locking us into a position we can't leave without EU approval isn't wise.0 -
Very strong wage growth today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48594011
Just maybe a slight tightening in our employment market given the Brexit uncertainty about residence rights for EU citizens? Yet more good news poured down the drain though. If only the ERG had not been so stupid. But that is their nature.0 -
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
I agree. “Green ink” letters have always existed but people didn’t feel the need to use them to make a political point in the pastnico67 said:
Sad but true .Scott_P said:
Brexit has normalized behaviour that previously would have been seen as unnaceptable. It’s not necessarily made new xenophobes but given those who were already there a stamp of approval.0 -
Why do people think that Steve Baker has endorsed Johnson?
As a Brexit purist, the purists' purist even, why is he not at this stage supporting Raab or McVey?0 -
Surely Rory has some bangers in his MI6 history??TGOHF said:Javid and Roaaaary launching this afternoon.
How can they grab the headlines ?0 -
Indeed. "Mere Winning" is not enough.Charles said:
@JackW is above mere “winning”HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
"The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile." - Plato.
Boris should read it to himself every day.
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Again if the price of an "insurance policy" is worse than what is being insured against it is unacceptable.TOPPING said:
"Not sacrificing NI" dear god get over yourself. It wasn't sacrificing anything it was an insurance policy to ensure that the situation in Ireland didn't become a casualty of Brexit. A far more noble intention than any "no surrender" rhetoric.Philip_Thompson said:The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.
If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
The backstop would have evaporated once the future trade agreement had been concluded.
The price of the insurance policy is sacrificing the rights of the population of NI to be able to elect their leaders and to ride roughshod over the GFA violating completely the principles of consent agreed within it. The population of NI would have zero MEPs, zero representation on how their laws are set and zero right to elect a government that would change them. They would be a colony.
As for once a future trade agreement had been concluded, one already has been. The terms of the transition period have already been concluded and the backstop is not a part of the transition it is what happens afterwards. So that's a lie.1 -
No. Under the terms of the transition we would not be allowed to alter or remove any product standards and regulations whatsoever.Freggles said:
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
There will be no blockade. At least, no military blockade. The risk is blockade by bureaucracy: licences, insurance cover, customs checks; that sort of thing.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
If we crash out with no deal, we will be a third country to the EU. Leaving is not the end of the process, it is the beginning. If any of the leadership candidates have made serious proposals as to our eventual, long term relationship with Europe, I'm afraid I've missed it. OK, we leave on 31/10. Then what? That's what reporters should be asking, not who did what at whose party two decades back.0 -
The insurance policy isn't ours - it's Ireland's and the EU's.Philip_Thompson said:
Again if the price of an "insurance policy" is worse than what is being insured against it is unacceptable.TOPPING said:
"Not sacrificing NI" dear god get over yourself. It wasn't sacrificing anything it was an insurance policy to ensure that the situation in Ireland didn't become a casualty of Brexit. A far more noble intention than any "no surrender" rhetoric.Philip_Thompson said:The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.
If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
The backstop would have evaporated once the future trade agreement had been concluded.
The price of the insurance policy is sacrificing the rights of the population of NI to be able to elect their leaders and to ride roughshod over the GFA violating completely the principles of consent agreed within it. The population of NI would have zero MEPs, zero representation on how their laws are set and zero right to elect a government that would change them. They would be a colony.
As for once a future trade agreement had been concluded, one already has been. The terms of the transition period have already been concluded and the backstop is not a part of the transition it is what happens afterwards. So that's a lie.
Oh and what trade agreement has been agreed. Trade is only to be discussed once we've left and are on the back foot...0 -
For the transition (yes) or under the backstop (no)?Philip_Thompson said:
No. Under the terms of the transition we would not be allowed to alter or remove any product standards and regulations whatsoever.Freggles said:
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.0 -
And in any event, Trump is yet to win in the UK. His surrogate has failed to be elected to Parliament a few times, I believe....JackW said:
Indeed. "Mere Winning" is not enough.Charles said:
@JackW is above mere “winning”HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
"The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile." - Plato.
Boris should read it to himself every day.
0 -
True, the odds haven't swung in your favour there and her early campaign has been OK but a bit disappointing. She could be strong in the debates, so hope springs eternal. I'm on Warren at 25/1 and hoping the debates aren't the end of her strength though, but we will see.kinabalu said:
True. Far too early to write her off. She might not be cutting through but neither has she blown up. It's more that I do not like that chunky 8/1 bet I'm sitting on. Right now, it's a rotten one.DecrepitJohnL said:It is too early to write off Kamala Harris. She is almost bound to get a good showing in California which has the most delegates, and is earlier in the process this time round.
And even Iowa is still eight months away. That is a long time in politics.
But for balance, one of my top top ones. Been laying Ref2 in 2019 consistently for months at prices from 3 to 5. Closed at 8. Smug city there.
My worst bet this year? Backing Labour at odds on to win Peterborough when it was first announced, and then panicking and hedging on TBP at 1/4.
Made up most of the losses on in-play betting overnight, but the fact is I took bad prices twice.0 -
Except Rory isn't listening. He started out supposing that 80% of people secretly back the deal, and after it making made abundantly clear to him that this is not true, his solution is to find a different way to blackmail the House of Commons into voting for the deal. There is no substance to the claim that he listens.noneoftheabove said:Someone who listens makes a big difference, it is an underestimated skill, particularly in a noisy place like social media and a 24 hr news cycle. Without listening and showing you listen you keep slicing and dicing your supporters until no consent exists for anything.
0 -
Gove back in to 17 on Betfair.
Rory now ahead of Saj and Raab.0 -
Rockall needs you.Philip_Thompson said:
Their position is unacceptable.Slackbladder said:
You keep saying that word, I do not thing it means what you think it means...Philip_Thompson said:
Compromise.Slackbladder said:The backstop doesn't exist in isolation though.
It is the fundamental thing needed to maintain no-border with ireland.
The no-dealers need to explain how they deal with the irish border, and beyond 'unicorns' or 'a hard border' they have failed.
Until they can show clearly how they solve this issue, they cannot be taken seriously.
The EU have laid our their position. What does the UK move on to secure a compromise?
The UK has already moved on what should be moved on. We have agreed a transition whereby: We pay them money, we follow their rules, we continue trading, we get no say. That is sufficient.
There is a ready-made trade agreement available to be implemented immediately, it is called the transition agreement. The backstop is not a part of the transition, it is only what happens afterwards if there is no agreement after the transition.
If the EU is prepared to risk no deal now in order to deal with what happens after then so am I.
It probably won't be that much different from the rest of the UK after a No Deal Brexit. ;-)0 -
That’s a disturbing (and plausible) story. Are there any other witnesses (Tim Renton in the comments wrote a blogpost but not clear if he was there or not)_Anazina_ said:
There is a very ugly story doing the rounds about Boris, a melon, and Natalie Rowe. You might want to google that before throwing your hat in with this guy.HYUFD said:
Boris is the only Tory who gets a majority with Yougov against Corbyn anyway, Hunt, Javid, Gove and Raab all see a Corbyn minority government so the Tories have nothing to lose by going for BorisJackW said:
Boris is like a drug for many Tories .... Er ....Jonathan said:
Trump won. The GOP hooked itself along for the ride. In office but not in power. What will be interesting will be to see what’s left when Trump is gone.JackW said:
Indeed. I'm not saying that Boris will not win the leadership. However the Conservative MP's and/or membership have history in picking a total electoral dud - Hague, May and of course IDS who has just endorsed Boris.HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
Boris as PM .... what could possibly go wrong ?!?!?!?!?!?
Do the Tories really want to go down the same road?
Put simply in the present situation enough Tories, MP's and membership, are willing to bet the house on Boris in the hope that name recognition and his Trump-lite personality will outweigh his huge baggage.
They'll go all in with this high stakes poker game knowing that if Boris blows it then the general election in a few months will be a massacre for the Conservatives as Hunt said at his launch yesterday.0 -
And if their minimum terms exceed our maximum then there is only one solution.eek said:
No they are not - they are merely setting out their minimum terms...Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.
The age of colonialism died 74 years ago. Having no representation in who sets your laws is not acceptable.
If the people of NI are to be subjugated to EU laws and regulations then they must have a say in how those laws and regulations are passed. Including vetos where other parties have vetos.1 -
Ssshhh .... we've managed almost half the day without the "F" word ....Nigelb said:
And in any event, Trump is yet to win in the UK. His surrogate has failed to be elected to Parliament a few times, I believe....JackW said:
Indeed. "Mere Winning" is not enough.Charles said:
@JackW is above mere “winning”HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
"The first and greatest victory is to conquer yourself; to be conquered by yourself is of all things most shameful and vile." - Plato.
Boris should read it to himself every day.0 -
The Army will sort that out.DecrepitJohnL said:
There will be no blockade. At least, no military blockade. The risk is blockade by bureaucracy: licences, insurance cover, customs checks; that sort of thing.Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
It's amazing how cooperative foreigners can be if you just speak loudly and hold a gun to their heads.0 -
Rory being a Scot has nothing to do with it?Roger said:
My Scottish relatives must have been to your dinner party. I was emailed about how good Rory was weeks ago. I suspect the more thoughtful Scots are less impressed by the tinsel and glitter of Boris than they are the quietly thoughtful Rory. As Slab voters I've suggested Boris would be the best hope for a Tory collapse.DavidL said:
I was out for a dinner party last night. As usual I was the only one who would self declare as a Tory in the room. Most of the others are the sort of people who supported SLAB before it went bizarre. The odd Lib Dem.JackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
They tend to like Ruth but what surprised me last night was how much they all liked Rory. It lends to support to the theory that he is the Tory non Tories like, much, much more so than Boris. A party looking to win elections and lengthen its reach, as opposed to ideological purity, would do well to reflect on that. But I don't suppose that they will.0 -
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
Osborne?Charles said:
That’s a disturbing (and plausible) story. Are there any other witnesses (Tim Renton in the comments wrote a blogpost but not clear if he was there or not)_Anazina_ said:
There is a very ugly story doing the rounds about Boris, a melon, and Natalie Rowe. You might want to google that before throwing your hat in with this guy.HYUFD said:
Boris is the only Tory who gets a majority with Yougov against Corbyn anyway, Hunt, Javid, Gove and Raab all see a Corbyn minority government so the Tories have nothing to lose by going for BorisJackW said:
Boris is like a drug for many Tories .... Er ....Jonathan said:
Trump won. The GOP hooked itself along for the ride. In office but not in power. What will be interesting will be to see what’s left when Trump is gone.JackW said:
Indeed. I'm not saying that Boris will not win the leadership. However the Conservative MP's and/or membership have history in picking a total electoral dud - Hague, May and of course IDS who has just endorsed Boris.HYUFD said:
Trump won of courseJackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
Boris as PM .... what could possibly go wrong ?!?!?!?!?!?
Do the Tories really want to go down the same road?
Put simply in the present situation enough Tories, MP's and membership, are willing to bet the house on Boris in the hope that name recognition and his Trump-lite personality will outweigh his huge baggage.
They'll go all in with this high stakes poker game knowing that if Boris blows it then the general election in a few months will be a massacre for the Conservatives as Hunt said at his launch yesterday.0 -
Depends on the long term trend. It’s very possible that 3 years ago was a blip.Barnesian said:
Checking the details I find:another_richard said:
The article quotes $85bn invested in the UK and $340bn invested in the rest of the EU.Streeter said:Meanwhile in the real world...
https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/1138317259817046016?s=21
Which means that 20% was invested in the UK.
So proportionally more was invested in the UK than the rest of the EU.
Its always best to check the details.
3 years ago investment in EU27 was $237b, UK was $121b, UK was 33% of total investment.
Now investment in EU27 is $340b, UK is $85b. UK is now 20% of total investment.
That is what the details show. You can't spin that to mean anything other than bad news for the UK.0 -
For the transition. There is no reason we couldn't kick the can of what happens afterwards to the future negotiations where it belongs and be in the transition already. If we reach a deal during transition then great the backstop is moot. If we don't, we either agree to extend transition until one is agreed, or go to no deal if we can't (which is no different to doing so now). But either way the EU's integrity is maintained and so is ours. The backstop is not needed either way.TheWhiteRabbit said:
For the transition (yes) or under the backstop (no)?Philip_Thompson said:
No. Under the terms of the transition we would not be allowed to alter or remove any product standards and regulations whatsoever.Freggles said:
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.
How is no deal now because of insistence on the backstop better than no deal after a transition period?1 -
Seriously, I don't believe you're real. Your comments are satirical, aren't they?Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
As much as Cameron and Blair being 'Scots' did, I'd imagine.Charles said:
Rory being a Scot has nothing to do with it?Roger said:
My Scottish relatives must have been to your dinner party. I was emailed about how good Rory was weeks ago. I suspect the more thoughtful Scots are less impressed by the tinsel and glitter of Boris than they are the quietly thoughtful Rory. As Slab voters I've suggested Boris would be the best hope for a Tory collapse.DavidL said:
I was out for a dinner party last night. As usual I was the only one who would self declare as a Tory in the room. Most of the others are the sort of people who supported SLAB before it went bizarre. The odd Lib Dem.JackW said:The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :
1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all ....
...............................................................................
Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :
2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent
Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :
6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor
Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates
10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.
They tend to like Ruth but what surprised me last night was how much they all liked Rory. It lends to support to the theory that he is the Tory non Tories like, much, much more so than Boris. A party looking to win elections and lengthen its reach, as opposed to ideological purity, would do well to reflect on that. But I don't suppose that they will.0 -
And you've given the game away with that comment. The backstop has nothing to do with "insurance", it is solely to do with putting us on the back foot.eek said:
The insurance policy isn't ours - it's Ireland's and the EU's.Philip_Thompson said:
Again if the price of an "insurance policy" is worse than what is being insured against it is unacceptable.TOPPING said:
"Not sacrificing NI" dear god get over yourself. It wasn't sacrificing anything it was an insurance policy to ensure that the situation in Ireland didn't become a casualty of Brexit. A far more noble intention than any "no surrender" rhetoric.Philip_Thompson said:The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.
If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
The backstop would have evaporated once the future trade agreement had been concluded.
The price of the insurance policy is sacrificing the rights of the population of NI to be able to elect their leaders and to ride roughshod over the GFA violating completely the principles of consent agreed within it. The population of NI would have zero MEPs, zero representation on how their laws are set and zero right to elect a government that would change them. They would be a colony.
As for once a future trade agreement had been concluded, one already has been. The terms of the transition period have already been concluded and the backstop is not a part of the transition it is what happens afterwards. So that's a lie.
Oh and what trade agreement has been agreed. Trade is only to be discussed once we've left and are on the back foot...
It is unacceptable colonialism and there are no circumstances it is acceptable.1 -
I'm real. You think the EU should be able to declare war on us and we sit back and do nothing?Chris said:
Seriously, I don't believe you're real. Your comments are satirical, aren't they?Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
@RCS1000 when looking at new commenting tools could we have one that allows the posters to put the terminally unable to understand on ignore so that we don't see their posts..Philip_Thompson said:
And you've given the game away with that comment. The backstop has nothing to do with "insurance", it is solely to do with putting us on the back foot.eek said:
The insurance policy isn't ours - it's Ireland's and the EU's.Philip_Thompson said:
Again if the price of an "insurance policy" is worse than what is being insured against it is unacceptable.TOPPING said:
"Not sacrificing NI" dear god get over yourself. It wasn't sacrificing anything it was an insurance policy to ensure that the situation in Ireland didn't become a casualty of Brexit. A far more noble intention than any "no surrender" rhetoric.Philip_Thompson said:The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.
If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
The backstop would have evaporated once the future trade agreement had been concluded.
The price of the insurance policy is sacrificing the rights of the population of NI to be able to elect their leaders and to ride roughshod over the GFA violating completely the principles of consent agreed within it. The population of NI would have zero MEPs, zero representation on how their laws are set and zero right to elect a government that would change them. They would be a colony.
As for once a future trade agreement had been concluded, one already has been. The terms of the transition period have already been concluded and the backstop is not a part of the transition it is what happens afterwards. So that's a lie.
Oh and what trade agreement has been agreed. Trade is only to be discussed once we've left and are on the back foot...
It is unacceptable colonialism and there are no circumstances it is acceptable.0 -
Mr. Glenn, can't see the problem for Raab. Only Conservative members get to vote in General Elections, right?0
-
Incredible. I mean supporting the rights of a parliamentary democracy is just so not a rock solid conservative value is it?williamglenn said:
Brexit just becomes a more terrible virus by the week.0 -
Something by Ken Loach I'll wager.OldKingCole said:
What was the film? Might have had an excuse!williamglenn said:0 -
What is the advantage, compared to an extension of Article 50?Philip_Thompson said:
For the transition. There is no reason we couldn't kick the can of what happens afterwards to the future negotiations where it belongs and be in the transition already. If we reach a deal during transition then great the backstop is moot. If we don't, we either agree to extend transition until one is agreed, or go to no deal if we can't (which is no different to doing so now). But either way the EU's integrity is maintained and so is ours. The backstop is not needed either way.TheWhiteRabbit said:
For the transition (yes) or under the backstop (no)?Philip_Thompson said:
No. Under the terms of the transition we would not be allowed to alter or remove any product standards and regulations whatsoever.Freggles said:
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.
How is no deal now because of insistence on the backstop better than no deal after a transition period?0 -
0
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Well, quite. But surely it is our government who has proposed the backstop and would prefer it over indefinite transition because the backstop ends FoM and payments into the EU?Philip_Thompson said:
For the transition. There is no reason we couldn't kick the can of what happens afterwards to the future negotiations where it belongs and be in the transition already. If we reach a deal during transition then great the backstop is moot. If we don't, we either agree to extend transition until one is agreed, or go to no deal if we can't (which is no different to doing so now). But either way the EU's integrity is maintained and so is ours. The backstop is not needed either way.TheWhiteRabbit said:
For the transition (yes) or under the backstop (no)?Philip_Thompson said:
No. Under the terms of the transition we would not be allowed to alter or remove any product standards and regulations whatsoever.Freggles said:
So you expect the EU to allow us to alter or remove literally any product standards and regulations, and then export those goods to their consumers across an open border with zero checks?Philip_Thompson said:
Except they are acting like wazzocks by insisting upon it though.OblitusSumMe said:The backstop is a mutual guarantee, from both sides, that neither will act like wazzocks over the difficult issue of the Irish border as a negotiating tactic for the future relationship.
There is no deal without it.
Leaving the EU without a deal qualifies as "acting like a wazzock" over the Irish border issue.
How is no deal now because of insistence on the backstop better than no deal after a transition period?
Also, if we exit without a deal now, it's us reneging on the Irish border. If it happens during FTA negotiations, the culpability is much less clear... What do you think?0 -
Is this actually happening or have I taken even more drugs than Michael Gove?Theuniondivvie said:0 -
You initially said 'virtually a declaration of war' which according to my Ladybird book of international protocol isn't yer actual declaration of war. Of course our armed forces are more prepared for a virtual rather than an actual response. A sail past by a non operational aircraft carrier will be just the thing.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm real. You think the EU should be able to declare war on us and we sit back and do nothing?Chris said:
Seriously, I don't believe you're real. Your comments are satirical, aren't they?Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
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What a ridiculous series of posts.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm real. You think the EU should be able to declare war on us and we sit back and do nothing?Chris said:
Seriously, I don't believe you're real. Your comments are satirical, aren't they?Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
Yes, makes sense, but I thought he might first vote his conscience and then switch later.Pulpstar said:He thinks Boris can win.
Perhaps he really does believe that Johnson will Brexit on 31 Oct with No Deal. If he does I suspect that he will be disappointed when crunch time comes.0 -
Was one of those questions at the end. His actual pitch was very sensible.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Is this actually happening or have I taken even more drugs than Michael Gove?Theuniondivvie said:0 -
I think 'bully' works better than 'declare war on' here.Philip_Thompson said:I'm real. You think the EU should be able to declare war on us and we sit back and do nothing?
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Nonsense, you just don't recognise sterling patriotism and common sense when you see it. You may not have seen the message implicit in the D Day celebrations last week, but let's hope for his own sake that Johnny Foreigner did.logical_song said:
What a ridiculous series of posts.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm real. You think the EU should be able to declare war on us and we sit back and do nothing?Chris said:
Seriously, I don't believe you're real. Your comments are satirical, aren't they?Philip_Thompson said:
Absolutely if they declare war on us seeking to blockade us illegally then we should absolutely call on our American allies to assist.MarqueeMark said:
Our military - and Trump's.....Philip_Thompson said:
I never said a blockade of the EU. What was being proposed was a blockade of the UK in violation of international laws. If that happens our military if necessary should break the blockade yes.Chris said:
Yes!Philip_Thompson said:
I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.eek said:
So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.
We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.0 -
Blue Momentum behind Gauke's Special AGM:
https://order-order.com/2019/06/11/gauke-pleads-members-defeat-deselection-attempt/#more-3490630 -
Back in the day PB had a blocking function. However the danger is that PB becomes more of an echo chamber and I'd rather reflect on or be challenged by differing viewpoints.eek said:@RCS1000 when looking at new commenting tools could we have one that allows the posters to put the terminally unable to understand on ignore so that we don't see their posts..
That said I was blocked by Rik Willis former Conservative PPC for Sutton and Cheam and Reading councillor after a testy exchange or two. Twas a blessing as subsequently the creep was found to be a peadophile and was convicted of possession of child pornography of the most serious nature.1 -
Can’t really blame politicians for trying to answer dumb questions from journalists?Pulpstar said:
Was one of those questions at the end. His actual pitch was very sensible.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Is this actually happening or have I taken even more drugs than Michael Gove?Theuniondivvie said:
Seems a robust patriotic answer from Harper in response?0 -
This argument is weak. A Brexit supporter may believe that in a conflict between the people as expressed in a referendum, guaranteed by the then government to be implemented, and parliament refusing to do so, bypassing parliament is the more democratic and legitimate of two sub-optimal choices.rottenborough said:
Incredible. I mean supporting the rights of a parliamentary democracy is just so not a rock solid conservative value is it?williamglenn said:
Brexit just becomes a more terrible virus by the week.1 -
Presumably Osborne saw the alleged Johnson melon incident if it happened (which I would imagine it did, based purely on my low opinion of Johnson and his public comments and behaviour). I imagine that the sort of people who are programmed to believe the word of a posh white man over a black woman might find the story more credible if Osborne backs it up. But perhaps loyalty to the party might prevent him from wielding the knife? (I know Osborne hated May but I cannot remember amid all the noise of the Tory soap opera what the Osborne-Johnson relationship is right now).TrèsDifficile said:
Osborne?0 -
There's some useful discussion of the practicalities ofrottenborough said:
Incredible. I mean supporting the rights of a parliamentary democracy is just so not a rock solid conservative value is it?williamglenn said:
Brexit just becomes a more terrible virus by the week.
(1) the Commons preventing No Deal and
(2) prorogation
here:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/new-prime-minister-intent-no-deal-brexit-cant-be-stopped-mps-0
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/blog/proroguing-parliament-would-be-undemocratic-and-probably-trigger-election
Though the first article suggests it would be very hard for the Commons to block No Deal anyway, so the argument about prorogation may be academic.0 -
Yep, that precisely.brendan16 said:
Can’t really blame politicians for trying to answer dumb questions from journalists?Pulpstar said:
Was one of those questions at the end. His actual pitch was very sensible.OnlyLivingBoy said:
Is this actually happening or have I taken even more drugs than Michael Gove?Theuniondivvie said:
Seems a robust patriotic answer from Harper in response?0 -
Mr. W, on Twitter I've been blocked, to my knowledge, by two people.
One was a civilised lefty fellow with whom I had polite (both sides) disagreements over video game thingummyjigs, and the blocking was quite a surprise. The other was a historical who was annoyed I pointed out Empress Irene might not be a great advert for International Women's Day, given she had her own son so brutally mutilated he died of his wounds (bit miffed he deleted the original tweet then reposted it, citing a 'grammatical error' for the reason...).
I do agree the echo chamber is to be avoided. If one only wants to hear one's own view, one might as well chat to a mirror.0 -
I think it could be close. He voted for the deal 3 times - quite prepared to have a very soft Brexit unlike say Grieve.rottenborough said:Blue Momentum behind Gauke's Special AGM:
https://order-order.com/2019/06/11/gauke-pleads-members-defeat-deselection-attempt/#more-3490630 -
Depends on how many entryists there are I suppose.Pulpstar said:
I think it could be close. He voted for the deal 3 times - quite prepared to have a very soft Brexit unlike say Grieve.rottenborough said:Blue Momentum behind Gauke's Special AGM:
https://order-order.com/2019/06/11/gauke-pleads-members-defeat-deselection-attempt/#more-3490630 -
Morning all from a rainy NY.
There was a forced landing of a helicopter yesterday on a building next to the one I’m due to be speaking in today. The incident messed up my evening plans so let’s hope nothing untoward happens today.
I’m assuming you’re all being deafened by the sound of contemptuous laughter from across the Channel as Europeans look on at the collection of dullards, chancers, fantasists and loons vying for the Tory party leadership.0 -
I've used your comment about Irene "she could be said to be lacking in maternal sentiment" a number of times. It still makes me chuckle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, on Twitter I've been blocked, to my knowledge, by two people.
One was a civilised lefty fellow with whom I had polite (both sides) disagreements over video game thingummyjigs, and the blocking was quite a surprise. The other was a historical who was annoyed I pointed out Empress Irene might not be a great advert for International Women's Day, given she had her own son so brutally mutilated he died of his wounds (bit miffed he deleted the original tweet then reposted it, citing a 'grammatical error' for the reason...).
I do agree the echo chamber is to be avoided. If one only wants to hear one's own view, one might as well chat to a mirror.0 -
The first comment there is actually of interest (rare for most sites unlike here). What do we elect MPs to do - simply to reflect the opinion of the most vocal constituents or to do what the MP thinks is best for the constituency?rottenborough said:Blue Momentum behind Gauke's Special AGM:
https://order-order.com/2019/06/11/gauke-pleads-members-defeat-deselection-attempt/#more-3490630 -
The "lefty" might have found your secret vice of theatrical street dancing and accordingly found this to be a Zionist trope of the most foul nature .....Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, on Twitter I've been blocked, to my knowledge, by two people.
One was a civilised lefty fellow with whom I had polite (both sides) disagreements over video game thingummyjigs, and the blocking was quite a surprise. The other was a historical who was annoyed I pointed out Empress Irene might not be a great advert for International Women's Day, given she had her own son so brutally mutilated he died of his wounds (bit miffed he deleted the original tweet then reposted it, citing a 'grammatical error' for the reason...).
I do agree the echo chamber is to be avoided. If one only wants to hear one's own view, one might as well chat to a mirror.0 -
Miss Cyclefree, hope you have a nice time, and no helicopters land on you.
Mr. F, thanks. It did strike me as odd to single her out for praise.0 -
Not on the Leadsom wing of the party then ....Sean_F said:
I've used your comment about Irene "she could be said to be lacking in maternal sentiment" a number of times. It still makes me chuckle.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. W, on Twitter I've been blocked, to my knowledge, by two people.
One was a civilised lefty fellow with whom I had polite (both sides) disagreements over video game thingummyjigs, and the blocking was quite a surprise. The other was a historical who was annoyed I pointed out Empress Irene might not be a great advert for International Women's Day, given she had her own son so brutally mutilated he died of his wounds (bit miffed he deleted the original tweet then reposted it, citing a 'grammatical error' for the reason...).
I do agree the echo chamber is to be avoided. If one only wants to hear one's own view, one might as well chat to a mirror.0 -
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48585041Cyclefree said:Morning all from a rainy NY.
There was a forced landing of a helicopter yesterday on a building next to the one I’m due to be speaking in today. The incident messed up my evening plans so let’s hope nothing untoward happens today.
I’m assuming you’re all being deafened by the sound of contemptuous laughter from across the Channel as Europeans look on at the collection of dullards, chancers, fantasists and loons vying for the Tory party leadership.0 -
How Italy's possible parallel currency may look, by one of the ideas driving forces. Mini-BOTs:
https://twitter.com/borghi_claudio/status/1137690923050160128/0
