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  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,713
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    edited June 2019
    7/10 launch by Leadsom. Good visuals, lacked a bit of punch. Didn't seem to be dozens there.
    Only 4 MPs in the room :open_mouth:
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Off-topic:

    A parent in my son's class went into class this morning and told the teacher that her son was going on holiday tomorrow, and would not be in school for a week.

    The teacher just sighed and told her to tell the school office.

    I can see the arguments both ways, but allowing a *limited* number of days off a year for term time holidays might be a massive vote-winner.

    Devils advocate hat - Given that us as tax payers are paying for that child's education it's only fair that we insist child attend the lessons - and as a parent I don't want teachers wasting time getting children back up to speed due to missing a week.

    Hopefully both parents will be individually fined for every child missing school...
    Devil's advocate hat: yet teachers think its fine to have 'training days', where parents have to remain at home to look after kids whilst the teachers do God-knows-what. (Thankfully, my shcool tends to place them at the start or end of a half/full term, rather than in the middle. Except this term...)

    In addition, a big issue is that the savings from going in term-time more than offsets any reasonable fines. This is an advantage rich parents have, whilst poor ones cannot take advantage.

    Finally, kids are off school sick all the time. My little 'un has had 3 or 4 days off (pre/reception) school in two years. Others have been off much more. Teachers need to cope with that.

    It's a difficult one, but it does seem to advantage rich parents, who can afford either to pay the fine, or the increased prices holiday companies pay during holidays.
    School Governors have the right to accept or reject proposed training days - I know I changed one around when I was Chair of Governors..

    So nice argument but that is also in (some) parents control...

    Btw some of our local secondary schools seem to have Black Friday as a training day..
    Thanks. Training days don't really concern us, as I'm currently a lazy sod a stay-at home dad. However for parents who might have kids in two, or three, schools, and where both parents work, they can be a real PITA.

    People talk about JAMs; this seems a good way of reducing a little pressure on the JAMS.
    The really entertaining one locally is that one of the secondary schools helps out at HCPT's Easter trip to Lourdes. That means the week after Easter will always be part of the School's Easter Holiday.

    It also means that all the schools in that Academic trust have different holidays to none Catholic schools
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,391
    Govey is a screaming hypocrite. Doing the marching powder whilst banning teachers from doing the marching powder.

    Happily being a screaming hypocrite is a positive attribute for Tory leaders. May berates the BBC for cutting free TV licenses as a result of her government's funding cuts. Cameron berates local council leader for cuts as a result of his government's funding cut etc etc.

    So who cares that he did coke? It's Brexit that will sink him.

    Go Boris!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    Boris Johnson launching tomorrow. Good idea tbh given plenty of B ranking candidates are going today.
    Gets the whole day to himself.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,061
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Off-topic:

    A parent in my son's class went into class this morning and told the teacher that her son was going on holiday tomorrow, and would not be in school for a week.

    The teacher just sighed and told her to tell the school office.

    I can see the arguments both ways, but allowing a *limited* number of days off a year for term time holidays might be a massive vote-winner.

    Devils advocate hat - Given that us as tax payers are paying for that child's education it's only fair that we insist child attend the lessons - and as a parent I don't want teachers wasting time getting children back up to speed due to missing a week.

    Hopefully both parents will be individually fined for every child missing school...
    Devil's advocate hat: yet teachers think its fine to have 'training days', where parents have to remain at home to look after kids whilst the teachers do God-knows-what. (Thankfully, my shcool tends to place them at the start or end of a half/full term, rather than in the middle. Except this term...)

    In addition, a big issue is that the savings from going in term-time more than offsets any reasonable fines. This is an advantage rich parents have, whilst poor ones cannot take advantage.

    Finally, kids are off school sick all the time. My little 'un has had 3 or 4 days off (pre/reception) school in two years. Others have been off much more. Teachers need to cope with that.

    It's a difficult one, but it does seem to advantage rich parents, who can afford either to pay the fine, or the increased prices holiday companies pay during holidays.
    School Governors have the right to accept or reject proposed training days - I know I changed one around when I was Chair of Governors..

    So nice argument but that is also in (some) parents control...

    Btw some of our local secondary schools seem to have Black Friday as a training day..
    Training Day?

    "It's not what you know. It's what you can prove!" :)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    7/10 launch by Leadsom. Good visuals, lacked a bit of punch. Didn't seem to be dozens there.
    Only 4 MPs in the room :open_mouth:

    From Team-Leadsom perspective it was a confident performance but for me it was dented by the small scale of the event. More like a small council marketing briefing with the local press in attendance. Underwhelming.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    All the candidates run that risk. Leavers may not accept or understand it but none of the candidates (including Stewart) have a realistic plan that saves the party. Future events may work out favouably but the parties survival as the major player in British politics is firmly in play.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790
    as for The Saj, he did a Raab (focusing on his immigrant family as a spur to where he has got to today) and none the worse for that.

    But my question is what could it have meant "you are not the sort of boy to do maths"? Was it an Asian/racist thing? Doesn't make sense although I could be being naive.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,541
    Pulpstar said:

    Boris Johnson launching tomorrow. Good idea tbh given plenty of B ranking candidates are going today.
    Gets the whole day to himself.

    Boris launching tomorrow now?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,763
    edited June 2019
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    .

    Devils advocate hat - Given that us as tax payers are paying for that child's education it's only fair that we insist child attend the lessons - and as a parent I don't want teachers wasting time getting children back up to speed due to missing a week.

    Hopefully both parents will be individually fined for every child missing school...
    Devil's advocate hat: yet teachers think its fine to have 'training days', where parents have to remain at home to look after kids whilst the teachers do God-knows-what. (Thankfully, my shcool tends to place them at the start or end of a half/full term, rather than in the middle. Except this term...)

    In addition, a big issue is that the savings from going in term-time more than offsets any reasonable fines. This is an advantage rich parents have, whilst poor ones cannot take advantage.

    Finally, kids are off school sick all the time. My little 'un has had 3 or 4 days off (pre/reception) school in two years. Others have been off much more. Teachers need to cope with that.

    It's a difficult one, but it does seem to advantage rich parents, who can afford either to pay the fine, or the increased prices holiday companies pay during holidays.
    School Governors have the right to accept or reject proposed training days - I know I changed one around when I was Chair of Governors..

    So nice argument but that is also in (some) parents control...

    Btw some of our local secondary schools seem to have Black Friday as a training day..
    Thanks. Training days don't really concern us, as I'm currently a lazy sod a stay-at home dad. However for parents who might have kids in two, or three, schools, and where both parents work, they can be a real PITA.

    People talk about JAMs; this seems a good way of reducing a little pressure on the JAMS.
    The really entertaining one locally is that one of the secondary schools helps out at HCPT's Easter trip to Lourdes. That means the week after Easter will always be part of the School's Easter Holiday.

    It also means that all the schools in that Academic trust have different holidays to none Catholic schools
    The kids who do that trip will learn a hundred times more than another week in school could ever teach them. Been there, did it four times. Life changing experience each time.

    Every school should do some similar community service project for the VI form students.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,015
    Chris said:
    Isn't that Mammon talking ? :smile:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Boris Johnson launching tomorrow. Good idea tbh given plenty of B ranking candidates are going today.
    Gets the whole day to himself.

    Boris launching tomorrow now?
    That was what I heard, obviously wants to build up a sense of anticipation !
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,040
    So my Tracey Crouch bet is struggling a little now i guess...
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,520

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    I could see myself tactically voting for a Rory-led Tory party in my ultra marginal constituency. He's preferable to a Corbyn-led LAB
    As could I.

    In truth, none of the candidates (even St Rory) are being honest about the constraints on Brexit and as a result I'm not sure it matters who is elected Tory leader and even PM - it doesn't change any of the Brexit fundamentals. Sam Gyimah was the one exception, but clearly cocaine is less a big deal than querying the cult of Brexit.

    Whoever is elected finds themselves with all the impossible constraints that May faced, less time and naff all goodwill in the country. I reckon parliament forces extension, EU don't dare to force the no-deal, the impasse continues. The PM can huff and puff all they like, but what can they actually do about it? They won't have the numbers to do anything except call a GE and clear that might be 9% redux.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    This is Gove's campaign song:-

    "Your crystal ball is where you chase the dragon
    She said now bring me home his head inside a sack
    But now you find your crystal balls are draggin'
    Uh uh uh, got to get that monkey off your back"
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,391
    Scott_P said:

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
    As do all of them.

    Boris wins. We no deal. It's a disaster. Result: Canada 1993
    Gove wins. We no leave. It's a disaster. Resukt: Canada 1993

    Why does Gove or *unt or Javid mean no leave? Because they won't let us no deal. And there is no deal that will pass. They will beg the EU to kick the cam down the road and Farage wins the election
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,888
    Chris said:
    When Loathsome is running as the compassionate candidate you realise how deep in trouble the Tories are
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,015

    eek said:

    Off-topic:

    A parent in my son's class went into class this morning and told the teacher that her son was going on holiday tomorrow, and would not be in school for a week.

    The teacher just sighed and told her to tell the school office.

    I can see the arguments both ways, but allowing a *limited* number of days off a year for term time holidays might be a massive vote-winner.

    Devils advocate hat - Given that us as tax payers are paying for that child's education it's only fair that we insist child attend the lessons - and as a parent I don't want teachers wasting time getting children back up to speed due to missing a week.

    Hopefully both parents will be individually fined for every child missing school...
    Devil's advocate hat: yet teachers think its fine to have 'training days', where parents have to remain at home to look after kids whilst the teachers do God-knows-what. (Thankfully, my school tends to place them at the start or end of a half/full term, rather than in the middle. Except this term...)....
    Actually it was a Conservative government which thought that, when it introduced them (in addition to the 190 pupil days per year):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inset_day

    And teachers who also have children in school face exactly the same problem.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,541
    Pulpstar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Boris Johnson launching tomorrow. Good idea tbh given plenty of B ranking candidates are going today.
    Gets the whole day to himself.

    Boris launching tomorrow now?
    That was what I heard, obviously wants to build up a sense of anticipation !
    Everyone might just get fed up waiting and go home... ;)
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Pulpstar said:

    Boris Johnson launching tomorrow. Good idea tbh given plenty of B ranking candidates are going today.
    Gets the whole day to himself.

    Gets another day without facing questions you mean, let alone answering them. As per my earlier post, Boris is riding two horses, convincing both Remainers and Leavers he is really on their side. To do that, he has no doubt boned up on Jeremy Corbyn's constructive ambiguity.

    Launch Wednesday. First ballot Thursday morning. Not much time for forensic questions.

    Boris will be safer with dickhead reporters asking about coke than Brexit.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    This is Gove's campaign song:-

    "Your crystal ball is where you chase the dragon
    She said now bring me home his head inside a sack
    But now you find your crystal balls are draggin'
    Uh uh uh, got to get that monkey off your back"

    Hi Sean. What's your appreciation of the Tory contest presently?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789

    As per my earlier post, Boris is riding two horses, convincing both Remainers and Leavers he is really on their side.

    It worked for May, until she couldn't avoid making choices.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    24 people at harper's launch I count. Expect most are journalists.
    I think he's worth a tenner on the last place market at odds against as he's essentially anonymous too.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    So my Tracey Crouch bet is struggling a little now i guess...

    My 200/1 Philip Hammond in a coronation to oust May is looking a bit dicey as well.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 4,578
    tpfkar said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    I could see myself tactically voting for a Rory-led Tory party in my ultra marginal constituency. He's preferable to a Corbyn-led LAB
    As could I.

    In truth, none of the candidates (even St Rory) are being honest about the constraints on Brexit and as a result I'm not sure it matters who is elected Tory leader and even PM - it doesn't change any of the Brexit fundamentals. Sam Gyimah was the one exception, but clearly cocaine is less a big deal than querying the cult of Brexit.

    Whoever is elected finds themselves with all the impossible constraints that May faced, less time and naff all goodwill in the country. I reckon parliament forces extension, EU don't dare to force the no-deal, the impasse continues. The PM can huff and puff all they like, but what can they actually do about it? They won't have the numbers to do anything except call a GE and clear that might be 9% redux.

    This is very right. There are choices when there is no possible route to your destination: change the destination or be led by a Moses/Mandela/Churchill/Thatcher charisma laden leader. One of those will end up being the case. personally I think now we will change the destination and remain, but as to how I haven't a clue. Maybe Matthew Parris is right and Boris will
    be the person to keep us in the EU.
  • As per my earlier post, Boris is riding two horses, convincing both Remainers and Leavers he is really on their side.

    It worked for May, until she couldn't avoid making choices.
    Hasn't worked out too well for Corbyn.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 39,061
    10 candidates, twice the number of any recent Tory Leader contest.

    Surely a case of quantity v. quality?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited June 2019
    Mark Harper now up ....

    Edit .... and very shortly down too ....
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,830
    edited June 2019

    All the candidates run that risk. Leavers may not accept or understand it but none of the candidates (including Stewart) have a realistic plan that saves the party. Future events may work out favouably but the parties survival as the major player in British politics is firmly in play.

    Agreed, many Tories at all levels of the party don't seem to appreciate how big the risks are for the party (and country, indeed). Some say that the party faces ruin *unless it picks a strong Leaver/No-Dealer/Etc*, but the key is that it risks ruin no matter who it picks. The party now has two constituencies which are increasingly difficult to keep together on the biggest issue of the day which forms the basis of people's political identities.

    There are Committed Leavers who still believe Brexit can be achieved without trade-offs if we push hard enough, and Soft Leavers/Remainers who think Brexit needs to be balanced with the needs of business and other trade-offs (it isn't that the first group don't care about business, they just don't think there is any trade-off between achieving both/all outcomes).

    Unless the party pulls off a miracle and achieves a unicorn Brexit one of the two groups will be let down. If the party commits to just one group, by either pivoting to an EEA or other Soft Brexit or going full No Deal, they will bleed support to either Lab/Lib Dems on the centre or TBP on the right. But if they try and commit to one group but let them down anyway (for example, if the reality of No Deal ends up disappointing Committed Leavers) then they could lose both groups and the party could just collapse, at least for one electoral cycle.

    Everything has an end, including 100+ year old political parties. I'm not saying it will happen in the next few years, but it's entirely possible. And even if the party doesn't die, becoming the 3rd/4th party of British politics could happen. Like the Liberals a century ago.

    The party has promised two groups they can deliver things which most independent observers say are mutually exclusive. They'd better hope they are wrong.

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Leadsom at 8/1 is the worst bet in this market.

    Unless you are laying.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 17,888
    JackW said:

    Mark Harper now up ....

    Edit .... and very shortly down too ....

    Gets 100 seconds on Beeb (about 95 too many)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 46,148
    Harper on now. Incredible. These people are all mad. Still going on about taking sticks and carrots to the EU and reopening negotiations.

    There is no more negotiation by Oct. Zilch. None.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Mark Harper now up ....

    Edit .... and very shortly down too ....

    Gets 100 seconds on Beeb (about 95 too many)
    And Sky News cut away too ....
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    edited June 2019

    My 200/1 Philip Hammond in a coronation to oust May is looking a bit dicey as well.

    Fessing up to bad bets is admirable and good for the soul. Never trust a punter who only talks of their winners.

    And in that spirit, I would like to disclose one, albeit not pertaining to Tory matters. I lumped on Kamala Harris at 8/1 for next POTUS. She is double that price now, and rightly so - simply not cutting through.

    I wish I had done Elizabeth Warren.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    24 people at harper's launch I count. Expect most are journalists.
    I think he's worth a tenner on the last place market at odds against as he's essentially anonymous too.

    I follow politics but seriously ... who is he?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,037

    Harper on now. Incredible. These people are all mad. Still going on about taking sticks and carrots to the EU and reopening negotiations.

    There is no more negotiation by Oct. Zilch. None.

    He's quite explicitly said that you can't leave by October with a renegotiated deal. He's actually talking a lot of sense, though I doubt it will do him any good.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,830

    Harper on now. Incredible. These people are all mad. Still going on about taking sticks and carrots to the EU and reopening negotiations.

    There is no more negotiation by Oct. Zilch. None.

    He's quite explicitly said that you can't leave by October with a renegotiated deal. He's actually talking a lot of sense, though I doubt it will do him any good.
    Agree, I'm surprised but impressed by how broadly plausible his plan is.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 69,284
    Sky News doesn't finish covering Harper's launch.

    3/10 What he was saying was sensible but the visuals seem to have been provided by Change UK. Still anonymous. Rules out 31st October but prepared to go no deal in time.
    The position doesn't particularly appeal to hard leavers or remainers, so I have to conclude he is being absolubtely honest about it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,408
    Pulpstar said:

    That was what I heard, obviously wants to build up a sense of anticipation !

    And it's working. I, for one, can hardly wait. Will be building my day around it tomorrow.

    Hopefully he will not disappoint by failing to disappoint.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    148grss said:

    Gaz said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JackW said:

    The JackW /Jacobite Conservative Leadership Rankings :

    1. - Rory Stewart - The surname says it all .... :smiley:

    ...............................................................................

    Group Two - In Order Of Least Worst For The Nation :

    2. Jeremy Hunt - Dull, worthy and vaguely competent
    3. Michael Gove - A complete sh*t but vaguely competent
    4. Matt Hancock - Completely vague and vaguely competent
    5. Sajid Javid - Not entirely vague and not entirely incompetent

    Group Three - Ranking In Order Of Rank Incredulity Of Their Rankness :

    6. Mark Harper - The cab rank awaits.
    7. Andrea Leadsom - Ranks as a mother but no rebirth of the nation
    8. Dominic Rabb - Requires proroguing to Dover for re-education and re-ranking
    9. Ester McVey - A rank disaster but with added delusions as a Thatcher successor

    Group Four - Special Grouping For MIA Candidates

    10. Boris Johnson - The Donald Trump went To Eton candidate.

    Trump won of course
    And that has worked out well for everyone.
    The US economy is still growing
    If it were only the headline GDP.numbers that mattered then Trump wouldn't have been elected in the first place.
    On pretty much every measure Americans are batter off now than before Trump got elected (not necessarily because of anything he did). If he makes his campaign the same that Reagan he could win again.. (of course Reagan was using this as a criticism of the previous administration. )
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8EvFQLhqWPQ
    Unless you're a woman who cares about reproductive health, an LGBT person who cares about equal protection, a latinx person who wants to feel welcome in their own country, a working person who wants to keep their healthcare, or so on and so on. The only Americans doing better are the already wealthy. The wealth is not trickling down, as the Russian prostitute said to the future POTUS.
    And it’s the identity politics approach which will kill the Dems if they pursue it.

    Judging people by the colour of their skin, their creed their gender or sexuality not by the content of their character in other words. Make people a victim not an American.

    Latino and Hispanic voters for example are predominantly Catholic and on average less supportive of abortion and reproductive rights than most Americans - opposition to LGBT rights isn’t also the exclusive position of white evangelical voters. You can end up very conflicted if you try to square those circles!

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 18,541
    Mark Harper is like the Owen Who of this contest... :D
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790
    Quincel said:

    All the candidates run that risk. Leavers may not accept or understand it but none of the candidates (including Stewart) have a realistic plan that saves the party. Future events may work out favouably but the parties survival as the major player in British politics is firmly in play.

    Agreed, many Tories at all levels of the party don't seem to appreciate how big the risks are for the party (and country, indeed). Some say that the party faces ruin *unless it picks a strong Leaver/No-Dealer/Etc*, but the key is that it risks ruin no matter who it picks. The party now has two constituencies which are increasingly difficult to keep together on the biggest issue of the day which forms the basis of people's political identities.

    There are Committed Leavers who still believe Brexit can be achieved without trade-offs if we push hard enough, and Soft Leavers/Remainers who think Brexit needs to be balanced with the needs of business and other trade-offs (it isn't that the first group don't care about business, they just don't think there is any trade-off between achieving both/all outcomes).

    Unless the party pulls off a miracle and achieves a unicorn Brexit one of the two groups will be let down. If the party commits to just one group, by either pivoting to an EEA or other Soft Brexit or going full No Deal, they will bleed support to either Lab/Lib Dems on the centre or TBP on the right. But if they try and commit to one group but let them down anyway (for example, if the reality of No Deal ends up disappointing Committed Leavers) then they could lose both groups and the party could just collapse, at least for one electoral cycle.

    Everything has an end, including 100+ year old political parties. I'm not saying it will happen in the next few years, but it's entirely possible. And even if the party doesn't die, becoming the 3rd/4th party of British politics could happen. Like the Liberals a century ago.

    The party has promised two groups they can deliver things which most independent observers say are mutually exclusive. They'd better hope they are wrong.

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)
    nice post
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 8,917

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    The biggest problem for all politicians is that no one with a brain believes in Brexit anymore. That is why you are left with Mark Francois and, Jeremy Corbyn as true believers. The rest are just playing to the lowest common denominator in the gallery! :smiley:
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    Scott_P said:

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
    As do all of them.

    Boris wins. We no deal. It's a disaster. Result: Canada 1993
    Gove wins. We no leave. It's a disaster. Resukt: Canada 1993

    Why does Gove or *unt or Javid mean no leave? Because they won't let us no deal. And there is no deal that will pass. They will beg the EU to kick the cam down the road and Farage wins the election
    That's the thing - nothing that any candidate can do will solve the issues they have.

    They need to keep the DUP on side.
    They need to keep all Tory MPs on side.
    They need to win the inevitable VONC that will occur.
    They need to get something through Parliament (no-one can).
    They can't go for an election - they will lose votes to Nigel or the Lib Dems depending on people's views.
    So exactly how do you as leader resolve any of the problems above..
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    So unacceptable that Boris, Rabb, Mogg and some ERG voted for May's deal last time.

    The failure is three fold.

    1. May lost her majority
    2. The ERG and DUP wanted a unicorn BREXIT
    3. The Labour party reneged on their manifesto.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789
    Quincel said:

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)

    How can Rory convince people who are not partisan Tories that they should help get the Tories out of a hole by compromising with people who lied and cheated to get the country into this position? It doesn't deserve to succeed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,391
    eek said:

    Scott_P said:

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
    As do all of them.

    Boris wins. We no deal. It's a disaster. Result: Canada 1993
    Gove wins. We no leave. It's a disaster. Resukt: Canada 1993

    Why does Gove or *unt or Javid mean no leave? Because they won't let us no deal. And there is no deal that will pass. They will beg the EU to kick the cam down the road and Farage wins the election
    That's the thing - nothing that any candidate can do will solve the issues they have.

    They need to keep the DUP on side.
    They need to keep all Tory MPs on side.
    They need to win the inevitable VONC that will occur.
    They need to get something through Parliament (no-one can).
    They can't go for an election - they will lose votes to Nigel or the Lib Dems depending on people's views.
    So exactly how do you as leader resolve any of the problems above..
    Take off and nuke the entire site from orbit
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Quincel said:

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)

    I agree with much of the rest of your post but not this. Rory is not proposing a compromise, he is proposing a very soft Brexit or no Brexit at all. No different to May. He's also continuing with the utterly unacceptable backstop.

    You said there were two camps. Rory has chosen to be unflinching standard bearer for one of them. In that way he is no different to McVey who is the unflinching standard bearer for the other. They are both the opposite of compromise, they are both seeking to win on their own terms. Which I respect it is principled rather than compromise. I just don't agree.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    Sorry Topping - but May was awful - kept her awful deal hidden from the cabinet, fibbed about what was in it and never asked her colleagues what they could support.

    The CEO has to carry the blame for the share price - not the factory workers.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262
    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    So unacceptable that Boris, Rabb, Mogg and some ERG voted for May's deal last time.

    The failure is three fold.

    1. May lost her majority
    2. The ERG and DUP wanted a unicorn BREXIT
    3. The Labour party reneged on their manifesto.
    Labour opposed as they are supposed to do as the opposition.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    Sorry Topping - but May was awful - kept her awful deal hidden from the cabinet, fibbed about what was in it and never asked her colleagues what they could support.

    The CEO has to carry the blame for the share price - not the factory workers.
    You're obviously not a modern Tory. To them the reverse is the case.
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    eek said:

    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    So unacceptable that Boris, Rabb, Mogg and some ERG voted for May's deal last time.

    The failure is three fold.

    1. May lost her majority
    2. The ERG and DUP wanted a unicorn BREXIT
    3. The Labour party reneged on their manifesto.
    Labour opposed as they are supposed to do as the opposition.
    Opposing everything even if it is the national interest is not the duty of the opposition
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Are you a DUP member?
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    If the ERG were smart they would vote tactically in the later rounds.

    A big "if".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789

    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.

    How long after no deal do you expect surrender?
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 12,500

    Quincel said:

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)

    How can Rory convince people who are not partisan Tories that they should help get the Tories out of a hole by compromising with people who lied and cheated to get the country into this position? It doesn't deserve to succeed.
    By listening and leading. Two things politicians in the UK have forgotten to even attempt. Much easier to listen to unicorn chasers and opinion polls.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    Harper's bizzare
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.

    If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Are you a DUP member?
    No. I used to be a Tory I am currently of no party.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
    We either find an agreeable compromise or we don't agree.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    eek said:

    JackW said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    So unacceptable that Boris, Rabb, Mogg and some ERG voted for May's deal last time.

    The failure is three fold.

    1. May lost her majority
    2. The ERG and DUP wanted a unicorn BREXIT
    3. The Labour party reneged on their manifesto.
    Labour opposed as they are supposed to do as the opposition.
    They are supposed to be Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.

    The country comes first. Not opposition for its own sake or placing insurmountable and clearly party political obstacles to a viable BREXIT.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    Sorry Topping - but May was awful - kept her awful deal hidden from the cabinet, fibbed about what was in it and never asked her colleagues what they could support.

    The CEO has to carry the blame for the share price - not the factory workers.
    You're obviously not a modern Tory. To them the reverse is the case.
    They no doubt would have blamed the Suez crisis on British squaddies based in Cyprus rather than Eden.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968
    edited June 2019
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
    Thcream and thcream until we make ourselves sick?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    kinabalu said:

    My 200/1 Philip Hammond in a coronation to oust May is looking a bit dicey as well.

    Fessing up to bad bets is admirable and good for the soul. Never trust a punter who only talks of their winners.

    And in that spirit, I would like to disclose one, albeit not pertaining to Tory matters. I lumped on Kamala Harris at 8/1 for next POTUS. She is double that price now, and rightly so - simply not cutting through.

    I wish I had done Elizabeth Warren.
    It is too early to write off Kamala Harris. She is almost bound to get a good showing in California which has the most delegates, and is earlier in the process this time round.

    And even Iowa is still eight months away. That is a long time in politics.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    Scott_P said:

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
    As do all of them.

    Boris wins. We no deal. It's a disaster. Result: Canada 1993
    Gove wins. We no leave. It's a disaster. Resukt: Canada 1993

    Why does Gove or *unt or Javid mean no leave? Because they won't let us no deal. And there is no deal that will pass. They will beg the EU to kick the cam down the road and Farage wins the election
    That's the thing - nothing that any candidate can do will solve the issues they have.

    They need to keep the DUP on side.
    They need to keep all Tory MPs on side.
    They need to win the inevitable VONC that will occur.
    They need to get something through Parliament (no-one can).
    They can't go for an election - they will lose votes to Nigel or the Lib Dems depending on people's views.
    So exactly how do you as leader resolve any of the problems above..
    Take a stand and call an election. Win and you have a mandate to get out of this mess. Lose and it's not your problem anymore and the public have chosen something else.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,236
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    This is Gove's campaign song:-

    "Your crystal ball is where you chase the dragon
    She said now bring me home his head inside a sack
    But now you find your crystal balls are draggin'
    Uh uh uh, got to get that monkey off your back"

    Hi Sean. What's your appreciation of the Tory contest presently?
    Boris Johnson is an amoral sociopathic snake, but probably the party's best bet right now.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,262

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
    We either find an agreeable compromise or we don't agree.
    So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789

    Quincel said:

    (Incidentally, this is a core of why I like Rory. His entire campaign is about promising less and trying to make the Tories accept that a compromise is coming and no-one should expect to get what they want from Brexit. Personally I think that's the path out of this bind, difficult though the climbdown will doubtless be.)

    How can Rory convince people who are not partisan Tories that they should help get the Tories out of a hole by compromising with people who lied and cheated to get the country into this position? It doesn't deserve to succeed.
    By listening and leading. Two things politicians in the UK have forgotten to even attempt. Much easier to listen to unicorn chasers and opinion polls.
    That doesn't answer the question. If you think the Tory party deserves to die because of Brexit, how can Rory persuade you that actually what the country needs is Brexit, and for the Tory party to survive?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,968

    eek said:

    Scott_P said:

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.

    As does BoZo
    As do all of them.

    Boris wins. We no deal. It's a disaster. Result: Canada 1993
    Gove wins. We no leave. It's a disaster. Resukt: Canada 1993

    Why does Gove or *unt or Javid mean no leave? Because they won't let us no deal. And there is no deal that will pass. They will beg the EU to kick the cam down the road and Farage wins the election
    That's the thing - nothing that any candidate can do will solve the issues they have.

    They need to keep the DUP on side.
    They need to keep all Tory MPs on side.
    They need to win the inevitable VONC that will occur.
    They need to get something through Parliament (no-one can).
    They can't go for an election - they will lose votes to Nigel or the Lib Dems depending on people's views.
    So exactly how do you as leader resolve any of the problems above..
    Take a stand and call an election. Win and you have a mandate to get out of this mess. Lose and it's not your problem anymore and the public have chosen something else.
    Heath tried that and look where that got him.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour supporters should want Hunt to win - Maybot 2.0.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    Unemployment is at historically low records and wages are growing faster than inflation.

    What would be the Tory lead if it wasn't for Brexit.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Someone else's fault. Repeat until catatonia sets in or Mark Francois personally fights the EU on the beaches.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Betfair have first round voting markets up - who will get lost and least no of votes.

  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,713
    Brilliant idea of Andrea Leadsom's for a Volunteer Home Guard to defend Rockall against the EU.

    No doubt some here will be interested in participating.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790
    TGOHF said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    Sorry Topping - but May was awful - kept her awful deal hidden from the cabinet, fibbed about what was in it and never asked her colleagues what they could support.

    The CEO has to carry the blame for the share price - not the factory workers.
    May was undoubtedly, categorically awful. She positively defined awfulosity. But she came back with the only possible deal and it was a good one. But yes, no hiding from her uselessness otherwise.

    The thing that gets me though is that the likes of Unicorn Brexiters have arbitrarily and illogically decided what is and isn't Brexit and then run the whole thing through so that we are in the mess we currently are in.

    May's deal, howsoever arrived at, would have given us a fighting chance of leaving in a sensible way.

    Fucking wazzocks.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    This is Gove's campaign song:-

    "Your crystal ball is where you chase the dragon
    She said now bring me home his head inside a sack
    But now you find your crystal balls are draggin'
    Uh uh uh, got to get that monkey off your back"

    Hi Sean. What's your appreciation of the Tory contest presently?
    Boris Johnson is an amoral sociopathic snake, but probably the party's best bet right now.
    :smiley::smiley::smiley:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eek said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
    We either find an agreeable compromise or we don't agree.
    So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
    I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    10 candidates, twice the number of any recent Tory Leader contest.

    Surely a case of quantity v. quality?

    Quantity anyway.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 7,713

    eek said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    Because the EU, protecting their loyal member state, Ireland, insisted on it. The ERG may be prepared to throw people under buses, but the EC seems to be made of better stuff.
    Remember, too, Ireland has a long-standing gripe agains the English (mean that) Government.
    Indeed they insisted on it. Which means we need to decide between surrender or no deal. I say no surrender.
    Which means No Deal....

    What happens when we encounter a problem and need the EU to agree to something?
    We either find an agreeable compromise or we don't agree.
    So you are happy for no planes to fly, no food to be imported, no exports allowed......
    I think that's bullshit and virtually a declaration of war. If the EU wants to treat us as an enemy then we need to respond in kind.
    Yes!

    A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.

    We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 32,790

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    nico67 said:

    Rory Stewart also goes down well with some Labour friends .

    I wouldn’t ever vote Tory and they wouldn’t but he does get some grudging respect and is seen as sane and quite sensible . He also has a very interesting life story and many have been following him on social media .

    The thing I like about him is he’s actually putting himself out there and taking a big risk with his campaign . He may well be another who gets removed by the no deal death cult .

    And the first paragraph is why Stewart could be a disaster as Leader.

    Yes he appeals to non Tories who wouldn't vote Tory. But then if they don't vote Tory still it achieves nothing.

    In normal times winning the swing voters would be enough to win the election. But these aren't normal times. Rory is worse than May on Brexit and would fail to deliver, I'm not even sure he wants to deliver. That will drive away more Tories than he attracts.

    Stewart runs the risk of completely schisming the party and seeing a Canada 1993 style wipeout.
    It wasn't May who failed to deliver Brexit you wazzock, it was the ERG and your mate Mark Francois.
    No it was May. She was never a Brexiteer in the first place and then had almost every Brexiteer saying clear as day that the backstop was utterly unacceptable but she continued with it anyway.
    As I said, it was the ERG and their equally tiny-minded followers who decided they didn't like the backstop and hence decided that leaving the EU in March this year "was not Brexit".

    Wazzocks the lot of you.
    The backstop is unacceptable on principle. I've been unwaveringly consistent on that unlike wazzocks like Boris who said it was unacceptable until he voted for it.

    If I was trying to get a new home and an estate agent said they had a home I could get but the price was me sacrificing one of my children then I would obviously say no. Some things are more important. I am not prepared to sacrifice NI to the backstop under ANY circumstances.
    "Not sacrificing NI" dear god get over yourself. It wasn't sacrificing anything it was an insurance policy to ensure that the situation in Ireland didn't become a casualty of Brexit. A far more noble intention than any "no surrender" rhetoric.

    The backstop would have evaporated once the future trade agreement had been concluded.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 40,904

    kinabalu said:

    My 200/1 Philip Hammond in a coronation to oust May is looking a bit dicey as well.

    Fessing up to bad bets is admirable and good for the soul. Never trust a punter who only talks of their winners.

    And in that spirit, I would like to disclose one, albeit not pertaining to Tory matters. I lumped on Kamala Harris at 8/1 for next POTUS. She is double that price now, and rightly so - simply not cutting through.

    I wish I had done Elizabeth Warren.
    It is too early to write off Kamala Harris. She is almost bound to get a good showing in California which has the most delegates, and is earlier in the process this time round.

    And even Iowa is still eight months away. That is a long time in politics.
    That's true but she has been disappointing so far. She has done well in lawyer mode at committee but there is far more to being a successful candidate than that. She needs some Obama style speeches setting out her vision for America along with some real policy edges that gets her attention and on talk shows etc. I've been disappointed so far but there is time if she can find things to say.

    A bit like the Saj here to be honest although the video this morning is a better effort. His first effort was truly chronic.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Chris said:

    Brilliant idea of Andrea Leadsom's for a Volunteer Home Guard to defend Rockall against the EU.

    No doubt some here will be interested in participating.

    You Stupid Boy !! .... :wink:
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 29,467
    Mark Harper seems to have some very sensible ideas.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 38,789
    Chris said:

    Yes!

    A military/naval blockade of the EU, with the ultimate threat of nuclear force.

    We'll have Johnny Foreigner on his knees within the hour.

    You'd need internment for Remainers to deal with the enemy within.
This discussion has been closed.