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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is it Bye-bye to by-elections?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is it Bye-bye to by-elections?

This is a two-part series bringing to your attention the decline of the humble Westminster by-election over the last 100 years. In Part 1, I will discuss how the reasons for triggering by-elections have changed since 1918. In Part 2, I will discuss in more detail the phenomenon (or lack) of MPs resigning and re-contesting their seats over principle or when they change party allegiance.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929
    First. Like the mighty Everton.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,609
    Nice stats. I hope for innocent reasons we get a pick up in by elections. They break up the day to day monotony.
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited April 2019
    Interesting article Sunil.

    We need fewer career politicians and more people with experience of life - as the latter will have done proper jobs and be older they might be more likely to die in office thus creating more by election opportunities?

    Or we pass a new law saying if you leave your party you must fight a by election?
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    brendan16 said:

    Interesting article Sunil.

    We need fewer career politicians and more people with experience of life - as the latter will have done proper jobs and be older they might be more likely to die in office thus creating more by election opportunities?

    Or we pass a new law saying if you leave your party you must fight a by election?

    Aren't the current crop of MPs some of the oldest ever, or is that just the party leaders? I think we've simply had improvements in public health.
  • Options
    ArtistArtist Posts: 1,882
    Hopefully enough people in Peterborough are bothering to sign the recall petition. Just over one week left.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I think part of the reason will be that parties actively seek to avoid by-elections much more now than in the past. So an MP will normally hang on until the general election and then receive a Peerage later, or whatever else it might be.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955
    Cheers for the header, Sunil!

    Looks like we've hit a bit of a floor. The grim reaper is ever vigilant.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    First. Like the mighty Everton.

    in the race for seventh?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,094
    edited April 2019
    Interesting thread Sunil, but I think you will find universal suffrage was 1928 not 1918. 1918 was universal male suffrage (unless you were a conscientious objector).

    Edit - also of course there were 4 by-elections in 1986 that were uncontested (leaving aside a joke candidate pretending to be the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs).
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread Sunil, but I think you will find universal suffrage was 1928 not 1918. 1918 was universal male suffrage (unless you were a conscientious objector).

    Edit - also of course there were 4 by-elections in 1986 that were uncontested (leaving aside a joke candidate pretending to be the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs).

    Why did we never get any mention last year about it being 100 years since the introduction of universal male suffrage - the majority of young men sent to the trenches to their deaths during WWI didn't have the vote either as it was restricted to property owners and male heads of households (i.e. fathers not their young sons).

    Or wouldn't that suit the narrative - that in reality it wasn't the suffragettes breaking windows in London that got women the vote but the social change and pressure brought about by WWI (i.e. 1 million young men dying in the trenches and millions of working class women doing work in factories and mines that men had done before)?


  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929
    edited April 2019

    dixiedean said:

    First. Like the mighty Everton.

    in the race for seventh?
    Yes. And by several laps over Man United today.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,885
    edited April 2019
    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    FPT:
    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    If you read about the 4DDs you’ll learn that they weren’t terribly successful because the UK loading gauge (the distance lineside structures can be from the track and thus the maximum size of rail vehicles) is too small for true double deck vehicles: the 4DDs had to interleave their “downstairs” and “upstairs” compartments which were very cramped as a result. They also had very long dwell times at rush hour due to the time it took the upstairs passengers to get in and out.

    This is a result of the UK being the first to construct passenger railways on a large scale, with the earliest carriages being based on stagecoach designs, and so were stagecoach-sized (in height and width at least). This meant the positioning of lineside structures and so the loading gauge closely followed the vehicle sizes. Europe, the US and other places learnt from this and started with larger loading gauges, many of which are big enough for true double-deck vehicles (although even then some like the Long Island RR bi-levels feel somewhat cramped on the top deck).

    HS2, like HS1 before it, is built to the full UIC (Union Internationale des Chemins de Fer) loading gauge and will support full double-deck cars like the TGV “duplexes”. There are also vague plans to increase the loading gauge on some of the SW London commuter routes, though I suspect what will actually be practical to do there will be so constrained that any d-d cars on those routes will feel pretty cramped.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    only because you can make money out of them ;)
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    Ministerial by-elections were uncontested, aiui.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    Ministerial by-elections were uncontested, aiui.
    Browsing through the list on wikipedia (what I life I lead), it seems like a significant number were contested.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    FPT, there's an Italian Party called More Europe, campaigning for the Euros. That's what Change UK should call themselves.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955
    Sean_F said:

    FPT, there's an Italian Party called More Europe, campaigning for the Euros. That's what Change UK should call themselves.

    Probably not enough Europe for some.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,146
    FPT Asia Bibi is still in Pakistan in hiding because the wretched government won’t release her to either of the two countries who have offered her asylum.

    And, yes, we should offer it too. Stuff those communities who would threaten the peace if she were allowed in.

    How much aid do we give this ghastly country every year? Why don’t we bloody well use that soft power to protest about the appalling way Christians are treated there? There have been a number of attacks on churches and their congregations there as well.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,094
    brendan16 said:

    Or wouldn't that suit the narrative - that in reality it wasn't the suffragettes breaking windows in London that got women the vote but the social change and pressure brought about by WWI (i.e. 1 million young men dying in the trenches and millions of working class women doing work in factories and mines that men had done before)?

    Well, that was of course the reality. The 1918 franchise was based effectively on War service, so all veterans got the vote (even the sixteen year olds) along with older women who were married and had therefore in theory born the heaviest burden.

    That's also why COs were disenfranchised, of course, something DeGroot called 'an act of conspicuous pique.'
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,146
    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Interesting article, Dr. Prasannan.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,184
    Great article Sunil.

    Thanks.
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    NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 703
    I think it was Nick Palmer who once explained that MPs’ pensions were very poor until the time of John Major’s Government, so a lot of them couldn’t afford to retire. So that’s another factor.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,929
    OT apologies for my tip of Luo Honghao to win his first match at the Crucible.
    The kid has gone to pieces on the big stage...won't see that tenner again.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,946
    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945

    A young relatively good looking straight white Irish American family man with three kids - sadly for Beto its 2020 not 1960.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    edited April 2019
    FPT
    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

  • Options
    NeilVW said:

    I think it was Nick Palmer who once explained that MPs’ pensions were very poor until the time of John Major’s Government, so a lot of them couldn’t afford to retire. So that’s another factor.

    Would be interested to know his threshold for a pension to qualify as better than poor.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    brendan16 said:

    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945

    A young relatively good looking straight white Irish American family man with three kids - sadly for Beto its 2020 not 1960.
    A bit too much like a Simpsons couch gag.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    Ministerial by-elections were uncontested, aiui.
    Not so. Winston Churchill lost his Manchester seat in 1908 caused by his appointment to the Cabinet as President of the Board of Trade. He then had to fight a second by election at Dundee.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,935
    Interesting article Sunil, maybe the rise if more family friendly hours, less of a drinking culture ibn the Commons and the fact fewer MPs have done manual labour has had an impact as well. Increasingly MPs who do resign and force by elections do so to go into new posts elsewhere e.g. David Miliband and George Osborne
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    Isn't there also an issue with the width of the gauge and stability?
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT Asia Bibi is still in Pakistan in hiding because the wretched government won’t release her to either of the two countries who have offered her asylum.

    And, yes, we should offer it too. Stuff those communities who would threaten the peace if she were allowed in.

    How much aid do we give this ghastly country every year? Why don’t we bloody well use that soft power to protest about the appalling way Christians are treated there? There have been a number of attacks on churches and their congregations there as well.

    I think few would disagree. However that may well be happening, the point about weilding diplomatic influence is that by definition it is behind the scenes.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    Thanks for the nice words, guys :)

    (and thanks to Mike and TSE for publishing!)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Dean, if betting were easy, no bookie could make a living. Easy for things to go awry (as I have proven in recent F1 seasons).
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    rpjs said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    If you read about the 4DDs you’ll learn that they weren’t terribly successful because the UK loading gauge (the distance lineside structures can be from the track and thus the maximum size of rail vehicles) is too small for true double deck vehicles: the 4DDs had to interleave their “downstairs” and “upstairs” compartments which were very cramped as a result. They also had very long dwell times at rush hour due to the time it took the upstairs passengers to get in and out.

    This is a result of the UK being the first to construct passenger railways on a large scale, with the earliest carriages being based on stagecoach designs, and so were stagecoach-sized (in height and width at least). This meant the positioning of lineside structures and so the loading gauge closely followed the vehicle sizes. Europe, the US and other places learnt from this and started with larger loading gauges, many of which are big enough for true double-deck vehicles (although even then some like the Long Island RR bi-levels feel somewhat cramped on the top deck).

    HS2, like HS1 before it, is built to the full UIC (Union Internationale des Chemins de Fer) loading gauge and will support full double-deck cars like the TGV “duplexes”. There are also vague plans to increase the loading gauge on some of the SW London commuter routes, though I suspect what will actually be practical to do there will be so constrained that any d-d cars on those routes will feel pretty cramped.
    I don't believe that the Australian train is significantly taller - it goes down a lot lower, in between the wheels. Look at how low the lower windows are. It's brilliant.
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBHXuTkvWvuSXoSDhgf7MxVXe6ssVawZulxZFu0dSSRLCnajIM-g
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Thanks for the article. I have learnt something new here in that I had wrongly assumed that Ministerial By elections ceased from 1918 - rather than 1926.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,137

    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945

    https://twitter.com/PeteButtigieg/status/1119945008973516800
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.
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    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    Ishmael_Z said:

    brendan16 said:

    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945

    A young relatively good looking straight white Irish American family man with three kids - sadly for Beto its 2020 not 1960.
    A bit too much like a Simpsons couch gag.
    Gag was certainly my reaction.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,701

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    French suburban trains, at least around Paris too. Also TGV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCF_TGV_Duplex
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    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138

    I've assumed from the closeness of the senatorial race that Beto must have had something about him, but so far his run for the Dem nomination seems entirely beige, even charisma free.

    https://twitter.com/BetoORourke/status/1119992147871186945

    Buttigeig has taken all his shine.

    Apparently two of his top staff have quit in recent days.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Indeed. Had Callaghan not elevated so many MPs to the Lords , he would have avoided a few by elections and his Government would have survived the VONC in March 1979.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    dixiedean said:

    OT apologies for my tip of Luo Honghao to win his first match at the Crucible.
    The kid has gone to pieces on the big stage...won't see that tenner again.

    LIVE: Shaun Murphy (Eng) 7-0 Luo Honghao (Chn)

    Hmmm, just a bit off?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    edited April 2019

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    Ministerial by-elections were uncontested, aiui.
    Well, in the time-frame my article discussed, Dudley in 1922 and Pontypridd the same year were both Labour gains from Coalition Conservative and Coalition Liberal respectively.

    Other contested Ministerial contests that were contested were all six in 1920, Bewdley as well as Bedford in 1921, and Bury St Edmunds in 1925, and East Renfrewshire in 1926 - the last ever ministerial by-election.

    So that makes 12 of the 20 from 1919-1926.
  • Options

    rpjs said:

    FPT:

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    If you read about the 4DDs you’ll learn that they weren’t terribly successful because the UK loading gauge (the distance lineside structures can be from the track and thus the maximum size of rail vehicles) is too small for true double deck vehicles: the 4DDs had to interleave their “downstairs” and “upstairs” compartments which were very cramped as a result. They also had very long dwell times at rush hour due to the time it took the upstairs passengers to get in and out.

    This is a result of the UK being the first to construct passenger railways on a large scale, with the earliest carriages being based on stagecoach designs, and so were stagecoach-sized (in height and width at least). This meant the positioning of lineside structures and so the loading gauge closely followed the vehicle sizes. Europe, the US and other places learnt from this and started with larger loading gauges, many of which are big enough for true double-deck vehicles (although even then some like the Long Island RR bi-levels feel somewhat cramped on the top deck).

    HS2, like HS1 before it, is built to the full UIC (Union Internationale des Chemins de Fer) loading gauge and will support full double-deck cars like the TGV “duplexes”. There are also vague plans to increase the loading gauge on some of the SW London commuter routes, though I suspect what will actually be practical to do there will be so constrained that any d-d cars on those routes will feel pretty cramped.
    I don't believe that the Australian train is significantly taller - it goes down a lot lower, in between the wheels. Look at how low the lower windows are. It's brilliant.
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBHXuTkvWvuSXoSDhgf7MxVXe6ssVawZulxZFu0dSSRLCnajIM-g
    UK standard is 2.6m wide & 2.9m high loading gauge on lines such as the WCML which is what HS2 is intended to relieve.

    Australian have a loading gauge of 3.2m wide and 3.48m high on lines that have double decker trains.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge

    Reason HS2 is being developed is because when all the other options to increase have been considered it is the most sensible choice.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,317

    NeilVW said:

    I think it was Nick Palmer who once explained that MPs’ pensions were very poor until the time of John Major’s Government, so a lot of them couldn’t afford to retire. So that’s another factor.

    Would be interested to know his threshold for a pension to qualify as better than poor.
    Thanks to Sunil for the interesting piece - I was vaguely aware that by-elections had become rarer, but not how far.

    My recollection from service as a Trustee for the emergency fund for former MPs was that pensions used to be almost non-existent in the old days (going back to the 1950s) - I remember the widow of a Prime Minister from that period applying to us for help to have a broken window repaired, and reporting her income and savings as virtually zero apart from the national pension. We felt that however harshly people judged politicians, they would be rather shocked at this, and we did help her. I'm not sure when the pensions became substantial.

    I'm sure that general longevity plays a part, and of course in a hung Parliament MPs on both sides are urged not to stand down on a whim. The sharp changes in political profile in both major parties have also led to more retirements when MPs decide they don't much like the new regime and alternative careers are a less painful option than a publikc defection.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,868

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,317
    Welcome to NeilNW by the way - a new face?
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    RobD said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    Isn't there also an issue with the width of the gauge and stability?
    We have the smallest main-line loading gauge of major European countries - and the deep-level tubes in London are even smaller! Only Moorgate to Drayton Park (near Arsenal) is a proper main-line tube (brand new Class 717 units have just started regular service).
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.

    Sure, but loading gauge. You can’t even get 165/166 (Thames Turbos) across much of the network because of platform clearances.

    The Southern Region is genuinely difficult, and the WCML is full - hence HS2. But on the rest of the network, the answer to capacity issues is simple: run longer trains. All modern trains have Selective Door Opening so platform lengths shouldn’t be an issue.

    It’s the franchising system’s hostility to investment that makes this difficult. Both CrossCountry and Arriva Trains Wales would be in a much better position had they each lengthened their trains 10 years ago, but both were let to Arriva on no-investment contracts. The situation right now is brighter: Northern, TfW, TPE, WMT, Greater Anglia and EMR have all been let on the basis of significant fleet replacement. But as industry watchers like Roger Ford will tell you, feast-to-famine is no way to run a railway.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    edited April 2019
    ydoethur said:

    Interesting thread Sunil, but I think you will find universal suffrage was 1928 not 1918. 1918 was universal male suffrage (unless you were a conscientious objector).

    Edit - also of course there were 4 by-elections in 1986 that were uncontested (leaving aside a joke candidate pretending to be the Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs).

    Peter Barry, I know - like I said, more on the NI resignations in Part 2!

    But, people still voted for "him"! 6,000 or so, across the four seats he "contested"!
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Sooooo pleased you wrote Maths. I loathe the American version "math"
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    edited April 2019
    justin124 said:

    Thanks for the article. I have learnt something new here in that I had wrongly assumed that Ministerial By elections ceased from 1918 - rather than 1926.

    The act was passed in 1919, but allowed for some provision for them to continue if the "promotion" occurred later than 9 months after a General. An amendment in 1926 finally put paid to them altogether.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Sooooo pleased you wrote Maths. I loathe the American version "math"
    shouldn't the phrase be "parliamentary arithmetic"?

    *gets coat*
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894
    What horrendous news from Sri Lanka, 200+ victims <°<
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195
    9% others?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Sooooo pleased you wrote Maths. I loathe the American version "math"
    shouldn't the phrase be "parliamentary arithmetic"?

    *gets coat*
    I am not sure how many grammatical errors there are in *gets coat *
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    If there is a vacancy for the Labour leadership there will be a contest under the rules. McDonell may stand, though he has said in the past that he wouldn't, but it is by no means certain that he would win. What is certain is that all the candidates would have to promise a second referendum if they were to have any hope of winning. And it's likely that PV supporters would rush to sign up as registered supporters so they would get a vote and ensure that Labour pivoted firmly into the PV camp.
  • Options
    NeilVWNeilVW Posts: 703

    Welcome to NeilNW by the way - a new face?

    Thanks. Been here a while, very occasionally I put in my two penn’orth.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,127
    Pulpstar said:

    What horrendous news from Sri Lanka, 200+ victims <°<</p>

    What tho' the spicy breezes
    Blow soft o'er Ceylon's isle;
    Though every prospect pleases,
    And only man is vile?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195

    I rather like the rule that MPs had to resign their seat and fight a by-election on being appointed a minister. What a wonderful extra complication.

    To my mind all by-elections are good thing.

    Certainly makes for interesting threads :)
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894

    9% others?
    SNP, Plaid, National health action, soundings.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    4. Bait and switch. If Corbyn is not going to be PM it’s fraud by misrepresentation* firchim to campaign as leader of one of the parties vying to be in power

    * yes I know that’s legally not the case but seemed the simplest way to convey the concept
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    If there is a vacancy for the Labour leadership there will be a contest under the rules. McDonell may stand, though he has said in the past that he wouldn't, but it is by no means certain that he would win. What is certain is that all the candidates would have to promise a second referendum if they were to have any hope of winning. And it's likely that PV supporters would rush to sign up as registered supporters so they would get a vote and ensure that Labour pivoted firmly into the PV camp.
    Are labour rules different when in government? This is what the scenario is expected to be.

    Additionally of Corbyn has just won an election I’d expect he’d have a massive amount of influence
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,246
    Very interesting Sunil, thanks.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,946
    edited April 2019
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,999
    A big headache for Putin to have a Russian-speaking Ukrainian leader with popular appeal within Russia.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,246

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Sooooo pleased you wrote Maths. I loathe the American version "math"
    That is an abomination.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    If there is a vacancy for the Labour leadership there will be a contest under the rules. McDonell may stand, though he has said in the past that he wouldn't, but it is by no means certain that he would win. What is certain is that all the candidates would have to promise a second referendum if they were to have any hope of winning. And it's likely that PV supporters would rush to sign up as registered supporters so they would get a vote and ensure that Labour pivoted firmly into the PV camp.
    Assuming McDonnell doesn't stand, are there any other Marxists in the frame or would Labour revert to something approximating to sanity?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    RobD said:

    So the Great Majority has become a small minority.

    The closeness of the last three elections no doubt has something to do with the decline in optional by-elections too. Each MP makes a difference to the Parliamentary maths.

    Sooooo pleased you wrote Maths. I loathe the American version "math"
    shouldn't the phrase be "parliamentary arithmetic"?

    *gets coat*
    I am not sure how many grammatical errors there are in *gets coat *
    Pardon me, that should have been *get's coat*.


    *innocent face*
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,946

    A big headache for Putin to have a Russian-speaking Ukrainian leader with popular appeal within Russia.
    Thank goodness there isn't a history of Putin taking direct action to cure his headaches.
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    If there is a vacancy for the Labour leadership there will be a contest under the rules. McDonell may stand, though he has said in the past that he wouldn't, but it is by no means certain that he would win. What is certain is that all the candidates would have to promise a second referendum if they were to have any hope of winning. And it's likely that PV supporters would rush to sign up as registered supporters so they would get a vote and ensure that Labour pivoted firmly into the PV camp.
    Assuming McDonnell doesn't stand, are there any other Marxists in the frame or would Labour revert to something approximating to sanity?
    McDonnell is certainly the closet to Corbyn in political outlook, all the other potentials are younger and differ in varying degrees from Corbyn. I think there will be a strong push to elect a woman next time and candidates from the shadow cabinet might perhaps be Thornbery, Long Bailey, Rayner, and then there's Yvette Cooper who might run again. Possible men are McDonnell, Watson, perhaps Clive Lewis.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Cyclefree said:

    isam said:

    Charles said:

    Lunch today heard some interesting Westminster gossip

    No idea as to accuracy and was second hand so take it for what it’s worth

    Rumour is Corbyn has cancer - assuming a near term election he will front campaign but McDonnell will take over after election. Longer term election who knows?

    Oh dear, I hope that rumour isn’t true
    So do I, for three reasons:-

    1. Not nice for Corbyn.
    2. McDonnell much more dangerous than Corbyn.
    3. Sick of having PMs foisted on us by small numbers of the party faithful. First, Brown then May. Enough.
    4. Bait and switch. If Corbyn is not going to be PM it’s fraud by misrepresentation* firchim to campaign as leader of one of the parties vying to be in power

    * yes I know that’s legally not the case but seemed the simplest way to convey the concept
    Even simpler would be to invite voters to remember the transitions to John Major, Gordon Brown and Theresa May herself rather than have a fit of the vapours at parties changing leader in government. Especially if Theresa May herself will also have been replaced by then.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rpjs said:

    If you read about the 4DDs you’ll learn that they weren’t terribly successful because the UK loading gauge (the distance lineside structures can be from the track and thus the maximum size of rail vehicles) is too small for true double deck vehicles: the 4DDs had to interleave their “downstairs” and “upstairs” compartments which were very cramped as a result. They also had very long dwell times at rush hour due to the time it took the upstairs passengers to get in and out.

    HS2, like HS1 before it, is built to the full UIC (Union Internationale des Chemins de Fer) loading gauge and will support full double-deck cars like the TGV “duplexes”. There are also vague plans to increase the loading gauge on some of the SW London commuter routes, though I suspect what will actually be practical to do there will be so constrained that any d-d cars on those routes will feel pretty cramped.

    I don't believe that the Australian train is significantly taller - it goes down a lot lower, in between the wheels. Look at how low the lower windows are. It's brilliant.
    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBHXuTkvWvuSXoSDhgf7MxVXe6ssVawZulxZFu0dSSRLCnajIM-g
    UK standard is 2.6m wide & 2.9m high loading gauge on lines such as the WCML which is what HS2 is intended to relieve.

    Australian have a loading gauge of 3.2m wide and 3.48m high on lines that have double decker trains.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge

    Reason HS2 is being developed is because when all the other options to increase have been considered it is the most sensible choice.
    The difference between the Aussie and British loading gauges may not sound like much, but it would be enough to make that style of bi-level very difficult to implement in the UK. If you look closely at the video you can see that the headroom on the upper deck isn’t great and neither deck has overhead luggage racks.

    Another problem with split-level double-deck coaches like that is that the stairs mean wheelchair users and other mobility-impaired passengers can’t access those decks. Those sort of cars usually have a single-deck area at either end where such passengers can go, but all put together you’re not really getting anything like twice the capacity of a singe-level car, maybe 50% extra at best.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Believable in what sense? It is unlikely the smaller parties will be standing in most places so what do we make of their numbers? Who will their erstwhile supporters vote for instead?
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    "UK law prohibits forecasts of the outcome of recall petitions which are based on statements from or surveys of potential signatories"

    huh
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,285
    It’s not as though we don’t already have a comedian in a position of far greater power.
    At least this one is a professional.

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,572
    Sunil burnishes his credentials as biggest wonk on PB.

    Should I be worried that I find it interesting?
  • Options
    saddosaddo Posts: 534

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    The Ukrainian Mrs Sandpit is watching their local TV news with her mouth wide open.

    It’s like the U.K. had directly elected Paul Eddington to replace Margaret Thatcher.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,543
    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,868

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195

    Sunil burnishes his credentials as biggest wonk on PB.

    Should I be worried that I find it interesting?

    Very interesting Sunil, thanks.


    Thanks to Sunil for the interesting piece -

    You're welcome!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    If you just look at the section of the graph from 1992 to now - which is still a relatively long historical period of over twenty five years - there really isn't any obvious trend. The downward trend postwar was between the sixties and eighties. Probably a combination of improved longevity reducing deaths, and fewer resignations once third parties made almost no by-election safe, from Orpington onwards.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian Mrs Sandpit is watching their local TV news with her mouth wide open.

    It’s like the U.K. had directly elected Paul Eddington to replace Margaret Thatcher.
    Imagine. Martin Sheen announces his candidacy for 2020
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,195

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.
    The Dutch ones are similar, and seem to work well at stations even when frequent.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834

    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian Mrs Sandpit is watching their local TV news with her mouth wide open.

    It’s like the U.K. had directly elected Paul Eddington to replace Margaret Thatcher.
    Imagine. Martin Sheen announces his candidacy for 2020
    It would be hilarious if someone would fund Alec Baldwin to run as an Indy - he could go to the debate and parody everything Trump says straight back to him. :)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,868

    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.

    Yes, it is brilliant, but it's built to a more expansive loading gauge than ours. And if a train stops for a minute at a station to offload, extending that by even 30 seconds would have dramatic consequences for timings and capacities if stations are called at every five minutes.

    (It gets a little worse than that, as there are different 'forms' of loading gauge. The faster a train goes, the more a train will sway and be affected by cant and dynamic forces. Therefore you need to take kinematics into account - especially with platform edges.)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,868

    saddo said:

    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    I know from experience that most rail franchise bidders have looked at double dockers at some time, but it's always rejected. Station dwell time for train loading and unloading, as you say is a major problem that does reduce capacity. Theres also a more basic problem across nearly all of the network , rail bridges are too low for double deck trains.
    Open topped double deckers maybe?
    With electronic 'DUCK!' signs whenever bridges come along. Oh, and stretches with overhead electrification might be a trifle difficult. ;)
    There's always third (or fourth) rail :) Much less visually obtrusive!
    But less good for speed ...
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    FPT

    tlg86 said:

    My two pence on HS2, I think we should get two storey trains instead.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HgQM_v3mln0

    We used to have them:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD
    Thanks, that's really interesting. I note from the wiki article that in the main, the problems with the train came from clearance issues meaning the height of the carriages was limited and therefore the storeys were cramped and poorly ventilated. Those clever aussie trains appear to use the bits in between the wheels and have ample space. It would be ideal. If they could be built in the UK that would be even better. They'd be the routemaster bus of the new generation.
    A massive issue (as @rpjs mentions) is the dwell time at stations. Since you don't double capacity with a double-decker (as there are stair wells and other things reducing capacity), then it takes much longer for people to get from the top deck to the platform. If there are frequent stations, this can reduce, not increase, capacity as you end up with a really slow train blocking other services, including fast ones.

    That's less of an issue with HS2. However that will have issues with the classic-compatible trains that go on the rest of the network to extend their journeys.
    Yes, I realise you wouldn't double capacity for the reasons you mention. However I don't think the Australian train I posted the video of would cause big increases in length of stops, as there are just 5 small steps up and 5 small steps down. The whole thing is brilliantly designed.
    I think a difference of 60cm if height difference between Australian and UK trains is rather significant in this discussion.

    I am sure the trains are incredibly well designed, but with 60cm less in the UK and a requirement to put the engine somewhere (normally under the floor) reality is you are not going to comfortably travel on double decker trains on the WCML as a way of creating extra capacity.

    Funnily enough before HS2 was a thing options like this were considered and disregarded for this very reason.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,317
    Sandpit said:

    The Ukrainian Mrs Sandpit is watching their local TV news with her mouth wide open.

    It’s like the U.K. had directly elected Paul Eddington to replace Margaret Thatcher.
    If you have a choice between the candidate of what many see as a corrupt establishment and somebody who looks pleasant and you know nothing about, the choice seems logical. Perhaps he'll even get a peace deal.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,834
    While we still talk about railway lines (and runways), the rest of the world is actually building them.

    Kudos to the first politician who dares to suggest serious planning reform for major infrastructure projects. HS2, HS3 and two new runways at LHR all need to have been opened yesterday.

    To all the greenies opposed to development, we currently have thousands of smelly lorries on motorways and hundreds of planes flying round in circles over London, contributing massively to pollution and greenhouse gas emissions.
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