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The other plan I've heard on the salt horse rumour mill is to cut the escort fleet to 17 hulls from 19 to crew PoW. That would actually make a lot of sense so we probably won't do it.DougSeal said:
I don’t have your expertise and can only go on what the press reportsDura_Ace said:
If you believe it's just "the design" I've got an aircraft carrier to sell you. The RN have already said the PoW will "focus" on rotary wing ops in acknowledgement that two CSGs aren't going to be possible. So, as the world's most expensive helicopter carrier, it will be ripe for a realignment of priorities or similar euphemism.DougSeal said:
I think this Telegraph report, according to which we are trying to sell the design rather than the ships, may be creating confusionTheuniondivvie said:
Wasn't a sell off announced early on then rowed back upon since?Casino_Royale said:
Source?Dura_Ace said:
The Fireplace Salesman has had the Indian Navy round this week running a tape measure over HMS PoW. He's going to need a hell of a day to bury that news if they decide to pull the trigger on that deal.DavidL said:
I fear he fails even at that.JackW said:
I'll raise you Gavin Williamson ..... whose only role in government is to make Chris Grayling look barely competent.Big_G_NorthWales said:Is there anybody as utterly useless as Shami Chakabarti.....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/04/royal-navy-carrier-design-could-sold-india/
Having said that the Indian procurement processes make those of the British look like a model of alacrity (their first Hawk deal took 26 years) so it'll probably come to nothing.0 -
I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.another_richard said:
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. 'AlastairMeeks said:
It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816
These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'
If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.
I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/
And a good afternoon to all PBers.0 -
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
+1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.Richard_Tyndall said:
There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.DougSeal said:
Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.Scott_P said:
We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.0 -
Flogging HMS POW seems a good bet to me, though the Germans and French might be interested.Dura_Ace said:
If you believe it's just "the design" I've got an aircraft carrier to sell you. The RN have already said the PoW will "focus" on rotary wing ops in acknowledgement that two CSGs aren't going to be possible. So, as the world's most expensive helicopter carrier, it will be ripe for a realignment of priorities or similar euphemism.DougSeal said:
I think this Telegraph report, according to which we are trying to sell the design rather than the ships, may be creating confusionTheuniondivvie said:
Wasn't a sell off announced early on then rowed back upon since?Casino_Royale said:
Source?Dura_Ace said:
The Fireplace Salesman has had the Indian Navy round this week running a tape measure over HMS PoW. He's going to need a hell of a day to bury that news if they decide to pull the trigger on that deal.DavidL said:
I fear he fails even at that.JackW said:
I'll raise you Gavin Williamson ..... whose only role in government is to make Chris Grayling look barely competent.Big_G_NorthWales said:Is there anybody as utterly useless as Shami Chakabarti.....
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/04/royal-navy-carrier-design-could-sold-india/
Having said that the Indian procurement processes make those of the British look like a model of alacrity (their first Hawk deal took 26 years) so it'll probably come to nothing.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany-proposes-european-aircraft-carrier/0 -
Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.isam said:
One way it could be logical is that many tens of thousands of people commute to London each day and notice how glad they are they don’t live there/confirm why they moved away.Theuniondivvie said:
So migration to London, a strongly Remain city, caused Brexit? Not sure if I see the logic.AndyJS said:O/T
One of the most interesting books of recent years IMO.
https://debalie.nl/agenda/this-is-london-despair-poverty-and-unfulfilled-dreams/
"According to Ben Judah, Brexit was mainly the result of bad migration policies. In his book ‘This is London’, he shows the reasons why. His epic account of contemporary London is motivated by a desire to show the city in its true (new) colors: as a megacity of global migrants, some of them rich, most of them poor, few of them happy with their fate.
While he voted remain, he understands why so many people have voted for Brexit. The ideal of free movement of people has led to many problems. According to Judah, the EU is not working in its current form.
In Judah’s latest book ‘This is London’, we hear stories we have never heard before and meet the people we would not have seen otherwise. This is an account of the city’s variety and its divisions. Judah shows us the capital of the UK through the eyes of its beggars, bankers, coppers, gangsters, careres, sex workers and witch-doctors."
I can see a case for London taking on a semi mythical quality, a Sodom & Gomorrah simultaneously sucking in all the money while being a beach head for the immigrants about to swamp us all. That sort of thing probably even had currency in the most homogeneously white British Leave constituencies.0 -
We know that the Home Office screws up. It's no excuse for starting a riot on an aircraft. Once again, did any of those passengers stop to think about what they were doing, or did they just go charging into a situation that they did not understand like so many bulls in a china shop, quite probably based on the assumption that all deportations are wrong?Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
Indeed, the other depressing part of this story is the way in which the mutiny was allowed to succeed. If the passengers had revolted like that for any other reason they'd have been arrested. They should've been arrested, in fact, and dragged off the flight. The immigration officials could then have done their jobs, the rapist would've been got rid of, and it would've acted as a deterrent to further outbursts of temper on aircraft - a very sensitive matter, for obvious reasons.0 -
despite three years of temper tantrums and caterwauling armageddon I cant see that much difference to 2015. though the world happiness index indicates we are getting happier as a nation.AlastairMeeks said:
I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.another_richard said:
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. 'AlastairMeeks said:
It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816
These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'
If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.
I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/
And a good afternoon to all PBers.
http://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019/0 -
The alternative was to let Gadaffi carry out a massacre. The outcome would have been similar.NickPalmer said:
+1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.Richard_Tyndall said:
There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.DougSeal said:
Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.Scott_P said:
We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.0 -
Apopros of nothing really, Boris would presumably find room in his cabinet for JRM.Theuniondivvie said:
I'm sure some variation of the name could be constructed for Mogg.Sean_F said:
I believe he's called Count Worm.JosiasJessop said:
Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it.viewcode said:
Is this it?JosiasJessop said:The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"
Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny.
Jacob Rees Mogg is an anagram of Bojo's Cream Egg0 -
My new name for Rees-Mogg, with one syllable removed.Sean_F said:
I believe he's called Count Worm.JosiasJessop said:
Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it.viewcode said:
Is this it?JosiasJessop said:The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"
Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny.0 -
The EUS Roy Jenkins would almost certainly be a nuke CATOBAR carrier. The current plan, such as it is, is a French/German crewed hull and rotating French/German/Italian/Spanish air wings. Let's hope the wardroom galley is French operated.Foxy said:
Flogging HMS POW seems a good bet to me, though the Germans and French might be interested.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany-proposes-european-aircraft-carrier/
It's a worthy idea but the politics of it are too tortuous for it ever to happen.0 -
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Home Office screws up. It's no excuse for starting a riot on an aircraft. Once again, did any of those passengers stop to think about what they were doing, or did they just go charging into a situation that they did not understand like so many bulls in a china shop, quite probably based on the assumption that all deportations are wrong?Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
Indeed, the other depressing part of this story is the way in which the mutiny was allowed to succeed. If the passengers had revolted like that for any other reason they'd have been arrested. They should've been arrested, in fact, and dragged off the flight. The immigration officials could then have done their jobs, the rapist would've been got rid of, and it would've acted as a deterrent to further outbursts of temper on aircraft - a very sensitive matter, for obvious reasons.
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.0 -
Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.Foxy said:
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Hosons.Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.0 -
I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.Alanbrooke said:
Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.Foxy said:
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Hosons.Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.0 -
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
0 -
I presume Momentum and the Rachael Swindon brigade are, this afternoon, furiously denouncing Shami and demanding she be thrown out of the party, now that she has said Jezza wont be leader forever.
0 -
To be fair I would prefer General Haftar to Gaddhafi. Iraq was a mess but at least now has a democratic Government and is finally ISIS free. In Syria we never intervened against Assad.NickPalmer said:
+1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.Richard_Tyndall said:
There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.DougSeal said:
Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.Scott_P said:
We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.0 -
They are fucked. Boris doing his eBay Trump act with some rank xenophobic nonsense is their only hope.AlastairMeeks said:0 -
And to think that within days this whole damaging humiliating farcical fiasco could be overdixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?Foxy said:
I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.Alanbrooke said:
Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.Foxy said:
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Hosons.Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that y regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.0 -
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Thank goodness for the Union then.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
And yet he retains significant popularity in the party and recognition with the public.Luckyguy1983 said:
Who is he actually popular with? He doesn't cross over. He's not trusted within his party or liked outside of it. His ambition has made him a joke. He's been slobbering over the PM job like a priapic St Bernard for years and it's an embarrassment.HYUFD said:
Rubbish, Boris has presence and charisma speaks foreign languages etc. Currently there are only 4 western leaders most of the world have heard of, Trump, Merkel, Macron and Trudeau (May is not a big enough personality or long servingbdnough to be noticeable beyond those interested in politics beyond our shores). Boris would help us punch above our weight again and be the most recognised UK PM since Blair.Cyclefree said:Boris Johnson as PM would lower Britain’s standing in the world even more than our current failure to make up our minds. He is not well regarded, to put it mildly. He is a joke and to put him in charge of Britain at a time when we need to earn our way in the world, having pretty much torn up our existing model, would be a catastrophic mistake.
Given half the world is led by populist leaders anyway at the moment, Trump, Bolsonaro, Lopez Obrador, Conte, Netanyahu, Tsipras, Modi, Putin etc, Boris would just reflect the global trend0 -
Revokers and no dealers have played a very risky game pushing things to the very cliff edge in the hope and expectation they can get what they want without the uncertainty of a referendum or GE. It might work, but it is very reckless of them.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
No, and it is why scandals such as Mid Staffs are so damaging.Alanbrooke said:
People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?Foxy said:
I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.Alanbrooke said:
Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.Foxy said:
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Hosons.Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that y regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
The key thing for an institution to do after such incidents is to regain trust, and revise procedures openly to prevent repeat.
I would suggest that the Home Office has failed to convince that it has done so.0 -
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
Please!IanB2 said:
And to think that within days this whole damaging humiliating farcical fiasco could be overdixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
So if we cant get the NHS squeaky clkean why do you think well get the police squeaky clean ?Foxy said:
No, and it is why scandals such as Mid Staffs are so damaging.Alanbrooke said:
People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?Foxy said:
I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.Alanbrooke said:
Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.Foxy said:
Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?Black_Rook said:
We know that the Hosons.Foxy said:
To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.Black_Rook said:
I suggest that y regime?Foxy said:
Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968
We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.
Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.
The contagion is spreading.
Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
The key thing for an institution to do after such incidents is to regain trust, and revise procedures openly to prevent repeat.
I would suggest that the Home Office has failed to convince that it has done so.0 -
Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalismBenpointer said:
Thank goodness for the Union then.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
I think you are right. But I have a feeling if the backup from the Celts and Picts wasn't there, there would be a majority to revoke amongst the Saxon MPs as well.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
So does gout.kle4 said:
And yet he retains significant popularity in the party and recognition with the public.Luckyguy1983 said:
Who is he actually popular with? He doesn't cross over. He's not trusted within his party or liked outside of it. His ambition has made him a joke. He's been slobbering over the PM job like a priapic St Bernard for years and it's an embarrassment.HYUFD said:
Rubbish, Boris has presence and charisma speaks foreign languages etc. Currently there are only 4 western leaders most of the world have heard of, Trump, Merkel, Macron and Trudeau (May is not a big enough personality or long servingbdnough to be noticeable beyond those interested in politics beyond our shores). Boris would help us punch above our weight again and be the most recognised UK PM since Blair.Cyclefree said:Boris Johnson as PM would lower Britain’s standing in the world even more than our current failure to make up our minds. He is not well regarded, to put it mildly. He is a joke and to put him in charge of Britain at a time when we need to earn our way in the world, having pretty much torn up our existing model, would be a catastrophic mistake.
Given half the world is led by populist leaders anyway at the moment, Trump, Bolsonaro, Lopez Obrador, Conte, Netanyahu, Tsipras, Modi, Putin etc, Boris would just reflect the global trend0 -
The last occasion that EU elections took place with no Local Elections on the same day was in 1999. Turnout was then 24%. Perhaps we can expect something similar next month.0
-
It has stalled a bit but yes the average voter can expect to live a further 17 years once they reach 65, that is a lot of voters and more in Tory leaning areasMarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
More recently that has stopped, with even some suggestions of a reversal. Our parents' lifestyle was in many respects more healthy than our children's, smoking asideMarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
I don't think so, a clear majority of English MPs are Tory and England voted Leave unlike Scotland and most DUP MPs back No Deal. A majority of Welsh MPs may vote to revoke even though Wales voted Leave as most of them are Labour but that would not be enough to overturn the votes of English MPs and the DUP whereas it would if SNP MPs votes were added tooRecidivist said:
I think you are right. But I have a feeling if the backup from the Celts and Picts wasn't there, there would be a majority to revoke amongst the Saxon MPs as well.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Although there are concerns about disproportionate investment in London (largely the result of the enormous cost of Crossrail,) the main issue is nothing to do with the city itself per se - it's the disproportionate concentration of power and influence there. London, as well as Westminster, has become a byword for several ills. A political elite that has too much power concentrated in its hands, and which is too venal and/or incompetent to be trusted to exercise it correctly. A media and journalistic elite with (at least until the shock of the 2016 referendum) little affinity with or interest in people outside the M25. A financial centre full of fabulously wealthy people and corporate entities who make easy fortunes, often off the backs of ordinary people, and yet pay little or no tax.Theuniondivvie said:Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.
I can see a case for London taking on a semi mythical quality, a Sodom & Gomorrah simultaneously sucking in all the money while being a beach head for the immigrants about to swamp us all. That sort of thing probably even had currency in the most homogeneously white British Leave constituencies.
We can all argue until we're blue in the face about to what extent these perceptions are actually true, but I would argue that they are widely held and not entirely without foundation in any of the three cases.
As far as immigration is concerned, it's understandable why May has prioritised getting some control back over the borders, given that it was so obviously a key factor in the Leave vote. This is also understandable. Again, one can debate the extent to which people were well-informed or otherwise about the issue, and what their motivations were if indeed it did persuade them to vote to Leave, but the fact that there was a problem that needed to be addressed was undeniable. IIRC, in the immediate run-up to the 2016 referendum, population growth in the UK was running at about 500,000 per year - of which, around 450,000 was within England. Fully half of this increase was directly attributable to net international immigration, and I would venture to guess that a decent chunk of the other half - natural growth caused by births outstripping deaths - was also the result of immigration, because of the much lower age profile/higher fertility rate of inward immigrants, relative to the general population.
Simply put, many people in England - which is unwilling or unable to construct the extra housing and associated infrastructure to cope even with the existing population - revolted at the notion of being made to accommodate an extra city the size of Leicester every twelve months - because that's basically what freedom of movement meant to a lot of people. So, they voted not to have so many people coming in. Which is logical.0 -
That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .MarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
ad infinitum?MarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
I think it peaked at about a third. I remember giving a pensions speech once and starting with the thought that if I wasn't interesting and anyone felt the hour wasted, they would at least have twenty minutes cashback by way of longer life expectancy by the time I sat downjustin124 said:
That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .MarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
Black_Rook said:
difficult to fault that, whatever your starting positionTheuniondivvie said:Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.
Although there are concerns about disproportionate investment in London (largely the result of the enormous cost of Crossrail,) the main issue is nothing to do with the city itself per se - it's the disproportionate concentration of power and influence there. London, as well as Westminster, has become a byword for several ills. A political elite that has too much power concentrated in its hands, and which is too venal and/or incompetent to be trusted to exercise it correctly. A media and journalistic elite with (at least until the shock of the 2016 referendum) little affinity with or interest in people outside the M25. A financial centre full of fabulously wealthy people and corporate entities who make easy fortunes, often off the backs of ordinary people, and yet pay little or no tax.
We can all argue until we're blue in the face about to what extent these perceptions are actually true, but I would argue that they are widely held and not entirely without foundation in any of the three cases.
As far as immigration is concerned, it's understandable why May has prioritised getting some control back over the borders, given that it was so obviously a key factor in the Leave vote. This is also understandable. Again, one can debate the extent to which people were well-informed or otherwise about the issue, and what their motivations were if indeed it did persuade them to vote to Leave, but the fact that there was a problem that needed to be addressed was undeniable. IIRC, in the immediate run-up to the 2016 referendum, population growth in the UK was running at about 500,000 per year - of which, around 450,000 was within England. Fully half of this increase was directly attributable to net international immigration, and I would venture to guess that a decent chunk of the other half - natural growth caused by births outstripping deaths - was also the result of immigration, because of the much lower age profile/higher fertility rate of inward immigrants, relative to the general population.
Simply put, many people in England - which is unwilling or unable to construct the extra housing and associated infrastructure to cope even with the existing population - revolted at the notion of being made to accommodate an extra city the size of Leicester every twelve months - because that's basically what freedom of movement meant to a lot of people. So, they voted not to have so many people coming in. Which is logical.0 -
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
In such an event we Jocks would certainly take the lack of whinging and stoicism of English Leavers as a reproach.HYUFD said:
Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalismBenpointer said:
Thank goodness for the Union then.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
Overwhelming only in the context of recent ties and majorities of 1 that is.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
I can’t see revoke happening at the end of the week, I doubt that would get through the Commons .
The chances increase though if it’s a delayed no deal . So let’s say the EU said no to an extension but delayed the exit by a few weeks . This would give more time for problems to arise, at that point MPs might be more willing to revoke.
The betrayal voices would be drowned out by the public saying enough , just stop the damn thing !
I still think it’s highly unlikely the EU will say no to an extension .0 -
That's May Mark 2 a couple of years backIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Yes, I hope so too. It seems unlikely, though.DavidL said:What I would like to see is:
1. The MV passing in the early part of this week.
2. It being agreed that we will leave on 22nd May at the EU summit.
3. May resigning by Friday (staying on as caretaker)
4. Parliament getting on with the passing of all required legislation and SIs.
5. A GE in about September so we can have a government again.
It's not impossible but I don't particularly fancy my chances.0 -
But with personality and influencing skills. A very different person.Alanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
It's puzzling. Life expectancy among men of all classes, and women of above median incomes is rising. Among women of below median incomes, it's falling. Overall, women still live longer than men, but the gap is reducing.justin124 said:
That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .MarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....0 -
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Would would you like to see as PM Alan?Alanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
She has no personality, cant persuade without sounding lecturing and prissy and has a track record of doing very little. HIP was beyond her, God knows how she'd manage a country,Benpointer said:
But with personality and influencing skills. A very different person.Alanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/11146228422582312980 -
Shes wooden, she could have a walk on part in ThunderbirdsIanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
For the same reason, I've not quite given up Hammond on the government side. For most voters, and probably most Conservative MPs, there is more to life than Brexit and the last thing they will want is some ideologue dedicated to opening it up again.IanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
tbh its very poor pickings atm. Id sooner see Corbyn than Boris, it's that bad, Nobody in any of the parties stand out, I can only hope that somewhere on the back benches there's someone with a bit of gumption. We should ban anyone from Eton or Oxford as they only fk things up.Benpointer said:
Would would you like to see as PM Alan?Alanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
Thats a nihilistic post, but I'm afraid its how it seems atm. Sadly I dont think I'm on my own on this either.
0 -
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/11146228422582312980 -
Surely conference resolutions and manifestos are indications (not guarantees) of what a party would like to do if it had a solid majority? Why are so many people expecting them to be upheld in a hung parliament that is particularly divided? Shouldn't we welcome those looking to compromise and therefore do something different to their indicated preferred option?DavidL said:
Err, pass.Cyclefree said:Let me get this right: Labour - whose conference policy is to go for a second referendum - is refusing to push for this during these talks. Yes?
So why should anyone believe any of the other conference resolutions they make?
If they all stick to rigid "red lines" how can we make any progress?0 -
#ClarkesCustomsUnionStark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/11146228422582312980 -
Socialism?IanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.0 -
Many Or Continuation of the few you decide YvetteFloater said:
Socialism?IanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
How do you mean decide they both have their merits.
0 -
Ah thanks. But surely you mean Count Jacob Rees Worm?Sean_F said:
I believe he's called Count Worm.JosiasJessop said:
Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it.viewcode said:
Is this it?JosiasJessop said:The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"
Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny.0 -
No indeed. I'm inclined to agree with all your points (which is a first lol!).Alanbrooke said:
tbh its very poor pickings atm. Id sooner see Corbyn than Boris, it's that bad, Nobody in any of the parties stand out, I can only hope that somewhere on the back benches there's someone with a bit of gumption. We should ban anyone from Eton or Oxford as they only fk things up.Benpointer said:
Would would you like to see as PM Alan?Alanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
Thats a nihilistic post, but I'm afraid its how it seems atm. Sadly I dont think I'm on my own on this either.0 -
That would be a shoe-in.bigjohnowls said:
#ClarkesCustomsUnionStark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298
You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.bigjohnowls said:
Many Or Continuation of the few you decide YvetteFloater said:
Socialism?IanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
How do you mean decide they both have their merits.0 -
Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
Those who like the sound of a customs union will call it a customs union :-) Those who don't will call it a customs arrangement, or a jobs-first tariff scheme, or whatever they want.
Edit: This from Wednesday seems prescient.... https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1113432992377077760
0 -
I thought UK life expectancy has now started to fall:Sean_F said:
It's puzzling. Life expectancy among men of all classes, and women of above median incomes is rising. Among women of below median incomes, it's falling. Overall, women still live longer than men, but the gap is reducing.justin124 said:
That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .MarqueeMark said:
People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.HYUFD said:
In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.AlastairMeeks said:
I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/uk-life-expectancy-drops-while-other-western-countries-improve/
Nothing to do with austerity of course.0 -
It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.Stark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/11146228422582312980 -
Considering the alternatives being alive has a lot to commend it at pretty much any time.DougSeal said:
Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.Scott_P said:0 -
Benpointer said:
It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
0 -
Any basis in actual fact for that "Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates" line? Just wondering.ydoethur said:
That would be a shoe-in.bigjohnowls said:
#ClarkesCustomsUnionStark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298
You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.bigjohnowls said:
Many Or Continuation of the few you decide YvetteFloater said:
Socialism?IanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
How do you mean decide they both have their merits.0 -
You say union, I say arrangement.Andrew said:Benpointer said:
It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
Let's call the whole thing off?0 -
Shame they don’t understand the backstop then....Andrew said:Benpointer said:
It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/11148594909801062400 -
Almost certainly yes. Much as with pop music, nostalgia means you remember the exceptional not the sea of turds which it floated on.DavidL said:
Laughed out loud at this. Has there ever been a time when there were so many total incompetents in our politics?Roger said:Leadsom on TV and Patel on radio.
Sometimes May doesn't seem too bad0 -
Suspect they do but why make it easy for May?Mortimer said:
Shame they don’t understand the backstop then....Andrew said:Benpointer said:
It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.
https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/11148594909801062400 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
Given that the irreconcilables like you are largely responsible for that I suggest you look to your own conscience.AlastairMeeks said:
I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.another_richard said:
' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. 'AlastairMeeks said:
It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.Black_Rook said:https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816
These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'
If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.
I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/
And a good afternoon to all PBers.0 -
Entering into long drawn out negotiations with Labour without actually coming to agreement is the best thing Theresa May can do. This means:
- She doesn't trigger her revolting party by agreeing customs unions, second referendums. Labour Party lock etc.
- The European Union can pretend a consensus is being worked on so they can extend indefinitely.
- The rest of us can be grateful that the evil hour is delayed for a few weeks, we are still in the EU and, politics aside, the country still functions more or less normally for the time being.
The one fly in the ointment is the Euro elections. Otherwise we could note the premature blue passports and forget about Brexit for a while - or forever.0 -
Judging from her posts when she was a regular here on PB, I should say that her biggest problem was a tendency to dogmatism, and inflexibility.Alanbrooke said:
Shes wooden, she could have a walk on part in ThunderbirdsIanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
Doubt if we would notice any change then.....
0 -
A couple of weeks ago I was pretty sure Brexit was in the throes of its death rattle.
Not for a moment did I expect Labour to revive it so it could get over the line.
Corbyn will be a hero in the midlands/northern Brexit heartlands.
0 -
lol, you are kind of mixed up on who does the whinging. Would be a great laugh if they did and gave the little Englanders a real poke in the eye, some poetic justice.HYUFD said:
Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalismBenpointer said:
Thank goodness for the Union then.HYUFD said:
If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.Sean_F said:
I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.dixiedean said:
Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.HYUFD said:
Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No DealHYUFD said:
Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain LondonRecidivist said:
I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.HYUFD said:Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
But, I think we knew that already TBH.0 -
What do you suppose nationalisation is?!Benpointer said:
Any basis in actual fact for that "Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates" line? Just wondering.ydoethur said:
That would be a shoe-in.bigjohnowls said:
#ClarkesCustomsUnionStark_Dawning said:
I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?edmundintokyo said:Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.
https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298
You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.bigjohnowls said:
Many Or Continuation of the few you decide YvetteFloater said:
Socialism?IanB2 said:
She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupidAlanbrooke said:
Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa MayIanB2 said:
Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.Sean_F said:
Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.Foxy said:
Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.AlastairMeeks said:
It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
How do you mean decide they both have their merits.0
This discussion has been closed.