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  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    Is there anybody as utterly useless as Shami Chakabarti.....

    I'll raise you Gavin Williamson ..... whose only role in government is to make Chris Grayling look barely competent.

    I fear he fails even at that.
    The Fireplace Salesman has had the Indian Navy round this week running a tape measure over HMS PoW. He's going to need a hell of a day to bury that news if they decide to pull the trigger on that deal.
    Source?
    Wasn't a sell off announced early on then rowed back upon since?
    I think this Telegraph report, according to which we are trying to sell the design rather than the ships, may be creating confusion

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/04/royal-navy-carrier-design-could-sold-india/
    If you believe it's just "the design" I've got an aircraft carrier to sell you. The RN have already said the PoW will "focus" on rotary wing ops in acknowledgement that two CSGs aren't going to be possible. So, as the world's most expensive helicopter carrier, it will be ripe for a realignment of priorities or similar euphemism.

    Having said that the Indian procurement processes make those of the British look like a model of alacrity (their first Hawk deal took 26 years) so it'll probably come to nothing.

    I don’t have your expertise and can only go on what the press reports
    The other plan I've heard on the salt horse rumour mill is to cut the escort fleet to 17 hulls from 19 to crew PoW. That would actually make a lot of sense so we probably won't do it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816

    These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'

    If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.

    I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?

    It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.
    ' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/

    :wink:

    And a good afternoon to all PBers.
    I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,537

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_P said:
    Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.
    There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.
    +1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.

    We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    Dura_Ace said:

    DougSeal said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    DavidL said:

    JackW said:

    Is there anybody as utterly useless as Shami Chakabarti.....

    I'll raise you Gavin Williamson ..... whose only role in government is to make Chris Grayling look barely competent.

    I fear he fails even at that.
    The Fireplace Salesman has had the Indian Navy round this week running a tape measure over HMS PoW. He's going to need a hell of a day to bury that news if they decide to pull the trigger on that deal.
    Source?
    Wasn't a sell off announced early on then rowed back upon since?
    I think this Telegraph report, according to which we are trying to sell the design rather than the ships, may be creating confusion

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/04/04/royal-navy-carrier-design-could-sold-india/
    If you believe it's just "the design" I've got an aircraft carrier to sell you. The RN have already said the PoW will "focus" on rotary wing ops in acknowledgement that two CSGs aren't going to be possible. So, as the world's most expensive helicopter carrier, it will be ripe for a realignment of priorities or similar euphemism.

    Having said that the Indian procurement processes make those of the British look like a model of alacrity (their first Hawk deal took 26 years) so it'll probably come to nothing.

    Flogging HMS POW seems a good bet to me, though the Germans and French might be interested. :)

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany-proposes-european-aircraft-carrier/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    isam said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    One of the most interesting books of recent years IMO.

    https://debalie.nl/agenda/this-is-london-despair-poverty-and-unfulfilled-dreams/

    "According to Ben Judah, Brexit was mainly the result of bad migration policies. In his book ‘This is London’, he shows the reasons why. His epic account of contemporary London is motivated by a desire to show the city in its true (new) colors: as a megacity of global migrants, some of them rich, most of them poor, few of them happy with their fate.
    While he voted remain, he understands why so many people have voted for Brexit. The ideal of free movement of people has led to many problems. According to Judah, the EU is not working in its current form.

    In Judah’s latest book ‘This is London’, we hear stories we have never heard before and meet the people we would not have seen otherwise. This is an account of the city’s variety and its divisions. Judah shows us the capital of the UK through the eyes of its beggars, bankers, coppers, gangsters, careres, sex workers and witch-doctors."

    So migration to London, a strongly Remain city, caused Brexit? Not sure if I see the logic.
    One way it could be logical is that many tens of thousands of people commute to London each day and notice how glad they are they don’t live there/confirm why they moved away.
    Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.

    I can see a case for London taking on a semi mythical quality, a Sodom & Gomorrah simultaneously sucking in all the money while being a beach head for the immigrants about to swamp us all. That sort of thing probably even had currency in the most homogeneously white British Leave constituencies.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Home Office screws up. It's no excuse for starting a riot on an aircraft. Once again, did any of those passengers stop to think about what they were doing, or did they just go charging into a situation that they did not understand like so many bulls in a china shop, quite probably based on the assumption that all deportations are wrong?

    Indeed, the other depressing part of this story is the way in which the mutiny was allowed to succeed. If the passengers had revolted like that for any other reason they'd have been arrested. They should've been arrested, in fact, and dragged off the flight. The immigration officials could then have done their jobs, the rapist would've been got rid of, and it would've acted as a deterrent to further outbursts of temper on aircraft - a very sensitive matter, for obvious reasons.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816

    These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'

    If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.

    I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?

    It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.
    ' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/

    :wink:

    And a good afternoon to all PBers.
    I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.
    despite three years of temper tantrums and caterwauling armageddon I cant see that much difference to 2015. though the world happiness index indicates we are getting happier as a nation.

    http://worldhappiness.report/ed/2019/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_P said:
    Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.
    There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.
    +1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.

    We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.
    The alternative was to let Gadaffi carry out a massacre. The outcome would have been similar.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"

    Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny. :)

    Is this it?

    Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it. ;)
    I believe he's called Count Worm.
    I'm sure some variation of the name could be constructed for Mogg.
    Apopros of nothing really, Boris would presumably find room in his cabinet for JRM.

    Jacob Rees Mogg is an anagram of Bojo's Cream Egg
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"

    Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny. :)

    Is this it?

    Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it. ;)
    I believe he's called Count Worm.
    My new name for Rees-Mogg, with one syllable removed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Foxy said:



    Flogging HMS POW seems a good bet to me, though the Germans and French might be interested. :)

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany-proposes-european-aircraft-carrier/

    The EUS Roy Jenkins would almost certainly be a nuke CATOBAR carrier. The current plan, such as it is, is a French/German crewed hull and rotating French/German/Italian/Spanish air wings. Let's hope the wardroom galley is French operated.

    It's a worthy idea but the politics of it are too tortuous for it ever to happen.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Home Office screws up. It's no excuse for starting a riot on an aircraft. Once again, did any of those passengers stop to think about what they were doing, or did they just go charging into a situation that they did not understand like so many bulls in a china shop, quite probably based on the assumption that all deportations are wrong?

    Indeed, the other depressing part of this story is the way in which the mutiny was allowed to succeed. If the passengers had revolted like that for any other reason they'd have been arrested. They should've been arrested, in fact, and dragged off the flight. The immigration officials could then have done their jobs, the rapist would've been got rid of, and it would've acted as a deterrent to further outbursts of temper on aircraft - a very sensitive matter, for obvious reasons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Hosons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
    Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that the "ordinary passengers" probably *WERE* faux-liberal hard left idiots. Did any of them even think for one second about why the bloke was being chucked out of the country, or did they simply knee-jerk react to a non-white person in handcuffs and assume he was a poor, innocent, defenceless asylum seeker who was being horribly mistreated by the iron-fisted Tory regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Hosons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
    Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.
    I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.

    I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    I presume Momentum and the Rachael Swindon brigade are, this afternoon, furiously denouncing Shami and demanding she be thrown out of the party, now that she has said Jezza wont be leader forever.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    edited April 2019

    DougSeal said:

    Scott_P said:
    Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.
    There is always trouble somewhere in the Middle East or North Africa. Usually caused by us. They probably wish we could have a few more of these Brexit distractions so we stay out of their hair for a while.
    +1. One of the worst decisions IMO was to help overthrow Gaddhafi AFTER we'd congratulated him for voluntarily giving up WMD. Sure, he was a nutty dictator, but the message was clear - stop being a threat, and we'll get rid of you at the first opportunity. Then we stood back and left Libya to collapse into civil war, vaguely encouraging one side without any serious interest.

    We've tried exactly the same thing in Syria. And Iraq, where we overthrew a nasty dictator with no particular plans for the aftermath, and now only take a serious interest when something like ISIS appears.
    To be fair I would prefer General Haftar to Gaddhafi. Iraq was a mess but at least now has a democratic Government and is finally ISIS free. In Syria we never intervened against Assad.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    They are fucked. Boris doing his eBay Trump act with some rank xenophobic nonsense is their only hope.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    And to think that within days this whole damaging humiliating farcical fiasco could be over
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that y regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Hosons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
    Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.
    I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.

    I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
    People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    Thank goodness for the Union then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Boris Johnson as PM would lower Britain’s standing in the world even more than our current failure to make up our minds. He is not well regarded, to put it mildly. He is a joke and to put him in charge of Britain at a time when we need to earn our way in the world, having pretty much torn up our existing model, would be a catastrophic mistake.

    Rubbish, Boris has presence and charisma speaks foreign languages etc. Currently there are only 4 western leaders most of the world have heard of, Trump, Merkel, Macron and Trudeau (May is not a big enough personality or long servingbdnough to be noticeable beyond those interested in politics beyond our shores). Boris would help us punch above our weight again and be the most recognised UK PM since Blair.

    Given half the world is led by populist leaders anyway at the moment, Trump, Bolsonaro, Lopez Obrador, Conte, Netanyahu, Tsipras, Modi, Putin etc, Boris would just reflect the global trend
    Who is he actually popular with? He doesn't cross over. He's not trusted within his party or liked outside of it. His ambition has made him a joke. He's been slobbering over the PM job like a priapic St Bernard for years and it's an embarrassment.
    And yet he retains significant popularity in the party and recognition with the public.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,163
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    Revokers and no dealers have played a very risky game pushing things to the very cliff edge in the hope and expectation they can get what they want without the uncertainty of a referendum or GE. It might work, but it is very reckless of them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that y regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Hosons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
    Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.
    I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.

    I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
    People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?
    No, and it is why scandals such as Mid Staffs are so damaging.

    The key thing for an institution to do after such incidents is to regain trust, and revise procedures openly to prevent repeat.

    I would suggest that the Home Office has failed to convince that it has done so.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,617
    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    IanB2 said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    And to think that within days this whole damaging humiliating farcical fiasco could be over
    Please!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1114831093163859968

    We risk all being blown up in a culture war between two rival camps of dangerous, radicalized idiots - the neo-fascist hard right and (as in the above example) the Marxist, faux-liberal hard left. And it's already well underway.

    Wasn't it ordinary passengers on the plane that stopped the deportation, not "Marxist faux-liberal hard left" or had the latter booked flights specially in anticipation?
    I suggest that y regime?

    Actually, come to think of it, even if they actually knew he was a vile, brutal rapist would they have changed their minds? Quite possibly not.

    The contagion is spreading.
    To be fair, the Home Office and Government have admitted deporting people inappropriately, including recently a new compensation scheme for the Windrush generation deportees.

    Is it any wonder that the average passenger is not so trusting that the right thing is being done?
    We know that the Hosons.
    Have you even considered why so many Britons have lost confidence in a Home Office that even Home Secretaries have described as "not fit for purpose"?

    In a democracy policing is by consent, and requires the authorities to be squeaky clean. This unfortunate incident illustrates just how little faith in the authorities is left. Real Conservatives should consider whether their attacks on MPs, Police, Judges and other "enemies of the people" etc are undermining the fabric of civil society.
    Im struggling to think of one democracy where the police are squeaky clean, perhaps you can help.
    I use police in a wider meaning than just the Constabulary. Certainly there are instances everywhere in the world of bad behaviour.

    I am sure that as an Ulsterman you might be able to recall some difficulties when a significant minority of the population loses faith in the nature of law enforcement.
    People are more likely to die from the bad behaviour of doctors than the police, is the NHS squeaky clean ?
    No, and it is why scandals such as Mid Staffs are so damaging.

    The key thing for an institution to do after such incidents is to regain trust, and revise procedures openly to prevent repeat.

    I would suggest that the Home Office has failed to convince that it has done so.
    So if we cant get the NHS squeaky clkean why do you think well get the police squeaky clean ?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    I think you are right. But I have a feeling if the backup from the Celts and Picts wasn't there, there would be a majority to revoke amongst the Saxon MPs as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    Thank goodness for the Union then.
    Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalism
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,491
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Boris Johnson as PM would lower Britain’s standing in the world even more than our current failure to make up our minds. He is not well regarded, to put it mildly. He is a joke and to put him in charge of Britain at a time when we need to earn our way in the world, having pretty much torn up our existing model, would be a catastrophic mistake.

    Rubbish, Boris has presence and charisma speaks foreign languages etc. Currently there are only 4 western leaders most of the world have heard of, Trump, Merkel, Macron and Trudeau (May is not a big enough personality or long servingbdnough to be noticeable beyond those interested in politics beyond our shores). Boris would help us punch above our weight again and be the most recognised UK PM since Blair.

    Given half the world is led by populist leaders anyway at the moment, Trump, Bolsonaro, Lopez Obrador, Conte, Netanyahu, Tsipras, Modi, Putin etc, Boris would just reflect the global trend
    Who is he actually popular with? He doesn't cross over. He's not trusted within his party or liked outside of it. His ambition has made him a joke. He's been slobbering over the PM job like a priapic St Bernard for years and it's an embarrassment.
    And yet he retains significant popularity in the party and recognition with the public.
    So does gout.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    The last occasion that EU elections took place with no Local Elections on the same day was in 1999. Turnout was then 24%. Perhaps we can expect something similar next month.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    It has stalled a bit but yes the average voter can expect to live a further 17 years once they reach 65, that is a lot of voters and more in Tory leaning areas
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    More recently that has stopped, with even some suggestions of a reversal. Our parents' lifestyle was in many respects more healthy than our children's, smoking aside
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Nice to see @Foxy defending vigilante behaviour. I thought it was only mad Brexiteers who wanted civil disobedience.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,167
    edited April 2019

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    I think you are right. But I have a feeling if the backup from the Celts and Picts wasn't there, there would be a majority to revoke amongst the Saxon MPs as well.
    I don't think so, a clear majority of English MPs are Tory and England voted Leave unlike Scotland and most DUP MPs back No Deal. A majority of Welsh MPs may vote to revoke even though Wales voted Leave as most of them are Labour but that would not be enough to overturn the votes of English MPs and the DUP whereas it would if SNP MPs votes were added too
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,741
    tlg86 said:

    Nice to see @Foxy defending vigilante behaviour. I thought it was only mad Brexiteers who wanted civil disobedience.

    I am not defending it, merely explaining why ordinary passengers might have lost faith in the Home Office.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.

    I can see a case for London taking on a semi mythical quality, a Sodom & Gomorrah simultaneously sucking in all the money while being a beach head for the immigrants about to swamp us all. That sort of thing probably even had currency in the most homogeneously white British Leave constituencies.

    Although there are concerns about disproportionate investment in London (largely the result of the enormous cost of Crossrail,) the main issue is nothing to do with the city itself per se - it's the disproportionate concentration of power and influence there. London, as well as Westminster, has become a byword for several ills. A political elite that has too much power concentrated in its hands, and which is too venal and/or incompetent to be trusted to exercise it correctly. A media and journalistic elite with (at least until the shock of the 2016 referendum) little affinity with or interest in people outside the M25. A financial centre full of fabulously wealthy people and corporate entities who make easy fortunes, often off the backs of ordinary people, and yet pay little or no tax.

    We can all argue until we're blue in the face about to what extent these perceptions are actually true, but I would argue that they are widely held and not entirely without foundation in any of the three cases.

    As far as immigration is concerned, it's understandable why May has prioritised getting some control back over the borders, given that it was so obviously a key factor in the Leave vote. This is also understandable. Again, one can debate the extent to which people were well-informed or otherwise about the issue, and what their motivations were if indeed it did persuade them to vote to Leave, but the fact that there was a problem that needed to be addressed was undeniable. IIRC, in the immediate run-up to the 2016 referendum, population growth in the UK was running at about 500,000 per year - of which, around 450,000 was within England. Fully half of this increase was directly attributable to net international immigration, and I would venture to guess that a decent chunk of the other half - natural growth caused by births outstripping deaths - was also the result of immigration, because of the much lower age profile/higher fertility rate of inward immigrants, relative to the general population.

    Simply put, many people in England - which is unwilling or unable to construct the extra housing and associated infrastructure to cope even with the existing population - revolted at the notion of being made to accommodate an extra city the size of Leicester every twelve months - because that's basically what freedom of movement meant to a lot of people. So, they voted not to have so many people coming in. Which is logical.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    ad infinitum?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .
    I think it peaked at about a third. I remember giving a pensions speech once and starting with the thought that if I wasn't interesting and anyone felt the hour wasted, they would at least have twenty minutes cashback by way of longer life expectancy by the time I sat down
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Polling, which I know you're not keen on, would be the only way to confirm that. In any case Brexit depended on over 17 million votes, not tens of thousands.

    Although there are concerns about disproportionate investment in London (largely the result of the enormous cost of Crossrail,) the main issue is nothing to do with the city itself per se - it's the disproportionate concentration of power and influence there. London, as well as Westminster, has become a byword for several ills. A political elite that has too much power concentrated in its hands, and which is too venal and/or incompetent to be trusted to exercise it correctly. A media and journalistic elite with (at least until the shock of the 2016 referendum) little affinity with or interest in people outside the M25. A financial centre full of fabulously wealthy people and corporate entities who make easy fortunes, often off the backs of ordinary people, and yet pay little or no tax.

    We can all argue until we're blue in the face about to what extent these perceptions are actually true, but I would argue that they are widely held and not entirely without foundation in any of the three cases.

    As far as immigration is concerned, it's understandable why May has prioritised getting some control back over the borders, given that it was so obviously a key factor in the Leave vote. This is also understandable. Again, one can debate the extent to which people were well-informed or otherwise about the issue, and what their motivations were if indeed it did persuade them to vote to Leave, but the fact that there was a problem that needed to be addressed was undeniable. IIRC, in the immediate run-up to the 2016 referendum, population growth in the UK was running at about 500,000 per year - of which, around 450,000 was within England. Fully half of this increase was directly attributable to net international immigration, and I would venture to guess that a decent chunk of the other half - natural growth caused by births outstripping deaths - was also the result of immigration, because of the much lower age profile/higher fertility rate of inward immigrants, relative to the general population.

    Simply put, many people in England - which is unwilling or unable to construct the extra housing and associated infrastructure to cope even with the existing population - revolted at the notion of being made to accommodate an extra city the size of Leicester every twelve months - because that's basically what freedom of movement meant to a lot of people. So, they voted not to have so many people coming in. Which is logical.

    difficult to fault that, whatever your starting position
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,006
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    Thank goodness for the Union then.
    Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalism
    In such an event we Jocks would certainly take the lack of whinging and stoicism of English Leavers as a reproach.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    Overwhelming only in the context of recent ties and majorities of 1 that is.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    I can’t see revoke happening at the end of the week, I doubt that would get through the Commons .

    The chances increase though if it’s a delayed no deal . So let’s say the EU said no to an extension but delayed the exit by a few weeks . This would give more time for problems to arise, at that point MPs might be more willing to revoke.

    The betrayal voices would be drowned out by the public saying enough , just stop the damn thing !

    I still think it’s highly unlikely the EU will say no to an extension .
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    That's May Mark 2 a couple of years back
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,868
    DavidL said:

    What I would like to see is:

    1. The MV passing in the early part of this week.
    2. It being agreed that we will leave on 22nd May at the EU summit.
    3. May resigning by Friday (staying on as caretaker)
    4. Parliament getting on with the passing of all required legislation and SIs.
    5. A GE in about September so we can have a government again.

    It's not impossible but I don't particularly fancy my chances.

    Yes, I hope so too. It seems unlikely, though.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    But with personality and influencing skills. A very different person.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,384
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .
    It's puzzling. Life expectancy among men of all classes, and women of above median incomes is rising. Among women of below median incomes, it's falling. Overall, women still live longer than men, but the gap is reducing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    Would would you like to see as PM Alan?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    But with personality and influencing skills. A very different person.
    She has no personality, cant persuade without sounding lecturing and prissy and has a track record of doing very little. HIP was beyond her, God knows how she'd manage a country,
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,872
    Cyclefree said:

    Let me get this right: Labour - whose conference policy is to go for a second referendum - is refusing to push for this during these talks. Yes?

    So why should anyone believe any of the other conference resolutions they make?

    Err, pass.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Shes wooden, she could have a walk on part in Thunderbirds
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    For the same reason, I've not quite given up Hammond on the government side. For most voters, and probably most Conservative MPs, there is more to life than Brexit and the last thing they will want is some ideologue dedicated to opening it up again.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,413
    edited April 2019

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    Would would you like to see as PM Alan?
    tbh its very poor pickings atm. Id sooner see Corbyn than Boris, it's that bad, Nobody in any of the parties stand out, I can only hope that somewhere on the back benches there's someone with a bit of gumption. We should ban anyone from Eton or Oxford as they only fk things up.

    Thats a nihilistic post, but I'm afraid its how it seems atm. Sadly I dont think I'm on my own on this either.

  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,855
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Let me get this right: Labour - whose conference policy is to go for a second referendum - is refusing to push for this during these talks. Yes?

    So why should anyone believe any of the other conference resolutions they make?

    Err, pass.
    Surely conference resolutions and manifestos are indications (not guarantees) of what a party would like to do if it had a solid majority? Why are so many people expecting them to be upheld in a hung parliament that is particularly divided? Shouldn't we welcome those looking to compromise and therefore do something different to their indicated preferred option?

    If they all stick to rigid "red lines" how can we make any progress?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
    #ClarkesCustomsUnion
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Socialism?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Socialism?
    Many Or Continuation of the few you decide Yvette

    How do you mean decide they both have their merits.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,716
    Sean_F said:

    viewcode said:

    The Mr Men book: "Mr Silly" includes a worm that wears a top hat, school tie and a monocle, and which says "Quack! Quack!"

    Unfortunately I cannot find an image of it online, but when she reads it to our son, she refers to it as "Rees Mogg". The likeness is uncanny. :)

    Is this it?

    Yep. Thanks for saving me from having to scan it. ;)
    I believe he's called Count Worm.
    Ah thanks. But surely you mean Count Jacob Rees Worm?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    Would would you like to see as PM Alan?
    tbh its very poor pickings atm. Id sooner see Corbyn than Boris, it's that bad, Nobody in any of the parties stand out, I can only hope that somewhere on the back benches there's someone with a bit of gumption. We should ban anyone from Eton or Oxford as they only fk things up.

    Thats a nihilistic post, but I'm afraid its how it seems atm. Sadly I dont think I'm on my own on this either.

    No indeed. I'm inclined to agree with all your points (which is a first lol!).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
    #ClarkesCustomsUnion
    That would be a shoe-in.

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Socialism?
    Many Or Continuation of the few you decide Yvette

    How do you mean decide they both have their merits.

    You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited April 2019


    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?


    Those who like the sound of a customs union will call it a customs union :-) Those who don't will call it a customs arrangement, or a jobs-first tariff scheme, or whatever they want.


    Edit: This from Wednesday seems prescient.... https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1113432992377077760
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    Sean_F said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    In the short term I am not sure that necessarily follows given the huge Tory lead with pensioners, remember Blair even won over 65s in 1997.

    People in better off (principally Tory) areas are still having their life expectency extended. People in poorer areas (principally Labour) are the ones now having their life expectency reduced.

    I'm not sure what the current rate is, but I know recently life expectency was extending 5 months every year....
    That sounds too high - it implies that life expectancy was extending at the rate of over 4 years a decade. The pattern has been more like 2 years a decade .
    It's puzzling. Life expectancy among men of all classes, and women of above median incomes is rising. Among women of below median incomes, it's falling. Overall, women still live longer than men, but the gap is reducing.
    I thought UK life expectancy has now started to fall:

    https://www.nhs.uk/news/medical-practice/uk-life-expectancy-drops-while-other-western-countries-improve/

    Nothing to do with austerity of course.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,872
    Roger said:

    Leadsom on TV and Patel on radio.

    Sometimes May doesn't seem too bad

    Laughed out loud at this. Has there ever been a time when there were so many total incompetents in our politics?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
    It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,872
    DougSeal said:

    Scott_P said:
    Tripoli could fall to rebel forces within hours, Israel is about to annex the West Bank and we may be in the brink of a global environmental catastrophe. And all we can talk about is the eternal psychodrama of the Tory Party and its bastard offspring, Brexit. What a time to be alive.
    Considering the alternatives being alive has a lot to commend it at pretty much any time.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    ydoethur said:

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
    #ClarkesCustomsUnion
    That would be a shoe-in.

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Socialism?
    Many Or Continuation of the few you decide Yvette

    How do you mean decide they both have their merits.

    You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.
    Any basis in actual fact for that "Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates" line? Just wondering.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,042
    Andrew said:


    It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
    You say union, I say arrangement.

    Let's call the whole thing off?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,127
    Andrew said:


    It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
    Shame they don’t understand the backstop then....
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited April 2019
    DavidL said:

    Roger said:

    Leadsom on TV and Patel on radio.

    Sometimes May doesn't seem too bad

    Laughed out loud at this. Has there ever been a time when there were so many total incompetents in our politics?
    Almost certainly yes. Much as with pop music, nostalgia means you remember the exceptional not the sea of turds which it floated on.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,703
    Mortimer said:

    Andrew said:


    It May-be Jezza Customs Union but let's call it something else.


    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1114859490980106240
    Shame they don’t understand the backstop then....
    Suspect they do but why make it easy for May?
  • NEW THREAD

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,580

    https://twitter.com/annaturley/status/1114826169944354816

    These kinds of stories are now so routine that they pass almost without comment. And yet still 40% of the electorate looked at this man back in 2017 and thought 'Mmmmm... perhaps he might make a good Prime Minister - why not?'

    If and when Corbyn Labour makes it over the finishing line, Britain deserves everything it's got coming to it.

    I really ought to have got some more marketable skills when I was younger and emigrated to Canada, but hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it?

    It’s extraordinary how the most enthusiastic advocates of Brexit are utterly oblivious to the malign effects they are inflicting on the country and seek to scare us with hypotheticals.
    ' ... recession is beckoning with a dark cloak, a skeletal finger and a voice that speaks in block capitals. '

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/06/29/alistair-meeks-on-the-political-and-economic-crises-of-breathtaking-proportions/

    :wink:

    And a good afternoon to all PBers.
    I’d ask every Leaver to examine their conscience and ask themselves if the country is a happier, better governed and more united country than it was three years ago or not, and then ask themselves why they think Brexit is worth it.
    Given that the irreconcilables like you are largely responsible for that I suggest you look to your own conscience.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited April 2019
    Entering into long drawn out negotiations with Labour without actually coming to agreement is the best thing Theresa May can do. This means:

    - She doesn't trigger her revolting party by agreeing customs unions, second referendums. Labour Party lock etc.

    - The European Union can pretend a consensus is being worked on so they can extend indefinitely.

    - The rest of us can be grateful that the evil hour is delayed for a few weeks, we are still in the EU and, politics aside, the country still functions more or less normally for the time being.

    The one fly in the ointment is the Euro elections. Otherwise we could note the premature blue passports and forget about Brexit for a while - or forever.
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Shes wooden, she could have a walk on part in Thunderbirds
    Judging from her posts when she was a regular here on PB, I should say that her biggest problem was a tendency to dogmatism, and inflexibility.


    Doubt if we would notice any change then.....
  • A couple of weeks ago I was pretty sure Brexit was in the throes of its death rattle.

    Not for a moment did I expect Labour to revive it so it could get over the line.

    Corbyn will be a hero in the midlands/northern Brexit heartlands.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,362
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sean_F said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mayor of London Sadiq Khan says Article 50 should now be revoked

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1114852553764814848?s=20

    I thought he had already said it, but if not good that he's on board now.
    Puts pressure on Corbyn and has no cost for Khan in heavily Remain London
    Rebecca Long-Bailey has also said Labour would consider 'very, very strongly' voting to revoke Article 50 if needed to avoid No Deal

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-47845320/labour-might-vote-to-revoke-article-50-to-avoid-no-deal-brexit
    Yep. If it ever came to a straight No Deal/Revoke choice, the HofC would vote only one way. And overwhelmingly too.
    But, I think we knew that already TBH.
    I think the majority would vote to Revoke, but it would be a narrow one.
    If we vote to revoke I predict it will be down to SNP MPs, a majority of English and Welsh and Northern Irish MPs would vote against revoking Article 50 even if it means No Deal.
    Thank goodness for the Union then.
    Yes would be ironic if after all the Scottish whinging over Brexit it was their MPs votes along with most Labour and LD and TIG MPs that cancelled Brexit though it could inflame English nationalism
    lol, you are kind of mixed up on who does the whinging. Would be a great laugh if they did and gave the little Englanders a real poke in the eye, some poetic justice.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Trying to keep up, it seems like TMay agreed to a customs union but wants to call it something else in the hope that the ERG won't notice it's a customs union, and Labour leaked this maneuver to the Mail on Sunday? I'm pretty sure the ERG don't read the Mail on Sunday so it should all work out ok.

    https://twitter.com/MoS_Politics/status/1114622842258231298

    I wonder what they're going to call it instead. Perhaps the new name should pay tribute to one of its progenitors: 'the Cor-stoms Union'?
    #ClarkesCustomsUnion
    That would be a shoe-in.

    Floater said:

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Foxy said:

    Moving from 47 to 51 in two years suggests that not only are the youngsters not turning blue with age, they are converting their elders.

    It is hard to ignore the Brexit factor in such a seachange.
    Yet, Labour is still viewed as being worse than a government which is moribund.
    Unlike 2017 a lot of people have by now had enough of political ideology and dogma. someone passibly competent and boring like Cooper could now do very well.
    Cooper is simply Labour's Theresa May
    She may be boring but more human than May. She appears more competent. And won't come to office promising to implement something stupid
    Socialism?
    Many Or Continuation of the few you decide Yvette

    How do you mean decide they both have their merits.

    You're right. She's got to ditch Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates, and go with proper redistributive policies.
    Any basis in actual fact for that "Corbyn's policy of stealing everything for his mates" line? Just wondering.
    What do you suppose nationalisation is?!
This discussion has been closed.