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They are the HM's Official Opposition tbf.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Labour have just said they are opposed and do not even know what they are opposing !!!!!eek said:
It's a vote to change standing orders - if that vote wins the Meaningful vote can take place otherwise it fails without any vote..Big_G_NorthWales said:
I cannot see Bercow allowing thatnico67 said:So they’re going to have a vote on whether to have another meaningful vote ! Lmao !
Let's not forget the Tories once opposed the establishment of the NHS party on the basis that they did not know what they were voting for.0 -
Richard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see.
A lot are just signalling, knowing the vote wasn't in doubt.
Of course, plenty are nutters.
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I find this line of argument ("MPs should just approve the withdrawal agreement, then they can argue it out about the future relationship afterwards") so bizarre. The fact that there's so little clarity about what comes at the end of the process, no binding guarantees that MPs can avoid what they see as the worst-case scenarios, is part of the problem. Why would they set off an irreversible process before they got those guarantees?nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
I bought a new phone the other day; I wouldn't have been impressed if I was told I had to cough up the money and tie myself into a 2-year contract first, and that we could then "argue it out" about what phone I'd actually get afterwards.0 -
The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.0 -
Brexitis.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
History will surely be kinder to TMay I reckon when the sheer impossibility of the people she had to deal with and the numbers of them in her own party (hence the failed election to dilute them). Making an enemy of the near-immaculate Chancellor was perhaps less wise.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
I think there are definitely strong political motivations to Labour's opposition. But not wanting to vote for the WA on its own is actually perfectly consistent with wanting modifications to the PD to soften Brexit. If the WA got through on its own, suddenly the DUP and ERG would get on-side for whatever May wanted to do with the PD, so getting a customs union (or whatever) added would be pretty much impossible.Pulpstar said:
The DUP and ERG true believers ARE opposed to the WA though. Labour aren't but they want Corbyn's Customs Union added on to the WA and will oppose a WA as it is a "blind Brexit" (Their words, not mine)nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
However, thinking that through is a little complex, so from a political standpoint it'd probably be effective to embarrass them by pointing out that they claim they only want changes to the PD but are actually voting down the WA. That might have worked as a tactic a couple months ago (not necessarily to win votes, but as a weapon to use against Labour in general), though I now think it's gotten too late.0 -
Which is the accepted orthodoxy. And I think it's probably right in which case the backstop must be extended. But they are also politicians.malcolmg said:
They do not think that way and are fixated on their ancient cause, they will not dump their cause for any gain , they are not like the Westminster Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. Rightly or wrongly they have their principles and stick to them unlike the cretinous greedy grasping unprincipled lying cheating toerags at Westminster ( SNP excluded ).TOPPING said:
Well they are politicians and politicians generally consider issues in the round in order to gain greatest overall advantage. At some point the DUP may twig that they are at a maximum of influence, especially if the HoC finds some way through. Support TM's deal and they sail on as kingmakers. Blow it for her, and they lose that and much else besides for the people they purport to represent in NI.Pulpstar said:
The DUP aren't about to have any bluff called. Because remarkably enough, they aren't actually bluffing.Stereotomy said:
Only Labour, surely? The DUP are opposed to the WA itselfScott_P said:
I still think some kind of whole-UK backstop would bring them on board but then as @Richard_Nabavi has pointed out the mechanics are working against everything apart from May's deal atm.0 -
How's the man crush on Johnny Mercer? Has he broken your heart?TheScreamingEagles said:
Told you she had piss poor judgment.Scrapheap_as_was said:
That's a blow... what's Tracey Crouch doing on there!!! Shakes head....Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party0 -
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
Because the process isn’t irreversible . They can still vote against the future framework which then stops ratification .Danny565 said:
I find this line of argument ("MPs should just approve the withdrawal agreement, then they can argue it out about the future relationship afterwards") so bizarre. The fact that there's so little clarity about what comes at the end of the process, no binding guarantees that MPs can avoid what they see as the worst-case scenarios, is part of the problem. Why would they set off an irreversible process before they got those guarantees?nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
I bought a new phone the other day; I wouldn't have been impressed if I was told I had to cough up the money and tie myself into a 2-year contract first, and that we could then "argue it out" about what phone I'd actually get afterwards.
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Although to be fair that uncertainty is the inevitable consequence of the EU refusing point-blank to hold substantive negotiations about the final relationship until after we've left. So there's no way round it.Danny565 said:
I find this line of argument ("MPs should just approve the withdrawal agreement, then they can argue it out about the future relationship afterwards") so bizarre. The fact that there's so little clarity about what comes at the end of the process, no binding guarantees that MPs can avoid what they see as the worst-case scenarios, is part of the problem. Why would they set off an irreversible process before they got those guarantees?nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
I bought a new phone the other day; I wouldn't have been impressed if I was told I had to cough up the money and tie myself into a 2-year contract first, and that we could then "argue it out" about what phone I'd actually get afterwards.0 -
Here are the "reasons" parties will vote against the WA solelynico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
DUP & Hardcore ERG - Actually properly oppose it including the backstop
Labour - "Blind Brexit"
SNP - "Won't pass a 'devastating' Tory Brexit, unless 'ratified' by the people"
TIG - "Won't pass Brexit unless 'ratified' by the people"0 -
Have you only just spotted that nugget?HYUFD said:
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
It doesn’t say at the same time . The EU only want the WA voted through by tomorrow .williamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
What's that got to do with anything? This wasn't a vote about whether the extension should take place, it was about ensuring that the short extension which is already irrevocable is correctly reflected in UK law.HYUFD said:
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
Well, it's a Muslim SultanateTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
I never liked him in the first place.MarqueeMark said:
How's the man crush on Johnny Mercer? Has he broken your heart?TheScreamingEagles said:
Told you she had piss poor judgment.Scrapheap_as_was said:
That's a blow... what's Tracey Crouch doing on there!!! Shakes head....Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
It is fake news to say I had a man crush on Johnny Mercer.
Should have remembered Tory MPs with the surname Mercer are 🔔 ends.
Cf the disgraced Patrick Mercer.0 -
As Celebrity Hunted proved Johnny Mercer already has his own man crush on AJ Pritchard anywayMarqueeMark said:
How's the man crush on Johnny Mercer? Has he broken your heart?TheScreamingEagles said:
Told you she had piss poor judgment.Scrapheap_as_was said:
That's a blow... what's Tracey Crouch doing on there!!! Shakes head....Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party0 -
They want a stable majority to ensure the legislation can get passed which that wouldn't provide. If there is to be a No Deal exit, they want it to be sooner rather than later.nico67 said:
It doesn’t say at the same time . The EU only want the WA voted through by tomorrow .williamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
MEPs accidentally vote wrong way on copyright law
Shortly after vote on amendments, 13 MEPs asked for vote to be recorded differently
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/mar/27/mep-errors-mean-european-copyright-law-may-not-have-passed
Apparently the vote order was changed at the very last minute and a number of MEP didn't see it.0 -
The natural reading of that would be *both* the WA and the PD have been approved. Not that it is a single resolution. No court would throw it out on that sort of legal parsingwilliamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
Which still required changing the March 29th Brexit date, it was a clear vote against any future extensions of Article 50Richard_Nabavi said:
What's that got to do with anything? This wasn't a vote about whether the extension should take place, it was about ensuring that the short extension which is already irrevocable is correctly reflected in UK law.HYUFD said:
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
Perhaps we could use this as inspiration for passing MV3:
https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/11112375517157662720 -
And it is a measure of how far our politics has fallen that the idea of MPs holding fast to fundamental principles is seen as so outlandish. Surely this is (or should be) what motivates people to go into politics in the first place?malcolmg said:
They do not think that way and are fixated on their ancient cause, they will not dump their cause for any gain , they are not like the Westminster Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. Rightly or wrongly they have their principles and stick to them unlike the cretinous greedy grasping unprincipled lying cheating toerags at Westminster ( SNP excluded ).TOPPING said:
Well they are politicians and politicians generally consider issues in the round in order to gain greatest overall advantage. At some point the DUP may twig that they are at a maximum of influence, especially if the HoC finds some way through. Support TM's deal and they sail on as kingmakers. Blow it for her, and they lose that and much else besides for the people they purport to represent in NI.Pulpstar said:
The DUP aren't about to have any bluff called. Because remarkably enough, they aren't actually bluffing.Stereotomy said:
Only Labour, surely? The DUP are opposed to the WA itselfScott_P said:
I still think some kind of whole-UK backstop would bring them on board but then as @Richard_Nabavi has pointed out the mechanics are working against everything apart from May's deal atm.0 -
Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.0
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The 29th March deadline got moved, and remainers don't really feel as if they have the fire to their feet right now with regards to "No deal" being a possibility, because there is a massive Commons majority against it. The fact it isn't entirely up to them and will require unanimous EU27 consent for further extension seems to be passing them by.nico67 said:
It doesn’t say at the same time . The EU only want the WA voted through by tomorrow .williamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?Richard_Nabavi said:
Although to be fair that uncertainty is the inevitable consequence of the EU refusing point-blank to hold substantive negotiations about the final relationship until after we've left. So there's no way round it.Danny565 said:
I find this line of argument ("MPs should just approve the withdrawal agreement, then they can argue it out about the future relationship afterwards") so bizarre. The fact that there's so little clarity about what comes at the end of the process, no binding guarantees that MPs can avoid what they see as the worst-case scenarios, is part of the problem. Why would they set off an irreversible process before they got those guarantees?nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
I bought a new phone the other day; I wouldn't have been impressed if I was told I had to cough up the money and tie myself into a 2-year contract first, and that we could then "argue it out" about what phone I'd actually get afterwards.0 -
Tusk asked the EU Parliament to support the UK contesting the EU elections if the Commons votes for that over No Deal yesterdaywilliamglenn said:
They want a stable majority to ensure the legislation can get passed which that wouldn't provide. If there is to be a No Deal exit, they want it to be sooner rather than later.nico67 said:
It doesn’t say at the same time . The EU only want the WA voted through by tomorrow .williamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
It is explicit that ratification depends on both though, so even if you you approve the WA in isolation, it wouldn't take No Deal or No Brexit off the table.Charles said:
The natural reading of that would be *both* the WA and the PD have been approved. Not that it is a single resolution. No court would throw it out on that sort of legal parsingwilliamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
The DUP have just found their price for the WA....TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Yes, but it's a different scenario if the UK asks for a long extension.HYUFD said:
Tusk asked the EU Parliament to support the UK contesting the EU elections if the Commons votes for that over No Deal yesterdaywilliamglenn said:
They want a stable majority to ensure the legislation can get passed which that wouldn't provide. If there is to be a No Deal exit, they want it to be sooner rather than later.nico67 said:
It doesn’t say at the same time . The EU only want the WA voted through by tomorrow .williamglenn said:
I'm not so sure you can split them.nico67 said:The WA and future framework do not have to be approved in the same vote .
Both can be voted on at different times . As long as both pass that counts as ratification . There’s no danger in just approving the WA first.
Because you can still vote against the future framework later.
(1) The withdrawal agreement may be ratified only if—
(b) the negotiated withdrawal agreement and the framework for the future relationship have been approved by a resolution of the House of Commons on a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown.0 -
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?0 -
TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Yes, what we should have done in hindsight was just accept immediately that there's be an unlimited backstop and move on.Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?
Also in foresight. I have no idea why so many people thought the EU would budge on this.0 -
Is there some special signal they should have given to indicate that they weren't bluffing?Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?0 -
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
-
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[Sunil whistles innocently]TheScreamingEagles said:
I never liked him in the first place.MarqueeMark said:
How's the man crush on Johnny Mercer? Has he broken your heart?
It is fake news to say I had a man crush on Johnny Mercer.
Should have remembered Tory MPs with the surname Mercer are 🔔 ends.
Cf the disgraced Patrick Mercer.
TheScreamingEagles Posts: 73,455
November 2017 edited November 2017
I've always said Johnny Mercer is awesome, more proof.
Theresa May is jeopardising the 'integrity and credibility' of our party, senior MP says in blistering attack.
Johnny Mercer has been to war and can recognise chaos when he sees it. The Conservative MP, tipped as a future leader, believes a state of ‘anarchy’ is in danger of engulfing his party.
In an interview with the Telegraph today, the former Army captain, who served with distinction in Afghanistan, fires a warning shot in Theresa May’s direction that she needs to urgently get a grip on a ‘depressing’ series of events. If she doesn’t, he says, the nation will be wrecked by the “existential threat’ posed by the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street and John McDonnell living next door.
Mr Mercer’s comments will fuel the crisis overwhelming Mrs May. The disastrous election, the resignation within a week of two Cabinet ministers and the ongoing Westminster sex scandal has led Mr Mercer to conclude that Mrs May’s premiership has reached a ‘critical point’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/12/theresa-may-jeopardising-integrity-credibility-party-senior/
http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/post/quote/5651/Comment_17705630 -
They shouldn't have had that position in the first place. It makes zero sense and has been a significant factor in bringing us, and therefore them, into the chaotic and dangerous territory we find ourselves in.williamglenn said:
Is there some special signal they should have given to indicate that they weren't bluffing?Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?0 -
I don't agree. TM steered the brexit process into a cul-de-sac and has refused to use either the brakes or reverse gear. Looking back in 10 years time, she'll be considered as the wrong leader for brexit, and that she made some decisions which lead to this current constitutional crisis.Scrapheap_as_was said:
History will surely be kinder to TMay I reckon when the sheer impossibility of the people she had to deal with and the numbers of them in her own party (hence the failed election to dilute them). Making an enemy of the near-immaculate Chancellor was perhaps less wise.Richard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.0 -
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Cabinet don't know what tomorrow's vote will be on. But they have until 5pm.
0 -
Well, I guess that depends what's meant by "voting for the Withdrawal Agreement". If it meant putting the specific elements of the WDA on the UK statute book (the divorce bill/backstop/EU citizens' rights) ready to be automatically activated if/when we actually left, then yeah I could see that passing. I'd probably vote for that myself if I was an MP. But I wouldn't be dumb enough to actually *effect* leaving the EU until I had some guarantees about what the end result would be - so we'd still be looking at a long Article 50 extension to negotiate the future relationship.nico67 said:
Because the process isn’t irreversible . They can still vote against the future framework which then stops ratification .Danny565 said:
I find this line of argument ("MPs should just approve the withdrawal agreement, then they can argue it out about the future relationship afterwards") so bizarre. The fact that there's so little clarity about what comes at the end of the process, no binding guarantees that MPs can avoid what they see as the worst-case scenarios, is part of the problem. Why would they set off an irreversible process before they got those guarantees?nico67 said:This is quite interesting . Just voting on the WA.
Because the point of contention is the future relationship . Any deal has to have the WA .
MPs need to wake up to reality .
I bought a new phone the other day; I wouldn't have been impressed if I was told I had to cough up the money and tie myself into a 2-year contract first, and that we could then "argue it out" about what phone I'd actually get afterwards.0 -
I feel like a lot of politicians and politicos- especially Mayites at the moment, but certainly not only them- are like Kim Stanley Robinson's Frank Chalmers. So obsessed with the grubby process of politics- the negotiation, the bluffing, the compromise, the triangulation, the secrecy, the misdirection, and so on- that they lose sight of the big picture. They know the means, but not the end.anothernick said:
And it is a measure of how far our politics has fallen that the idea of MPs holding fast to fundamental principles is seen as so outlandish. Surely this is (or should be) what motivates people to go into politics in the first place?malcolmg said:
They do not think that way and are fixated on their ancient cause, they will not dump their cause for any gain , they are not like the Westminster Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. Rightly or wrongly they have their principles and stick to them unlike the cretinous greedy grasping unprincipled lying cheating toerags at Westminster ( SNP excluded ).TOPPING said:
Well they are politicians and politicians generally consider issues in the round in order to gain greatest overall advantage. At some point the DUP may twig that they are at a maximum of influence, especially if the HoC finds some way through. Support TM's deal and they sail on as kingmakers. Blow it for her, and they lose that and much else besides for the people they purport to represent in NI.Pulpstar said:
The DUP aren't about to have any bluff called. Because remarkably enough, they aren't actually bluffing.Stereotomy said:
Only Labour, surely? The DUP are opposed to the WA itselfScott_P said:
I still think some kind of whole-UK backstop would bring them on board but then as @Richard_Nabavi has pointed out the mechanics are working against everything apart from May's deal atm.
And they end up in this strange mindset where the people who should be most predictable, the people who have simple core principles which they state openly and stick to unerringly, are the ones they misjudge most often.0 -
Yep.williamglenn said:
It is explicit that ratification depends on both though, so even if you you approve the WA in isolation, it wouldn't take No Deal or No Brexit off the table.
Still, would be progress of a sort, and the opposition for a PD vote would be quite a different subset.
0 -
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
No. You'll just have to wet your pants and clean up the mess when we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
No it makes perfect sense. As we have seen with the passion around the backstop, there needs to be defined terms under which negotiations are conducted. Otherwise both sides are in limbo and could be tempted to act in bad faith.Richard_Nabavi said:
They shouldn't have had that position in the first place. It makes zero sense and has been a significant factor in bringing us, and therefore them, into the chaotic and dangerous territory we find ourselves in.williamglenn said:
Is there some special signal they should have given to indicate that they weren't bluffing?Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?0 -
It is the will of the people that Rochdale Pioneers pees his pants.eristdoof said:
No. You'll just have to wet your pants and clean up the mess when we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Vote to approval the withdrawal agreement only and assent to a political declaration recommending to the Queen that Arlene Foster and Diane Dodds be made Dames of the British Empire and Nigel Dodds and Sammy Wilson be knighted?rottenborough said:Cabinet don't know what tomorrow's vote will be on. But they have until 5pm.
0 -
They don't? I'm amazed. Having failed to win over the ERG. Having failed to win over the DUP. Having failed this morning to persuade the Speaker that voting on some/all of this is definitely substantially different to last time we voted on all of this. After all that - they don't know what they are proposing?rottenborough said:Cabinet don't know what tomorrow's vote will be on. But they have until 5pm.
Shocked, I am, shocked.
And yes Mr Topping. Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa0 -
LOL with no disrespect to Edinburgh but what to do with the Rough Guide to Dusseldorf and the lederhosen bought for the beer festival there? I don't think they allow lederhosen in The New Club, do they?Alanbrooke said:
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Jenkin on BBC PL was adamant he would vote down the deal, again, but for someone who is usually extremely vocal and aggressive seemed to me remarkably subdued, almost downcast.RochdalePioneers said:
They don't? I'm amazed. Having failed to win over the ERG. Having failed to win over the DUP. Having failed this morning to persuade the Speaker that voting on some/all of this is definitely substantially different to last time we voted on all of this. After all that - they don't know what they are proposing?rottenborough said:Cabinet don't know what tomorrow's vote will be on. But they have until 5pm.
Shocked, I am, shocked.
And yes Mr Topping. Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa0 -
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If somebody never folds, they're a bad poker player. If I fail to notice that and I keep bluffing against them, I'm a bad poker player.Richard_Nabavi said:
They shouldn't have had that position in the first place. It makes zero sense and has been a significant factor in bringing us, and therefore them, into the chaotic and dangerous territory we find ourselves in.williamglenn said:
Is there some special signal they should have given to indicate that they weren't bluffing?Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?0 -
There will be more rejoicing in heaven...RochdalePioneers said:
They don't? I'm amazed. Having failed to win over the ERG. Having failed to win over the DUP. Having failed this morning to persuade the Speaker that voting on some/all of this is definitely substantially different to last time we voted on all of this. After all that - they don't know what they are proposing?rottenborough said:Cabinet don't know what tomorrow's vote will be on. But they have until 5pm.
Shocked, I am, shocked.
And yes Mr Topping. Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa0 -
RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.0 -
I'd rather be at the beach than at work, but I'd still be pissed off if the bus driver drove me to the beach when he should be driving me to work.Alanbrooke said:
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Nothing settles matters for all time. I know you are old and so got the chance to vote in the 1975 referendum but no one under the age of 62 had that luxury.MikeSmithson said:
Just like the Brexiteers have overlooked the first referendum which was supposed to settle the matter for all time.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. They have absolutely no interest in democracy, only in staying part of the EU with or without the support of the people.TheAncientMariner said:
If we had a 2nd referendum and if the people confirmed they wished to leave then the Remainers would still obfuscate and try and delay matters.williamglenn said:
It was a great speech.Pulpstar said:
Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
Besides I have always said that once we enact the first referendum people can start campaigning for another one. It is only you EU fanatics who think democracy is a dirty word.0 -
We'll miss it when it's gone.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
We'll have nothing to talk about, other than the Tory leadership, the local elections, Euro elections, when Corbyn stands down, and possibly another General Election. A batch of by-elections. And of course most important of all who will be the next LibDem leader.
It's going to be really quiet on here.0 -
Broughton wanted to vote - and would have been able to as long as the ambulance carrying him was in the grounds of the Palace of Westminster. Callaghan thought this was wrong - and said no. As you say Broughton died a few days later anyway. Had he voted the no confidence motion would not have been lost.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Frank Maguire came to Parliament to "abstain in person"!OldKingCole said:
Wasn't it an Irish Nationalist beimng missing that caused the problem?Sunil_Prasannan said:
40 years ago, it was the Nationalist MPs who were playing silly games. Because of them, Thatcher came to power!Pulpstar said:
The DUP aren't about to have any bluff called. Because remarkably enough, they aren't actually bluffing.Stereotomy said:
Only Labour, surely? The DUP are opposed to the WA itselfScott_P said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_vote_of_no_confidence_in_the_Callaghan_ministry#Irish_Nationalists
But Labour MP Alfred Broughton didn't vote due to ill health, heeding medical advice not to do so. He died a few days later.
One wonders if Broughton might have enjoyed that last trip out of hospital and made a bit of history?
Most of Mr Broughton's former constituency is now represented by Andrea Jenkyns.0 -
Betfair has just suspended its market on 3rd Meaningful Vote to take place before 30/03/19.0
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ROFL LMAO etc.HYUFD said:
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.
Tory members are more insane than their MPs. Who knew?0 -
You fail to recognise that different people have different definitions of what constitutes enacting the 2016 referendum, therefore your attitude legitimises autocracy. The only defensible position for a democrat is that people can oppose anything at any time, even if it is 'the will of the people'.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nothing settles matters for all time. I know you are old and so got the chance to vote in the 1975 referendum but no one under the age of 62 had that luxury.MikeSmithson said:
Just like the Brexiteers have overlooked the first referendum which was supposed to settle the matter for all time.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. They have absolutely no interest in democracy, only in staying part of the EU with or without the support of the people.TheAncientMariner said:
If we had a 2nd referendum and if the people confirmed they wished to leave then the Remainers would still obfuscate and try and delay matters.williamglenn said:
It was a great speech.Pulpstar said:
Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
Besides I have always said that once we enact the first referendum people can start campaigning for another one. It is only you EU fanatics who think democracy is a dirty word.0 -
Markets on result of 3rd Meaningful vote still open.0
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The will of most people who *could/did* express an opinion.Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
That's how democracy works in a binary referendum.
I could have drawn you a bar chart showing people who voted Remain vs those who didn't It would look similar - expect your Remain column would be smaller than my Leave column.0 -
You'd also look a complete dick wearing Lederhosen in a club in Düsseldorf. A Carnival costume is a different matter.TOPPING said:
LOL with no disrespect to Edinburgh but what to do with the Rough Guide to Dusseldorf and the lederhosen bought for the beer festival there? I don't think they allow lederhosen in The New Club, do they?Alanbrooke said:
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
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We all know what happened, David Cameron fed the gremlins after midnightRichard_Nabavi said:What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?
0 -
This is a clear resignation issue for Charlie Falconer.tlg86 said:Perhaps we could use this as inspiration for passing MV3:
https://twitter.com/EuroGuido/status/11112375517157662720 -
And it would look even more dramatic in the 2005 and 2015 general elections.RobinWiggs said:
The will of most people who *could/did* express an opinion.Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
That's how democracy works in a binary referendum.
I could have drawn you a bar chart showing people who voted Remain vs those who didn't It would look similar - expect your Remain column would be smaller than my Leave column.
I take the old fashioned view - if you don't vote you don't count.
Bar those too ill to vote those who don't vote who can do have no reason to complain about the result.
0 -
Agreed.Stereotomy said:
I feel like a lot of politicians and politicos- especially Mayites at the moment, but certainly not only them- are like Kim Stanley Robinson's Frank Chalmers. So obsessed with the grubby process of politics- the negotiation, the bluffing, the compromise, the triangulation, the secrecy, the misdirection, and so on- that they lose sight of the big picture. They know the means, but not the end.anothernick said:
And it is a measure of how far our politics has fallen that the idea of MPs holding fast to fundamental principles is seen as so outlandish. Surely this is (or should be) what motivates people to go into politics in the first place?malcolmg said:
They do not think that way and are fixated on their ancient cause, they will not dump their cause for any gain , they are not like the Westminster Tories, Labour or Lib Dems. Rightly or wrongly they have their principles and stick to them unlike the cretinous greedy grasping unprincipled lying cheating toerags at Westminster ( SNP excluded ).TOPPING said:
Well they are politicians and politicians generally consider issues in the round in order to gain greatest overall advantage. At some point the DUP may twig that they are at a maximum of influence, especially if the HoC finds some way through. Support TM's deal and they sail on as kingmakers. Blow it for her, and they lose that and much else besides for the people they purport to represent in NI.Pulpstar said:
The DUP aren't about to have any bluff called. Because remarkably enough, they aren't actually bluffing.Stereotomy said:
Only Labour, surely? The DUP are opposed to the WA itselfScott_P said:
I still think some kind of whole-UK backstop would bring them on board but then as @Richard_Nabavi has pointed out the mechanics are working against everything apart from May's deal atm.
And they end up in this strange mindset where the people who should be most predictable, the people who have simple core principles which they state openly and stick to unerringly, are the ones they misjudge most often.0 -
Because they have budged already? As No Deal hurtles towards us, suddenly the EU has realised there might not need to be a Hard Border across Ireland, after all...Stereotomy said:
Yes, what we should have done in hindsight was just accept immediately that there's be an unlimited backstop and move on.Richard_Nabavi said:
You're basically right except that it wasn't getting hung up on the border which was the problem, it was that the EU refused to budge (they'd always said they wouldn't budge on this).Stereotomy said:
Wasn't Davis' "row of the summer" about the fact that trade talks would come after we agreed on money and the Irish border? That was still supposed to happen within the A50 period, it's just that we got all hung up on the border and made no progress. Or am I misremembering?
Also in foresight. I have no idea why so many people thought the EU would budge on this.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/03/27/signs-eu-preparing-prevent-hard-border-cutting-ireland-adrift/0 -
It's an absurd position to hold that to include the non voters, when in fact this election had the biggest turnout for twenty five years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
But it makes it easier to do something that most democrats would not have a few years ago believe they would ever do.0 -
Both points are of course true Sunil. But my serious point is that if you want to make a mjaor constitutional change to the country it would probably be wise to set some sort of bar that requires either a 2/3rds - 1/3rd majority or a majority of registered voters voting for the change.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
As a secondary point, were we to end up revoking we hear a lot of talk on here about 'people on the streets', 'riots' etc. and that may happen. But it's worth remembering that 29m voters did not feel strongly anti-EU enough to vote Leave.0 -
Where would you not look a complete dick wearing Lederhosen?eristdoof said:
You'd also look a complete dick wearing Lederhosen in a club in Düsseldorf. A Carnival costume is a different matter.TOPPING said:
LOL with no disrespect to Edinburgh but what to do with the Rough Guide to Dusseldorf and the lederhosen bought for the beer festival there? I don't think they allow lederhosen in The New Club, do they?Alanbrooke said:
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
And Halfon. What other thinking was going on here??Sunil_Prasannan said:
[Sunil whistles innocently]TheScreamingEagles said:
I never liked him in the first place.MarqueeMark said:
How's the man crush on Johnny Mercer? Has he broken your heart?
It is fake news to say I had a man crush on Johnny Mercer.
Should have remembered Tory MPs with the surname Mercer are 🔔 ends.
Cf the disgraced Patrick Mercer.
TheScreamingEagles Posts: 73,455
November 2017 edited November 2017
I've always said Johnny Mercer is awesome, more proof.
Theresa May is jeopardising the 'integrity and credibility' of our party, senior MP says in blistering attack.
Johnny Mercer has been to war and can recognise chaos when he sees it. The Conservative MP, tipped as a future leader, believes a state of ‘anarchy’ is in danger of engulfing his party.
In an interview with the Telegraph today, the former Army captain, who served with distinction in Afghanistan, fires a warning shot in Theresa May’s direction that she needs to urgently get a grip on a ‘depressing’ series of events. If she doesn’t, he says, the nation will be wrecked by the “existential threat’ posed by the prospect of Jeremy Corbyn in Downing Street and John McDonnell living next door.
Mr Mercer’s comments will fuel the crisis overwhelming Mrs May. The disastrous election, the resignation within a week of two Cabinet ministers and the ongoing Westminster sex scandal has led Mr Mercer to conclude that Mrs May’s premiership has reached a ‘critical point’.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/12/theresa-may-jeopardising-integrity-credibility-party-senior/
http://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/post/quote/5651/Comment_17705630 -
I believe you said: "...most of us did ask to come..."RobinWiggs said:
The will of most people who *could/did* express an opinion.Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
That's how democracy works in a binary referendum.
I could have drawn you a bar chart showing people who voted Remain vs those who didn't It would look similar - expect your Remain column would be smaller than my Leave column.0 -
My parents got to vote in the 1975 referendum - they voted on whether we should stay a member of a body (as named on the ballot) paper that was abolished in 1993 and completely ceased to exist legally in 2009.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nothing settles matters for all time. I know you are old and so got the chance to vote in the 1975 referendum but no one under the age of 62 had that luxury.MikeSmithson said:
Just like the Brexiteers have overlooked the first referendum which was supposed to settle the matter for all time.Richard_Tyndall said:
Yep. They have absolutely no interest in democracy, only in staying part of the EU with or without the support of the people.TheAncientMariner said:
If we had a 2nd referendum and if the people confirmed they wished to leave then the Remainers would still obfuscate and try and delay matters.williamglenn said:
It was a great speech.Pulpstar said:
Did Ma Beckett realy get through her speech without giving that particular game away ? If so impressive obfuscation.
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1110947705633849350
Besides I have always said that once we enact the first referendum people can start campaigning for another one. It is only you EU fanatics who think democracy is a dirty word.
Until 2016 we had never had a referendum on membership of the European Union.
And while you can argue voting every 41 years is 'once in a generation' - voting 3 years later is not!0 -
The 93 excludes MPs I thought were barking mad such as Owen Paterson, Daniel Kawczynski and Bill Wiggin. 93 MPs are more barking. Bloody hell.HYUFD said:
Which still required changing the March 29th Brexit date, it was a clear vote against any future extensions of Article 50Richard_Nabavi said:
What's that got to do with anything? This wasn't a vote about whether the extension should take place, it was about ensuring that the short extension which is already irrevocable is correctly reflected in UK law.HYUFD said:
Given a majority of Tory voters prefer No Deal to Remain under a third of MPs voting for No Deal and No extension makes Tory MPs more pro Remain than Tory votersRichard_Nabavi said:
Just completely, off-the-wall mad. That 93 Conservative - Conservative - MPs would defy a three-line whip in order to vote for legal chaos in two days time is something I never thought I'd see. It's the kind of thing one might have expected from a couple of fringe nutjob bearded Marxists in the Labour Party twenty years. Now in this vote the same Marxists and the rest of the Labour Party are the ones acting as responsible MPs. What the hell has happened to the Conservative Party?TheScreamingEagles said:
Disappointed to see Mark Harper and Johnny Mercer in the 93.Richard_Nabavi said:
There's no need to make a list, Hansard has the 93 names here:TheScreamingEagles said:
This morning I made a list of Tory MPs I could not vote for.Scott_P said:
Except like the Tory Party itself, PB Tories are no longer one tribe...DecrepitJohnL said:pb Tories for the past few years: Corbynistas plan mass deselections of Labour MPs; Corbyn will sell out Northern Ireland to his IRA mates.
pb Tories for the past few months: deselect the ERG/Remoaners; get shot of Northern Ireland and Scotland.
It was close to three figures.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-03-27/division/D23CDA5C-4B12-46CF-915D-AA6C93A5DB0E/EUExitDayAmendment?outputType=Party
Less surprised to see most of the usual suspects there.
I think the rural farming vote might have swayed these three MPs. There probably aren't many farming votes in crashing off a cliff.
The organic farmer Guy Watson of Riverford said on R4 months ago that no deal would make his company insolvent within a few weeks. March to May is the time of maximum vegetable imports.0 -
You're first mistake is it wasn't an election; it was a vote to leave the EU. 29m who could have voted to leave didn't.notme2 said:
It's an absurd position to hold that to include the non voters, when in fact this election had the biggest turnout for twenty five years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
But it makes it easier to do something that most democrats would not have a few years ago believe they would ever do.0 -
There is way too much hyperbole about unintended destinations and chaotic consequences.TOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
I think the PM's deal and red lines were exactly what I was expecting when I voted. We were told clearly and repeatedly by both sides during the campaign that:
a) This was a once in a generation decision that would be implemented (ie no best of three votes).
b) A vote to Leave meant leaving:
The political institutions
The Single Market
The Customs Union
The current chaos has nothing to do with the proposed Brexit not being what people voted for.
The current procedural chaos is due to:
a) people choosing willfully to forget how clear the Leave prospectus was in terms of what we would leave and seeking to engineer a completely different outcome.
b) The mistake of including the backstop - although another fallback in the event of no FTA that keeps open borders but with WTO rules is hard to conceive.
c) narrow party political posturing and ERGonaut fundamentalism
I am a pretty moderate one-nation Conservative. I'm not a headbanger. We just need to get on with what was indicated during the campaign.
0 -
This thread will be
OLD
when all PB'ers sign up to May's Deal0 -
IanB2 said:
This thread will be
OLD
when all PB'ers sign up to May's DealMeaningless thread!
0 -
From EU Ref night:
Rochdale Pioneers
I still don't think my lot understand what has happened to them...
Meeks :
I'm going to ration my use of "I told you so" in the coming months and years. But not very tightly.0 -
It was also subject to fraud which would have been sufficient to nullify a general election. Why the ref. wasn't nullified is an interesting question.Benpointer said:
You're first mistake is it wasn't an election; it was a vote to leave the EU. 29m who could have voted to leave didn't.notme2 said:
It's an absurd position to hold that to include the non voters, when in fact this election had the biggest turnout for twenty five years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
But it makes it easier to do something that most democrats would not have a few years ago believe they would ever do.
Heath got it right, i.e. referendums have virtually no place in a representative democracy which is what ours is.
A C Grayling has had some useful suggestions for improving our parliamentary democracy, lecture on Y.tube.0 -
Cough Cough : Morris DancersTOPPING said:
Where would you not look a complete dick wearing Lederhosen?eristdoof said:
You'd also look a complete dick wearing Lederhosen in a club in Düsseldorf. A Carnival costume is a different matter.TOPPING said:
LOL with no disrespect to Edinburgh but what to do with the Rough Guide to Dusseldorf and the lederhosen bought for the beer festival there? I don't think they allow lederhosen in The New Club, do they?Alanbrooke said:
having been to both Edinburgh is preferable by a country mileTOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
0 -
Electoral fraud is a serious matter. Which electoral fraud was that? And what examples do you have of a general election been nullified by such electoral fraud?rural_voter said:
It was also subject to fraud which would have been sufficient to nullify a general election. Why the ref. wasn't nullified is an interesting question.Benpointer said:
You're first mistake is it wasn't an election; it was a vote to leave the EU. 29m who could have voted to leave didn't.notme2 said:
It's an absurd position to hold that to include the non voters, when in fact this election had the biggest turnout for twenty five years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
But it makes it easier to do something that most democrats would not have a few years ago believe they would ever do.
Heath got it right, i.e. referendums have virtually no place in a representative democracy which is what ours is.
A C Grayling has had some useful suggestions for improving our parliamentary democracy, lecture on Y.tube.0 -
That ship has sailed.RobinWiggs said:
There is way too much hyperbole about unintended destinations and chaotic consequences.TOPPING said:
People got on the plane hoping to go to Dusseldorf only to find out they landed in Edinburgh and you are making them take their holiday there instead.RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
I think the PM's deal and red lines were exactly what I was expecting when I voted. We were told clearly and repeatedly by both sides during the campaign that:
a) This was a once in a generation decision that would be implemented (ie no best of three votes).
b) A vote to Leave meant leaving:
The political institutions
The Single Market
The Customs Union
The current chaos has nothing to do with the proposed Brexit not being what people voted for.
The current procedural chaos is due to:
a) people choosing willfully to forget how clear the Leave prospectus was in terms of what we would leave and seeking to engineer a completely different outcome.
b) The mistake of including the backstop - although another fallback in the event of no FTA that keeps open borders but with WTO rules is hard to conceive.
c) narrow party political posturing and ERGonaut fundamentalism
I am a pretty moderate one-nation Conservative. I'm not a headbanger. We just need to get on with what was indicated during the campaign.
The fact you can describe yourself as a moderate with a straight face speaks volumes about the state of the Tory party nowadays.0 -
Anyone remember those days when Brexit was going to happen?0
-
Decisions are made by those that turn up, and they turned up for this in a way they havent done in decades. A working class revolt.Benpointer said:
You're first mistake is it wasn't an election; it was a vote to leave the EU. 29m who could have voted to leave didn't.notme2 said:
It's an absurd position to hold that to include the non voters, when in fact this election had the biggest turnout for twenty five years.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
But it makes it easier to do something that most democrats would not have a few years ago believe they would ever do.0 -
You mean set the bar so high you make he whole thing pointless?Benpointer said:
Both points are of course true Sunil. But my serious point is that if you want to make a mjaor constitutional change to the country it would probably be wise to set some sort of bar that requires either a 2/3rds - 1/3rd majority or a majority of registered voters voting for the change.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Yes, but:Benpointer said:RobinWiggs said:
Um... actually most of us did ask to come on the trip. Well, most of those who could/did express an opinion.Benpointer said:TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
Indeed. Most of us never asked to come on this trip at all.TOPPING said:
It's your fault sunshine. Hold it 'til we get there.RochdalePioneers said:Brexit. Are we nearly there yet? I want a wee wee.
The will of (some of) the people.
Voted Remain would make a smaller "bar" than Voted Leave
Did not vote Remain would make a larger "bar" than Did not Vote Leave
As a secondary point, were we to end up revoking we hear a lot of talk on here about 'people on the streets', 'riots' etc. and that may happen. But it's worth remembering that 29m voters did not feel strongly anti-EU enough to vote Leave.0
This discussion has been closed.