Nope. We already asked them. Once we have enacted that first instruction we can ask them again. Its called democracy.
So we know what they thought three years ago; an infallible guide to what they want and think now.
Anfd you can't make things true by repeating them. The idea that the public is capable of making up its mind but incapable of changing it is antidemocratic nonsense, which is why you never produce a precedent or rationale for it. You just keep saying it.
Tyndall trots out this line so often, he is basically trolling.
Quite clearly if people have changed their mind (which is an 'if'), it makes no sense to press ahead with something that is no longer wanted.
I do have a little bit of sympathy for Mr Tyndall in this argument. He's right, it would be mildly undemocratic to offer the people a vote on something, promise that "the Government will implement your choice", and then not do so.
I say "mildly" for several reasons. If the question had to be asked at all (which, outside the fevered confines of the Conservative Party it didn't), it shouldn't have been a glib, binary choice for such a nuanced issue. If "the Government" promised something, that Government should have at least stuck around to implement it, rather than calling an unnecessary (but, as it turned out, fairly hilarious) election for a new Government. And most of all, if the referendum had asked the question "Do you want to be fellated by unicorns?" and 52% of people voted yes, we wouldn't freeze up all Government for the next n years until we had found some unicorns willing to fellate everyone.
But on the British 0-10 scale of "undemocratic", this merits about a 2, a 3 at best. The fact that a voter in Orkney & Shetland has three times the say in Westminster of one on the Isle of Wight (33,000 electors for one MP, vs 105,000)? That's undemocratic. The fact that a voter in Buckingham has no say at all? That's undemocratic. The fact that half of Northern Ireland is without representation because their views on the Queen have been deemed unacceptable? That's undemocratic.
The fact that a conservative in an urban area, or a progressive in a rural area, will never have a vote that can in any way change the Government? That's undemocratic.
I see Richard Tyndall's point. I just fail to get remotely worked up about it. If we're talking about what's "undemocratic", let's sort the other stuff out before we get onto the fellating unicorns.
As a response, 'fellating unicorns' definitely beats 'zzzz'.
I would have thought that being fellated by a unicorn would be fraught with hazard. Disembowelment by their horn being a fairly obvious one!
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
From everything I have read, May won't do that. Lets assume MV3 goes down. Lets further assume that (as an example) Common Market 2.0 emerges as the acceptable to parliament compromise. As Liam Fux pointed out, the government does not have to act on that recommendation.
Because what penalty does it face? A motion of contempt? Which means what - they were held in contempt last time and nothing happened. A vote of no confidence? Wouldn't pass with ERG nutters cuddling her tight running down the clock to crash day. A "you must go Prime Minister" deputation from Graham Brady? Armed with what power when the party rules state clearly that he cannot make her go.
If - as seems to be suggested - she has decided that No Deal Brexit is the price worth paying to preserve the Conservative Party, then I do not see how she is stopped. Short of the powers that be having her physically removed on "medical grounds"
If she does then we need a plan b, and we need it quick. Otherwise we have to assume that government policy is no-deal, which would be terrible.
We need seriously to consider the possibility that Theresa has been driven mad by her ERG tormentors and intends to orchestrate No Deal in order to take them down with her.
If your passport has been read, or passport data has been lawfully shared, they already have a digitised image of your face which is used as a biometric in compliance with ICAO standards, as he is in China this has almost certainly happened. The only scary bit is that they clearly don't give a damn about sharing the data within China.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
But that essentially gifts Corbyn the remain vote.
The country voted Leave and if Corbyn wins with the SNP then Corbyn becomes PM and takes over Brexit on a BINO platform while the Tories go into opposition on a hard Brexit ticket probably with Boris as Leader of the Opposition after May resigns
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
What is annoying about the current situation is the way in which the current issues relating to Brexit cannot be bought to a conclusion. The first or at the very most the second meaningful vote on the deal should really have been the end of the matter. The endless delay, procrastination and putting things off is difficult to comprehend, given the enormous stakes involved. It seems so predictable, that there isn't even any point in following the news. Dependent on what happens next, it may even be seen as a profound failure of the current political system, ie the point where confidence in our current system of parliamentary democracy ends.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
Yep. I can see that. Bigger chance of it than most appreciate.
I can also see the WA being uncoupled from the PD and passed - then a post Brexit GE under a new Tory leader with the winner of that GE running with the Future Relationship.
All in all, a GE in 2019 is still IMO a value bet even now at 2.2 (it was 2.8 not so long ago).
If she went, I'd wish her well even thought she's a Tory. Incompetence is no crime, but dishonesty should be. There 's about 400 guilty ones in the HoC.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
From everything I have read, May won't do that. Lets assume MV3 goes down. Lets further assume that (as an example) Common Market 2.0 emerges as the acceptable to parliament compromise. As Liam Fux pointed out, the government does not have to act on that recommendation.
Because what penalty does it face? A motion of contempt? Which means what - they were held in contempt last time and nothing happened. A vote of no confidence? Wouldn't pass with ERG nutters cuddling her tight running down the clock to crash day. A "you must go Prime Minister" deputation from Graham Brady? Armed with what power when the party rules state clearly that he cannot make her go.
If - as seems to be suggested - she has decided that No Deal Brexit is the price worth paying to preserve the Conservative Party, then I do not see how she is stopped. Short of the powers that be having her physically removed on "medical grounds"
In extremis, bring down the govt, form a temporary majority to agree the revocation bill the civil service has already drafted. Or get a long extension if there is time
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
But that essentially gifts Corbyn the remain vote.
The country voted Leave and if Corbyn wins with the SNP then Corbyn becomes PM and takes over Brexit on a BINO platform while the Tories go into opposition on a hard Brexit ticket probably with Boris as Leader of the Opposition after May resigns
I suspect that in that scenario Leavers might be whistling in the wind.
1. You don't have to eligible to vote to sign the petition - simply a UK resident
2. The vast majority of those signing it will be voters for non-Conservative parties already.
I'm not sure 2 is true at all. From my twitter feed it seems to have coursed its way through the previously Tory-voting professional classes to an astonishing degree. People who I would not have imagined signing it have been touting it enthusiastically.
For those that have me pegged as an extreme Remainer, I should point out that I would not sign this petition on principle.
I was amused to see Mark Field come out as being open to revocation. He's clearly noticed that more people in his constituency have signed the petition than voted for him last time.
I signed it. I did so not because I believe in revoking A50 (that would be wrong in principle and in practice), but because I saw it as a way of registering my total disgust at the way in which Brexit has been handled by the Conservative party and for Theresa May's contempt for Parliamentary democracy.
Didn't it bother you that the person who started the petition had such horrendous views re getting hold of guns and killing Theresa May? I know she was probably joking, but as an MP was killed by a nutter not long ago it seemed to be accepted too readily as just a bit of fun
I had no idea. If she is someone who is making pronouncements about killing Theresa May then that is clearly wrong. However, she does not own the petition or any data it generates, so I cannot see any lasting harm my signing it has done.
..but not greatly relevant to the success of her petition. What people have signed makes no reference to her personal background or views.
Yep, particularly because the petition had been around for a whole before it took off so really has little to do with her directly. It's like saying the previous petition that got 4.1 million was tainted or invalid because it was originally started by a Leaver.
Given what constitutes a hate crime nowadays, and how often arguments based on guilt by association are made, I’m surprised it’s so easily brushed off.
If she does then we need a plan b, and we need it quick. Otherwise we have to assume that government policy is no-deal, which would be terrible.
We need seriously to consider the possibility that Theresa has been driven mad by her ERG tormentors and intends to orchestrate No Deal in order to take them down with her.
Or. Possibly, the reason she cleaves so closely to the ERG and DUP is that she is fundamentally more closely aligned to their instincts. She feels at home with them and has sympathy with their aims.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
What is annoying about the current situation is the way in which the current issues relating to Brexit cannot be bought to a conclusion. The first or at the very most the second meaningful vote on the deal should really have been the end of the matter. The endless delay, procrastination and putting things off is difficult to comprehend, given the enormous stakes involved. It seems so predictable, that there isn't even any point in following the news. Dependent on what happens next, it may even be seen as a profound failure of the current political system, ie the point where confidence in our current system of parliamentary democracy ends.
It can if we get a Labour government implementing BINO under Corbyn and a Tory opposition under Boris pushing hard Brexit, that may be the only logical outcome
If your passport has been read, or passport data has been lawfully shared, they already have a digitised image of your face which is used as a biometric in compliance with ICAO standards, as he is in China this has almost certainly happened. The only scary bit is that they clearly don't give a damn about sharing the data within China.
That's my point...the data is now shared with China / Chinese companiesc and of course they make Facebook look principled and hard-nosed when it comes to data sharing.
This is totally standard in China and they already have systems that watch their citizens in this manner.
I bet loads of peoples reaction will be how cool is this, it's like my iPhone face unlock, not the fact your data is likely be shared widely.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
Yep. I can see that. Bigger chance of it than most appreciate.
I can also see the WA being uncoupled from the PD and passed - then a post Brexit GE under a new Tory leader with the winner of that GE running with the Future Relationship.
All in all, a GE in 2019 is still IMO a value bet even now at 2.2 (it was 2.8 not so long ago).
Possible, May prefers a GE on her Deal to No Deal I think.
If she does then we need a plan b, and we need it quick. Otherwise we have to assume that government policy is no-deal, which would be terrible.
We need seriously to consider the possibility that Theresa has been driven mad by her ERG tormentors and intends to orchestrate No Deal in order to take them down with her.
Or. Possibly, the reason she cleaves so closely to the ERG and DUP is that she is fundamentally more closely aligned to their instincts. She feels at home with them and has sympathy with their aims.
No otherwise we would be leaving with No Deal on Friday
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
But that essentially gifts Corbyn the remain vote.
The country voted Leave and if Corbyn wins with the SNP then Corbyn becomes PM and takes over Brexit on a BINO platform while the Tories go into opposition on a hard Brexit ticket probably with Boris as Leader of the Opposition after May resigns
I suspect that in that scenario Leavers might be whistling in the wind.
They would have the Tory Party with them finally though
Just had a look at the BBC site to see if there was anything new and found this: 'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly. The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
The country voted Leave and if Corbyn wins with the SNP then Corbyn becomes PM and takes over Brexit on a BINO platform while the Tories go into opposition on a hard Brexit ticket probably with Boris as Leader of the Opposition after May resigns
If the election is pre-Brexit I think Labour's policy will be negotiate BINO and offer REF2 on whatever BINO deal they come up with.
Tyndall trots out this line so often, he is basically trolling.
Quite clearly if people have changed their mind (which is an 'if'), it makes no sense to press ahead with something that is no longer wanted.
I do have a little bit of sympathy for Mr Tyndall in this argument. He's right, it would be mildly undemocratic to offer the people a vote on something, promise that "the Government will implement your choice", and then not do so.
I say "mildly" for several reasons. If the question had to be asked at all (which, outside the fevered confines of the Conservative Party it didn't), it shouldn't have been a glib, binary choice for such a nuanced issue. If "the Government" promised something, that Government should have at least stuck around to implement it, rather than calling an unnecessary (but, as it turned out, fairly hilarious) election for a new Government. And most of all, if the referendum had asked the question "Do you want to be fellated by unicorns?" and 52% of people voted yes, we wouldn't freeze up all Government for the next n years until we had found some unicorns willing to fellate everyone.
But on the British 0-10 scale of "undemocratic", this merits about a 2, a 3 at best. The fact that a voter in Orkney & Shetland has three times the say in Westminster of one on the Isle of Wight (33,000 electors for one MP, vs 105,000)? That's undemocratic. The fact that a voter in Buckingham has no say at all? That's undemocratic. The fact that half of Northern Ireland is without representation because their views on the Queen have been deemed unacceptable? That's undemocratic.
The fact that a conservative in an urban area, or a progressive in a rural area, will never have a vote that can in any way change the Government? That's undemocratic.
I see Richard Tyndall's point. I just fail to get remotely worked up about it. If we're talking about what's "undemocratic", let's sort the other stuff out before we get onto the fellating unicorns.
As a response, 'fellating unicorns' definitely beats 'zzzz'.
I would have thought that being fellated by a unicorn would be fraught with hazard. Disembowelment by their horn being a fairly obvious one!
Peak PB. We are discussing whether fellating a unicorn is possible and wargaming scenarios to anticipate the damage if we did...
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
Tyndall trots out this line so often, he is basically trolling.
Quite clearly if people have changed their mind (which is an 'if'), it makes no sense to press ahead with something that is no longer wanted.
I do have a little bit of sympathy for Mr Tyndall in this argument. He's right, it would be mildly undemocratic to offer the people a vote on something, promise that "the Government will implement your choice", and then not do so.
I say "mildly" for several reasons. If the question had to be asked at all (which, outside the fevered confines of the Conservative Party it didn't), it shouldn't have been a glib, binary choice for such a nuanced issue. If "the Government" promised something, that Government should have at least stuck around to implement it, rather than calling an unnecessary (but, as it turned out, fairly hilarious) election for a new Government. And most of all, if the referendum had asked the question "Do you want to be fellated by unicorns?" and 52% of people voted yes, we wouldn't freeze up all Government for the next n years until we had found some unicorns willing to fellate everyone.
But on the British 0-10 scale of "undemocratic", this merits about a 2, a 3 at best. The fact that a voter in Orkney & Shetland has three times the say in Westminster of one on the Isle of Wight (33,000 electors for one MP, vs 105,000)? That's undemocratic. The fact that a voter in Buckingham has no say at all? That's undemocratic. The fact that half of Northern Ireland is without representation because their views on the Queen have been deemed unacceptable? That's undemocratic.
The fact that a conservative in an urban area, or a progressive in a rural area, will never have a vote that can in any way change the Government? That's undemocratic.
I see Richard Tyndall's point. I just fail to get remotely worked up about it. If we're talking about what's "undemocratic", let's sort the other stuff out before we get onto the fellating unicorns.
As a response, 'fellating unicorns' definitely beats 'zzzz'.
I would have thought that being fellated by a unicorn would be fraught with hazard. Disembowelment by their horn being a fairly obvious one!
Peak PB. We are discussing whether fellating a unicorn is possible and wargaming scenarios to anticipate the damage if we did...
It's being fellated BY a unicorn, isn't it. Wasn't there a TV show some years ago about fellating a pig?
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
If she does then we need a plan b, and we need it quick. Otherwise we have to assume that government policy is no-deal, which would be terrible.
We need seriously to consider the possibility that Theresa has been driven mad by her ERG tormentors and intends to orchestrate No Deal in order to take them down with her.
Or. Possibly, the reason she cleaves so closely to the ERG and DUP is that she is fundamentally more closely aligned to their instincts. She feels at home with them and has sympathy with their aims.
No otherwise we would be leaving with No Deal on Friday
Then why does she exclusively attempt to win them over to the exclusion of all others?
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
From everything I have read, May won't do that. Lets assume MV3 goes down. Lets further assume that (as an example) Common Market 2.0 emerges as the acceptable to parliament compromise. As Liam Fux pointed out, the government does not have to act on that recommendation.
Because what penalty does it face? A motion of contempt? Which means what - they were held in contempt last time and nothing happened.
The Banter Heuristic dictates that Theresa May would be individually held in contempt of Parliament and barred from the House for 14 days, thereby triggering a recall petition, eagerly signed by the 11.65% of Maidenhead constituents who have already signed the Revoke petition. A local resident, Mr Uri Geller, stands in the by-election for the Unicorn Fellatio Party and is swept to power in an outpouring of spoon-bending fervour.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
Boris has apparently been dropping hints that he and his gang will vote for Theresa's deal provided that she offers her head on a pike.
The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.
So if we had a system where an MP would take their seat for a day then be replaced through some non-democratic system immediately afterwards, that would be fine?
Not at all. Nor have I advocated it nor even intimated it anywhere in what I have written.
If MV3 fails tomorrow and indicative votes on Wednesday show a majority for BINO e.g. permanent Customs Union and/or Single Market then May could call a snap general election on her Deal or BINO with Corbyn
From everything I have read, May won't do that. Lets assume MV3 goes down. Lets further assume that (as an example) Common Market 2.0 emerges as the acceptable to parliament compromise. As Liam Fux pointed out, the government does not have to act on that recommendation.
Because what penalty does it face? A motion of contempt? Which means what - they were held in contempt last time and nothing happened.
The Banter Heuristic dictates that Theresa May would be individually held in contempt of Parliament and barred from the House for 14 days, thereby triggering a recall petition, eagerly signed by the 11.65% of Maidenhead constituents who have already signed the Revoke petition. A local resident, Mr Uri Geller, stands in the by-election for the Unicorn Fellatio Party and is swept to power in an outpouring of spoon-bending fervour.
I really should stop drinking at lunchtime.
I believe what you are describing there is Boris Johnson's regular dream.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
When push has come to shove MPs have consistently failed to take responsibility. I see no reason why that will change today. My guess is that it will fail by a bigger margin than last time.
Just a thought; if she loses MV3 by a BIGGER majority , what then?
Then we're in the soup.
Really? I think the sooner everyone gives up on the dead deal and moves on, the better.
That would be a fair point if there were anything half-way sane to move on to, but there isn't.
Norway would be at least half-way sane.
Fine, agree the deal and go for Norway. There's two years to negotiate accession to EFTA and the EEA, and agree terms with the EU.
Yes, most of the so-called alternatives to the Withdrawal Agreement require the Withdrawal Agreement.
I despair.
Exactly, whatever we do in future we do need to negotiate our exit from the EU. Even "no deal" crashing out is misleadingly named, as in reality there are loads of small contingency deals already negotiated. The only situation where the WA or something very similar isn't needed is if we Remain.
The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.
So if we had a system where an MP would take their seat for a day then be replaced through some non-democratic system immediately afterwards, that would be fine?
Not at all. Nor have I advocated it nor even intimated it anywhere in what I have written.
Okay. So it's not just them taking their seat which is required to respect the vote then, is it? It's them remaining in their seat through the term they were elected for.
Just had a look at the BBC site to see if there was anything new and found this: 'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly. The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
Just had a look at the BBC site to see if there was anything new and found this: 'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly. The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
What's the point in having pilots if they can't tell where the auto-pilot is flying the plane?
The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.
Well you might have maintained it but I think it is accepted that an individual MP is elected "on his/her(/their?) party's manifesto".
If that were the case then about 80% of the current lot would be out on their ear. But more seriously, whatever the public perception, legally what I have said is correct. We vote for individual MPs not for parties.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
When push has come to shove MPs have consistently failed to take responsibility. I see no reason why that will change today. My guess is that it will fail by a bigger margin than last time.
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
When push has come to shove MPs have consistently failed to take responsibility. I see no reason why that will change today. My guess is that it will fail by a bigger margin than last time.
Well, I wouldn't be shocked, but if I had to guess I'd expect it to pass. I don't see why MPs who previously wanted to take responsibility would suddenly decide not to today.
On MV3, I think there's a very good chance it won't even happen. It passing seems very unlikely
If she does then we need a plan b, and we need it quick. Otherwise we have to assume that government policy is no-deal, which would be terrible.
We need seriously to consider the possibility that Theresa has been driven mad by her ERG tormentors and intends to orchestrate No Deal in order to take them down with her.
Or. Possibly, the reason she cleaves so closely to the ERG and DUP is that she is fundamentally more closely aligned to their instincts. She feels at home with them and has sympathy with their aims.
No otherwise we would be leaving with No Deal on Friday
Then why does she exclusively attempt to win them over to the exclusion of all others?
May deep down probably knows a different play is required but is pathologically incapable of making one.
So, she does her existing one more regularly: pretend to listen but act non-committaly to everyone before bouncing them all.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
Have you been drinking?
A meeting of the ERG would be like the bar scene in Star Wars.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
Have you been drinking?
Not yet!
Drinking on a mindful of despair is not a recipe for success.
The difference as I see it - and I do recognise my purist view is not shared by many - is that at a GE we do not vote for any individual policy, we vote for an individual representative. As long as that representative is allowed to take their seat in Parliament the contract with the electorate has been fulfilled. If subsequently there is a recall and a new vote because the MP turns out to be unfit to hold office it is not a problem as the original vote was respected.
In the referendum we voted for a particular policy. Until such times as that policy is enacted we have not fulfilled the contract. As I keep repeating (ad nauseum I know) democracy is not just about asking a question, it is about abiding by the answer.
Once we have left then it would clearly be ridiculous to refuse another referendum if that is what is wanted. And if Remain won then we would be duty bound to rejoin the EU under whatever conditions they ask before asking the public again.
Hmm. We vote for individuals yes, but we do so in order for them to enact a set of promises which have been described in a manifesto.
And of course your "as long as they take their seat in parliament" point counters any criticism of remain-inclined MPs in Leave constituencies.
No, it counters any legitimate cause to remove them before they have served their term. It does not counter any criticism of them for dishonesty if they promised to abide by the referendum to get elected (eg Soubry) .
Yes criticise away very happy with that. Equally, the point about the manifesto still stands. You are in effect saying that unless and until every manifesto promise is enacted we shouldn't have another GE.
No I a really not because I have always maintained we elect individual MPs not parties. As such as long as the elected MP can take their seat the contract has been fulfilled.
Well you might have maintained it but I think it is accepted that an individual MP is elected "on his/her(/their?) party's manifesto".
If that were the case then about 80% of the current lot would be out on their ear. But more seriously, whatever the public perception, legally what I have said is correct. We vote for individual MPs not for parties.
You're including MPs who were reelected after voting against invoking Article 50 in your 80%.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
I think Mark Francois is rather hoping that a bit of good old wartime type rationing might be the one diet that stops him looking like the Brexiteer that ate all the pies
May will still be arguing the one final heave strategy after we have crashed out and after she has had the Stewardship of the manor of Northstead imposed upon her
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!
Who with talent becomes an MP now?
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.
Just had a look at the BBC site to see if there was anything new and found this: 'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly. The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
What's the point in having pilots if they can't tell where the auto-pilot is flying the plane?
The pilots plan was to fly the plane to Edinburgh, it's the passengers who thought they were going to Düsseldorf.
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
When push has come to shove MPs have consistently failed to take responsibility. I see no reason why that will change today. My guess is that it will fail by a bigger margin than last time.
Most MPs didn’t become MPs to take responsibility.
They became MPs because their egos demanded they a big public profile whilst parroting the latest political fashions and playing to their audience.
I'm not at all certain, but given how close it was last time, it doesn't seem so far-fetched that there will be more no -> yes switchers than the other way around.
When push has come to shove MPs have consistently failed to take responsibility. I see no reason why that will change today. My guess is that it will fail by a bigger margin than last time.
Most MPs didn’t become MPs to take responsibility.
They became MPs because their egos demanded they a big public profile whilst parroting the latest political fashions and playing to their audience.
Just had a look at the BBC site to see if there was anything new and found this: 'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly. The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
The good news is that their luggage will have arrived in Dusseldorf
Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
Anyway, it will be No Deal on April 12th. Why? Our MPs and government are numpties and are not using the time granted by the EU to do something useful.
A further long can kick I think, with a very angry EU.
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!
Who with talent becomes an MP now?
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
I think it will go through. I can't see the Boles/Letwin thing passing and that really leaves sane MPs with one option after that. I think there must be 320 sane MPs, mustn't there?
You'd think so - but then up pops Mark Francois or some other loon again on the radio.
320 sane MPs leaves 310 profoundly stupid ones!
Who with talent becomes an MP now?
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.
There are quite a number of very talented individuals. Many of whom are individually minded so therefore are not on the frontbenches of either of the two main parties. Our party political system is broken. The cream no longer rises to the top, it is homogenised so as to become indistinguishable from the sour old curds that are favoured by the party faithful. Corbyn and May are the end result of this, and the Brexit fiasco the concomitant allergic reaction.
Comments
I bet there isn't.
Because what penalty does it face? A motion of contempt? Which means what - they were held in contempt last time and nothing happened. A vote of no confidence? Wouldn't pass with ERG nutters cuddling her tight running down the clock to crash day. A "you must go Prime Minister" deputation from Graham Brady? Armed with what power when the party rules state clearly that he cannot make her go.
If - as seems to be suggested - she has decided that No Deal Brexit is the price worth paying to preserve the Conservative Party, then I do not see how she is stopped. Short of the powers that be having her physically removed on "medical grounds"
NOTHING HAS CHANGED
I'd laugh and laugh and laugh
I can also see the WA being uncoupled from the PD and passed - then a post Brexit GE under a new Tory leader with the winner of that GE running with the Future Relationship.
All in all, a GE in 2019 is still IMO a value bet even now at 2.2 (it was 2.8 not so long ago).
EDIT: But there is always MV4.
This is totally standard in China and they already have systems that watch their citizens in this manner.
I bet loads of peoples reaction will be how cool is this, it's like my iPhone face unlock, not the fact your data is likely be shared widely.
Yes it is all about the future relationship
Yes, bonkers but then I have a touching faith in my fellow person.
'A British Airways flight destined for Dusseldorf in Germany has landed in Edinburgh by mistake, after the flight paperwork was submitted incorrectly.
The passengers only realised the error when the plane landed and the "welcome to Edinburgh" announcement was made.'
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1110136361313583105
And I could see them winning on that platform.
I despair.
Doesn't look like all combinations of above are possible.
I really should stop drinking at lunchtime.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/mar/25/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-chairs-cabinet-ahead-of-statement-to-mps-as-calls-for-her-resignation-continue-live-news?page=with:block-5c98b7bbe4b0a5422e63b0ee#block-5c98b7bbe4b0a5422e63b0ee
Doesn't seem particularly principled to me - wasn't the deal supposed to be morally irredeemable? - but if true perhaps gives room for hope.
On MV3, I think there's a very good chance it won't even happen. It passing seems very unlikely
So, she does her existing one more regularly: pretend to listen but act non-committaly to everyone before bouncing them all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDpDhofRoXA
Drinking on a mindful of despair is not a recipe for success.
Just not the DUP.....
It’s a career choice now for those who are quite interested in politics at university and want to stay “in the business” thereafter.
75ish ERGers who will vote against any ongoing relationship with Europe.
250ish remainers who will block any deal, thus running severe risk of no-deal
+various others with incompatible red lines, personal vendettas, cheap politics, and so on.
Mission impossible for anyone.
The vote may be on , or it may not be. Or it might yet be or it might not.
Those looking for certainty at any point will be disappointed.
They became MPs because their egos demanded they a big public profile whilst parroting the latest political fashions and playing to their audience.
The news at one just announces that the UK's biggest fraud trial is starting today. Really, I think. I wonder which one that is.
Oh no - it turns out that it is not a trial at all but the civil case between Autonomy (Mike Lynch) and HP.
How difficult it is for a journalist to understand the difference between a criminal trial and a civil case? This is basic stuff.
(This complaint is completely unconnected with the fact that the UK's biggest fraud trial was the one I handled.)
meanwhile the Vicar of Bath versus kezia rumbles on
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-47693895
If she was serious, she would sack them...
She needs every vote.
No deal or never ending purgatory of extensions.
I think the latter will cause more uncertainty and do more damage ultimately.
No-one wants No Deal.
No deal is a viable option just not an ideal one.
having protested aginst customs checks and disparaging online processing for RoI to NI trade, the RoI decides to go for customs checks and online processing for trade NI to RoI
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/central-part-of-government-s-brexit-strategy-off-the-table-in-no-deal-scenario-1.3837760
Will it be offered ? Who knows ?
Normal rules have gone out the window.
Mrs May has until Friday I suspect to get something done or she is out.
But then we thought that for the last 3 weeks..